As the thread title says it is the problem that Modern has. It is the middle format right now and therefore it is not clear where the power level of Modern should actually be.
Its the reason many people think that cards should be unbanned that they think are perfectly while other think they are "too powerful" for Modern.
I made this thread with a poll so everybody can voice their opinion on the matter so we can see what the majority of people actually think about that since the question has to be asked eventually how powerful Modern should be as a format.
I personally lean towards Legacy. Modern was created so it doesn't is restricted by the reserved list like Legacy is. I think it would be perfectly fine for Modern to take the place of Legacy some day. It doesn't have to be suddenly. A gradual increase in power by printing more powerful cards/unbanning cards is all I would ask for.
EDIT: Also everybody who thinks that Modern should be somewhere in between it would be nice if you could write where exactly you draw the line and how you imagine Modern looking like.
Imagine Legacy being a 10 and Standard being 0.
Don't turn the thread into a legacy vs modern thread. Comparisons are fine, but don't turn it into "Whos better?" contest. ~Lantern Seconded. Infractions are going to be handed out faster than Blazing Shoal infect if this discussion gets out of hand. -ktkenshinx-
There are so many moving parts in "power level" that it is hard to distill into a linear progression. But if forced to talk in the most simple terms, if legacy is a 10 and standard is a 0, I would like modern to be a 6 or 7.
I would like to see modern stay at a turn four format. I really dont want to flip a coin and have that decide game one, which is very possible in legacy. I would like to see combo return but that is probably wishful thinking at this point. But I do not want modern to become the weak suase that standard can become.
It should be it's own format, but if we're talking comparisons, I think it should be closer to Standard than Legacy. People who want Legacy-lite should advocate for Overextended, which starts from Invasion block. So here is what I think.
Standard: 1 (usually the scale is 1-10, there is no 0)
Modern: 6
Overextended: 8
Legacy: 10
I appreciate you making this. I voted Legacy, but not because I have any want or interest in Legacy or "Legacy-lite" but because being closer to Legacy makes Modern closer to Old Seven Year Extended, which is where it really should be. That format had many different representatives from many different archetypes as a well as unique strategies among them. Want control? Counter-Top, Draw-Go, Death Cloud, Faeries, Want combo? Dredge, Storm, Project X, Elves, Enduring Ideal, Tooth and Nail. Want Aggro? Burn, Affinity, Zoo, RDW, Death and Taxes. Want Ramp? Tron, 12 Post. Midrange? Junk, Rock, Loam, Solar Flare. That's where Modern should be.
For clarification - I'm referencing Extended from the period without Brainstorm (whatever came after Masques, I think) until about Lorwyn.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
There are so many moving parts in "power level" that it is hard to distill into a linear progression. But if forced to talk in the most simple terms, if legacy is a 10 and standard is a 0, I would like modern to be a 6 or 7.
Yeah added that to the OP so people have a scale to measure.
I really don't think there should be an inbetween option here :/
I was actually thinking about leaving that option off but I know that there are also people who dont like the extremes of either format and I didnt want to leave them in the dust with no choice. They can say on a scale where exactly Modern should be.
It should be it's own format, but if we're talking comparisons, I think it should be closer to Standard than Legacy. People who want Legacy-lite should advocate for Overextended, which starts from Invasion block. So here is what I think.
Standard: 0
Modern: 6
Overextended: 8
Legacy: 10
Advocating for Overextended shouldn't be a thing because Overextended isn't a thing.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
If Modern is a 6 and Overextended is an 8, I want a 7. I don't want Modern to just be Legacy-lite. But I want strong card-draw, good library manipulation, strong counterspells, several good tribal decks, , some turn 3 combos, and an overall higher power-level. However, Overextended pushed this too far. Turn 2 kills and cards like Mental Misstep being unbanned is too close to, and in some cases even more powerful than Legacy for me to enjoy. But Overextended with a larger banned list would work for me.
This poll and thread is a time bomb waiting to explode. The wording and phrasing is all wrong.
It first assumes that there is something wrong with modern and that that something needs to change which is a fallacy.
Have you considered that Modern is fine and people should just play and let the players drive the format?
If you think that then you can vote for "in between" and "5" because that is probably where Modern is right now. Between Standard and Legacy with space on both sides of the spectrum.
This poll and thread is a time bomb waiting to explode. The wording and phrasing is all wrong.
It first assumes that there is something wrong with modern and that that something needs to change which is a fallacy.
Have you considered that Modern is fine and people should just play and let the players drive the format?
DITTO
This thread is a really poor idea. It's going to lead to lots of people who don't know anything about legacy attempting to compare it to modern for various reasons either for or agaisnt the power level.
Modern is actually pretty okay right now. It's better than it has been in a long time. The thread is just going to be lots of poorly phrased and even less thought out arguments with even more wild accusations.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
This poll and thread is a time bomb waiting to explode. The wording and phrasing is all wrong.
It first assumes that there is something wrong with modern and that that something needs to change which is a fallacy.
Have you considered that Modern is fine and people should just play and let the players drive the format?
If you think that then you can vote for "in between" and "5" because that is probably where Modern is right now. Between Standard and Legacy with space on both sides of the spectrum.
The problem is the questions stinks and its being driven by an agenda. Leave modern alone, and stop trying to campaign that there's something wrong with it.
This poll and thread is a time bomb waiting to explode. The wording and phrasing is all wrong.
It first assumes that there is something wrong with modern and that that something needs to change which is a fallacy.
Have you considered that Modern is fine and people should just play and let the players drive the format?
If you think that then you can vote for "in between" and "5" because that is probably where Modern is right now. Between Standard and Legacy with space on both sides of the spectrum.
The problem is the questions stinks and its being driven by an agenda. Leave modern alone, and stop trying to campaign that there's something wrong with it.
This thread is meant to see where Modern should be headed as a format when asking the players about it since discussion about the banlist is difficult when you don't know what the majority of people actually think about where the power level should be.
Should it replace Legacy at some point, should it find it's on place or should it be a just place with a slightly higher power level for people who dont want play Standard anymore? That is all Im asking for in this thread and every option is there so no group of people is left out from voting and voicing their opinion on the matter.
There is no hidden agenda.
As for myself, Legacy without the reserved list, more or less. Not that I'd want any drastic changes: I'm more or less happy with how things are now, but, in another ten years, there will be an inevitable power creep that will come with an ever-larger card pool.
I don't see Modern as an Extended replacement: I think a longer, more-slowly-rotating format is still needed and will become more pressing as time goes on.
I am completely happy with the formats power level there is a varied metagame of which decks appear to have started coming and going in cycles. It does not need a 'change' to its power level after so long spent crafting this metagame. People who play the format are rewarded and both standard and legacy exist so it makes zero sense to make modern a competing format, it should have its own identity.
I have not played Standard in many many years. I do not see that changing. So I can only really answer on the "Closer to Legacy" side of the question.
I feel like Modern sits in the Shadow of the two big apexes of this game. Standard is the juggernaut, casting it's long shadow over the format by being a filter for both cards and players. It limits the growth of the format as Modern can not stand alone on its own, it must first answer to Standard and then after that, its own players. This restriction does make it feel less like Legacy, but the power level of Standard can be tweaked with printings and cycling. Modern finds itself praying that the cards it needs to affect the format trickle down the vine while also having limiters on the strength of those new cards that are printed so they do not affect Standard and whatever part of the cycle it is in.
Legacy casts it's shadow from the other direction. Legacy players tend to be use to far more power than the format offers. This means that the player base will look down it's nose at the format for it's lack of stack interaction, its reliance on creatures and it's overall weaker card pool. This I feel does not create an issue per say, it is the effect this has on the people that want to play legacy but can not afford it that have moved into modern as a substitute that causes the issues. Most of the old guard are not playing Modern, they have no real effect on it, but the younger players look to find sanctuary in it. They see Legacy and think "Why can't we have an affordable version of that?". This leads to people pushing for the mistakes of the past to be repeated and pushed into modern just so they do not have to buy the dual lands. (I know, it hurts)
I feel like Modern has yet to really find it's feet. But I also wish to see a pull away from "Should it be more like A or B" style of questions. Modern needs to find its own feet. I remember when Legacy and Vintage had the same Banned list. The split gave both a chance to find there own place without the shackles of the other. I honestly feel like, to find it's own feet Modern needs to be released from the shackles of Standard, cast it's away from Legacy and become a pillar all of it's own. It's getting there, just needs some more work yet.
i vote for closer to legacy, and eventually legacy replacement. MTG is really not that big of a game (comparing to let's say, WOW), and with so many formats, namely two non-rotating formats(if you count vintage it's 3), standard, EDH, draft, sealed, it really splits the player base. like in one city i play in limited is the biggest thing, ppl draft everyday, play standard maybe once a week. where in other cities, ppl play standard a lot but not limited. when you have plenty of players that play all of these formats it doesnt make a difference, but as a modern player who isnt interested in either limited or standard, i have a hard time finding modern tournaments, especially with legacy diluting the player base. it's not that big of a game, it really doesnt need too many formats
the first question is bad. because somewhere in the middle can be both more like legacy or more like standard. so naturally, i voted somewhere in the middle, but then i voted for 10-6 on the power scale.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
the first question is bad. because somewhere in the middle can be both more like legacy or more like standard. so naturally, i voted somewhere in the middle, but then i voted for 10-6 on the power scale.
Also, when people usually describe something on a scale of, it is usually from 1-10, not from 0-10. I have never heard someone say 0-10 before.
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Its the reason many people think that cards should be unbanned that they think are perfectly while other think they are "too powerful" for Modern.
I made this thread with a poll so everybody can voice their opinion on the matter so we can see what the majority of people actually think about that since the question has to be asked eventually how powerful Modern should be as a format.
I personally lean towards Legacy. Modern was created so it doesn't is restricted by the reserved list like Legacy is. I think it would be perfectly fine for Modern to take the place of Legacy some day. It doesn't have to be suddenly. A gradual increase in power by printing more powerful cards/unbanning cards is all I would ask for.
EDIT: Also everybody who thinks that Modern should be somewhere in between it would be nice if you could write where exactly you draw the line and how you imagine Modern looking like.
Imagine Legacy being a 10 and Standard being 0.
Don't turn the thread into a legacy vs modern thread. Comparisons are fine, but don't turn it into "Whos better?" contest. ~Lantern
Seconded. Infractions are going to be handed out faster than Blazing Shoal infect if this discussion gets out of hand. -ktkenshinx-
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Standard: 1 (usually the scale is 1-10, there is no 0)
Modern: 6
Overextended: 8
Legacy: 10
For clarification - I'm referencing Extended from the period without Brainstorm (whatever came after Masques, I think) until about Lorwyn.
Yeah added that to the OP so people have a scale to measure.
I was actually thinking about leaving that option off but I know that there are also people who dont like the extremes of either format and I didnt want to leave them in the dust with no choice. They can say on a scale where exactly Modern should be.
Advocating for Overextended shouldn't be a thing because Overextended isn't a thing.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It first assumes that there is something wrong with modern and that that something needs to change which is a fallacy.
Have you considered that Modern is fine and people should just play and let the players drive the format?
If you think that then you can vote for "in between" and "5" because that is probably where Modern is right now. Between Standard and Legacy with space on both sides of the spectrum.
DITTO
This thread is a really poor idea. It's going to lead to lots of people who don't know anything about legacy attempting to compare it to modern for various reasons either for or agaisnt the power level.
Modern is actually pretty okay right now. It's better than it has been in a long time. The thread is just going to be lots of poorly phrased and even less thought out arguments with even more wild accusations.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
The problem is the questions stinks and its being driven by an agenda. Leave modern alone, and stop trying to campaign that there's something wrong with it.
This thread is meant to see where Modern should be headed as a format when asking the players about it since discussion about the banlist is difficult when you don't know what the majority of people actually think about where the power level should be.
Should it replace Legacy at some point, should it find it's on place or should it be a just place with a slightly higher power level for people who dont want play Standard anymore? That is all Im asking for in this thread and every option is there so no group of people is left out from voting and voicing their opinion on the matter.
There is no hidden agenda.
Modern replaced Extended, you can grapple with that one if you need something to wrap your head around.
Dang it Goyf
WBB/W TokensWB
WUBAd NauseamWUB
- Commander
WG Captain Sisay's LegendsWG
As for myself, Legacy without the reserved list, more or less. Not that I'd want any drastic changes: I'm more or less happy with how things are now, but, in another ten years, there will be an inevitable power creep that will come with an ever-larger card pool.
I don't see Modern as an Extended replacement: I think a longer, more-slowly-rotating format is still needed and will become more pressing as time goes on.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
I feel like Modern sits in the Shadow of the two big apexes of this game. Standard is the juggernaut, casting it's long shadow over the format by being a filter for both cards and players. It limits the growth of the format as Modern can not stand alone on its own, it must first answer to Standard and then after that, its own players. This restriction does make it feel less like Legacy, but the power level of Standard can be tweaked with printings and cycling. Modern finds itself praying that the cards it needs to affect the format trickle down the vine while also having limiters on the strength of those new cards that are printed so they do not affect Standard and whatever part of the cycle it is in.
Legacy casts it's shadow from the other direction. Legacy players tend to be use to far more power than the format offers. This means that the player base will look down it's nose at the format for it's lack of stack interaction, its reliance on creatures and it's overall weaker card pool. This I feel does not create an issue per say, it is the effect this has on the people that want to play legacy but can not afford it that have moved into modern as a substitute that causes the issues. Most of the old guard are not playing Modern, they have no real effect on it, but the younger players look to find sanctuary in it. They see Legacy and think "Why can't we have an affordable version of that?". This leads to people pushing for the mistakes of the past to be repeated and pushed into modern just so they do not have to buy the dual lands. (I know, it hurts)
I feel like Modern has yet to really find it's feet. But I also wish to see a pull away from "Should it be more like A or B" style of questions. Modern needs to find its own feet. I remember when Legacy and Vintage had the same Banned list. The split gave both a chance to find there own place without the shackles of the other. I honestly feel like, to find it's own feet Modern needs to be released from the shackles of Standard, cast it's away from Legacy and become a pillar all of it's own. It's getting there, just needs some more work yet.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
What is "power level?"
Can you define that before endorsing discussions of make-believe?
Also, when people usually describe something on a scale of, it is usually from 1-10, not from 0-10. I have never heard someone say 0-10 before.