So I"m playing against American Control/Midrange at my LGS, and it got me thinking about building Esper in modern to see if it would operate the same way. It's simply replacing red with black, and both of those colors have enough similarity that black can operate as the compliment removal and offense for the deck. Additionally, the overall value-based core of the deck is the same; Geists, Sphinx's Rev, Snapcasters, Vendillion, Path, Resto, Leaks, and Colonade etc.
So, with that in mind, why isn't Esper a thing in Modern given how powerful American is? What can red do that black can't?
The convenience of cheap burn is pretty much it. However, that does not mean you could not play Modern Esper and enjoy it. I just imagine the pacing would be a bit slower.
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“Your body is not a temple, it's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.”
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
So I"m playing against American Control/Midrange at my LGS, and it got me thinking about building Esper in modern to see if it would operate the same way. It's simply replacing red with black, and both of those colors have enough similarity that black can operate as the compliment removal and offense for the deck. Additionally, the overall value-based core of the deck is the same; Geists, Sphinx's Rev, Snapcasters, Vendillion, Path, Resto, Leaks, and Colonade etc.
So, with that in mind, why isn't Esper a thing in Modern given how powerful American is? What can red do that black can't?
Burn spells.
People really like burning things in Modern. It's not only killmagic, it's a win condition.
That said I'd greatly encourage trying out anything else, burning people is nice and whatnot but IMO few things compare to a pile full of counterspells and hand disruption. Play black, and say no to everything... except for resolved artifacts and enchantments.
Besides, discard and countermagic can be redundant.
Having access to both discard and countermagic can be quite the advantage, from my experience. UWR control has some pretty bad matchups with certain combo decks that could be greatly improved if it had access to discard.
Esper has access to some of the best card advantage spells in Esper Charm and Mystical Teachings (better than it looks). Unfortunately, the meta right now has lots of cheap creatures and therefore favors cheap removal like Lightning Bolt, which black is lacking.
Another problem is that the format is just too diverse to construct a control deck than can control a significant portion of the field. UWR always has the plan B of racing with its burn spells.
WUR also has two on-color fetchlands available while Esper only has one. It seems like a minor point, but it makes a significant difference in the consistency of your mana.
Blue and black are somewhat overpowered in legacy, or at least used to be, so they haven't made very strong blue and black cards. What's the best blue/black card in modern? Consult the Necrosages? Lingering souls is the best black/white card but it isn't especially strong right now and it's a far cry from vindicate. Black is my favorite color and is certainly strong in modern with Lily, Bob, and discard/removal.
Izzet charm is better than Dimir charm. Lightning bolt is the most played card in modern for a reason and lightning helix and elecrolyze are very strong.
If you really want to run blue and black together I'd recommend BUG. Goyf, Bob, and Snap are the 3 best 2 drops in modern and lily has synergy with snap and black discard feeds Goyf and keeps bob alive for a while. Combining counterspells and discard with abrupt decay, lily, and maelstrom pulse is a very strong removal package, especially when you can recast any of those cards with Snap and you're drawing extra cards with Bob.
Green also gives you great lifegain with courser of kruphix, scavenging ooze, and kitchen finks. Those cards with Goyf are a solid creature package.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
No bolt, helix, electrolyze only one oncolor fetchland. Not as consistent and no easy win-con that doesn't take up extra space. For example, bolt is removal and a win con, where if your win con is lingering souls or such, you wont have as much versatility.
start with a UW deck, and play a lot with this, you will start to notice that your problem is in early game (early removal), so now you have to add a 3rd color:
green: put ramp, but not removal
red: put early soft removal
black: discard (a proactive answer) and hard removal (at greater cost)
jund loves black and discard because is a proactive deck and need proactive answers (discard), UW in his shell is a draw go deck, so you need reactive answer, red fit this role (early reactive removal) perfectly.
Alright, Lets be clear. All these people are saying "you cant cast bolt=bad." but there not actually explaining it well.
Bolt is a one mana versistal creature removal. In fact, its the best creature killer in the format, currently. There is no equivilent in black... sans things like go for the throat. If something along the lines of Innocent blood was in the format... we might have a different picture on our hands.
It's true. With red you get Lightning Bolt which every deck is trying to include. My reason behind why Esper is not a thing in Modern is because they banned all the cards that are used at the core of Esper lists (see Legacy builds). These include: Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Mindsculptor, the artifact lands, Ponder, Preordain, and Sword of the Meek which all see play in Esper builds.
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Modern: U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
It's true. With red you get Lightning Bolt which every deck is trying to include. My reason behind why Esper is not a thing in Modern is because they banned all the cards that are used at the core of Esper lists (see Legacy builds). These include: Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Mindsculptor, the artifact lands, Ponder, Preordain, and Sword of the Meek which all see play in Esper builds.
This post just goes to show how spoiled the player base has become. Instead of trying to make what we have work, lets complain what we dont.
All that said, even if we did have the cards brought up above, esper would still be slower then UWR builds.
It's true. With red you get Lightning Bolt which every deck is trying to include. My reason behind why Esper is not a thing in Modern is because they banned all the cards that are used at the core of Esper lists (see Legacy builds). These include: Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Mindsculptor, the artifact lands, Ponder, Preordain, and Sword of the Meek which all see play in Esper builds.
these would just slot into UWR in modern, red is better due to the modern metagame not the modern cardpool.
Less efficient removal and hand disruption that clashes with counterspells.
I honestly think that's the main reason. Blacks biggest 2 draws imo are discard and removal. Counterspells play a very similar role to discard and red and white have very strong removal
The fetches you can play are also strictly worse (marsh flats is the only fetch that shares 2 relevant colors).
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- Modern WBB/W TokensWB WUBAd NauseamWUB
- Commander WG Captain Sisay's LegendsWG
slightly worse mana base, slightly worse life gain cards, lightning helix is secretly good when 2/5ths of the format has lightning bolt
one of the best reasons to be black is thoughtseize, and a control deck doesn't have a fast enough clock to mitigate the life loss from thoughtseize and the slightly more painful mana base
I played Esper Gifts for a bit and it was fun. Not as consistent as UWR for me. I got a blood moon dropped on me and...well...it was bad. I need on color fetches before I can devote time to the deck.
I used to play esper then switched to UWR/grixis because i simply cannot win. discard + counter was giving me a great control feel, but considering my wincon was geist of saint traft + colonnade beats my options were pretty limited. now that i no longer have GoST and colonnades in grixis colour but I have added THE BOLT, it makes me feel a lot more versatile and comfortable winning games. I believe the only way esper will work in modern is a 4 CMC(or less) black combo enabler that allows esper to play like splinter twin. unburial rites just doesnt cut it.
Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta would go a long way just like UWR has Arid Mesa and Scalding Tarn. Seriously Marsh Flats is like the least important fetch in Esper colors.
Discard gives you more control over things since you can't deal with everything just with countermagic. Thrun, the Last Troll and certain combo decks coming to mind.
And the black removal while being more expensive also has upsides. I mean think about against how many decks Go for the Throat/Doom Blade/Smother are two mana removal spells that kill basically any creature in their deck. There are many of them.
But the more expensive black removal coupled with the inherent worse mana base because of the fetches strains your life total a lot more. In a format with Snapcaster Mage and Lightning Bolt that can become a problem.
In theory Esper is the best control color combination there is because white, black and blue give you everything you need to control the game. I mean green and red are not exactly known for their control tools.
There are just a few factors speaking against it right now.
I would have figured that Black would be sufficient with Ulcerate, Dismember, Damnation, Drown in Sorrow, etc... Kill spells are just as cheap as burn (Go for Throat, Deathmark, etc.). And I thought discard would be even more useful than burn against combo.
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So, with that in mind, why isn't Esper a thing in Modern given how powerful American is? What can red do that black can't?
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
Pretty much this. Besides, discard and countermagic can be redundant. Burn and countermagic are hitting you at 2 different angles. Esper does have Gifts Ungiven, Unburial Rites, and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Burn spells.
People really like burning things in Modern. It's not only killmagic, it's a win condition.
That said I'd greatly encourage trying out anything else, burning people is nice and whatnot but IMO few things compare to a pile full of counterspells and hand disruption. Play black, and say no to everything... except for resolved artifacts and enchantments.
Having access to both discard and countermagic can be quite the advantage, from my experience. UWR control has some pretty bad matchups with certain combo decks that could be greatly improved if it had access to discard.
Esper has access to some of the best card advantage spells in Esper Charm and Mystical Teachings (better than it looks). Unfortunately, the meta right now has lots of cheap creatures and therefore favors cheap removal like Lightning Bolt, which black is lacking.
Another problem is that the format is just too diverse to construct a control deck than can control a significant portion of the field. UWR always has the plan B of racing with its burn spells.
WURUWr Stoneblade
Modern
WRGNaya Zoo Company
Izzet charm is better than Dimir charm. Lightning bolt is the most played card in modern for a reason and lightning helix and elecrolyze are very strong.
If you really want to run blue and black together I'd recommend BUG. Goyf, Bob, and Snap are the 3 best 2 drops in modern and lily has synergy with snap and black discard feeds Goyf and keeps bob alive for a while. Combining counterspells and discard with abrupt decay, lily, and maelstrom pulse is a very strong removal package, especially when you can recast any of those cards with Snap and you're drawing extra cards with Bob.
Green also gives you great lifegain with courser of kruphix, scavenging ooze, and kitchen finks. Those cards with Goyf are a solid creature package.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
start with a UW deck, and play a lot with this, you will start to notice that your problem is in early game (early removal), so now you have to add a 3rd color:
green: put ramp, but not removal
red: put early soft removal
black: discard (a proactive answer) and hard removal (at greater cost)
jund loves black and discard because is a proactive deck and need proactive answers (discard), UW in his shell is a draw go deck, so you need reactive answer, red fit this role (early reactive removal) perfectly.
Bolt is a one mana versistal creature removal. In fact, its the best creature killer in the format, currently. There is no equivilent in black... sans things like go for the throat. If something along the lines of Innocent blood was in the format... we might have a different picture on our hands.
You can now commence with the "/thread."
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
This post just goes to show how spoiled the player base has become. Instead of trying to make what we have work, lets complain what we dont.
All that said, even if we did have the cards brought up above, esper would still be slower then UWR builds.
A more accurate question would be why play UWR instead of RUG or RUB.
these would just slot into UWR in modern, red is better due to the modern metagame not the modern cardpool.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
I honestly think that's the main reason. Blacks biggest 2 draws imo are discard and removal. Counterspells play a very similar role to discard and red and white have very strong removal
The fetches you can play are also strictly worse (marsh flats is the only fetch that shares 2 relevant colors).
WBB/W TokensWB
WUBAd NauseamWUB
- Commander
WG Captain Sisay's LegendsWG
one of the best reasons to be black is thoughtseize, and a control deck doesn't have a fast enough clock to mitigate the life loss from thoughtseize and the slightly more painful mana base
There are RUG decks in Modern.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
Discard gives you more control over things since you can't deal with everything just with countermagic. Thrun, the Last Troll and certain combo decks coming to mind.
And the black removal while being more expensive also has upsides. I mean think about against how many decks Go for the Throat/Doom Blade/Smother are two mana removal spells that kill basically any creature in their deck. There are many of them.
But the more expensive black removal coupled with the inherent worse mana base because of the fetches strains your life total a lot more. In a format with Snapcaster Mage and Lightning Bolt that can become a problem.
In theory Esper is the best control color combination there is because white, black and blue give you everything you need to control the game. I mean green and red are not exactly known for their control tools.
There are just a few factors speaking against it right now.
That deck was only good since people shoved deathrite shaman into it. Zur decks are dead now.