well, your interpretation of poll 1 is off. middle is winning by 7%, and that's why i said the first poll is worded poorly. that option should be "i like right in the middle." in fact, the second question covers the first question as well.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
This thread is not about weither the thread should exist or not, it is about powerlevel. Keep on topic please
What is "power level?"
Can you define that before endorsing discussions of make-believe?
Power level is anything to do with power level of modern. It was also an attempt to re-route the topic to stay on track in a friendly manner, without having to hand out an infraction for flaming or spam to the person who got the topic off track in the first place. Once more, keep the topic on track, please.
I wonder, if the 0-10 option was in scale, where the 6-10 crowd would have put there votes. 6 I feel is ok, 10 on the other hand... Lumping them together feels imbalanced for a poll such as this.
As for myself, Legacy without the reserved list, more or less. Not that I'd want any drastic changes: I'm more or less happy with how things are now, but, in another ten years, there will be an inevitable power creep that will come with an ever-larger card pool.
I don't see Modern as an Extended replacement: I think a longer, more-slowly-rotating format is still needed and will become more pressing as time goes on.
I hope that Wizards doesn't turn Modern into Legacy without the Reserved List. It was intended to be in-between Standard and Legacy. It was not intended to be Legacy.
I am completely happy with the formats power level there is a varied metagame of which decks appear to have started coming and going in cycles. It does not need a 'change' to its power level after so long spent crafting this metagame. People who play the format are rewarded and both standard and legacy exist so it makes zero sense to make modern a competing format, it should have its own identity.
While I don't think that Modern should become Legacy, moving its power-level up is something that I would like.
This is whats wrong with the perception of Modern.
Poll one has the mid point winning by 52%.
Then in poll 2 the majority want a more powerful format.
Cant have it both ways.
The thing is that most of the people in the first poll probably want Modern to be closer to Legacy in power-level, but not as powerful as Legacy. The problem is that the third option in the first poll includes all but the most extreme versions of the first and second options.
Seriously power level needs to be defined. When you say you want a format closer to the legacy power level, do you mean turn 1 kill capability? I'm not derailing, I'm trying to add meaning behind this scale of 1-10. Like is power level 10 turn 1 land, lotus, channel fireball, gg?
Is power level 9 lotus petal, city of traitor, show and tell emrakrul?
well, your interpretation of poll 1 is off. middle is winning by 7%, and that's why i said the first poll is worded poorly. that option should be "i like right in the middle." in fact, the second question covers the first question as well.
I know that I have worded it poorly but sadly and for some reason I cannot edit polls once they are created so I was forced to make a second one that isnt't skewed in one direction.
10-6 = closer to legacy
5 = right in the middle and between both formats
4-0 = closer to Standard
I wonder, if the 0-10 option was in scale, where the 6-10 crowd would have put there votes. 6 I feel is ok, 10 on the other hand... Lumping them together feels imbalanced for a poll such as this.
Once this thread is old then maybe another poll could be made to see where the sweet spot is exactly but for now this thread is only here to see the general direction in which people think Modern should develop.
Those numbers are vague and meaningless. I really have no idea what you're talking about when you say "closer to legacy"
Since you're having trouble defining it, I'll take a go:
Power level 1-2 = turn 6 kill, what's a cantrip?
Power level 3-4 = turn 5 kill, no cantrip, but you can scry...
Power level 5 = turn 4 kill, serum vision is your best cantrip
Power level 6-7 = turn 3 kill, preordain is your best cantrip
Power level 8-9 = turn 2 kill, ponder is your best cantirp
Power level 10 = turn 1 kill, brainstorm is your best cantrip
Modern is a turn 4 format, decks cannot win before this point consistently and the flow of the match is mostly decided at this point.
Legacy, despite what many who aren't familiar with it will say, is a turn 3 format. that's when TNN is cast, Batterskull get's dropped, Miracles untaps with top and counterbalance, etc. Decks can win quicker than this, but the prominence of FOW keeps those decks from being prominent.
Edit:
I figured I'd also put some of the scariest opening sequences in Legacy.
T1: Deathrite Shaman, T2: Lilliana with Daze/Force backup, possibly Wasteland
T1: Delver, T2: Tarmogoyf, Daze/Force backup
T1: Duress, comboing off on Turn 3
T1: Vial, T2: Rishadan Port, Thalia
I'm very happy with modern's power level. You can do absurdly broken things already like make infinite creatures to win instantly with on turn 4, drop wurmcoil engines and karns on turn 3, draw your entire deck with ad nauseum and fireball your opponent for lethal at instant speed on turn 4-5, sac murderous redcap a million times to dome your opponent for lethal, drop 4/5s for 1G on turn 2, have 3/2 flyers attacking on turn 2 for just U
Compared to standard right now modern is absurdly powerful. You can do some broken, unfair things. But with the current banlist those broken things aren't too consistent and can be disrupted with efficient, powerful, fair cards like lightning bolt, thoughseize, path to exile, thalia, scavenging ooze, remand, mana leak etc.
I think people should just stop comparing modern and legacy, the comparisons just don't really help or serve any purpose. Apples and oranges.
Modern is its own guy now, who it chooses to be, it shouldn't be discussed as Legacy's offspring or younger brother. It's its own man.
I agree that currently modern has powerful options but as your list shows, the majority of options are creature based. So while I don't think modern needs to get more powerful I would like to see a shift in new blocks towards more powerful spells rather than creatures, more like legacy.
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Even dredge wins with creatures. Exactly what is it that you want? Ancestral Recall? Show and tell? Natural Order? (Still 2 of those spells rely on creatures). You want a 1 mana 5 damage lightning bolt?
anyone who plays the format knows why those are the most played cards. its because they're the most universal answers (or find the answers) to the varied threats that decks play. in the 3 drop slot alone (off the top of my head), the threats can be geist, smiter, liliana, knight of the reliquary, domri, pestermite, exarch, clique, finks, blade splicer, brimaz (or whatever his name is), master of etherium, etched champion, and i'm sure there are more. there is no one right answer to all of them. and because they're been printing fewer and fewer "good" answers and more and more varied threats, it becomes even more important that your answers are catch alls.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
It' funny how power level is often associated with how many powerful blue spells are available. And I'm ok with modern not being blue dominant. I'd prefer a 4 or 5 on the power scale because interactions would be board based instead of spell based.
Modern can't become more powerful without Standard also becoming more powerful, and Modern can't become less powerful without banning a stupid amount of cards.
Modern's fine where it is. Many different decks are thriving, and they'll continue to do so for as long as WotC keeps any one deck from becoming objectively better than the others.
Modern can't become more powerful without Standard also becoming more powerful, and Modern can't become less powerful without banning a stupid amount of cards.
Modern's fine where it is. Many different decks are thriving, and they'll continue to do so for as long as WotC keeps any one deck from becoming objectively better than the others.
Well that is only true right now. There is nothing stopping Wizards from saying that cards from supplemental products become Modern legal too if they wish to do that some time in the future. It would circumvent the problem of relying on Standard to get new cards.
Sets specially made for Modern would also be a possibility. Commander already gets these so they could do the same for Modern.
Even dredge wins with creatures. Exactly what is it that you want? Ancestral Recall? Show and tell? Natural Order? (Still 2 of those spells rely on creatures). You want a 1 mana 5 damage lightning bolt?
I second Tormod's concerns with this conversation: A lot of the terms being thrown around are very unclear. What exactly does "power level" mean? Reading over these comments, it appears that everyone has a slightly different definition of power level, which is why this conversation is so meandering right now.
One possible starting point, which is similar to what Tormod pointed to earlier, is the "fundamental turn". Generally speaking, the FT is when a deck accomplishes its game plan. That is itself a tricky concept because the exact criteria for an FT varies from deck to deck and gameplan to gameplan. An aggro deck might define its FT when it wins, typically around turn 4. A control deck might assign an FT when the board is stable, which would also typically be around turn 4 or 5. But this could be a good starting point because it's a little less abstract than a 0-10 scale with no intermediate definitions.
The problem with the FT, at least for me, is that it doesn't really account for individual card quality/power, nor the quality/power of synergies in the format. The average Jund vs. UWR Control matchup in Modern is not much faster than most Standard matchups, even if the card power within those decks is substantially higher. Similarly, the FT of Modern cheeri0s or Griselbrand Reanimator is roughly the same (maybe a turn slower) than many all-in Legacy combo decks, but the individual cards are just much stronger in Legacy.
So I feel that the best place to start is actually with card quality. Sure, card power is secretly just as relative as an FT (Goyf is only considered powerful because there are thousands of *****ty bears out there to compare him to). But then again, it's much easier to separate the power level of Goyf from the power level of Grizzly Bear than it is to separate the FTs of Miracles and UWR Control.
That returns to Tormod's distinction between cantrips. In a power level X format, then Y is the best cantrip. We can do that for removal (Lightning Bolt vs. Lightning Strike), countermagic (Counterspell, Mana Lea, Dissolve, etc.), manafixing, etc. And that method gives us a scale that we can build from. This, I think, is the best place to start.
I think power level is directly tied to the number of competitive archetypes and the variety among them. The current standard, for example, is low power level because there are only really three decks - Midrange (Gxx), Tap Out Control (UWx), and Synergistic Midrange(Black Devotion) and therefore feels redundant due to little variation in overall strategy and ways to approach it.
Legacy on the other hand, presents many more varied competitive archetypes and more ways for players to approach the game and choose something they really enjoy. Which Modern is starting to lack, due to the design of new cards being either not powerful enough to impact the format or compete with the cards of yesteryear or be powerful enough on their own to promote a new deck/style/strategy. I say that completely aware that their have been powerful cards printed recently - Snapcaster Mage, Liliana, Deathrite Shaman, and so on - but none of the powerful cards have inspired anything new. Which is the difference between Legacy and Modern. There are just more ways and more options to play cards in that format. We can say Modern is diverse, but playing a Twin deck is playing a Twin deck no matter what flavor, whereas Storm and Tin-Fins play completely differently while utilizing many of the same cards.
Modern really needs more varied powerful cards that can promote or be built upon to increase variety, but necessarily individually powerful 'goodstuff' cards.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I have always felt like Standard is kind of eliminating certain aspects of the game. Combo doesn't really exist (at least not a tier-1 combo anyways), and control has been on a decline. Honestly, I feel like they just don't like certain aspects of the game for whatever reasons they have, and are trying to phase it out. This is why I like Modern, because it's a format that allows this. I would love to play Legacy but it's expensive, so Modern it is. I like that it;s big enough to support everything. I definitely like it leaning more towards Legacy because I want all the archetypes to be open. I detest that someone is telling me how I should play the game, because they're not me and they don't know how I want to play.
I agree with those saying diversity is the element needed in Modern. I'm overall happy with the format but there are a number of interesting strategies from Legacy ( e.g. Stax ) that just don't have the required support cards.
Also, if Standard is headed into being a very low-powered format, then I might want to see, as others have suggested, sets designed for Modern and/or Modern gaining access to other format expansions. The Conspiracy spoilers are so much more interesting than what we're seeing on M15 so far. ( Though
"Council's Judgment" might as well be "Rigged Election" in any 1 vs. 1 format.
The way I define power level is, can a T1 Standard deck compete in Modern? Can a T1 Modern deck compete in Legacy? If not how close (i.e. how many cards away) are said decks.
With that said, I feel Modern is squarely between Standard and Legacy using that scale. Some where in the 4-6 area.
I wonder, if the 0-10 option was in scale, where the 6-10 crowd would have put there votes. 6 I feel is ok, 10 on the other hand... Lumping them together feels imbalanced for a poll such as this.
This is exactly how I feel. I voted 5 because I want it to be a 6 but not higher and I think the "6-10" option skews towards the high end in appearance. Couldn't the second poll have had 10 options?
More like Legacy. Really the thing I wanted most in Modern was just regular old counterspell, fact or fiction or Impulse. Probably more akin to Overextended.
I voted "in between" and "5", respectively. Leave Modern the way it is, please.
Here's where I stand: I don't like Legacy because of the (what I consider) degenerate combos. I don't like Standard because (at least currently) its metagame is dull as doornails. So I play Modern, which has a pretty clear cap on power level, but which allows many, many more decks to compete.
Modern exists as a middle ground between the two formats. That's where it should stay.
I do want slightly better counter magic (counterspell) and slightly better cantrips (reprint Opt!), but honestly one of the things I really don't want is one color objectively more powerful than all the others over a long period of time in Modern. There will be spikes that last for a few months when a color is quite dominant, and that is actually a sign of a healthy metagame, but if it lasts for a year or years then I start to loose interest. All you have to do is look at the prices of ABUR Duals to see what color is king and the trend has been going for a long time*. I don't want that to happen with Modern.
I also think some of the combos in Legacy are stupid good (Show and Tell) and even if they are kept in check by the ubiquitous Force of Will, I still think it is just stupid.
*I do not follow Legacy closely, so I am speaking in broad strokes.
It's funny you mention show and tell because I would claim that show and tell is kept in check more by discard and karakas than FOW, it is a pretty strong deck against opposing counterspells usually.
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Poll one has the mid point winning by 52%.
Then in poll 2 the majority want a more powerful format.
Cant have it both ways.
Power level is anything to do with power level of modern. It was also an attempt to re-route the topic to stay on track in a friendly manner, without having to hand out an infraction for flaming or spam to the person who got the topic off track in the first place. Once more, keep the topic on track, please.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
I hope that Wizards doesn't turn Modern into Legacy without the Reserved List. It was intended to be in-between Standard and Legacy. It was not intended to be Legacy.
While I don't think that Modern should become Legacy, moving its power-level up is something that I would like.
The thing is that most of the people in the first poll probably want Modern to be closer to Legacy in power-level, but not as powerful as Legacy. The problem is that the third option in the first poll includes all but the most extreme versions of the first and second options.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Is power level 9 lotus petal, city of traitor, show and tell emrakrul?
Do people know what they are asking for?
I know that I have worded it poorly but sadly and for some reason I cannot edit polls once they are created so I was forced to make a second one that isnt't skewed in one direction.
10-6 = closer to legacy
5 = right in the middle and between both formats
4-0 = closer to Standard
Once this thread is old then maybe another poll could be made to see where the sweet spot is exactly but for now this thread is only here to see the general direction in which people think Modern should develop.
Since you're having trouble defining it, I'll take a go:
Power level 1-2 = turn 6 kill, what's a cantrip?
Power level 3-4 = turn 5 kill, no cantrip, but you can scry...
Power level 5 = turn 4 kill, serum vision is your best cantrip
Power level 6-7 = turn 3 kill, preordain is your best cantrip
Power level 8-9 = turn 2 kill, ponder is your best cantirp
Power level 10 = turn 1 kill, brainstorm is your best cantrip
Ok go
Modern is a turn 4 format, decks cannot win before this point consistently and the flow of the match is mostly decided at this point.
Legacy, despite what many who aren't familiar with it will say, is a turn 3 format. that's when TNN is cast, Batterskull get's dropped, Miracles untaps with top and counterbalance, etc. Decks can win quicker than this, but the prominence of FOW keeps those decks from being prominent.
Edit:
I figured I'd also put some of the scariest opening sequences in Legacy.
T1: Deathrite Shaman, T2: Lilliana with Daze/Force backup, possibly Wasteland
T1: Delver, T2: Tarmogoyf, Daze/Force backup
T1: Duress, comboing off on Turn 3
T1: Vial, T2: Rishadan Port, Thalia
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
I agree that currently modern has powerful options but as your list shows, the majority of options are creature based. So while I don't think modern needs to get more powerful I would like to see a shift in new blocks towards more powerful spells rather than creatures, more like legacy.
Freedom is slavery!
Ignorance is strength!
Modern's fine where it is. Many different decks are thriving, and they'll continue to do so for as long as WotC keeps any one deck from becoming objectively better than the others.
Give Zaliki a CardI must have all the cats!
Well that is only true right now. There is nothing stopping Wizards from saying that cards from supplemental products become Modern legal too if they wish to do that some time in the future. It would circumvent the problem of relying on Standard to get new cards.
Sets specially made for Modern would also be a possibility. Commander already gets these so they could do the same for Modern.
I second Tormod's concerns with this conversation: A lot of the terms being thrown around are very unclear. What exactly does "power level" mean? Reading over these comments, it appears that everyone has a slightly different definition of power level, which is why this conversation is so meandering right now.
One possible starting point, which is similar to what Tormod pointed to earlier, is the "fundamental turn". Generally speaking, the FT is when a deck accomplishes its game plan. That is itself a tricky concept because the exact criteria for an FT varies from deck to deck and gameplan to gameplan. An aggro deck might define its FT when it wins, typically around turn 4. A control deck might assign an FT when the board is stable, which would also typically be around turn 4 or 5. But this could be a good starting point because it's a little less abstract than a 0-10 scale with no intermediate definitions.
The problem with the FT, at least for me, is that it doesn't really account for individual card quality/power, nor the quality/power of synergies in the format. The average Jund vs. UWR Control matchup in Modern is not much faster than most Standard matchups, even if the card power within those decks is substantially higher. Similarly, the FT of Modern cheeri0s or Griselbrand Reanimator is roughly the same (maybe a turn slower) than many all-in Legacy combo decks, but the individual cards are just much stronger in Legacy.
So I feel that the best place to start is actually with card quality. Sure, card power is secretly just as relative as an FT (Goyf is only considered powerful because there are thousands of *****ty bears out there to compare him to). But then again, it's much easier to separate the power level of Goyf from the power level of Grizzly Bear than it is to separate the FTs of Miracles and UWR Control.
That returns to Tormod's distinction between cantrips. In a power level X format, then Y is the best cantrip. We can do that for removal (Lightning Bolt vs. Lightning Strike), countermagic (Counterspell, Mana Lea, Dissolve, etc.), manafixing, etc. And that method gives us a scale that we can build from. This, I think, is the best place to start.
Legacy on the other hand, presents many more varied competitive archetypes and more ways for players to approach the game and choose something they really enjoy. Which Modern is starting to lack, due to the design of new cards being either not powerful enough to impact the format or compete with the cards of yesteryear or be powerful enough on their own to promote a new deck/style/strategy. I say that completely aware that their have been powerful cards printed recently - Snapcaster Mage, Liliana, Deathrite Shaman, and so on - but none of the powerful cards have inspired anything new. Which is the difference between Legacy and Modern. There are just more ways and more options to play cards in that format. We can say Modern is diverse, but playing a Twin deck is playing a Twin deck no matter what flavor, whereas Storm and Tin-Fins play completely differently while utilizing many of the same cards.
Modern really needs more varied powerful cards that can promote or be built upon to increase variety, but necessarily individually powerful 'goodstuff' cards.
That's what power level of a format is.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I agree with those saying diversity is the element needed in Modern. I'm overall happy with the format but there are a number of interesting strategies from Legacy ( e.g. Stax ) that just don't have the required support cards.
Also, if Standard is headed into being a very low-powered format, then I might want to see, as others have suggested, sets designed for Modern and/or Modern gaining access to other format expansions. The Conspiracy spoilers are so much more interesting than what we're seeing on M15 so far. ( Though
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
With that said, I feel Modern is squarely between Standard and Legacy using that scale. Some where in the 4-6 area.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Here's where I stand: I don't like Legacy because of the (what I consider) degenerate combos. I don't like Standard because (at least currently) its metagame is dull as doornails. So I play Modern, which has a pretty clear cap on power level, but which allows many, many more decks to compete.
Modern exists as a middle ground between the two formats. That's where it should stay.
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
I also think some of the combos in Legacy are stupid good (Show and Tell) and even if they are kept in check by the ubiquitous Force of Will, I still think it is just stupid.
*I do not follow Legacy closely, so I am speaking in broad strokes.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!