In all seriousness though mods ought to lock the thread. It's going nowhere other than storm and non-storm players flaming back in forth. There's no real discussion here. (And yes I know I'm guilty even in this post)
I see nothing wrong with the discussion here.
Playing with storm and playing against storm are very different things and I think both require a lot of thought and focus. Do you counter this spell? Should you remove their goblin at the end of your turn or wait until they dump a spell and then bounce in an attempt to make them invest into a spell tree that they can actually mana-afford? How do you sideboard so that you can handle the power of storm while not weakening other matchups?
For those of you that hate storm, name one other deck in the format that would fill it's combo-gap left by it's banning. ??? I can't think of any. I don't play storm in modern since I think it's too fragile, but I love the dynamic it adds to the format.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
In all seriousness though mods ought to lock the thread. It's going nowhere other than storm and non-storm players flaming back in forth. There's no real discussion here. (And yes I know I'm guilty even in this post)
I see nothing wrong with the discussion here.
Playing with storm and playing against storm are very different things and I think both require a lot of thought and focus. Do you counter this spell? Should you remove their goblin at the end of your turn or wait until they dump a spell and then bounce in an attempt to make them invest into a spell tree that they can actually mana-afford? How do you sideboard so that you can handle the power of storm while not weakening other matchups?
For those of you that hate storm, name one other deck in the format that would fill it's combo-gap left by it's banning. ??? I can't think of any. I don't play storm in modern since I think it's too fragile, but I love the dynamic it adds to the format.
Legacy storm takes skill because there's more ways to interact with it there. Modern storm is completely brain dead and even more so online where it tracks your count for you. Ad nauseam is good enough to fill the combo gap to me. I know it's not storm precisely, but I think the less legacy ports (especially watered down ones like storm) the better.
Storm is so easy to dismantle with the proper sideboarding and typically isn't too hard to beat G1 for many decks. It sure is explosive and has power, but it's not oppressive.
Yeah, but that doesn't make it fun to play against. If you're like me, you don't give sh*t about winning, you play to enjoy the game. As soon as you figure out you're playing against storm, it's "I'll lose the first game and then win the next two with my sideboarding", it kinda ruins the suspense. A one-sided game is rarely fun, win or lose.
On the other hand, some people find it fun to play. I am one such person. I enjoy having to think myself out of situations involving complex decision trees and math. Do I have the resources? What are the odds I will fail if I try this? Can I afford to wait? These are things I enjoy doing, and Storm is one of the best decks to do this.
I don't disagree with your point, it's your opinion and that's your right to have. But just because you have one opinion about the deck, doesn't mean we should treat the deck based on it. People say the same thing about a lot of decks. "Tron is so boring, they just ramp, and play Karn and Emrakul", or "Control is so boring, they just counter my spells and play no creatures". It's not any different how you're describing Storm, it's not fun for you, but that really shouldn't matter about whether the deck should exist or not. Fun is subjective, so we can't ever properly analyze a deck based on such a quality.
I'm not suggesting that storm be banned or nerfed. In fact, if you go back a few posts, I said I think storm needs help. My comment was that just because it isn't oppressive doesn't mean there isn't a problem. WotC is in the business of selling fun, and if people don't enjoy playing against a deck, that deck is a threat to their business. And in the end, it will be storm players who suffer. Which would be sad, since there are so few spell heavy decks these days.
Personally, I think the issue is interactivity: people don't enjoy playing against non-interactive decks. The solution we've seen WotC use is to print cards that demolish storm but are not useful enough to be main decked. The result are boring games where you either draw your hate or you don't. And I'm pretty certain storm players find Leyline of Sanctity annoying as well (a while back some burn players on the board said they wanted it banned). My hope is that WotC will print some main deckable cards that let every deck fight storm (but not outright demolish it). At the same time, they can print a few cards to make storm better, but also make the deck a little more vulnerable to more decks (like Goblin Electromancer makes storm better, but allows more decks to interact with it because it is vulnerable to conventional removal). Then both sides can have their strategic game.
And some other viable creatureless decks would be cool, too.
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
In all seriousness though mods ought to lock the thread. It's going nowhere other than storm and non-storm players flaming back in forth. There's no real discussion here. (And yes I know I'm guilty even in this post)
I see nothing wrong with the discussion here.
Playing with storm and playing against storm are very different things and I think both require a lot of thought and focus. Do you counter this spell? Should you remove their goblin at the end of your turn or wait until they dump a spell and then bounce in an attempt to make them invest into a spell tree that they can actually mana-afford? How do you sideboard so that you can handle the power of storm while not weakening other matchups?
This is why the goblin is a great card from a game design standpoint: it makes storm better while making it more interesting to play against, because now an opponent who isn't packing counter spells has a way of interacting with their opponent. Storm needs more cards like this!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I had an issue with my deck not being interesting enough back in the day. Not only did my deck bore me, but my opponents all were hardcore Spikes that wanted nothing but to win, were totally stoic and unsocial, and frankly the fun was lost for tournaments for me. A few friends of mine kept pulling me into tournaments, and I started playing Combo-of-the-week or control, until I started playing storm.
I think this was close to Time Spiral standard, when it was starting to become a tier 1 deck (Dragonstorm, for those who remember), but I really loved the complexity. My opponents rarely gave me the engaging back-and-fourth I craved, so I started playing a deck that gave me the challenge by itself. It can be seen as very non-interactive (yes, yes I know. I stooped to their level), but I disagree completely: it's ALL about mind games. As soon as my opponent plays a Swamp or Island, I'm worried about a discard/counter; but if I seem like I'm put back, then my opponent gets more time because I want to play around it and knows my hand is fragile. If they just see my hand/deck, roll their eyes and potato the game, I know my combo is safe and I'm confident rolling straight into their life total.
So, as for 'fun', I THOROUGHLY enjoy playing storm. It's a deck that increases the challenge of the game for me, and if my opponents have good plays against my deck/good hate, it can get to be a really complex and interesting game. The friends of mine that don't like it don't see what they're missing: the interaction isn't on the board, it's in your head. I'm a paper player, so I don't know the intricacies of MTGO, but the deck isn't grossly overpowered (b/c *insert rant about WotC and Seething Song*), but is much different than your usual 'slap big creature on board, let it do the thinking for you' mentality.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C.S. Lewis
While there are good defenses for storm being said, most of the people here discussing against storm are just saying they don't like it. Not to mention the threads title is pretty flamey enough to make people get defensive. Didnt lock it right away since I assumed the thread would die off, and these threads pop up now and again, but the vent has run its course and I'm locking this now.
I see nothing wrong with the discussion here.
Playing with storm and playing against storm are very different things and I think both require a lot of thought and focus. Do you counter this spell? Should you remove their goblin at the end of your turn or wait until they dump a spell and then bounce in an attempt to make them invest into a spell tree that they can actually mana-afford? How do you sideboard so that you can handle the power of storm while not weakening other matchups?
For those of you that hate storm, name one other deck in the format that would fill it's combo-gap left by it's banning. ??? I can't think of any. I don't play storm in modern since I think it's too fragile, but I love the dynamic it adds to the format.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Legacy storm takes skill because there's more ways to interact with it there. Modern storm is completely brain dead and even more so online where it tracks your count for you. Ad nauseam is good enough to fill the combo gap to me. I know it's not storm precisely, but I think the less legacy ports (especially watered down ones like storm) the better.
I'm not suggesting that storm be banned or nerfed. In fact, if you go back a few posts, I said I think storm needs help. My comment was that just because it isn't oppressive doesn't mean there isn't a problem. WotC is in the business of selling fun, and if people don't enjoy playing against a deck, that deck is a threat to their business. And in the end, it will be storm players who suffer. Which would be sad, since there are so few spell heavy decks these days.
Personally, I think the issue is interactivity: people don't enjoy playing against non-interactive decks. The solution we've seen WotC use is to print cards that demolish storm but are not useful enough to be main decked. The result are boring games where you either draw your hate or you don't. And I'm pretty certain storm players find Leyline of Sanctity annoying as well (a while back some burn players on the board said they wanted it banned). My hope is that WotC will print some main deckable cards that let every deck fight storm (but not outright demolish it). At the same time, they can print a few cards to make storm better, but also make the deck a little more vulnerable to more decks (like Goblin Electromancer makes storm better, but allows more decks to interact with it because it is vulnerable to conventional removal). Then both sides can have their strategic game.
And some other viable creatureless decks would be cool, too.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
This is why the goblin is a great card from a game design standpoint: it makes storm better while making it more interesting to play against, because now an opponent who isn't packing counter spells has a way of interacting with their opponent. Storm needs more cards like this!
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I had an issue with my deck not being interesting enough back in the day. Not only did my deck bore me, but my opponents all were hardcore Spikes that wanted nothing but to win, were totally stoic and unsocial, and frankly the fun was lost for tournaments for me. A few friends of mine kept pulling me into tournaments, and I started playing Combo-of-the-week or control, until I started playing storm.
I think this was close to Time Spiral standard, when it was starting to become a tier 1 deck (Dragonstorm, for those who remember), but I really loved the complexity. My opponents rarely gave me the engaging back-and-fourth I craved, so I started playing a deck that gave me the challenge by itself. It can be seen as very non-interactive (yes, yes I know. I stooped to their level), but I disagree completely: it's ALL about mind games. As soon as my opponent plays a Swamp or Island, I'm worried about a discard/counter; but if I seem like I'm put back, then my opponent gets more time because I want to play around it and knows my hand is fragile. If they just see my hand/deck, roll their eyes and potato the game, I know my combo is safe and I'm confident rolling straight into their life total.
So, as for 'fun', I THOROUGHLY enjoy playing storm. It's a deck that increases the challenge of the game for me, and if my opponents have good plays against my deck/good hate, it can get to be a really complex and interesting game. The friends of mine that don't like it don't see what they're missing: the interaction isn't on the board, it's in your head. I'm a paper player, so I don't know the intricacies of MTGO, but the deck isn't grossly overpowered (b/c *insert rant about WotC and Seething Song*), but is much different than your usual 'slap big creature on board, let it do the thinking for you' mentality.
-C.S. Lewis
EDH
Obzedat - Still Alive
Retired - Nicol Bolas