Just to get it out of the way, I play RWU control and I mainboard 3 Vendillion Cliques. In my personal opinion the card is just amazing but I get a lot of slack from friends that play modern saying it's a bad card in certain match ups, but honestly I can't think of a single match up where I wouldn't want to see Clique.
Against control I either bait a counterspell or get to see their hand and toss a something. If they counter it when I flash it in on their turn now they have less mana and counters during my turn so I can resolve an Ajani Vangeant or something. If they don't counter it I gain valuable knowledge of their hand and I can apply pressure with my 3/1 flier.
Against Jund it will usually just get rid of something I don't want to see and then eat removal that would have been getting aimed at my Celestial Collonade. Sometimes however you can sneak it in on their end phase and it can take down a Liliana or Chandra or trade it for a Bob or rarely a Goyf.
Against aggro variants I can usually flash it in during combat to trade with an attacking creature thanks to Cliques 3 power. In these match ups I would usually target myself just to filter some cards out.
Lastly against combo you get to pick apart their combo and apply pressure so they don't have all the time in the world to build up their combo.
So given all this, when would I NOT want Vendillion Cliques?
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
so like against aggro you said you're going to jam it and trade with a x/3 so you spent 3 mana to kill something when you could play a bolt for 1 to do the same thing effectively. don't get me wrong the card is really strong and criminally under played but the card just shines best against blue decks or other decks that want to keep cards in its hand modern as is is like a midrange deck paradise so it's not insanely good still good none the less.
Removal that also lets me filter my cards or mess with their hand. Costing 3 really just means I can't use it on my first or second turns but chances are I had something else to cast on those turns anyways since the deck runs a ton of 1 and 2 cost removal spells.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
Aggro is admittedly the weakest match for this card it's still not a terrible card there. The point I'm trying to make is that everyone always says it's a sideboard card because it's only good in some match ups but truthfully it's good in all match ups just less so in some.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
Aggro is admittedly the weakest match for this card it's still not a terrible card there. The point I'm trying to make is that everyone always says it's a sideboard card because it's only good in some match ups but truthfully it's good in all match ups just less so in some.
Really?
To be honest I have never seen them in sideboards. Only in the maindeck of UWR Control and obviously Faeries but I dont check out every list of every deck in this forum so I could have missed it.
Aggro is admittedly the weakest match for this card it's still not a terrible card there. The point I'm trying to make is that everyone always says it's a sideboard card because it's only good in some match ups but truthfully it's good in all match ups just less so in some.
Really?
To be honest I have never seen them in sideboards. Only in the maindeck of UWR Control and obviously Faeries but I dont check out every list of every deck in this forum so I could have missed it.
Some decks play it in sideboards because it's a proactive answer. It proactively handles threats in hands while also being able to filter your own cards if that's more important. Against combo, you flash it end of turn and put back their key card. It's very good against combo, especially when we're seeing less decks like Storm (that use a critical mass of cards, which means no single card is that important, and they draw their entire deck anyways) and more decks like Twin and Pod (which rely on the key interaction of a small number of cards, meaning individual cards hold more weight than others).
It's also decent enough against control since it's an instant speed threat. Admittedly though, I hate how Electrolyze answers it and pings me.
I'm pretty sure it's bad against Tron. On the play they can cast their best stuff before you hit three mana, and three damage isn't enough to really pressure a Karn or keep up with a Wurmcoil.
Zoo likewise can dump their hand before Clique comes down, so hitting their hand is not a thing. And you give their Paths and Bolts a target they wouldn't otherwise have (Snapcaster doesn't count, he's just a speed bump to them).
Granted I don't know how your matchup is against those decks in general, I'm just talking specifically about Vendilion Clique.
Like others have said, I would side it out vs. Aggro. There's no reason for me to trade a 3/1 flier for some stupid 2/2 bear that I could have answered in a much easier way. This goes especially for Burn. I guess you could trade their Boros Charm for a Lightning Bolt, but on the 3rd turn, they already have you at 7-10 life. I would never play it vs. Faeries either. There are people who disagree with me, but this is how I've played it in Faeries Standard, when Faeries was in Block, Faeries in Extended, and I would assume that it's the same now. It just doesn't line up well with Bitterblossom and the Fae deck is too consistent for the "sliding a card to the bottom and draw a card" to hurt them. I would never play this vs. Affinity either unless I was specifically trying to get out a 3 cost or higher hate card that I can't answer easily.
I have actually personally never used my Vendilion Cliques in Modern. I have had 2 in the SB of RUG Twin, but they never came in. I may have done it right or done it wrong, but this is how I played it. I don't personally like it vs. Jund because they have too many ways to spend a mana or 2 mana to kill it. I probably wouldn't play it vs. Pod because they can get their hand out early or Chord in response. This could be possibly be wrong and I would love to hear people's reasons for it being wrong.
The matchups where I would play it are Combo decks and Control. I believe it would come in vs. these decks in nearly every situation except some odd situation like vs. Dredgevine.
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I keep Cliques in, in all MU's except aggro. It is extremely good against Tron being able to clock them and get out of their hand a problem card. Against other mid-range decks it's really good especially against Liliana on the play. Being able to take it out of their hand, and or, pressure her. I run 2 MB and 1 SB.
I'm a strong believer in the power of Clique, even against aggressive matchups. Targeting yourself is usually a poor choice unless you've got some seriously dead cards in hand, but using 3 mana to kill an X/3 while also stripping your opponent of another of his cards and giving you perfect information about their hand is an amazing play.
The fact that it's a 3 mana creature means that it's immune to both Spell Snare and Spell Pierce, which is just gravy.
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When I played a lot of merfolk I found that people usually ended up regretting cliquing me and not themselves for more gas. The deck and its threats are super redundant and I'm usually holding up islands against decks that run clique, so really chances are you are going to give me gas which is the opposite of what you'd hope to achieve.
Idk if there are other super redundant decks like that, but I could see living end also being a poor choice for cliquing against.
though, a 3/1 flying flash body for three aspect of the whole deal is a different story, I think I pretty much would always want that.
As the Primo zoo player, I have never had trouble with clique, unless I'm already losing. I have up to 16 ways maindecked to kill it. On draw I've untapped, and I've held bolts for reach, so I know I have 3-1 mana free now to play whatever I like. If I see you flick your hand Its a cue that you have bad cards in your hand and I have an opening. If you trade with one of my dudes, my bigger ones (goyf/knight/smiter) stay alive. You also make me ditch a card, but if I draw a creature, I replaced the one you killed on trade, or I drew removal. Targetting me only works less then 1/3rd of the time, which is land. (Fetch thinning, by turn 3 on the play I've done 6 lands, so I have 12 in deck tops.)
Overall, anger of the gods scares me way more than a clique. If you cast clique on turn 3 and not anger I know your lacking and I can apply the pressure and win.
Not saying clique is a bad card, its just very "Alright" to bland in the zoo matchup.
Also, any fellow aggro players... Wait til the caster of clique resolves it off the stack and then targets you clearly. Its a secondary EtB trigger, so they dont have to say "Target me or You" until its already a creature and not a spell. Ive had many many shady players in big touris try to get me to flash my hand to them before saying "I'm targeting me." and dig for removal.
i play it in my grixis control list and i honestly think that clique is overrated. i really dont feel there's any given match up that I would absolutely want this card in my hand. the only situation i desperately need it is when im playing a control mirror and i want to resolve an ultimatum on my turn. besides that, i think IoK or thoughtseize do a better job.
When I played a lot of merfolk I found that people usually ended up regretting cliquing me and not themselves for more gas. The deck and its threats are super redundant and I'm usually holding up islands against decks that run clique, so really chances are you are going to give me gas which is the opposite of what you'd hope to achieve.
Idk if there are other super redundant decks like that, but I could see living end also being a poor choice for cliquing against.
though, a 3/1 flying flash body for three aspect of the whole deal is a different story, I think I pretty much would always want that.
Vendilion Clique. They don't have to take a card, even if they target you and look at your hand. They can make the decision whether it is good to trade a nonland card in your hand for a random card or not.
I guess I can see it being used against Jund to pressure Liliana. This would have to be pretty much in the late game when resources are nearly gone for both players, as Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, and Terminate all do a good job of protecting Liliana.
Also a point for Vendilion Clique is that it gains value when it is used by players who play it well. Knowing when to target yourself or your opponent is key. Knowing when to flash it out is important. Knowing when a specific card is better or worse than a random card is also important. Personally since I haven't used the card much (even with owning them ever since Morningtide), I wouldn't make the best decisions. I am always so tempted to flash it out on turn 3 to apply pressure or hold it when they are applying pressure to play after a sweeper. Obviously this changes if I am trying to filter a card from my hand to find that particular mass removal.
@Lantern - That is really odd. I've played against Vendilion Clique a decent amount of time ever since Standard and no one has really tried to do that to me. In fact, I noticed many players when I say it resolved immediately make sure that I know that they are targeting themselves. I always wait until they tell who they chose. I even do this for Thoughtseize and some Standard players look at me like what's wrong with me (even though I am just simply asking what they chose as a target per the card's text).
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
When I played a lot of merfolk I found that people usually ended up regretting cliquing me and not themselves for more gas. The deck and its threats are super redundant and I'm usually holding up islands against decks that run clique, so really chances are you are going to give me gas which is the opposite of what you'd hope to achieve.
Idk if there are other super redundant decks like that, but I could see living end also being a poor choice for cliquing against.
though, a 3/1 flying flash body for three aspect of the whole deal is a different story, I think I pretty much would always want that.
Vendilion Clique. They don't have to take a card, even if they target you and look at your hand. They can make the decision whether it is good to trade a nonland card in your hand for a random card or not.
I guess I can see it being used against Jund to pressure Liliana. This would have to be pretty much in the late game when resources are nearly gone for both players, as Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, and Terminate all do a good job of protecting Liliana.
Also a point for Vendilion Clique is that it gains value when it is used by players who play it well. Knowing when to target yourself or your opponent is key. Knowing when to flash it out is important. Knowing when a specific card is better or worse than a random card is also important. Personally since I haven't used the card much (even with owning them ever since Morningtide), I wouldn't make the best decisions. I am always so tempted to flash it out on turn 3 to apply pressure or hold it when they are applying pressure to play after a sweeper. Obviously this changes if I am trying to filter a card from my hand to find that particular mass removal.
@Lantern - That is really odd. I've played against Vendilion Clique a decent amount of time ever since Standard and no one has really tried to do that to me. In fact, I noticed many players when I say it resolved immediately make sure that I know that they are targeting themselves. I always wait until they tell who they chose. I even do this for Thoughtseize and some Standard players look at me like what's wrong with me (even though I am just simply asking what they chose as a target per the card's text).
[quote from="BatHickey »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/559687-when-wouldnt-i-want-vendillion-clique?comment=13"] @Lantern - That is really odd. I've played against Vendilion Clique a decent amount of time ever since Standard and no one has really tried to do that to me. In fact, I noticed many players when I say it resolved immediately make sure that I know that they are targeting themselves. I always wait until they tell who they chose. I even do this for Thoughtseize and some Standard players look at me like what's wrong with me (even though I am just simply asking what they chose as a target per the card's text).
Right, when to use them and when not is key. Its one of those cards that are hard to play with. The only think zoo has close to that kind of desison making (Yes zoo players do think out moves, we just do more choices about baiting removal, bluffing with attacks, and planning out long term damage maximization) is Ghor-clan. High risk high reward card.
Aside from that, yeah it happens. I mean were talking about some players who just are *place nicer word than I'd use here* about it. They are the same guys that will try to go to time, take longer turns, or take advantage of "missing triggers." You're being a good player by waiting. Its totally correct. Even if they think the answer is obvious, they need to state intentions and pass priority... That is one good thing MTGO teaches you. But some shady players (Mad that you're playing a 'dumb aggro deck' and winning) will try to take advantage of you. Clique is one of those cards with so many options connected to it, you have to be a well versed player to know the ins and outs of the card.
Against control I either bait a counterspell or get to see their hand and toss a something. If they counter it when I flash it in on their turn now they have less mana and counters during my turn so I can resolve an Ajani Vangeant or something. If they don't counter it I gain valuable knowledge of their hand and I can apply pressure with my 3/1 flier.
Against Jund it will usually just get rid of something I don't want to see and then eat removal that would have been getting aimed at my Celestial Collonade. Sometimes however you can sneak it in on their end phase and it can take down a Liliana or Chandra or trade it for a Bob or rarely a Goyf.
Against aggro variants I can usually flash it in during combat to trade with an attacking creature thanks to Cliques 3 power. In these match ups I would usually target myself just to filter some cards out.
Lastly against combo you get to pick apart their combo and apply pressure so they don't have all the time in the world to build up their combo.
So given all this, when would I NOT want Vendillion Cliques?
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Really?
To be honest I have never seen them in sideboards. Only in the maindeck of UWR Control and obviously Faeries but I dont check out every list of every deck in this forum so I could have missed it.
Some decks play it in sideboards because it's a proactive answer. It proactively handles threats in hands while also being able to filter your own cards if that's more important. Against combo, you flash it end of turn and put back their key card. It's very good against combo, especially when we're seeing less decks like Storm (that use a critical mass of cards, which means no single card is that important, and they draw their entire deck anyways) and more decks like Twin and Pod (which rely on the key interaction of a small number of cards, meaning individual cards hold more weight than others).
It's also decent enough against control since it's an instant speed threat. Admittedly though, I hate how Electrolyze answers it and pings me.
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Zoo likewise can dump their hand before Clique comes down, so hitting their hand is not a thing. And you give their Paths and Bolts a target they wouldn't otherwise have (Snapcaster doesn't count, he's just a speed bump to them).
Granted I don't know how your matchup is against those decks in general, I'm just talking specifically about Vendilion Clique.
I have actually personally never used my Vendilion Cliques in Modern. I have had 2 in the SB of RUG Twin, but they never came in. I may have done it right or done it wrong, but this is how I played it. I don't personally like it vs. Jund because they have too many ways to spend a mana or 2 mana to kill it. I probably wouldn't play it vs. Pod because they can get their hand out early or Chord in response. This could be possibly be wrong and I would love to hear people's reasons for it being wrong.
The matchups where I would play it are Combo decks and Control. I believe it would come in vs. these decks in nearly every situation except some odd situation like vs. Dredgevine.
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The fact that it's a 3 mana creature means that it's immune to both Spell Snare and Spell Pierce, which is just gravy.
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Idk if there are other super redundant decks like that, but I could see living end also being a poor choice for cliquing against.
though, a 3/1 flying flash body for three aspect of the whole deal is a different story, I think I pretty much would always want that.
Overall, anger of the gods scares me way more than a clique. If you cast clique on turn 3 and not anger I know your lacking and I can apply the pressure and win.
Not saying clique is a bad card, its just very "Alright" to bland in the zoo matchup.
Also, any fellow aggro players... Wait til the caster of clique resolves it off the stack and then targets you clearly. Its a secondary EtB trigger, so they dont have to say "Target me or You" until its already a creature and not a spell. Ive had many many shady players in big touris try to get me to flash my hand to them before saying "I'm targeting me." and dig for removal.
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Vendilion Clique. They don't have to take a card, even if they target you and look at your hand. They can make the decision whether it is good to trade a nonland card in your hand for a random card or not.
I guess I can see it being used against Jund to pressure Liliana. This would have to be pretty much in the late game when resources are nearly gone for both players, as Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, and Terminate all do a good job of protecting Liliana.
Also a point for Vendilion Clique is that it gains value when it is used by players who play it well. Knowing when to target yourself or your opponent is key. Knowing when to flash it out is important. Knowing when a specific card is better or worse than a random card is also important. Personally since I haven't used the card much (even with owning them ever since Morningtide), I wouldn't make the best decisions. I am always so tempted to flash it out on turn 3 to apply pressure or hold it when they are applying pressure to play after a sweeper. Obviously this changes if I am trying to filter a card from my hand to find that particular mass removal.
@Lantern - That is really odd. I've played against Vendilion Clique a decent amount of time ever since Standard and no one has really tried to do that to me. In fact, I noticed many players when I say it resolved immediately make sure that I know that they are targeting themselves. I always wait until they tell who they chose. I even do this for Thoughtseize and some Standard players look at me like what's wrong with me (even though I am just simply asking what they chose as a target per the card's text).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Yeah knowing when to play Vendilion and if and what you put to the bottom takes skill.
Frank Karsten made an article at Channelfireball where he talks about tips and tricks for a selection of Modern cards and Vendilion Clique is among them.
Here is the article:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-tips-and-tricks-for-modern/
Right, when to use them and when not is key. Its one of those cards that are hard to play with. The only think zoo has close to that kind of desison making (Yes zoo players do think out moves, we just do more choices about baiting removal, bluffing with attacks, and planning out long term damage maximization) is Ghor-clan. High risk high reward card.
Aside from that, yeah it happens. I mean were talking about some players who just are *place nicer word than I'd use here* about it. They are the same guys that will try to go to time, take longer turns, or take advantage of "missing triggers." You're being a good player by waiting. Its totally correct. Even if they think the answer is obvious, they need to state intentions and pass priority... That is one good thing MTGO teaches you. But some shady players (Mad that you're playing a 'dumb aggro deck' and winning) will try to take advantage of you. Clique is one of those cards with so many options connected to it, you have to be a well versed player to know the ins and outs of the card.