is not the apt comparison between counterspell and distress? Both 1 for 1 that are timing restricted at the same cost and unconditional?
No, and it's the same reason why U: counter, you lose 2 life is too good. With distress, you're spending mana to 1-for-1. With counterspell, you're spending 2 to 1-for-1 AND making your opponent waste the mana spent to cast it. A better example would be Distress vs Cancel, both of those are at a similar power level and are unplayable. Going by that standard, UU, pay 2 life: counter target spell is the best we could get. Actually, I could see them printing that card with a cost of UB which would be great for esper/grixis players.
Abrupt Decay doesn't need to be banned. It is very good, but it can be beaten with speed aka quick Aggro. Now you may say that quick Aggro is non-existent, but consider this. Abrupt Decay in Standard is merely okay vs. decks like Mono Red Aggro (Tom Ross style), Mono Blue, or GW Aggro. They simply are too fast for it to matter too much and very few threats are that much more important than others.
Besides, I like my chances with GW Bogle is Abrupt Decay is gone (hint; it's already a good matchup).
1UU does already exist. It is in Innistrad. I can't remember the name, but it was played in those "new Solar Flare" (and I use the term VERY loosely) lists.Dissipate. And I saw a comment about Mana Leak. Mana Leak is amazing; it's probably nearly playable in Legacy. Okay, I just remembered that there is a slight difference on Dissipate, in that it has to be countered to be exiled. But I still believe that even with a new card like that, it wouldn't see much play.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Abrupt Decay doesn't need to be banned. It is very good, but it can be beaten with speed aka quick Aggro. Now you may say that quick Aggro is non-existent, but consider this. Abrupt Decay in Standard is merely okay vs. decks like Mono Red Aggro (Tom Ross style), Mono Blue, or GW Aggro. They simply are too fast for it to matter too much and very few threats are that much more important than others.
Besides, I like my chances with GW Bogle is Abrupt Decay is gone (hint; it's already a good matchup).
1UU does already exist. It is in Innistrad. I can't remember the name, but it was played in those "new Solar Flare" (and I use the term VERY loosely) lists.Dissipate. And I saw a comment about Mana Leak. Mana Leak is amazing; it's probably nearly playable in Legacy. Okay, I just remembered that there is a slight difference on Dissipate, in that it has to be countered to be exiled. But I still believe that even with a new card like that, it wouldn't see much play.
Abrupt decay is the perfect example if why blue control players are annoyed in modern. BG gets a broad, uncounterable, maindeckable answer to *almost* every problem permanent in the format, yet blue can't have anything similar?
Counterspells require you to leave mana up and not do much on your turn to be able to interact with your opponent during theirs. It is also simply trading one-for-one when you counter a spell of theirs. How is this overpowered and without drawbacks? I feel like a lot of your posts are just grounded in irrational hate towards blue.
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Abrupt Decay doesn't need to be banned. It is very good, but it can be beaten with speed aka quick Aggro. Now you may say that quick Aggro is non-existent, but consider this. Abrupt Decay in Standard is merely okay vs. decks like Mono Red Aggro (Tom Ross style), Mono Blue, or GW Aggro. They simply are too fast for it to matter too much and very few threats are that much more important than others.
Besides, I like my chances with GW Bogle is Abrupt Decay is gone (hint; it's already a good matchup).
1UU does already exist. It is in Innistrad. I can't remember the name, but it was played in those "new Solar Flare" (and I use the term VERY loosely) lists.Dissipate. And I saw a comment about Mana Leak. Mana Leak is amazing; it's probably nearly playable in Legacy. Okay, I just remembered that there is a slight difference on Dissipate, in that it has to be countered to be exiled. But I still believe that even with a new card like that, it wouldn't see much play.
Abrupt decay is the perfect example if why blue control players are annoyed in modern. BG gets a broad, uncounterable, maindeckable answer to *almost* every problem permanent in the format, yet blue can't have anything similar?
Hello spell snare. Hits every 2 mana costed spell for 1 blue mana. Hits goyf, bob, scooze, skite, leak, charms, Lords, GftT, and many others. People say oh its limited but it covers so much stuff that is used. And that is just one of many viable counters blue has access to, not to mention bounce spells. Blue has no business complaining about AD or anything for that matter. This is nonsensical. I mean Mana Leak is solid through 5 turns too. And there's CC, likely the best control card ever printed. Nah blue is fine. In fact, if the Johnnies didn't have to go and break all the awesome card draw, blue would be the apex color by a mile.
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Abrupt decay is the perfect example if why blue control players are annoyed in modern. BG gets a broad, uncounterable, maindeckable answer to *almost* every problem permanent in the format, yet blue can't have anything similar?
I am a "Blue" player normally, although I have adapted in recent years. I did have a big problem with Abrupt Decay when it was printed. I was pretty upset to say the least. But, I have gotten used to it and it's not the end of the world. It also was a necessity for Counterbalance in Legacy.
In Modern, Control is just supposed to control the board with instants until they can start dropping a win-con. This is the way I always loved playing Control; Cruel Ultimatum, Baneslayer Angel, etc. Besides in UWR, what other than SCM, which has done his job by then anyway, is killed by Abrupt Decay?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Abrupt decay is the perfect example if why blue control players are annoyed in modern. BG gets a broad, uncounterable, maindeckable answer to *almost* every problem permanent in the format, yet blue can't have anything similar?
I am a "Blue" player normally, although I have adapted in recent years. I did have a big problem with Abrupt Decay when it was printed. I was pretty upset to say the least. But, I have gotten used to it and it's not the end of the world. It also was a necessity for Counterbalance in Legacy.
In Modern, Control is just supposed to control the board with instants until they can start dropping a win-con. This is the way I always loved playing Control; Cruel Ultimatum, Baneslayer Angel, etc. Besides in UWR, what other than SCM, which has done his job by then anyway, is killed by Abrupt Decay?
Abrupt Decay doesn't need to be banned. It is very good, but it can be beaten with speed aka quick Aggro. Now you may say that quick Aggro is non-existent, but consider this. Abrupt Decay in Standard is merely okay vs. decks like Mono Red Aggro (Tom Ross style), Mono Blue, or GW Aggro. They simply are too fast for it to matter too much and very few threats are that much more important than others.
Besides, I like my chances with GW Bogle is Abrupt Decay is gone (hint; it's already a good matchup).
1UU does already exist. It is in Innistrad. I can't remember the name, but it was played in those "new Solar Flare" (and I use the term VERY loosely) lists.Dissipate. And I saw a comment about Mana Leak. Mana Leak is amazing; it's probably nearly playable in Legacy. Okay, I just remembered that there is a slight difference on Dissipate, in that it has to be countered to be exiled. But I still believe that even with a new card like that, it wouldn't see much play.
Abrupt decay is the perfect example if why blue control players are annoyed in modern. BG gets a broad, uncounterable, maindeckable answer to *almost* every problem permanent in the format, yet blue can't have anything similar?
Hello spell snare. Hits every 2 mana costed spell for 1 blue mana. Hits goyf, bob, scooze, skite, leak, charms, Lords, GftT, and many others. People say oh its limited but it covers so much stuff that is used. And that is just one of many viable counters blue has access to, not to mention bounce spells. Blue has no business complaining about AD or anything for that matter. This is nonsensical. I mean Mana Leak is solid through 5 turns too. And there's CC, likely the best control card ever printed. Nah blue is fine. In fact, if the Johnnies didn't have to go and break all the awesome card draw, blue would be the apex color by a mile.
Mana Leak is not that good. It's bad in the mirror, against most combo (either being able to play around or using spell snare as a trump), decks with Vial, Zoo / Affinity, etc. It's best use is against Pod and sometimes BGx. Counterspell would certainly be better, but 2CMC counterspells just aren't in a good spot in Modern. I'd much rather have Miscalculation for instance than Counterspell.
Also, spell snare only hits spells on the stack. You can't compare Snare and AD. I would kill for an on-color Abrupt Decay like card for Control. There's two problems right now with control - our answers are very conditional and our draw options are pretty terrible. This is why the best Control deck in Modern turns into a burn deck / tempo deck against a lot of decks. As for bounce spells....what? I don't think you've played much Control. Bounce spells are played as a 1 or 2 of in Combo decks like Scapeshift - they're terrible in a control shell.
As for CC, yes it is very good. It also costs 4.
As for blue being fine....if you like Combo, then sure, but for us Control players blue is pretty weak right now. I mean, without a Red card (Splinter Twin / Grapeshot) or Green Card (Scapeshift), blue would be the weakest color in Modern. I mean, BG players are just in denial. BG has the most efficient cards in the format by a wide mile. They've banned 2 very strong cards and it is still the best color pair in Modern. Yeah....let's complain about blue!!!
Yes, in a field, far away from the argument. The events don't change just because you showed up to dominate.
No, I understand your argument perfectly. You don't believe it's appropriate to play a top tier deck at a casual event, naturally leading to the conclusion that everyone should play subpar decks for casual events. Hence, you prefer people to "play down" to the crowd rather than play what they want. I don't slight anyone for showing up with what they want, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play my super awesome 4 card infinite combo Magic Christmas Land deck for the sake of you winning more games.
Great. Now if we can get back to how casual players can still play modern? Derails within derails.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
Nah I play more tempo than permission control but cards like Vapor Snag, the M15 guy at sorcery speed for one and even boomerang are solid short term solutions. Honestly I don't think WotC wants permission style decks in Modern. Its oppressive similar to ultra fast combo, prison and ld decks.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
You do know counterspells have a natural drawback, right? They're unable to interact with the board (except Cryptic). You don't need an additional drawback attached. Besides, with creatures becoming more efficient and with built in card advantage how else is control supposed to keep pace, when Wizards philosophy has been to neuter to blue card draw? You don't like blue, I like blue. This whole conversation is pointless.
Its not about liking blue or disliking blue, Its about being fair across the board. There is no reason all the other colors have to have draw backs and conditions to playing there hand disruption/removal and blue gets to play unconditional counters with zero drawbacks. That is how blue becomes THE color of a format.
According to you IOK and Thoughtseize have dual draw backs because they can not interact with the board.
Quote from HrishiQQ »
Counterspells require you to leave mana up and not do much on your turn to be able to interact with your opponent during theirs. It is also simply trading one-for-one when you counter a spell of theirs. How is this overpowered and without drawbacks? I feel like a lot of your posts are just grounded in irrational hate towards blue.
Same could be said about IOK and Thoughtseize. You have to sacrifice playing early drops to play hand distruption. Same thing could be said about path, and you give an extra land. The argument you have to play a certain way is the same for all colors and strategies. So it is not an argument at all.
Its not an irrational hate towards blue. Its blue getting unconditional, no draw back spells when all the other colors have to deal with these draw backs and conditions. Blue needs to start playing a fair game, and blue mages are upset to do so.
You do know counterspells have a natural drawback, right? They're unable to interact with the board (except Cryptic). You don't need an additional drawback attached. Besides, with creatures becoming more efficient and with built in card advantage how else is control supposed to keep pace, when Wizards philosophy has been to neuter to blue card draw? You don't like blue, I like blue. This whole conversation is pointless.
Its not about liking blue or disliking blue, Its about being fair across the board. There is no reason all the other colors have to have draw backs and conditions to playing there hand disruption/removal and blue gets to play unconditional counters with zero drawbacks. That is how blue becomes THE color of a format.
According to you IOK and Thoughtseize have dual draw backs because they can not interact with the board.
Quote from HrishiQQ »
Counterspells require you to leave mana up and not do much on your turn to be able to interact with your opponent during theirs. It is also simply trading one-for-one when you counter a spell of theirs. How is this overpowered and without drawbacks? I feel like a lot of your posts are just grounded in irrational hate towards blue.
Same could be said about IOK and Thoughtseize. You have to sacrifice playing early drops to play hand distruption. Same thing could be said about path, and you give an extra land. The argument you have to play a certain way is the same for all colors and strategies. So it is not an argument at all.
Its not an irrational hate towards blue. Its blue getting unconditional, no draw back spells when all the other colors have to deal with these draw backs and conditions. Blue needs to start playing a fair game, and blue mages are upset to do so.
If you think counterspells are unfair you are beyond any rational discussion. Also it's been known for a long time that TS and IoK have those drawbacks. They're terrible top-decks just like counterspells are when you're faced with any board position at all. If you don't think not interacting with the board isn't a drawback...Anyways, it's obvious to everyone that you have an irrational hatred of blue.
You do know counterspells have a natural drawback, right? They're unable to interact with the board (except Cryptic). You don't need an additional drawback attached. Besides, with creatures becoming more efficient and with built in card advantage how else is control supposed to keep pace, when Wizards philosophy has been to neuter to blue card draw? You don't like blue, I like blue. This whole conversation is pointless.
Its not about liking blue or disliking blue, Its about being fair across the board. There is no reason all the other colors have to have draw backs and conditions to playing there hand disruption/removal and blue gets to play unconditional counters with zero drawbacks. That is how blue becomes THE color of a format.
According to you IOK and Thoughtseize have dual draw backs because they can not interact with the board.
Quote from HrishiQQ »
Counterspells require you to leave mana up and not do much on your turn to be able to interact with your opponent during theirs. It is also simply trading one-for-one when you counter a spell of theirs. How is this overpowered and without drawbacks? I feel like a lot of your posts are just grounded in irrational hate towards blue.
Same could be said about IOK and Thoughtseize. You have to sacrifice playing early drops to play hand distruption. Same thing could be said about path, and you give an extra land. The argument you have to play a certain way is the same for all colors and strategies. So it is not an argument at all.
Its not an irrational hate towards blue. Its blue getting unconditional, no draw back spells when all the other colors have to deal with these draw backs and conditions. Blue needs to start playing a fair game, and blue mages are upset to do so.
If you think counterspells are unfair you are beyond any rational discussion. Also it's been known for a long time that TS and IoK have those drawbacks. They're terrible top-decks just like counterspells are when you're faced with any board position at all. If you don't think not interacting with the board isn't a drawback...Anyways, it's obvious to everyone that you have an irrational hatred of blue.
Where did I say counter spells are unfair? I just said counter spells should play by the same rules other colors removal and hand distruption play by. Again, having counter spells without those draw backs would tilt the format toward blue. Look at the number of 2 mana counter spells there are in Modern, but they are not good enough because they have conditions or draw backs to them.
By the way, I dont hate any color. I just think all the colors should play fair
This whole discussion came about because some feel there are not the tools for blue control to thrive in Modern. I said there is. The blue mage from 10 years ago, and use to the blue spells of 10 years ago need to change their thinking and start brewing to make the counters available to you work.
When you ask most control/blue mages they want a counter that doesnt only unconditionally counter a spell, but give them a positive bonus on top of it. The thinking is the thinking that is hurting blue control in Modern.
I want to know by what meter you are saying cards are terrible. Have you tried them in Modern or are you looking at Legacy or Standard performances or metas from 5 or 10 years ago and not giving cards a chance in Modern?
Same could be said about IOK and Thoughtseize. You have to sacrifice playing early drops to play hand distruption. Same thing could be said about path, and you give an extra land. The argument you have to play a certain way is the same for all colors and strategies. So it is not an argument at all.
Its not an irrational hate towards blue. Its blue getting unconditional, no draw back spells when all the other colors have to deal with these draw backs and conditions. Blue needs to start playing a fair game, and blue mages are upset to do so.
And the same is said for Thoughtseize and IOK. I never said they had no disadvantages. I just said counterspell had them too, whereas you are implying that hard counterspells are "too good". I cannot have a reasonable discussion with someone who believes that hard counterspells are unfair. You have to realize that you are NOT furthering your own board state in order to hold mana up to interact with your opponent and hope you can stop what they do (notice that I said hope you can stop them, what if they counter you back and you essentially wasted a turn?). How do you not see this as a disadvantage?
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Same could be said about IOK and Thoughtseize. You have to sacrifice playing early drops to play hand distruption. Same thing could be said about path, and you give an extra land. The argument you have to play a certain way is the same for all colors and strategies. So it is not an argument at all.
Its not an irrational hate towards blue. Its blue getting unconditional, no draw back spells when all the other colors have to deal with these draw backs and conditions. Blue needs to start playing a fair game, and blue mages are upset to do so.
And the same is said for Thoughtseize and IOK. I never said they had no disadvantages. I just said counterspell had them too, whereas you are implying that hard counterspells are "too good". I cannot have a reasonable discussion with someone who believes that hard counterspells are unfair. You have to realize that you are NOT furthering your own board state in order to hold mana up to interact with your opponent and hope you can stop what they do (notice that I said hope you can stop them, what if they counter you back and you essentially wasted a turn?). How do you not see this as a disadvantage?
Okay, lets walk thru this.
Turn 1, I drop a swamp and pay 2 life and play seize. I am at 18 have zero board postion and gave up playing an early drop. My opponent is down a card, and I am behind in the game, turn 1.
On turn 2, you hold up mana to counter my spell. You didnt take any life, there was no draw back such as life loss. (Some want added bonus from counters) and your opponent is a card down.
The counter player is ahead in life total, card advantage is even.
I dont believe counter spells are unfair. I think unconditional counter spells with no draw backs are unfair. To claim you have to play different because you are playing control and those counter spells is not an argument.
A deck playing IOK or seize is not furthering their board state, yet there are draw backs and/or conditions to those spells.
Path is not furthering your own board state, you are helping your opponent with an extra land drop (a draw back to the spell)
Abrupt Decay has a limitation of a 3 mana spell it can destroy (a draw back) but some say the uncounterable nullifies that draw back.
2 mana black removal has all kinds of restrictions from cant be an artifact, to cant be multicolored.
Like I have said, Wotc has changed their design plan, that includes blue. There are numerous 2 mana hard counters in the format with draw backs or conditions, the problem is the old school blue mage, who has written off those spells refuses to rethink their play style and look at those spells they have written off.
I dont have a problem with hard counters. I have a big problem with hard counters with no conditions or draw backs. Having to hold up mana is not a draw back, its a choice. Just like black mages playing hand disruption instead of advancing their board. Blue control is not the only play style that has to hold up mana for what ever the reason. Blue is not the only color that sacrifices board state to do other things.
If control, especially blue control, is to start thriving in Modern, the player base needs to change its mentality. This is not Legacy, this is not 10 years ago when draw go was good. Modern has stopped supporting draw go type control in Standard a while a go.
UWR control is draw go in that it is made up entirely of instants and flash creatures. Every turn it draws a card, plays a land, and says go. It is entirely reactive until they decide to start setting you on fire. The traditional draw go of counter everything you play for eternity however is dead, buried, and never coming back. If blue control is to thrive it has nothing at all to do with the mind set of players. We could all be celebrating "thank god that mana leak is the go to 2 mana counter spell and that all is fair and just in the world" and that would change nothing. Pure control decks still need help to be more diverse and reliable in the late game, which is where they're supposed to thrive. Mana leak is just fine, our card advantage and win condition options however are far from just fine.
EDIT: I just wanted to point out that I am 90% happy with the counter magic available in modern. The only thing I'd like to see is another option for a hard, unconditional counter that can be played main deck outside of counterflux. Either something super awesome at 1UU or double blue and another color to help with color diversity in control lists. Absorb would be perfect, dromar's charm would make me dreamy, but literal counterspell is too good.
We're drifting into the wrong topic here. If you all want to talk about Counterspell in Modern there is a separate topic for that. I'd rather have an unban of Sword or AV to help out control. I think Sword would be better since it wouldn't just slot right into UWR like AV would. And can we please have an unban on GGT for god sakes? It has absolutely no business being on the banned list. It would not make a single difference in the metagame.
Do not know why but just have a gut feeling that they will be.
Unless the deck gets out of control, I don't think they are ever going to ban Birthing Pod. If they ever want to try and weaken the deck, they will probably ban Chord of Calling first, then if that doesn't do enough ban Pod. However, right now Pod decks are solidly Tier 1 but nowhere close to dominant in the metagame.
Splinter Twin isn't getting banned in the near future either, and for the same reason (Tier 1, but not dominant). However, if the deck does ever become too good, I'm pretty sure that unlike Pod, Twin would be the card that gets the banhammer.
Basically, the meta is in a good place right now, and nothing needs to get banned.
I wonder if anybody would be willing to make a gentleman's wager. I bet that of all the cards currently legal in modern, M15 core set and back, that the next card that is going to be banned is snapcaster mage. With every set release I dreadfully look at the B&R announcement expecting to see him up there with 4 paragraphs of nonsense about how blue is too strong, immediately after an abrupt decay deck wins the most recent large modern event of course. It feels a little weird betting against myself, but I'm certain that he's going to be taken out in foreseeable future.
Any takers?
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Abrupt decay is the perfect example if why blue control players are annoyed in modern. BG gets a broad, uncounterable, maindeckable answer to *almost* every problem permanent in the format, yet blue can't have anything similar?
I am a "Blue" player normally, although I have adapted in recent years. I did have a big problem with Abrupt Decay when it was printed. I was pretty upset to say the least. But, I have gotten used to it and it's not the end of the world. It also was a necessity for Counterbalance in Legacy.
In Modern, Control is just supposed to control the board with instants until they can start dropping a win-con. This is the way I always loved playing Control; Cruel Ultimatum, Baneslayer Angel, etc. Besides in UWR, what other than SCM, which has done his job by then anyway, is killed by Abrupt Decay?
The real annoying thing about Abrupt Decay is how good it is against Blue Moon. Vedalken Shackles and Blood Moon would both be much stronger if it wasn't legal.
Nah I play more tempo than permission control but cards like Vapor Snag, the M15 guy at sorcery speed for one and even boomerang are solid short term solutions. Honestly I don't think WotC wants permission style decks in Modern. Its oppressive similar to ultra fast combo, prison and ld decks.
A) They have a minimum standard to expect a few decks of each archetype (3-4ish) (Combo, Aggro, Aggro-Control, Control)[Giving a total of 12 top tier decks] - They are disappointed they have not met this standard.
See this? They want at least 3 good Control-Control decks to be in the format. And other than permission decks and prison decks, there are no other kinds of Control.
You do know counterspells have a natural drawback, right? They're unable to interact with the board (except Cryptic). You don't need an additional drawback attached. Besides, with creatures becoming more efficient and with built in card advantage how else is control supposed to keep pace, when Wizards philosophy has been to neuter to blue card draw? You don't like blue, I like blue. This whole conversation is pointless.
Its not about liking blue or disliking blue, Its about being fair across the board. There is no reason all the other colors have to have draw backs and conditions to playing there hand disruption/removal and blue gets to play unconditional counters with zero drawbacks. That is how blue becomes THE color of a format.
According to you IOK and Thoughtseize have dual draw backs because they can not interact with the board.
Quote from HrishiQQ »
Counterspells require you to leave mana up and not do much on your turn to be able to interact with your opponent during theirs. It is also simply trading one-for-one when you counter a spell of theirs. How is this overpowered and without drawbacks? I feel like a lot of your posts are just grounded in irrational hate towards blue.
Same could be said about IOK and Thoughtseize. You have to sacrifice playing early drops to play hand distruption. Same thing could be said about path, and you give an extra land. The argument you have to play a certain way is the same for all colors and strategies. So it is not an argument at all.
Its not an irrational hate towards blue. Its blue getting unconditional, no draw back spells when all the other colors have to deal with these draw backs and conditions. Blue needs to start playing a fair game, and blue mages are upset to do so.
I am fine with Blue playing a fair game, except for one thing. Control and Tempo are at a major disadvantage in this format. So why should archetype diversity have to suffer just because it would make a single color a little bit better than the rest? Also, if BGx can get those unconditional answers, blue should be able to get them too.
You do know counterspells have a natural drawback, right? They're unable to interact with the board (except Cryptic). You don't need an additional drawback attached. Besides, with creatures becoming more efficient and with built in card advantage how else is control supposed to keep pace, when Wizards philosophy has been to neuter to blue card draw? You don't like blue, I like blue. This whole conversation is pointless.
Its not about liking blue or disliking blue, Its about being fair across the board. There is no reason all the other colors have to have draw backs and conditions to playing there hand disruption/removal and blue gets to play unconditional counters with zero drawbacks. That is how blue becomes THE color of a format.
According to you IOK and Thoughtseize have dual draw backs because they can not interact with the board.
Quote from HrishiQQ »
Counterspells require you to leave mana up and not do much on your turn to be able to interact with your opponent during theirs. It is also simply trading one-for-one when you counter a spell of theirs. How is this overpowered and without drawbacks? I feel like a lot of your posts are just grounded in irrational hate towards blue.
Same could be said about IOK and Thoughtseize. You have to sacrifice playing early drops to play hand distruption. Same thing could be said about path, and you give an extra land. The argument you have to play a certain way is the same for all colors and strategies. So it is not an argument at all.
Its not an irrational hate towards blue. Its blue getting unconditional, no draw back spells when all the other colors have to deal with these draw backs and conditions. Blue needs to start playing a fair game, and blue mages are upset to do so.
If you think counterspells are unfair you are beyond any rational discussion. Also it's been known for a long time that TS and IoK have those drawbacks. They're terrible top-decks just like counterspells are when you're faced with any board position at all. If you don't think not interacting with the board isn't a drawback...Anyways, it's obvious to everyone that you have an irrational hatred of blue.
Where did I say counter spells are unfair? I just said counter spells should play by the same rules other colors removal and hand distruption play by. Again, having counter spells without those draw backs would tilt the format toward blue. Look at the number of 2 mana counter spells there are in Modern, but they are not good enough because they have conditions or draw backs to them.
And how is them not being good enough a good thing?
By the way, I dont hate any color. I just think all the colors should play fair
This is Modern. It isn't fair. And if BG is going to get their unconditional answers, U should get some too.
This whole discussion came about because some feel there are not the tools for blue control to thrive in Modern. I said there is. The blue mage from 10 years ago, and use to the blue spells of 10 years ago need to change their thinking and start brewing to make the counters available to you work.
Yes, there are the tools for it to be succesful. However, I'd say that thrive is stretching it.
When you ask most control/blue mages they want a counter that doesnt only unconditionally counter a spell, but give them a positive bonus on top of it. The thinking is the thinking that is hurting blue control in Modern.
I personally just want Counterspell, Memory Lapse, and Dismiss. And Dismiss is just because I want a budget Cryptic Command. So of the 2 that I want for the format, one of them is just an unconditional counter and the other is variable.
I want to know by what meter you are saying cards are terrible. Have you tried them in Modern or are you looking at Legacy or Standard performances or metas from 5 or 10 years ago and not giving cards a chance in Modern?
While I agree that there is some untapped potential in counterspells in Modern (specifically in Condescend, Deprive, and Izzet Charm), Mana Leak is a pretty terrible late-game topdeck.
I wonder if anybody would be willing to make a gentleman's wager. I bet that of all the cards currently legal in modern, M15 core set and back, that the next card that is going to be banned is snapcaster mage. With every set release I dreadfully look at the B&R announcement expecting to see him up there with 4 paragraphs of nonsense about how blue is too strong, immediately after an abrupt decay deck wins the most recent large modern event of course. It feels a little weird betting against myself, but I'm certain that he's going to be taken out in foreseeable future.
Any takers?
Can't we just hope for no bans in general right now?
The real annoying thing about Abrupt Decay is how good it is against Blue Moon. Vedalken Shackles and Blood Moon would both be much stronger if it wasn't legal.
I can see that. But I feel that cards like Blood Moon and Vedalken Shackles (I know they're not played much) are very strong cards that make some strategies nearly unplayable. I feel like Wizards doesn't want to see cards like Blood Moon have even half the impact a card like Birthing Pod does on the format. I know that Blue Moon is a deck that can do very well vs. some decks and I think that's as far as Wizards wants to go with non basic land hate in Modern. I feel like if there was no Abrupt Decay, it would be too easy to put some hurt on BGx decks (read, Goyf/Bob) with Shackles.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I am fine with Blue playing a fair game, except for one thing. Control and Tempo are at a major disadvantage in this format. So why should archetype diversity have to suffer just because it would make a single color a little bit better than the rest? Also, if BGx can get those unconditional answers, blue should be able to get them too.
This is Modern. It isn't fair. And if BG is going to get their unconditional answers, U should get some too.
There is one removal spell in some BGx decks that has zero draw backs or conditions on it, one.
And how is them not being good enough a good thing?
It was late and the discussion had been going on for a bit, bad wording on my part. I meant that the only reason they seem bad is because they were bad in the past, in other formats. Because of that some dont wish to try things already found lacking in other formats. In short, the only reason they are seen as bad is relative.
I personally just want Counterspell, Memory Lapse, and Dismiss. And Dismiss is just because I want a budget Cryptic Command. So of the 2 that I want for the format, one of them is just an unconditional counter and the other is variable.
All of them have zero draw backs or conditions for the blue player and two of them give the blue player a bonus for playing them. How is that fair? Blue should not get special treatment and better toys then everyone else. Like I said, there are plenty of fair 2 mana blue counters in this format.
Quote from stokpile »
I wonder if anybody would be willing to make a gentleman's wager. I bet that of all the cards currently legal in modern, M15 core set and back, that the next card that is going to be banned is snapcaster mage. With every set release I dreadfully look at the B&R announcement expecting to see him up there with 4 paragraphs of nonsense about how blue is too strong, immediately after an abrupt decay deck wins the most recent large modern event of course. It feels a little weird betting against myself, but I'm certain that he's going to be taken out in foreseeable future.
Any takers?
I dont think so. Something drastic would have to happen in the format and the meta to make Wotc want/need to ban Snapcaster.
Quote from Deadkitten »
Abrupt Decay is 2 colors. Why should any single color get a card at the same power level of a multi-colored card?
To be fair it doesnt matter in Modern. You can hit green black on turn 2, just as easy as you can hit double blue.
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No, and it's the same reason why U: counter, you lose 2 life is too good. With distress, you're spending mana to 1-for-1. With counterspell, you're spending 2 to 1-for-1 AND making your opponent waste the mana spent to cast it. A better example would be Distress vs Cancel, both of those are at a similar power level and are unplayable. Going by that standard, UU, pay 2 life: counter target spell is the best we could get. Actually, I could see them printing that card with a cost of UB which would be great for esper/grixis players.
Besides, I like my chances with GW Bogle is Abrupt Decay is gone (hint; it's already a good matchup).
1UU does already exist. It is in Innistrad.
I can't remember the name, but it was played in those "new Solar Flare" (and I use the term VERY loosely) lists.Dissipate. And I saw a comment about Mana Leak. Mana Leak is amazing; it's probably nearly playable in Legacy. Okay, I just remembered that there is a slight difference on Dissipate, in that it has to be countered to be exiled. But I still believe that even with a new card like that, it wouldn't see much play.Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Abrupt decay is the perfect example if why blue control players are annoyed in modern. BG gets a broad, uncounterable, maindeckable answer to *almost* every problem permanent in the format, yet blue can't have anything similar?
Hello spell snare. Hits every 2 mana costed spell for 1 blue mana. Hits goyf, bob, scooze, skite, leak, charms, Lords, GftT, and many others. People say oh its limited but it covers so much stuff that is used. And that is just one of many viable counters blue has access to, not to mention bounce spells. Blue has no business complaining about AD or anything for that matter. This is nonsensical. I mean Mana Leak is solid through 5 turns too. And there's CC, likely the best control card ever printed. Nah blue is fine. In fact, if the Johnnies didn't have to go and break all the awesome card draw, blue would be the apex color by a mile.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I am a "Blue" player normally, although I have adapted in recent years. I did have a big problem with Abrupt Decay when it was printed. I was pretty upset to say the least. But, I have gotten used to it and it's not the end of the world. It also was a necessity for Counterbalance in Legacy.
In Modern, Control is just supposed to control the board with instants until they can start dropping a win-con. This is the way I always loved playing Control; Cruel Ultimatum, Baneslayer Angel, etc. Besides in UWR, what other than SCM, which has done his job by then anyway, is killed by Abrupt Decay?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)My lovely shackles
Mana Leak is not that good. It's bad in the mirror, against most combo (either being able to play around or using spell snare as a trump), decks with Vial, Zoo / Affinity, etc. It's best use is against Pod and sometimes BGx. Counterspell would certainly be better, but 2CMC counterspells just aren't in a good spot in Modern. I'd much rather have Miscalculation for instance than Counterspell.
Also, spell snare only hits spells on the stack. You can't compare Snare and AD. I would kill for an on-color Abrupt Decay like card for Control. There's two problems right now with control - our answers are very conditional and our draw options are pretty terrible. This is why the best Control deck in Modern turns into a burn deck / tempo deck against a lot of decks. As for bounce spells....what? I don't think you've played much Control. Bounce spells are played as a 1 or 2 of in Combo decks like Scapeshift - they're terrible in a control shell.
As for CC, yes it is very good. It also costs 4.
As for blue being fine....if you like Combo, then sure, but for us Control players blue is pretty weak right now. I mean, without a Red card (Splinter Twin / Grapeshot) or Green Card (Scapeshift), blue would be the weakest color in Modern. I mean, BG players are just in denial. BG has the most efficient cards in the format by a wide mile. They've banned 2 very strong cards and it is still the best color pair in Modern. Yeah....let's complain about blue!!!
Great. Now if we can get back to how casual players can still play modern? Derails within derails.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Its not about liking blue or disliking blue, Its about being fair across the board. There is no reason all the other colors have to have draw backs and conditions to playing there hand disruption/removal and blue gets to play unconditional counters with zero drawbacks. That is how blue becomes THE color of a format.
According to you IOK and Thoughtseize have dual draw backs because they can not interact with the board.
Same could be said about IOK and Thoughtseize. You have to sacrifice playing early drops to play hand distruption. Same thing could be said about path, and you give an extra land. The argument you have to play a certain way is the same for all colors and strategies. So it is not an argument at all.
Its not an irrational hate towards blue. Its blue getting unconditional, no draw back spells when all the other colors have to deal with these draw backs and conditions. Blue needs to start playing a fair game, and blue mages are upset to do so.
If you think counterspells are unfair you are beyond any rational discussion. Also it's been known for a long time that TS and IoK have those drawbacks. They're terrible top-decks just like counterspells are when you're faced with any board position at all. If you don't think not interacting with the board isn't a drawback...Anyways, it's obvious to everyone that you have an irrational hatred of blue.
Where did I say counter spells are unfair? I just said counter spells should play by the same rules other colors removal and hand distruption play by. Again, having counter spells without those draw backs would tilt the format toward blue. Look at the number of 2 mana counter spells there are in Modern, but they are not good enough because they have conditions or draw backs to them.
By the way, I dont hate any color. I just think all the colors should play fair
This whole discussion came about because some feel there are not the tools for blue control to thrive in Modern. I said there is. The blue mage from 10 years ago, and use to the blue spells of 10 years ago need to change their thinking and start brewing to make the counters available to you work.
When you ask most control/blue mages they want a counter that doesnt only unconditionally counter a spell, but give them a positive bonus on top of it. The thinking is the thinking that is hurting blue control in Modern.
I want to know by what meter you are saying cards are terrible. Have you tried them in Modern or are you looking at Legacy or Standard performances or metas from 5 or 10 years ago and not giving cards a chance in Modern?
And the same is said for Thoughtseize and IOK. I never said they had no disadvantages. I just said counterspell had them too, whereas you are implying that hard counterspells are "too good". I cannot have a reasonable discussion with someone who believes that hard counterspells are unfair. You have to realize that you are NOT furthering your own board state in order to hold mana up to interact with your opponent and hope you can stop what they do (notice that I said hope you can stop them, what if they counter you back and you essentially wasted a turn?). How do you not see this as a disadvantage?
Okay, lets walk thru this.
Turn 1, I drop a swamp and pay 2 life and play seize. I am at 18 have zero board postion and gave up playing an early drop. My opponent is down a card, and I am behind in the game, turn 1.
On turn 2, you hold up mana to counter my spell. You didnt take any life, there was no draw back such as life loss. (Some want added bonus from counters) and your opponent is a card down.
The counter player is ahead in life total, card advantage is even.
I dont believe counter spells are unfair. I think unconditional counter spells with no draw backs are unfair. To claim you have to play different because you are playing control and those counter spells is not an argument.
A deck playing IOK or seize is not furthering their board state, yet there are draw backs and/or conditions to those spells.
Path is not furthering your own board state, you are helping your opponent with an extra land drop (a draw back to the spell)
Abrupt Decay has a limitation of a 3 mana spell it can destroy (a draw back) but some say the uncounterable nullifies that draw back.
2 mana black removal has all kinds of restrictions from cant be an artifact, to cant be multicolored.
Like I have said, Wotc has changed their design plan, that includes blue. There are numerous 2 mana hard counters in the format with draw backs or conditions, the problem is the old school blue mage, who has written off those spells refuses to rethink their play style and look at those spells they have written off.
I dont have a problem with hard counters. I have a big problem with hard counters with no conditions or draw backs. Having to hold up mana is not a draw back, its a choice. Just like black mages playing hand disruption instead of advancing their board. Blue control is not the only play style that has to hold up mana for what ever the reason. Blue is not the only color that sacrifices board state to do other things.
If control, especially blue control, is to start thriving in Modern, the player base needs to change its mentality. This is not Legacy, this is not 10 years ago when draw go was good. Modern has stopped supporting draw go type control in Standard a while a go.
EDIT: I just wanted to point out that I am 90% happy with the counter magic available in modern. The only thing I'd like to see is another option for a hard, unconditional counter that can be played main deck outside of counterflux. Either something super awesome at 1UU or double blue and another color to help with color diversity in control lists. Absorb would be perfect, dromar's charm would make me dreamy, but literal counterspell is too good.
Attack the argument, not the person.
Splinter Twin isn't getting banned in the near future either, and for the same reason (Tier 1, but not dominant). However, if the deck does ever become too good, I'm pretty sure that unlike Pod, Twin would be the card that gets the banhammer.
Basically, the meta is in a good place right now, and nothing needs to get banned.
Any takers?
The real annoying thing about Abrupt Decay is how good it is against Blue Moon. Vedalken Shackles and Blood Moon would both be much stronger if it wasn't legal.
I can directly contradict that.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/567422-i-just-personally-spoke-with-aaron-forsythe-at-pro
See this? They want at least 3 good Control-Control decks to be in the format. And other than permission decks and prison decks, there are no other kinds of Control.
I am fine with Blue playing a fair game, except for one thing. Control and Tempo are at a major disadvantage in this format. So why should archetype diversity have to suffer just because it would make a single color a little bit better than the rest? Also, if BGx can get those unconditional answers, blue should be able to get them too.
And how is them not being good enough a good thing?
This is Modern. It isn't fair. And if BG is going to get their unconditional answers, U should get some too.
Yes, there are the tools for it to be succesful. However, I'd say that thrive is stretching it.
I personally just want Counterspell, Memory Lapse, and Dismiss. And Dismiss is just because I want a budget Cryptic Command. So of the 2 that I want for the format, one of them is just an unconditional counter and the other is variable.
While I agree that there is some untapped potential in counterspells in Modern (specifically in Condescend, Deprive, and Izzet Charm), Mana Leak is a pretty terrible late-game topdeck.
Can't we just hope for no bans in general right now?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I can see that. But I feel that cards like Blood Moon and Vedalken Shackles (I know they're not played much) are very strong cards that make some strategies nearly unplayable. I feel like Wizards doesn't want to see cards like Blood Moon have even half the impact a card like Birthing Pod does on the format. I know that Blue Moon is a deck that can do very well vs. some decks and I think that's as far as Wizards wants to go with non basic land hate in Modern. I feel like if there was no Abrupt Decay, it would be too easy to put some hurt on BGx decks (read, Goyf/Bob) with Shackles.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)There is one removal spell in some BGx decks that has zero draw backs or conditions on it, one.
It was late and the discussion had been going on for a bit, bad wording on my part. I meant that the only reason they seem bad is because they were bad in the past, in other formats. Because of that some dont wish to try things already found lacking in other formats. In short, the only reason they are seen as bad is relative.
All of them have zero draw backs or conditions for the blue player and two of them give the blue player a bonus for playing them. How is that fair? Blue should not get special treatment and better toys then everyone else. Like I said, there are plenty of fair 2 mana blue counters in this format.
I dont think so. Something drastic would have to happen in the format and the meta to make Wotc want/need to ban Snapcaster.
To be fair it doesnt matter in Modern. You can hit green black on turn 2, just as easy as you can hit double blue.