as far as my gaming hobby goes, if you must know, my first playstation was a gift from my aunt. the only games i had for it were Final Fantasy VII and Harvest Moon: Back to Nature, which both had more than enough gameplay to keep me busy(i was 9 at the time). my PS2 was a christmas present. four years after it had been released. by that time, a lot of the good games were only $5-$20. the first console i bought was a PS3 a couple years after it was released. i'm patient and can wait until games are only $20 before i buy them. i see no point in buying a new release game for $50-$60 when i know it'll drop to around $20 a year or so after it's released.
It is pretty rare for popular AAA titles to go down to as little as $20 even a year later. That is especially true if they have DLC. Witcher 3 is almost exactly a year old and it is still $35-$40 new, and if you want to play the DLC (which is amazing in this case) you are adding even more. Some titles age worse than others...you might be able to pick up Star Wars Battlefront in a year for $25 since it's popularity has dropp.ed quite a bit
so lets see here: 300(ps3)+300(ps4)+$40(fallout4, only game i have for ps4)= $640. now ps3 games: $20x15= $300. $640+$300= $940. still less than a tier 2 deck.
I actually disagree with your premise that MTG is one of the more expensive hobbies, but I can sort of support the console gaming as being cheaper (depending on how you compare). I sold out of my MTGO collection for cash (+some credit) about a year ago and with that I was able to play with a few hundred, buy a new PS4 and still use the rest to cover 75% of our moving fees. I was shocked, but I also had cards that I had bought for pennies years ago which gained a lot, so it is hard to compare.
The problem is your standard for gaming is the most casual of casual console gamers (I am in that boat myself, though I spend a little more than you), is not analogous to building most tier 2 Modern decks. You build tiered Modern decks to compete on some level, even if it is only at FNM. Even casual console gamers who compete with other randos online have to add an additional PS+ monthly fee, and many feel specialized controlers and good headsets are part of that. You might even add in some portion of your highspeed connection, since online gaming puts a real demand on your connection. The level that you (and me) game at would be more analogous to the casual MTG player who can play with some theme decks and the odd single or booster pack. I took time off from paying attention to magic and played for a year and a half without paying anything. Was I making tier 2 Extended decks? No, but I was playing the hell out of my mono black Rogue tribal deck that had no rares in it, and mining by back collection for gems that I hadn't tried yet. The last PS3 game I bought was Dragon Age Inquisition when it first came out (didn't have my ps4 yet), but I have logged scores of hours on it since, playing old classics like the Mass Effect trilogy, Skyrim, and Fallout 3. I even pulled out Orange Box at one point, though only to find that the disc was not reliably playable due to a scratch. That seems pretty similar to how I played casual magic.
Please do not call D&D cheap. Have you seen the price of books? I've got PDFs of all the 3.5 stuff, and it's around 13gigs. Each book can go for 20 bucks and there are soooooooo many books.
True, but I have been playing tabletop RPGs for decades and have gone through periods when all I could or was willing to spend was enough to get the most basic elements, some graph paper, and a mechanical pencil. Hell, the 5th edition D&D ruleset is so robust, simple, and flexible that all I have bought are the PHB, DMG, and MM. On the other hand I can fully backup how expensive it can be. I went deep into Fantasy Flight's 3rd Edition Warhammer FRPG, and that system is so reliant on the high quality gaming accessories that went with it that it would be very limiting to only get the compiled box set.
The floor for video games is much higher with the need for a decent computer or console, a good screen to play it on, peripherals, and games. The floor for Magic is a duel deck or a couple intro decks. The ceiling on Magic is much higher with rotations and constant switching of T1 decks to have the best 75 for the week at any given tournament. Not to mention travel times if you're not just playing FNM (which isn't really competitive).
What I like about Modern and Legacy though is that they have low upkeep costs. Once you build into the format with something to play, it's pretty inexpensive to expand and always gain options.
The floor for video games is much higher with the need for a decent computer or console, a good screen to play it on, peripherals, and games. The floor for Magic is a duel deck or a couple intro decks. The ceiling on Magic is much higher with rotations and constant switching of T1 decks to have the best 75 for the week at any given tournament. Not to mention travel times if you're not just playing FNM (which isn't really competitive).
The ceiling on video games can be as high as you could possibly want it - from time investments on professional teams (years and full time job+ time commitments), to $15k+ rarities in the collectors markets. ALL hobbies have different levels of price and expense - I'm not sure what comparing magic to other hobbies is really doing to arguing anyone's point.
Got another question. Wondering Basilisk Collar priced high right now.. a near mint is almost 9 dollars at SCG. Is there a deck in Modern that uses the card? Thanks.
Got another question. Wondering Basilisk Collar priced high right now.. a near mint is almost 9 dollars at SCG. Is there a deck in Modern that uses the card? Thanks.
I think that has got to be EDH driven. I know that is what I use my copies for. It is also one of those cards that is casual sexy enough to drive the price up. It has been a pretty steady grower for the last three years.
It is also a card that looks plausibly good enough and is old enough to be a ripe target for a buyout, though I don't think that is the case. I think it is just a card that long term speculators see as a long term sleeper card that could be the next Doubling Season or Crucible of Worlds in two years. They're probably not far off either.
In the case of video games the logic on what people spend to be competitive is a bit misleading, as equipment is very standardized for competitive play now and players aren't restricted from content simply because they are missing a high quality headset. In magic it's fully possible not to even be able to play a deck at all without a specific card against another player with any chance of winning because the card in question is extremely costly to purchase. In PC gaming the worst that can happen is someone has a stereo headset vs a surround sound one, which makes very little difference in the long run since most game worthy PCs already have virtual surround sound. And if we are going to go down the lines of comparing a business / every day computer to a gaming computer we might as well be comparing ducks to oranges.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If we're talking hobbies, I'd put plastic model kits as being far cheaper than playing competitive Magic, so long as you haven't hit the "in the market for an airbrush" point.
Especially if you're into Gundam plamo since that stuff is sufficiently presentable OOB so as to not require buying the usual painting supplies (ALSO ENDLESS HOURS OF FUN TO POSE UP UNTIL YOU BREAK IT).
In the case of video games the logic on what people spend to be competitive is a bit misleading, as equipment is very standardized for competitive play now and players aren't restricted from content simply because they are missing a high quality headset. In magic it's fully possible not to even be able to play a deck at all without a specific card against another player with any chance of winning because the card in question is extremely costly to purchase. In PC gaming the worst that can happen is someone has a stereo headset vs a surround sound one, which makes very little difference in the long run since most game worthy PCs already have virtual surround sound. And if we are going to go down the lines of comparing a business / every day computer to a gaming computer we might as well be comparing ducks to oranges.
Again though, these comparisons are meaningless. You can be EXTREMELY competitive in Magic with very little time investment if you are able to naturally take to the game and have fundamental understandings of strategies in the game - with videogames most people are unable to approach anything considered top tier competitive without devoting thousands of hours to practice. I have the money to pay for video games sure, but I don't have near the time investment necessary to ever consider competing seriously.
In the case of video games the logic on what people spend to be competitive is a bit misleading, as equipment is very standardized for competitive play now and players aren't restricted from content simply because they are missing a high quality headset. In magic it's fully possible not to even be able to play a deck at all without a specific card against another player with any chance of winning because the card in question is extremely costly to purchase. In PC gaming the worst that can happen is someone has a stereo headset vs a surround sound one, which makes very little difference in the long run since most game worthy PCs already have virtual surround sound. And if we are going to go down the lines of comparing a business / every day computer to a gaming computer we might as well be comparing ducks to oranges.
You still need the best of the best processors, motherboards, gfx cards, RAM, SSDs, etc. The cost of entry into competitive PC gaming is pretty similar to a competitive Modern or even Legacy deck. But you have many more opportunities to cut costs in Magic. You can build a great collection over years of playing the game, trading, and buying at the right times. My MTG collection is probably worth about $10,000 if I cashed out right now but I probably only paid $2500 for it over the years.
Magic is no more expensive than many, if not most, other hobbies, and I'd still argue it's one of the cheapest there is. If you want to buy in immediately it's going to cost, but then you're set for quite a while. Or you can go the opposite route and make smaller purchases over time.
In the case of video games the logic on what people spend to be competitive is a bit misleading, as equipment is very standardized for competitive play now and players aren't restricted from content simply because they are missing a high quality headset. In magic it's fully possible not to even be able to play a deck at all without a specific card against another player with any chance of winning because the card in question is extremely costly to purchase. In PC gaming the worst that can happen is someone has a stereo headset vs a surround sound one, which makes very little difference in the long run since most game worthy PCs already have virtual surround sound. And if we are going to go down the lines of comparing a business / every day computer to a gaming computer we might as well be comparing ducks to oranges.
You still need the best of the best processors, motherboards, gfx cards, RAM, SSDs, etc. The cost of entry into competitive PC gaming is pretty similar to a competitive Modern or even Legacy deck. But you have many more opportunities to cut costs in Magic. You can build a great collection over years of playing the game, trading, and buying at the right times. My MTG collection is probably worth about $10,000 if I cashed out right now but I probably only paid $2500 for it over the years.
Magic is no more expensive than many, if not most, other hobbies, and I'd still argue it's one of the cheapest there is. If you want to buy in immediately it's going to cost, but then you're set for quite a while. Or you can go the opposite route and make smaller purchases over time.
They aren't comparable because the value out of the computer is ages higher due to it encompassing many games, not just the one. Magic does have a lot similarities to B2P games with cash shop, though. And you also don't need top of the line gear to do competitive gaming. How much horsepower do you think Counterstrike source, Starcraft II, League of Legends, etc, actually take? The games pushing tech boundries aren't competitive games, they are a different beast altogether.
Games that push tech boundries are The Witcher 3, Star Citizen, Fallout 4, etc. Largely single player titles. Some MMORPGs also do it as well such as Final Fantasy XIV ARR, but not on the same level since the game needs to run on a lot of different hardware.
Also, the amount of money some people have put into MTG during the same period a person would own the typical high end gaming system (MSRP about 1500 usd to 1800usd) is way higher than the PC itself even with game purchases. We're talking SLI rigs sporting GTX 800 series high end cards, which easily pushes the cost over 2000 usd assuming someone built it themselves.
Most high end systems are good without upgrades for up to 2-3 years, and usually it's a minor fix like a new graphics card.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Why do we continue to have this conversation? Its a hobby. That's the end of it. By virtue of it being a hobby it is neither inexpensive or expensive. Its the wrong metric to measure it by and if that's the metric you're using, well you shouldn't be playing. You can't afford it.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Why do we continue to have this conversation? Its a hobby. That's the end of it. By virtue of it being a hobby it is neither inexpensive or expensive. Its the wrong metric to measure it by and if that's the metric you're using, well you shouldn't be playing. You can't afford it.
I agree with this. This type of conversation goes no-where because everyone is different and defines how they enjoy their free time by different standards.
Dont feel entitled to participate, and have fun within your means. If you can't do that with magic, then explore alternatives and come back at a later date
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Magic is the least expensive hobby i can think of.
you're joking, right?
how does having to shell out $15-$60 or more per card for just a staple land card(and more than likely needing 2-4 of the card plus others around the same price) so you can have proper mana cheap? that's not even mentioning the fact that you'll need rares and mythics, on top of hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of lands, just to make a semi-competitive deck. Magic is Far from, "the least expensive hobby," i can think of. here's a list of hobbies that are cheaper than a Tier 2 modern deck, and you'll Be able to continue these hobbies for the rest of your life without having to invest more money(or little money) after it's all said and done:
i can go on and on, but i'm going to stop the list or finishing it would take me all day.
my point is that Magic is in no way, shape, or form, cheap. sure, you can make a budget deck for $50. but that doesn't mean you'll win, have fun with it, or get a lot of use out of the thing. hell, it'd be better to buy a $50 video game if you're looking to maximize the amount of time your money will keep you occupied. Even just semi-competitive Magic isn't for somebody who doesn't have much money, and trying to say otherwise is pretty ignorant.
the bottom line is this: Magic is far from a cheap hobby. it may even be one of the furthest things from a cheap hobby.
I agree that Magic is the cheapest hobby, but there are many out there that are far more expensive...
Just a few that I have done -
Guns
Cars (racing, collecting, tinkering)
Cycling can absolutely be expensive BTW - I have a very expensive road bike. /edit - to the competitive cyclist earlier in the thread - Hell yeah it's nice to meet another one on here!
Golf
Jewelry/Watches
Boating
Like many hobbies, Magic can be as cheap or expensive as you want it to be.
/edit - I just realized I'm very late to the thread, but the primary point I wanted to get across is that with any hobby, much depends on your perspective. If you're the type of person who has to be the best of the best at everything, I would say that almost every hobby is expensive (both in time and financially). If you're the type that can just go with the flow and enjoy your hobby for the sake of enjoyment, then you can have a ton of inexpensive hobbies.
Additionally, I struggle with the term "expensive". What is expensive to one person is chump change to another. I have a friend who races cars that regularly spends $40-$50k annually doing motocross events across the US. He doesn't have any endorsements and that money is completely out of his pocket. I cannot fathom how he can spend that kind of money, but he has it and enjoys it. So who am I to argue?
In the case of video games the logic on what people spend to be competitive is a bit misleading, as equipment is very standardized for competitive play now and players aren't restricted from content simply because they are missing a high quality headset. In magic it's fully possible not to even be able to play a deck at all without a specific card against another player with any chance of winning because the card in question is extremely costly to purchase. In PC gaming the worst that can happen is someone has a stereo headset vs a surround sound one, which makes very little difference in the long run since most game worthy PCs already have virtual surround sound. And if we are going to go down the lines of comparing a business / every day computer to a gaming computer we might as well be comparing ducks to oranges.
You still need the best of the best processors, motherboards, gfx cards, RAM, SSDs, etc. The cost of entry into competitive PC gaming is pretty similar to a competitive Modern or even Legacy deck. But you have many more opportunities to cut costs in Magic. You can build a great collection over years of playing the game, trading, and buying at the right times. My MTG collection is probably worth about $10,000 if I cashed out right now but I probably only paid $2500 for it over the years.
Magic is no more expensive than many, if not most, other hobbies, and I'd still argue it's one of the cheapest there is. If you want to buy in immediately it's going to cost, but then you're set for quite a while. Or you can go the opposite route and make smaller purchases over time.
They aren't comparable because the value out of the computer is ages higher due to it encompassing many games, not just the one. Magic does have a lot similarities to B2P games with cash shop, though. And you also don't need top of the line gear to do competitive gaming. How much horsepower do you think Counterstrike source, Starcraft II, League of Legends, etc, actually take? The games pushing tech boundries aren't competitive games, they are a different beast altogether.
Games that push tech boundries are The Witcher 3, Star Citizen, Fallout 4, etc. Largely single player titles. Some MMORPGs also do it as well such as Final Fantasy XIV ARR, but not on the same level since the game needs to run on a lot of different hardware.
Also, the amount of money some people have put into MTG during the same period a person would own the typical high end gaming system (MSRP about 1500 usd to 1800usd) is way higher than the PC itself even with game purchases. We're talking SLI rigs sporting GTX 800 series high end cards, which easily pushes the cost over 2000 usd assuming someone built it themselves.
Most high end systems are good without upgrades for up to 2-3 years, and usually it's a minor fix like a new graphics card.
Thank you. You don't need more than a 500ish dollar computer to play csgo, Lol, Dota2, most fighting games, at 60+ fps.I don't really get why people are claiming that you need an sli 980ti system to play competitive video games.The same is not true for MTG at all. I would bet money that the the percentage advantage,(assuming equal skill) that a person with a 980ti has vs a 120 dollar graphics card is less than bloodstained mires instead of tarns. Same goes for all the expensive peripherals. I don't think that the same is doable in modern. Video games also let you switch up roles. If i'm playing a figher, and I get tired of it, I can switch to a wizard or whatever as part of the game. I cannot do that in magic, I would need to drop the price of another computer on it.
That is not true for MTG in the slightest. I don't care how good you are, if the other guy has strictly better cards than you do for budget reasons, he is going to win a lot more of the time.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Wish this thread would still be about cards price instead of how expensive is MTG.
I can understand this and I even feel this way, despite contributing to the off conversation.
That being said, Modern prices right now have been fairly stable since Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek were both unbanned. I would presume the only movement is probably those and the cards that go with them going down slightly. Maybe Abzan Company cards are going up? It seems like the new Pod and many good players want to play it.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Modern is not an entry level format. It's not meant to be something you just pick up cause you wanna. Wizards makes little to no money off of modern, They don't want it to be accessible. I've spent nearly 20 years building a collection that has value. I can relate with every single person talking about how ridiculous prices are. Hell if you look back enough years I'm sure I'm right there with you. Lol. But non limited, non standard magic is a format and a game that has become designed to enter slowly over time. Its primary purpose is as an overflow for standard. It gives players a place to play when they tire of the whole rotation game. It also gives the game pieces an extended amount of value which is just gravy for the brick and mortar card shops. Legacy, Vintage and EDH along with kitchen table magic and every other variant do this in varying degrees as well.
And in case you younger folks have failed to notice this, Magic is not primarily designed to be a video game. You like video games? Great, go play video games. Don't ask WotC to make their game into something its not. And quit asking to get stuff cheap when a whole lot of other people had to pay full price and then some for the very same thing. Markets don't work that way. Neither does Magic. It simply can't work that way. The only reason the game exists as it does at all is because WotC at some point decided to print things in such a way that they retain their value. That value is why we get cool tournaments and awesome artists. That value is why we spend hours talking about the banned list and the meta and the next tourney or FNM. Sure the game is fun and it needs to be fun but why it transcends video games and the like is because of the value retaining principle of it. I have always likened it to being like a major sports team owner and GM. Except this is really my team. There are very few other games that can touch that idea. And to get there, there should be a very high buy in or it is a reward for years in the game. And there is nothing wrong with that.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Got another question. Wondering Basilisk Collar priced high right now.. a near mint is almost 9 dollars at SCG. Is there a deck in Modern that uses the card? Thanks.
I think that has got to be EDH driven. I know that is what I use my copies for. It is also one of those cards that is casual sexy enough to drive the price up. It has been a pretty steady grower for the last three years.
It is also a card that looks plausibly good enough and is old enough to be a ripe target for a buyout, though I don't think that is the case. I think it is just a card that long term speculators see as a long term sleeper card that could be the next Doubling Season or Crucible of Worlds in two years. They're probably not far off either.
Oh, so it's used plenty in EDH... Thanks for the reply. I got 3 Basilisk collar when Worldwake was still in print. Back then it was barely a 1 dollar card. It comes to me as a surprise on how much the price has grown.
Time to get it into your head that what something is designed to be and what something is are two very different things. In Magic, Standard is a game. So is Limited. Hey, you wanna play Modern and don't want to pay for it, fine, play with proxies. Can't do it in tournaments or sanctioned events but it's not about that for you so you shouldn't care.
Everything is some kind of investment. Whether its time or money we live in a universe of limited resources. You wanna play video games, invest in that and see where it goes.
And no, making things cheaper isn't necessarily a good thing, especially in the realm of luxury items. Here's an interesting marketing story I was told by a co-worker: Bridal tiaras use to cost under $50. The problem was, nobody planning a wedding and spending exorbitant amounts of money on a dress etc wanted to use the tiara. What did the retailer do? They raised the price of the tiara. In this particular case, their tiara sales skyrocketed. Nobody wanted the $50 tiara, but some how the $250 tiara (actually the same tiara) sold like gangbusters. Value is about perception. Once the perception of value is gone, the actual value quickly follows.
For somebody who says it's about playing a game, you spend a lot of time talking about money. I don't care how big video game tournaments are, you do. If they are what you value go play them, just don't expect the entire dynamic of magic to change because you wanna play but don't wanna pay.
And understand this: I worked damn hard for my collection, damn hard. You wanna come in and say oh it's too expensive and whine and cry and carry on like, well I don't need to say what colors you show. All you have shown me is you don't deserve to play the game cause you aren't willing to earn it.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Modern is not an entry level format. It's not meant to be something you just pick up cause you wanna. Wizards makes little to no money off of modern, They don't want it to be accessible. I've spent nearly 20 years building a collection that has value. I can relate with every single person talking about how ridiculous prices are. Hell if you look back enough years I'm sure I'm right there with you. Lol. But non limited, non standard magic is a format and a game that has become designed to enter slowly over time. Its primary purpose is as an overflow for standard. It gives players a place to play when they tire of the whole rotation game. It also gives the game pieces an extended amount of value which is just gravy for the brick and mortar card shops. Legacy, Vintage and EDH along with kitchen table magic and every other variant do this in varying degrees as well.
And in case you younger folks have failed to notice this, Magic is not primarily designed to be a video game. You like video games? Great, go play video games. Don't ask WotC to make their game into something its not. And quit asking to get stuff cheap when a whole lot of other people had to pay full price and then some for the very same thing. Markets don't work that way. Neither does Magic. It simply can't work that way. The only reason the game exists as it does at all is because WotC at some point decided to print things in such a way that they retain their value. That value is why we get cool tournaments and awesome artists. That value is why we spend hours talking about the banned list and the meta and the next tourney or FNM. Sure the game is fun and it needs to be fun but why it transcends video games and the like is because of the value retaining principle of it. I have always likened it to being like a major sports team owner and GM. Except this is really my team. There are very few other games that can touch that idea. And to get there, there should be a very high buy in or it is a reward for years in the game. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Yeah, on the subject of MTG "Entry" formats...
1) The entry and introductory products are a joke for standard. No one in their right mind is going to pick up an intro deck with a few boosters and have a snowballs chance in hades of doing anything but getting their face smashed. The same can be said about many of the Event decks as well.
2) Commander is good, but not for everyone. Magic the Gathering was born as a 60 card game format and has a lot of potential play value on that level. Commander was invented for reasons of people getting tired of seeing the same decks over and over again.
3) Pauper is probably the "best" introductory format for Magic the Gathering, but is horribly under-represented at most FNM locations.
4) Standard is an ever shifting quagmire of power level, and calling Modern a place for standard players to dwell post rotation is short sighted as the cards they are going to have are no where near the level of many that older players possess from MTGs illustrious modern history.
Magic has a lot of problems financially. They really, really need an online game that has the quality to compete with Hearthstone and provide a way for players to play all formats for reasonable cost. It's too late to really fix paper magic due to the secondary market, but they can still salvage the online game financially if they tried.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Can we please return to talking about card prices rather than price theory. Or can we get them in two different threads.
+1 for card prices instead of price theory.
-1,000,000 for separate price theory thread. That sounds like a nightmare.
In other news, I'm on the fence about selling my Goblin Guides now or waiting until EMA. If I sell them now and they get reprinted, I'm going to make a healthy margin, especially if they get reprinted at rare. If I wait and they get reprinted, I'm not losing money on my initial investment (bought them in 2011) but I am losing the chance to make more. That said, if I wait and they are NOT reprinted, I feel like Guides are going to skyrocket. Thoughts?
Modern is not an entry level format. It's not meant to be something you just pick up cause you wanna. Wizards makes little to no money off of modern, They don't want it to be accessible. I've spent nearly 20 years building a collection that has value. I can relate with every single person talking about how ridiculous prices are. Hell if you look back enough years I'm sure I'm right there with you. Lol. But non limited, non standard magic is a format and a game that has become designed to enter slowly over time. Its primary purpose is as an overflow for standard. It gives players a place to play when they tire of the whole rotation game. It also gives the game pieces an extended amount of value which is just gravy for the brick and mortar card shops. Legacy, Vintage and EDH along with kitchen table magic and every other variant do this in varying degrees as well.
And in case you younger folks have failed to notice this, Magic is not primarily designed to be a video game. You like video games? Great, go play video games. Don't ask WotC to make their game into something its not. And quit asking to get stuff cheap when a whole lot of other people had to pay full price and then some for the very same thing. Markets don't work that way. Neither does Magic. It simply can't work that way. The only reason the game exists as it does at all is because WotC at some point decided to print things in such a way that they retain their value. That value is why we get cool tournaments and awesome artists. That value is why we spend hours talking about the banned list and the meta and the next tourney or FNM. Sure the game is fun and it needs to be fun but why it transcends video games and the like is because of the value retaining principle of it. I have always likened it to being like a major sports team owner and GM. Except this is really my team. There are very few other games that can touch that idea. And to get there, there should be a very high buy in or it is a reward for years in the game. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Historically, any business, regardless of what they are selling, that has failed to adapt has died. Magic and Wizards is no different. They treat their games (MTG and DnD) as though they are still the only ones around. DnD has Pathfinder breathing down its neck while MTG is losing its pro players to hearthstone. Yet, through all of this, they treat the market as though it's still 1998. Force of Will, Hearthstone, Hex...there is a plethora of games to choose from and some of them are free to good players. That's just what games are out right now. Who knows what games may be in development right now.
MTG is becoming an elitist group similar to "The Old Boys Club." If you can't pay, you can't play. Which is fine if that's what they want to be, but it's not a healthy mindset to have. Monolithic institutions like this fall all the time now because they think they are above the rules of the market. Everyone on here wants to tout "Supply and Demand." Alright, I'll bite. You have a growing demand for gaming. You have a supply, albeit a limited supply that you want to sell for a lot of money. However, you do not control the creation of this supply. Someone else starts making a similar product but charges less. You continue to produce a limited supply and keep the cost high because your game deserves to have "value." This value is tied directly to how much people want to play that game, not to anything else. So, those who can't afford to play your game will play the other game.
Sooner or later, Magic will need to realize this isn't a fantasy. Hearthstone is that other game and they are already here to suck up players. You've built a collection over the years and that's great, but how much money do you give Wizards now to play modern? Maybe you buy a handful of packs every two years from MM, maybe you only support the secondary market. Meanwhile, little Timmy doesn't have any of the cards and if Wizards printed them in a new booster that didn't cost $10 and have primarily Jank in a small print run, it's very likely he would buy those packs, thus giving money to Wizards. Wizards should not care about you and me, those who have been playing for years and no longer give them money since we have the staples. They should care about Timmy since he has nothing and is willing to buy the cards. Wizards should put themselves in a position where they are the best source to purchase these cards, not ChannelFireball or SCG. Unless they have a deal with these secondary market sellers to take a percent of their profits from old cards, there is litterally NO REASON for Wizards to maintain this trickle of reprints.
Dude, the possibilities of the game are literally infinite. Why reprint cards when their is literally no limit save previous design space? Reprints are small thinking.
And of course it moves towards elitism. Thats one of many results when you have something someone else wants. And yes the game has to adapt and evolve as does WotC strategy for marketing and providing. And no WotC cannot put themselves in the position to be the best avenue to get old cards. If they do that, b&m businesses will dry up nearly overnight and then the online retailers a week or two later. Then you get to go to walmart to by your cards and have tournaments exactly nowhere because no one will sponsor it. WotC and Hasbro are big but they are not big enough to keep magic alive by themselves.
Don't you see? The gaming stores are what keep the doors open for WotC. They have have no stake in it?? My god they have everything to lose in it.
I'm not against what your saying. I want folks coming into the game and working into the other formats too. There has to be a cost barrier though because otherwise value will diminish. I think WotC has a pretty good system in place. And it will stay in place until sales numbers and attendance numbers start dropping.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
If you aren't currently using the Goblin Guides, I would cash them in now. I put the chance of a reprint in EMA at over 50% (7 year old card, single printing, applicability in multiple formats). Sure, the reprint may not happen, but how much higher will GG go if it is not reprinted?
It is pretty rare for popular AAA titles to go down to as little as $20 even a year later. That is especially true if they have DLC. Witcher 3 is almost exactly a year old and it is still $35-$40 new, and if you want to play the DLC (which is amazing in this case) you are adding even more. Some titles age worse than others...you might be able to pick up Star Wars Battlefront in a year for $25 since it's popularity has dropp.ed quite a bit
I actually disagree with your premise that MTG is one of the more expensive hobbies, but I can sort of support the console gaming as being cheaper (depending on how you compare). I sold out of my MTGO collection for cash (+some credit) about a year ago and with that I was able to play with a few hundred, buy a new PS4 and still use the rest to cover 75% of our moving fees. I was shocked, but I also had cards that I had bought for pennies years ago which gained a lot, so it is hard to compare.
The problem is your standard for gaming is the most casual of casual console gamers (I am in that boat myself, though I spend a little more than you), is not analogous to building most tier 2 Modern decks. You build tiered Modern decks to compete on some level, even if it is only at FNM. Even casual console gamers who compete with other randos online have to add an additional PS+ monthly fee, and many feel specialized controlers and good headsets are part of that. You might even add in some portion of your highspeed connection, since online gaming puts a real demand on your connection. The level that you (and me) game at would be more analogous to the casual MTG player who can play with some theme decks and the odd single or booster pack. I took time off from paying attention to magic and played for a year and a half without paying anything. Was I making tier 2 Extended decks? No, but I was playing the hell out of my mono black Rogue tribal deck that had no rares in it, and mining by back collection for gems that I hadn't tried yet. The last PS3 game I bought was Dragon Age Inquisition when it first came out (didn't have my ps4 yet), but I have logged scores of hours on it since, playing old classics like the Mass Effect trilogy, Skyrim, and Fallout 3. I even pulled out Orange Box at one point, though only to find that the disc was not reliably playable due to a scratch. That seems pretty similar to how I played casual magic.
True, but I have been playing tabletop RPGs for decades and have gone through periods when all I could or was willing to spend was enough to get the most basic elements, some graph paper, and a mechanical pencil. Hell, the 5th edition D&D ruleset is so robust, simple, and flexible that all I have bought are the PHB, DMG, and MM. On the other hand I can fully backup how expensive it can be. I went deep into Fantasy Flight's 3rd Edition Warhammer FRPG, and that system is so reliant on the high quality gaming accessories that went with it that it would be very limiting to only get the compiled box set.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
What I like about Modern and Legacy though is that they have low upkeep costs. Once you build into the format with something to play, it's pretty inexpensive to expand and always gain options.
The ceiling on video games can be as high as you could possibly want it - from time investments on professional teams (years and full time job+ time commitments), to $15k+ rarities in the collectors markets. ALL hobbies have different levels of price and expense - I'm not sure what comparing magic to other hobbies is really doing to arguing anyone's point.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I think that has got to be EDH driven. I know that is what I use my copies for. It is also one of those cards that is casual sexy enough to drive the price up. It has been a pretty steady grower for the last three years.
It is also a card that looks plausibly good enough and is old enough to be a ripe target for a buyout, though I don't think that is the case. I think it is just a card that long term speculators see as a long term sleeper card that could be the next Doubling Season or Crucible of Worlds in two years. They're probably not far off either.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Especially if you're into Gundam plamo since that stuff is sufficiently presentable OOB so as to not require buying the usual painting supplies (ALSO ENDLESS HOURS OF FUN TO POSE UP UNTIL YOU BREAK IT).
Again though, these comparisons are meaningless. You can be EXTREMELY competitive in Magic with very little time investment if you are able to naturally take to the game and have fundamental understandings of strategies in the game - with videogames most people are unable to approach anything considered top tier competitive without devoting thousands of hours to practice. I have the money to pay for video games sure, but I don't have near the time investment necessary to ever consider competing seriously.
Magic is no more expensive than many, if not most, other hobbies, and I'd still argue it's one of the cheapest there is. If you want to buy in immediately it's going to cost, but then you're set for quite a while. Or you can go the opposite route and make smaller purchases over time.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
They aren't comparable because the value out of the computer is ages higher due to it encompassing many games, not just the one. Magic does have a lot similarities to B2P games with cash shop, though. And you also don't need top of the line gear to do competitive gaming. How much horsepower do you think Counterstrike source, Starcraft II, League of Legends, etc, actually take? The games pushing tech boundries aren't competitive games, they are a different beast altogether.
Games that push tech boundries are The Witcher 3, Star Citizen, Fallout 4, etc. Largely single player titles. Some MMORPGs also do it as well such as Final Fantasy XIV ARR, but not on the same level since the game needs to run on a lot of different hardware.
Also, the amount of money some people have put into MTG during the same period a person would own the typical high end gaming system (MSRP about 1500 usd to 1800usd) is way higher than the PC itself even with game purchases. We're talking SLI rigs sporting GTX 800 series high end cards, which easily pushes the cost over 2000 usd assuming someone built it themselves.
Most high end systems are good without upgrades for up to 2-3 years, and usually it's a minor fix like a new graphics card.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I agree with this. This type of conversation goes no-where because everyone is different and defines how they enjoy their free time by different standards.
Dont feel entitled to participate, and have fun within your means. If you can't do that with magic, then explore alternatives and come back at a later date
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I agree that Magic is the cheapest hobby, but there are many out there that are far more expensive...
Just a few that I have done -
Guns
Cars (racing, collecting, tinkering)
Cycling can absolutely be expensive BTW - I have a very expensive road bike. /edit - to the competitive cyclist earlier in the thread - Hell yeah it's nice to meet another one on here!
Golf
Jewelry/Watches
Boating
Like many hobbies, Magic can be as cheap or expensive as you want it to be.
/edit - I just realized I'm very late to the thread, but the primary point I wanted to get across is that with any hobby, much depends on your perspective. If you're the type of person who has to be the best of the best at everything, I would say that almost every hobby is expensive (both in time and financially). If you're the type that can just go with the flow and enjoy your hobby for the sake of enjoyment, then you can have a ton of inexpensive hobbies.
Additionally, I struggle with the term "expensive". What is expensive to one person is chump change to another. I have a friend who races cars that regularly spends $40-$50k annually doing motocross events across the US. He doesn't have any endorsements and that money is completely out of his pocket. I cannot fathom how he can spend that kind of money, but he has it and enjoys it. So who am I to argue?
Thank you. You don't need more than a 500ish dollar computer to play csgo, Lol, Dota2, most fighting games, at 60+ fps.I don't really get why people are claiming that you need an sli 980ti system to play competitive video games.The same is not true for MTG at all. I would bet money that the the percentage advantage,(assuming equal skill) that a person with a 980ti has vs a 120 dollar graphics card is less than bloodstained mires instead of tarns. Same goes for all the expensive peripherals. I don't think that the same is doable in modern. Video games also let you switch up roles. If i'm playing a figher, and I get tired of it, I can switch to a wizard or whatever as part of the game. I cannot do that in magic, I would need to drop the price of another computer on it.
That is not true for MTG in the slightest. I don't care how good you are, if the other guy has strictly better cards than you do for budget reasons, he is going to win a lot more of the time.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I can understand this and I even feel this way, despite contributing to the off conversation.
That being said, Modern prices right now have been fairly stable since Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek were both unbanned. I would presume the only movement is probably those and the cards that go with them going down slightly. Maybe Abzan Company cards are going up? It seems like the new Pod and many good players want to play it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)And in case you younger folks have failed to notice this, Magic is not primarily designed to be a video game. You like video games? Great, go play video games. Don't ask WotC to make their game into something its not. And quit asking to get stuff cheap when a whole lot of other people had to pay full price and then some for the very same thing. Markets don't work that way. Neither does Magic. It simply can't work that way. The only reason the game exists as it does at all is because WotC at some point decided to print things in such a way that they retain their value. That value is why we get cool tournaments and awesome artists. That value is why we spend hours talking about the banned list and the meta and the next tourney or FNM. Sure the game is fun and it needs to be fun but why it transcends video games and the like is because of the value retaining principle of it. I have always likened it to being like a major sports team owner and GM. Except this is really my team. There are very few other games that can touch that idea. And to get there, there should be a very high buy in or it is a reward for years in the game. And there is nothing wrong with that.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Oh, so it's used plenty in EDH... Thanks for the reply. I got 3 Basilisk collar when Worldwake was still in print. Back then it was barely a 1 dollar card. It comes to me as a surprise on how much the price has grown.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Everything is some kind of investment. Whether its time or money we live in a universe of limited resources. You wanna play video games, invest in that and see where it goes.
And no, making things cheaper isn't necessarily a good thing, especially in the realm of luxury items. Here's an interesting marketing story I was told by a co-worker: Bridal tiaras use to cost under $50. The problem was, nobody planning a wedding and spending exorbitant amounts of money on a dress etc wanted to use the tiara. What did the retailer do? They raised the price of the tiara. In this particular case, their tiara sales skyrocketed. Nobody wanted the $50 tiara, but some how the $250 tiara (actually the same tiara) sold like gangbusters. Value is about perception. Once the perception of value is gone, the actual value quickly follows.
For somebody who says it's about playing a game, you spend a lot of time talking about money. I don't care how big video game tournaments are, you do. If they are what you value go play them, just don't expect the entire dynamic of magic to change because you wanna play but don't wanna pay.
And understand this: I worked damn hard for my collection, damn hard. You wanna come in and say oh it's too expensive and whine and cry and carry on like, well I don't need to say what colors you show. All you have shown me is you don't deserve to play the game cause you aren't willing to earn it.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Yeah, on the subject of MTG "Entry" formats...
1) The entry and introductory products are a joke for standard. No one in their right mind is going to pick up an intro deck with a few boosters and have a snowballs chance in hades of doing anything but getting their face smashed. The same can be said about many of the Event decks as well.
2) Commander is good, but not for everyone. Magic the Gathering was born as a 60 card game format and has a lot of potential play value on that level. Commander was invented for reasons of people getting tired of seeing the same decks over and over again.
3) Pauper is probably the "best" introductory format for Magic the Gathering, but is horribly under-represented at most FNM locations.
4) Standard is an ever shifting quagmire of power level, and calling Modern a place for standard players to dwell post rotation is short sighted as the cards they are going to have are no where near the level of many that older players possess from MTGs illustrious modern history.
Magic has a lot of problems financially. They really, really need an online game that has the quality to compete with Hearthstone and provide a way for players to play all formats for reasonable cost. It's too late to really fix paper magic due to the secondary market, but they can still salvage the online game financially if they tried.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
+1 for card prices instead of price theory.
-1,000,000 for separate price theory thread. That sounds like a nightmare.
In other news, I'm on the fence about selling my Goblin Guides now or waiting until EMA. If I sell them now and they get reprinted, I'm going to make a healthy margin, especially if they get reprinted at rare. If I wait and they get reprinted, I'm not losing money on my initial investment (bought them in 2011) but I am losing the chance to make more. That said, if I wait and they are NOT reprinted, I feel like Guides are going to skyrocket. Thoughts?
Historically, any business, regardless of what they are selling, that has failed to adapt has died. Magic and Wizards is no different. They treat their games (MTG and DnD) as though they are still the only ones around. DnD has Pathfinder breathing down its neck while MTG is losing its pro players to hearthstone. Yet, through all of this, they treat the market as though it's still 1998. Force of Will, Hearthstone, Hex...there is a plethora of games to choose from and some of them are free to good players. That's just what games are out right now. Who knows what games may be in development right now.
MTG is becoming an elitist group similar to "The Old Boys Club." If you can't pay, you can't play. Which is fine if that's what they want to be, but it's not a healthy mindset to have. Monolithic institutions like this fall all the time now because they think they are above the rules of the market. Everyone on here wants to tout "Supply and Demand." Alright, I'll bite. You have a growing demand for gaming. You have a supply, albeit a limited supply that you want to sell for a lot of money. However, you do not control the creation of this supply. Someone else starts making a similar product but charges less. You continue to produce a limited supply and keep the cost high because your game deserves to have "value." This value is tied directly to how much people want to play that game, not to anything else. So, those who can't afford to play your game will play the other game.
Sooner or later, Magic will need to realize this isn't a fantasy. Hearthstone is that other game and they are already here to suck up players. You've built a collection over the years and that's great, but how much money do you give Wizards now to play modern? Maybe you buy a handful of packs every two years from MM, maybe you only support the secondary market. Meanwhile, little Timmy doesn't have any of the cards and if Wizards printed them in a new booster that didn't cost $10 and have primarily Jank in a small print run, it's very likely he would buy those packs, thus giving money to Wizards. Wizards should not care about you and me, those who have been playing for years and no longer give them money since we have the staples. They should care about Timmy since he has nothing and is willing to buy the cards. Wizards should put themselves in a position where they are the best source to purchase these cards, not ChannelFireball or SCG. Unless they have a deal with these secondary market sellers to take a percent of their profits from old cards, there is litterally NO REASON for Wizards to maintain this trickle of reprints.
And of course it moves towards elitism. Thats one of many results when you have something someone else wants. And yes the game has to adapt and evolve as does WotC strategy for marketing and providing. And no WotC cannot put themselves in the position to be the best avenue to get old cards. If they do that, b&m businesses will dry up nearly overnight and then the online retailers a week or two later. Then you get to go to walmart to by your cards and have tournaments exactly nowhere because no one will sponsor it. WotC and Hasbro are big but they are not big enough to keep magic alive by themselves.
Don't you see? The gaming stores are what keep the doors open for WotC. They have have no stake in it?? My god they have everything to lose in it.
I'm not against what your saying. I want folks coming into the game and working into the other formats too. There has to be a cost barrier though because otherwise value will diminish. I think WotC has a pretty good system in place. And it will stay in place until sales numbers and attendance numbers start dropping.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.