MTG Salvation

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Quote from cfusionpm »

According to MTGGoldfish, Nahiri is currently the 33rd most played card and the 21st most played noncreature spell. Granted, that Lightning Bolt is #1 and in 47% of decks, Nahiri isn't terrible down at 8-9% of decks. Looking at a picture today, she meets every criteria to be a "staple," if we're using something like "top 50 cards played in Modern." While I may not agree with her strength, numbers are numbers.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/modern

Thanks for the reference.
I am just confused by the definition of staple.
Where is the official definition of this term?
If it means the most frequently played cards, or can be used in multiple type of decks, I do not understand why Nahiri does not meet the condition.

Or, Modern staple can only be top 3 cards : bolt, Goyf, snappy?

It's another one of those terms that differs from Magic player to Magic player. For instance, my personal definition of "staple" is a card that I buy if I want to be able to swap between decks at a moment's notice with minimal additional investment. So fetches, shocks, bolts, thoughtseize, remand, goyf, snapcaster, liliana, cryptic, fulminator, noble hierarch, etc. all count. I'm not sure about Nahiri, though Emrakul probably counts in my personal definition.

A staple by definition is something necessary for something else to exist. Food, water and shelter are staples to our existence. Remove any one of them and we fail to exist. Lightning bolt, Path to exile, Dismember, abrupt decay are staples as a group because they represent low costed removal. Tarmogoyf is the staple beatstick. Fetchlands are the staple mana fixing. A card like Nahiri, which has been around for a couple months and is found in a couple decks that will drop her the instant something better comes along is not in the same category. She fits the curve and ults quickly. That's why she is seeing play. She is a staple in the Jeskai Nahiri control deck but that doesn't make her a format staple. If she was banned tomorrow Modern would not cease to exist. Hell Jeskai control was a deck before her so while her iteration would die off, the vast majority of the deck would still exist, albeit at a lower tier.

Quote from damagecase »

A staple by definition is something necessary for something else to exist. Food, water and shelter are staples to our existence. Remove any one of them and we fail to exist. Lightning bolt, Path to exile, Dismember, abrupt decay are staples as a group because they represent low costed removal. Tarmogoyf is the staple beatstick. Fetchlands are the staple mana fixing. A card like Nahiri, which has been around for a couple months and is found in a couple decks that will drop her the instant something better comes along is not in the same category. She fits the curve and ults quickly. That's why she is seeing play. She is a staple in the Jeskai Nahiri control deck but that doesn't make her a format staple. If she was banned tomorrow Modern would not cease to exist. Hell Jeskai control was a deck before her so while her iteration would die off, the vast majority of the deck would still exist, albeit at a lower tier.

If Lightning Bolt or Goyf or LotV were banned tomorrow because it was found that the cards cause cancer in mice, it would kill Modern?

No. Hell no. If all of the above were banned, the format would not suddenly evaporate. A lot of people would be (rightly) pissed, a lot of people would sell their collections. But the format would not suddenly cease to exist.

Nahiri is one of the Top 35 cards played in the format.

A more fair definition would be a card that is found in decks over the course of many transitions. Bolt is a staple because it saw play when Modern was born and it will see play after the next ban list. Snapcaster has been played in Modern since Innistrad, and will likely see play in the future. It is too early to say if Nahiri is there, but she is one of the most played cards presently.

But the game would fundamentally altered from its original inception. No bolt, no jund or burn. Two decks that are pillars of the format. The format would not die purely because it was never a live to begin with. The idea of an staple is an analogy, if it is anything at all.

And I never said anything about how much Nahiri is played. Nor do I really care. She's nothing that special. She offers inevitability to a deck that sorely lacked it. The only thing it has going for it is its not good enough to have to worry about a ban.

You are right though. We need a better, clearer definition of what a "staple" should be. I think you're on the right track. Number played in the format, across one or more tier one decks, for a number of years. But also it must affect the format in a broad manor, like what bolt does or goyf does.

Posting here to get other people's opinion on the "tango lands". Right now I only have a single Prairie Stream, and it's being used in the Azorius Titan deck. At present, I don't need more prarie stream or any other tango land because the three active modern decks that I use don't need them. However, it crossed my mind that they might be useful later on in other decks... so my question is this - would these lands tend to go up in price or stay the same a few months from now? I plan to get a playset of the others on next month's paycheck.

Quote from The Fluff »

Posting here to get other people's opinion on the "tango lands". Right now I only have a single Prairie Stream, and it's being used in the Azorius Titan deck. At present, I don't need more prarie stream or any other tango land because the three active modern decks that I use don't need them. However, it crossed my mind that they might be useful later on in other decks... so my question is this - would these lands tend to go up in price or stay the same a few months from now? I plan to get a playset of the others on next month's paycheck.

Doubt they will go up much. They are worse than shocklands in the vast majority of decks and only a few niche archetypes (like Valakut strategies) make any use of them. They can't reliably come in untapped and are guaranteed to come in tapped turns 1 and 2. They have a place in Standard and are great for Commander, but will hardly find any other home in Modern. If another strategy that can utilize them comes up, then maybe. But until then, Cinder Glade is probably the only card that will hold or grow in value.

BUT, given that they're so cheap, there's almost no downside to picking them up. I have them in just about every Commander deck that can use the colors.

Both shocklands and checklands are much better and they're not really fetching astronomical prices, so yeah... doubtful.

Thanks to all who gave comment on the tango lands price. I like them because they have basic land types, and can be fetched. Will buy at least 2 of each while they're cheap. :>

I win an ebay action of 4x Brushland from 10th by 20.00€, i dont know why but this painlands are very hard to find in europe, since Eldrazi decks old painlands seems difficult to find in good condition/price, no one has a playset on magiccardmarket and there are like 40-50 units by each version avalible so i has to search others webs

Is this a good purchase? Should i invest on those old painlands? I also have a playset of Karplusan Forest from 10th that i pick up by 8.00€ playset some months ago, now are like 25-30.00€ ...

Quote from blacklotus »

I win an ebay action of 4x Brushland from 10th by 20.00E, i dont know why but this painlands are very hard to find in europe, since Eldrazi decks old painlands seems difficult to find in good condition/price, no one has a playset on magiccardmarket and there are like 40-50 units by each version avalible so i has to search others webs

Is this a good purchase? Should i invest on those old painlands? I also have a playset of Karplusan Forest from 10th that i pick up by 8.00E playset some months ago, now are like 25-30.00E ...

They were a great investment when the floor was low - now that the buy in is much higher I'd avoid them unless you intend to play them.

Might be a good time to pick up Nahiri again if you need her, I have a feeling she is going to show up again in the top 8 and even if she doesn't it is being speculated that Emrakul is returning in the next set. If true, this is going to greatly increase her price due to standard. While she isn't at rock bottom any more, this might be a nice spec for someone looking to pick up some good trade fodder to trade with standard players for other good cards that are rotating out or have rotated out and are modern playable.

Quote from damagecase »

Frankly anyone calling Nahiri a "modern staple" doesn't know what the term means and has proven their ignorance. She may be a staple in couple decks but she is far far far away from a format staple.

Is Liliana not a staple in modern then since she is only played in a few decks?

Why is Linvala, Keeper of Silence so expensive? What deck plays her?

No I would not call LotV a staple.

I would caution people to not confuse staple cards with niche cards. Being either can cause a card's price to inflate, but there is where the similarities end.

I'm not saying LotV isn't important. Part of being a staple, I feel, is being the best card at what what said card does. I would argue that LotV is the only card that does what it does. That's why I'd classify it as a high end niche card, which consequently is what Nahiri is looking to become. I feel like a staple almost has to beat other cards out. Lightning Bolt, Path, Goyf, all are played because they are almost always the best card for the slot, though there are multiple cards that could be used in their place.

Quote from damagecase »

I'm not saying LotV isn't important. Part of being a staple, I feel, is being the best card at what what said card does. I would argue that LotV is the only card that does what it does. That's why I'd classify it as a high end niche card, which consequently is what Nahiri is looking to become. I feel like a staple almost has to beat other cards out. Lightning Bolt, Path, Goyf, all are played because they are almost always the best card for the slot, though there are multiple cards that could be used in their place.

Cards that aren't staples with this reasoning that are heavily played in the format: liliana of the veil (19th most played), Nahiri, the Harbinger, Abrupt Decay, Terminate and Chord of Calling. All of these cards are among the top 50 most played cards in the format. So in other words, your definition of a "staple" is super narrow and doesn't work. Your definition is closer to a "versatile" card.


(http://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/modern/full/all) for the list of highly played cards.

Quote from ElAzar »

Quote from Tanukimo »

Why is Linvala, Keeper of Silence so expensive? What deck plays her?

Nearly every white duel-commander or highlander deck.

One printing Mythic from a 3rd set as well.

Basically a non-factor right now in Modern.

*Regarding Staples, I get a bit upset every time I see it. It's basically semantics and no 2 people in the world will agree 100% on what the staples of the format are. If I played at an LGS with 8 players and 4 of them were on Mono Green Devotion and 1 on Elves, I would be hard pressed to not call Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx a staple. Is Karn Liberated a staple? Is Kitchen Finks? What about Stony Silence? Mox Opal? I may refer to staples as the cards that are "commonly" played in Modern, but I never try to push my definition on others. Just my 2 cents.

Quote from damagecase »

I'm not saying LotV isn't important. Part of being a staple, I feel, is being the best card at what what said card does. I would argue that LotV is the only card that does what it does. That's why I'd classify it as a high end niche card, which consequently is what Nahiri is looking to become. I feel like a staple almost has to beat other cards out. Lightning Bolt, Path, Goyf, all are played because they are almost always the best card for the slot, though there are multiple cards that could be used in their place.

Being a staple has nothing to do with the card relative to replacement, but instead with the card relative to the format. LotV is a format staple.

I generally think of a staple as something that if it were banned would significantly change the face of the format and how the majority build and play. banning Nykthos would not change anything for me, I only use it in my casual EDH, and nobody really thinks about it when building decks that don't use it. I don't play Lily or Goyf, but as a Tron player, either one being banned would decimate my best matchup. but that is just me

What happens to modern as a format without LotV or Nahari? The answer is nothing. A couple decks become less good but the format remains the same. Now what happens if you remove bolt or tarmogoyf? The entire dynamic of the format changes. Niche cards don't do that. It doesn't matter how many decks a card is in, it matters what the impact is on the format. A new card making a tier 2 deck a tier one deck does not mean that card is staple. Now if said card generated a new archetype or create a tier deck from nothing, then I'd say it had a chance at being staple.

Quote from damagecase »

What happens to modern as a format without LotV or Nahari? The answer is nothing. A couple decks become less good but the format remains the same. Now what happens if you remove bolt or tarmogoyf? The entire dynamic of the format changes. Niche cards don't do that. It doesn't matter how many decks a card is in, it matters what the impact is on the format. A new card making a tier 2 deck a tier one deck does not mean that card is staple. Now if said card generated a new archetype or create a tier deck from nothing, then I'd say it had a chance at being staple.

Banning Liliana would remove a tier 1 deck that has 9% of the metagame (Jund) as well as Abzan Midrange and some Grixis lists. Removing about 12% (maybe more?) of the metagame and invalidating multiple decks is a very large change. A Tarmogoyf ban would have less of an impact than a Liliana ban. If you think Tarmogoyf is a staple, there's no logical way to think LotV isn't.

And I'm not arguing that Nahiri is a staple. She's not. LotV is.

You speak as though those decks would fall into oblivion. They wouldn't. The meta would change a bit but I don't think it would amount to a 12% shift.

Being a staple shouldn't be based entirely on how many are played in the format. Rather how said card defines the format. When you say a card is the best 2 drop in the game, that is staple. Now, could you make an argument that LotV is the best 3 drop, sure, but I don't know if she is as clearly as Tarmogoyf is the best 2 drop. And LotV isn't really even the gold standard for planeswalkers, just black planeswalkers. As for Nahiri, well there are a lot of really good 4 drops.

Jund existed before LotV it would exist after. I think you're confusing LotV with lightning bolt.

Quote from damagecase »

Jund existed before LotV it would exist after. I think you're confusing LotV with lightning bolt.

It existed with Bloodbraid Elf at that time. I actually believe that Jund could live without Lightning Bolt moreso than Liliana of the Veil. Look at Junk Midrange. It has to have Liliana, but does fine without Bolt. You could even do a BGRw deck if Lightning Bolt was not around. It would affect the format much more than "Jund" itself. There is no card that shares a single similarity with Liliana of the Veil in all of Magic. (The closest being Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict, both of which are not legal in Modern.)