I'm kind of curious what would happen if Wizards did something like, "These lands will never be printed in a standard set again, but we will continue to print them regularly in commander and modern/eternal masters" with the zendikar fetches and shock lands, then reduced the rarity to uncommon.
I'm curious what would happen if they started making the cards out of beef jerky. That is about as likely as what you're wondering about. Supplemental products are not made to drive prices, they are designed to be good to play. As much as I hate it, X Masters type sets are designed around Limited play almost more than whatever format is in the name. Commander decks are designed for Commander players primarily, and while the Fetches are great in EDH having them in the precons would result in product shortage for sure. Since they put a lot of weight on these decks being easily accessible for people wanting to get into EDH, that seems like a bad outcome. Tying the hands of the people that design these product, so that they can pump lands into Modern is lazy design, and makes for stale products.
Not to mention the secondary market is increasingly becoming a problem for the company thanks to the games image being tarnished as a game for the overly rich, and this isn't hyperbole.
It may not be hyperbole for you, or your friends, or the people people who write about magic that you choose to read, perhaps. What does "overly rich" even mean? By "increasingly" are you talking about raw numbers or percentage of the total magic population? I suppose all it takes for your sentence to be accurate is one more person every year, since that is technically an increase, but is it even meaningful? I suspect your sentence is in fact hyperbole, but I don't know for sure since I try not to be stuck in the viewpoint that my MTG bubble represents the whole.
How boring would it be for the same lands being printed in some product even every other year? It would kill a lot of anticipation (which drives sales). Personally I look forward to each new set for what new things it brings to the game. KTK was perfect because it took some pressure off the absolute need to get the Zen fetches, and at the same time added 5 new staple lands to a growing format. I remember being pretty bored with the Painlands being so long in print this last time around, and I like the painlands quite a bit.
Don't get me wrong...I am eager for the enemy fetches to be reprinted- I have been holding on to a couple hundred bucks in store credit I have from getting out of MTGO that I ear-marked for that purpose like 18 months ago. I would like that to happen sooner rather than later, but I also understand that my wants or play needs are not always the same as what drives game popularity. I am a reasonable adult so I have no ill will towards WotC for continuing to do what has worked for so long in order to protect the longevity of the game.
For lands that see use in every major deck there really isn't a point to NOT printing them to make them accessible.
There is a point- scarcity drives up demand. Psychologically is feeds the aspirational part of our human nature, whether we are conscious of it or not. Corporations know that the demand that is driven up by scarcity gives them greater benefit than making luxury goods cheap enough and easy enough for anyone to be a part.
There is a point- scarcity drives up demand. Psychologically is feeds the aspirational part of our human nature, whether we are conscious of it or not. Corporations know that the demand that is driven up by scarcity gives them greater benefit than making luxury goods cheap enough and easy enough for anyone to be a part.
Referring to the part that I put in bold. I sort of agree with that.. my lack of 2 Flooded Strand and 3 Chalice of the Void keeps me from completely forgetting about the game. Even if I'm at work, at cosplay photoshoots, or simply relaxing at home - it would still sometimes cross my thoughts that maybe 3 or 4 months from now, those cards that I'm lacking would be acquired someday. For now, I just use Arid Mesa to fill the gaps that should be occupied by the Flooded Strands.
For mana-bases in general it's best not to have that be the focus of peoples financial woes when building a deck is the thing. MtG did start the trend, but there's little reason to keep repeating a bad idea when people could be spending more time actually brewing with the cards that have mechanics which are interesting. If a format is defined by a specific set of lands that play at a certain speed, those lands need to be core to the format. Standard is slower than modern and is often defined by lands that are less efficient than the ones we find in modern. Modern is defined by Scalding Tarns, Arid Mesa, and other pain fetches along with shock lands. Those together need to be sub 10 usd each to make the format playable. We aren't talking making lands cost pennies, but they should cost low enough that someone building a specific deck can get the lands they need for $40 and move on to focusing their attention on the actual, mechanically interactive cards.
I totally don't expect everyone in this forum thread to necessarily agree with this, either. A lot of people have tied money up into lands with the expectation their price wont decline because they wanted the game to be a financial savings plan or something. However, after playing other card games where the mana-bases are more accessible it just makes the game much easier to enjoy and also makes B&R announcements less of a problem if someone has to switch out of a specific color scheme to stay competitive. MtG Modern is the most hassle prone card game ever for having to deal with any kind of change thanks to mana base and being forced to either pony up for more lands in significant amounts of cash, or have to go to a card store to trade up for a fraction of the sell price just to get the right ones, assuming they even have them.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Colt, I used to think as you did, and argued till I was blue in the face. I thought the price of lands was too damn high, and when looking at the Zen fetches, it still is. But that was before Shocks where reprinted, and before we got our Onslaught fetches. While playing off color fetches isn't ideal, its far better than playing none. Wizards have also given players a huge offering of budget lands, and reprinted the pain lands to near bulk status. Budget mana bases are creeping ever closer to their fetch shock counter parts, but most will never make a serious attempt to optimize a budget land base.
Magic is very expensive, but it is in no means out of reach, nor is it a game for the rich. I make just over 30k a year, and through proper bugeting, can afford Modern easily. Thats with a car payment and all my other bills, with only my rent being split with my fiancee. I may not be able to buy Jund tomorrow, but I can build over time towards it. Mana bases in particualar are much cheaper than when I started playing , and that is a great thing. Before RTR shocks where the most expensive part of your land base. Then it was Zen fetches, but now you can run a mix of off color fetches and still be okay. Mana bases have really gotten cheaper for the most part.
For mana-bases in general it's best not to have that be the focus of peoples financial woes when building a deck is the thing. MtG did start the trend, but there's little reason to keep repeating a bad idea when people could be spending more time actually brewing with the cards that have mechanics which are interesting. If a format is defined by a specific set of lands that play at a certain speed, those lands need to be core to the format. Standard is slower than modern and is often defined by lands that are less efficient than the ones we find in modern. Modern is defined by Scalding Tarns, Arid Mesa, and other pain fetches along with shock lands. Those together need to be sub 10 usd each to make the format playable. We aren't talking making lands cost pennies, but they should cost low enough that someone building a specific deck can get the lands they need for $40 and move on to focusing their attention on the actual, mechanically interactive cards.
I totally don't expect everyone in this forum thread to necessarily agree with this, either. A lot of people have tied money up into lands with the expectation their price wont decline because they wanted the game to be a financial savings plan or something. However, after playing other card games where the mana-bases are more accessible it just makes the game much easier to enjoy and also makes B&R announcements less of a problem if someone has to switch out of a specific color scheme to stay competitive. MtG Modern is the most hassle prone card game ever for having to deal with any kind of change thanks to mana base and being forced to either pony up for more lands in significant amounts of cash, or have to go to a card store to trade up for a fraction of the sell price just to get the right ones, assuming they even have them.
mana bases are the foundation of a format, you're right, but as such they are in more demand than most other cards. Most magic players understand that the best way to enter a format over time is by targeting lands first.
To say that they need to be a certain price to make a format playable is highly alarmist. With everything at its current price the format remains incredibly popular, and therefore inherently playable.
Colt: You are continually arguing from only one standpoint without considering that of any other - the budget minded competitive non-rotating format player. I can't stress just how small of a demographic this is and that almost every other demographic wants the chips to fall in their favor in a different way. I ABSOLUTELY think that there needs to be a balance and that budget minded players can compete, spikes can see balanced formats, brewers continue to get new cards to tinker with, and collectors that are able to collect cards that are satisfying AND don't lose money. ALL of these different demographics deserve to have a game that attempts to satisfy their needs and arguing that all valuable lands should be printed at uncommon is only representative of what you're looking for.
I LIKE having expensive cards that I have to save up for. I'm proud of my collection and I'm excited when new valuable things come out. I LIKE that I can't just pick up an entire new set of cards for 20 bucks (looking at you FOW) because I feel that games that use that sort of an economic model become VERY stale very quickly (and magic's popularity accounts for this). I love drafting and opening the newest Avacyn or Planeswalker - and I love watching their prices shift over the coming months and years. You simply cannot discount an entire group of people who are involved in the game in a way that is different from the way you are.
Colt: You are continually arguing from only one standpoint without considering that of any other - the budget minded competitive non-rotating format player. I can't stress just how small of a demographic this is and that almost every other demographic wants the chips to fall in their favor in a different way. I ABSOLUTELY think that there needs to be a balance and that budget minded players can compete, spikes can see balanced formats, brewers continue to get new cards to tinker with, and collectors that are able to collect cards that are satisfying AND don't lose money. ALL of these different demographics deserve to have a game that attempts to satisfy their needs and arguing that all valuable lands should be printed at uncommon is only representative of what you're looking for.
I LIKE having expensive cards that I have to save up for. I'm proud of my collection and I'm excited when new valuable things come out. I LIKE that I can't just pick up an entire new set of cards for 20 bucks (looking at you FOW) because I feel that games that use that sort of an economic model become VERY stale very quickly (and magic's popularity accounts for this). I love drafting and opening the newest Avacyn or Planeswalker - and I love watching their prices shift over the coming months and years. You simply cannot discount an entire group of people who are involved in the game in a way that is different from the way you are.
I just have a stand point. It doesn't mean that because I have one I therefore invalidate other standpoints carried by others. I think in some regards people have become defensive when an opposing view shows up. Not everyone, but a few people have at least.
I'm a fan of a game that offers an easy route to get into any format someone wants, then offers them the ability to dig as deep as they want into a format. Modern mana bases are by far the doorway to modern and there's enough deck tech out there to see what lands are actually needed to run most plausible archetypes. There's basically no point wasting card space on things that are sub-optimal in regards to it. Also I think some people might be misreading my position on lands. I'm not saying all lands have to be cheap, just something that is so commonly used in all deck techs and so general in function as fetches and shocks need to be more available and affordable. Also, this is mostly going towards the zen fetches.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Magic is the least expensive hobby i can think of.
you're joking, right?
how does having to shell out $15-$60 or more per card for just a staple land card(and more than likely needing 2-4 of the card plus others around the same price) so you can have proper mana cheap? that's not even mentioning the fact that you'll need rares and mythics, on top of hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of lands, just to make a semi-competitive deck. Magic is Far from, "the least expensive hobby," i can think of. here's a list of hobbies that are cheaper than a Tier 2 modern deck, and you'll Be able to continue these hobbies for the rest of your life without having to invest more money(or little money) after it's all said and done:
i can go on and on, but i'm going to stop the list or finishing it would take me all day.
my point is that Magic is in no way, shape, or form, cheap. sure, you can make a budget deck for $50. but that doesn't mean you'll win, have fun with it, or get a lot of use out of the thing. hell, it'd be better to buy a $50 video game if you're looking to maximize the amount of time your money will keep you occupied. Even just semi-competitive Magic isn't for somebody who doesn't have much money, and trying to say otherwise is pretty ignorant.
the bottom line is this: Magic is far from a cheap hobby. it may even be one of the furthest things from a cheap hobby.
Magic is the least expensive hobby i can think of.
you're joking, right?
how does having to shell out $15-$60 or more per card for just a staple land card(and more than likely needing 2-4 of the card plus others around the same price) so you can have proper mana cheap? that's not even mentioning the fact that you'll need rares and mythics, on top of hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of lands, just to make a semi-competitive deck. Magic is Far from, "the least expensive hobby," i can think of. here's a list of hobbies that are cheaper than a Tier 2 modern deck, and you'll Be able to continue these hobbies for the rest of your life without having to invest more money(or little money) after it's all said and done:
i can go on and on, but i'm going to stop the list or finishing it would take me all day.
my point is that Magic is in no way, shape, or form, cheap. sure, you can make a budget deck for $50. but that doesn't mean you'll win, have fun with it, or get a lot of use out of the thing. hell, it'd be better to buy a $50 video game if you're looking to maximize the amount of time your money will keep you occupied. Even just semi-competitive Magic isn't for somebody who doesn't have much money, and trying to say otherwise is pretty ignorant.
the bottom line is this: Magic is far from a cheap hobby. it may even be one of the furthest things from a cheap hobby.
I don't consider sports hobbies so if you do then I guess that makes sense. That said, some of those sports can get MUCH more expensive than Magic depending on how you're doing it. In order to buy the most expensive Modern deck, you need about $2500. For the most expensive bike out there? That's more expensive than the most expensive Vintage decks. Hiking/camping/fishing can be similarly expensive depending on how seriously you take it. It's not correct to compare the most expensive part of one thing against the least expensive part of another.
And what are you playing your $50 video game on? Your $3k PC?
EDIT: And that's all ignoring the fact that out of all those things, Magic is more capable of paying for itself than any other hobby I can think of. Go 2-2 or better every FNM and pretty soon you're buying staples off store credit or making enough to pay off the initial investment. Can't do that with your $5k camping gear.
i wasn't comparing the cheapest end of the things i mentioned to the most expensive cards in magic. i was comparing these hobbies(yes, sports are hobbies) to a tier 2 modern magic deck.
Camping is far from expensive. a nice tent that can sleep up to 6 people comfortably is around $200. as far as biking is concerned, a nice bike that is sturdy and won't need much maintenance is around $600. this is why i stated that staple lands cost from $15-$60. you saying i was making lopsided comparisons makes me feel like you should reread my post.
$3,000 pc? silly person, i'm smarter than to dump $3k into a computer. i paid $300 for a Playstation 4.
$5,000 for camping gear?? what world do you live in?
you must be rather sheltered, because you obviously don't know much about the real world. get outside a little bit, enjoy the sun. go for a walk or something.
Thinking through the hobby-price question, I'm considering the prices of different hobbies I engage in. At my Brazilian Jujitsu gym, monthly membership is $140-$180, depending on your package at registration. Most members end up spending an average of +$50 per month on tournament entries, new gear, seminars, privates, etc.. We'll ignore transportation, parking, and incidental costs like sports tape, Gatorade, Advil, etc. That brings the monthly cost to $190-$230, or an annual cost of $2,280 - $2,760.
So for a year at my gym, you could buy Jund instead. Adjust accordingly for cheaper decks. Assuming your Modern deck lasts longer than a year, which is a good assumption now that PTs aren't accelerating bans, that's not the worst return. It's much better if you go into a cheaper deck in the < $1,000 range, which you could buy for about 4-8 months of BJJ hobby expenses.
Of course, once you buy the Magic deck, Modern gets significantly cheaper because you might not have to re-buy cards. That said, if you're investing in multiple decks or want to maintain an arsenal of them, the cost will recur year after year. If you aren't making those extra investments, however, the Modern price drops significantly after your initial investment.
All told, this makes me feel like Modern (not Magic as a whole, necessarily) isn't that expensive. Standard rotations certainly add up, and all of this is still pricey if you're a player with less stable income, but Modern doesn't seem that bad in this admittedly limited comparison.
i wasn't comparing the cheapest end of the things i mentioned to the most expensive cards in magic. i was comparing these hobbies(yes, sports are hobbies) to a tier 2 modern magic deck.
Camping is far from expensive. a nice tent that can sleep up to 6 people comfortably is around $200. as far as biking is concerned, a nice bike that is sturdy and won't need much maintenance is around $600. this is why i stated that staple lands cost from $15-$60. you saying i was making lopsided comparisons makes me feel like you should reread my post.
$3,000 pc? silly person, i'm smarter than to dump $3k into a computer. i paid $300 for a Playstation 4.
$5,000 for camping gear?? what world do you live in?
you must be rather sheltered, because you obviously don't know much about the real world. get outside a little bit, enjoy the sun. go for a walk or something.
Great job with the personal attacks on someone you don't know. Sheltered? Go outside? Good job kid, you passed internet bullying 101. In 7th grade you'll get the next lesson. (See what I did there? I can demean you for no good reason also).
If you're playing at anything higher than FNM (the only places this type of money on cards is necessary) then the equal level of investment needs to be assumed for the hobby of comparison. For instance, I've been on several randonneurs, including Paris-Brest-Paris with my father a couple years before he passed. That's a 1200 kilometer ride, and you need good equipment. We built my bike ourselves and I could probably sell it for $4k down the street, more if I were a discerning seller. And there's no possibility of getting money back simply for riding. Are you telling me that's cheaper than winning my way in store credit to a tier 1 deck?
And good for you, you bought a PS4 for $300. Do you only own 1 game, for $50? Or did you buy a PS for $100, a PS2 for $200, a PS3 for $300, and a PS4 for $300 plus at least 5 games for each, totaling at least $2900?
Magic is the least expensive hobby i can think of.
you're joking, right?
how does having to shell out $15-$60 or more per card for just a staple land card(and more than likely needing 2-4 of the card plus others around the same price) so you can have proper mana cheap? that's not even mentioning the fact that you'll need rares and mythics, on top of hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of lands, just to make a semi-competitive deck. Magic is Far from, "the least expensive hobby," i can think of. here's a list of hobbies that are cheaper than a Tier 2 modern deck, and you'll Be able to continue these hobbies for the rest of your life without having to invest more money(or little money) after it's all said and done:
i can go on and on, but i'm going to stop the list or finishing it would take me all day.
my point is that Magic is in no way, shape, or form, cheap. sure, you can make a budget deck for $50. but that doesn't mean you'll win, have fun with it, or get a lot of use out of the thing. hell, it'd be better to buy a $50 video game if you're looking to maximize the amount of time your money will keep you occupied. Even just semi-competitive Magic isn't for somebody who doesn't have much money, and trying to say otherwise is pretty ignorant.
the bottom line is this: Magic is far from a cheap hobby. it may even be one of the furthest things from a cheap hobby.
I don't consider sports hobbies so if you do then I guess that makes sense. That said, some of those sports can get MUCH more expensive than Magic depending on how you're doing it. In order to buy the most expensive Modern deck, you need about $2500. For the most expensive bike out there? That's more expensive than the most expensive Vintage decks. Hiking/camping/fishing can be similarly expensive depending on how seriously you take it. It's not correct to compare the most expensive part of one thing against the least expensive part of another.
And what are you playing your $50 video game on? Your $3k PC?
EDIT: And that's all ignoring the fact that out of all those things, Magic is more capable of paying for itself than any other hobby I can think of. Go 2-2 or better every FNM and pretty soon you're buying staples off store credit or making enough to pay off the initial investment. Can't do that with your $5k camping gear.
Magic is definitley not cheap, but I can be competitive in modern and spend 1.5-2K on everything needed and then spend a few hundred per year picking up new stuff that I need.
To reiterate the Biking example above (one example you listed) is exponentially more expensive on the competitive level, I used to bike a couple hundred miles per week and raced competitively. Here is what you can expect to spend to be competitive (not even buying near the most expensive stuff out there:
Proper clothing: $100 minimum for a good set of bike shorts and jersey (you'll need 5-6 pairs, plus jackets, cold weather gear, gloves, etc, etc). You'll but a few new pairs each year too.
Shoes: $100+ per pair (you'll probably have at least two pairs)
Helment: $100 mid price for something light and comfortable
Yearly tune up: $200-300
Yearly upgrades/part replacements/tires/tubes/etc: $200-400
Race Bike + Race wheels: $3000-8000 depending on how much you want to spend. Top of the line pro setups run 5-10K for road bikes
Spare wheels to train on/durable pair: $300
Every 3-5 years you'll probably also upgrade your frame and groupset spending another few thousand dollars.
Plus for bad winter weather you don't want your nice bike out in the elements, that's another $1,500 for a winter/training bike/beater bike
Oh yeah, and you need rollers to train indoors: $300
And every week you need extra food to support how many calories you're burning and to keep you fueled on long rides: $100 every two week easily in extra food, ride snacks, etc that you wouldn't eat if you weren't riding.
I've done the math as I had to budget for this, and we are talking at a competitive level here, it is thousands of dollars per year. As the poster above mentioned you are talking $2-3k of initial investment to play modern competitively.
I'm no fan of magic prices, and I think they are too high, but when compared to other hobbies out there it really isn't much of a comparison. Magic is something we choose to do, a luxury and so long as people pay the prices they will continue to be high.
I think that both of you are right in some way. There are many, many different types of hobbies. Some of them are really expensive and some are not. I have seen specific "campers" I know spend $5,000 on camping gear, while I don't expect everyone to do so just to camp.
Here are some of the hobbies I have had in the past 10 years. Magic the Gathering - expensive Weightlifting - fairly cheap, while it cost money for Protein products, it can be cheaper than most others spend on their own food, my membership is lifetime and cost $7.50 for my portion of it Gun collecting - pretty expensive if you are not content with just a few, if you have a place to shoot it just cost ammo Car modifying - there's no denying here and I dare someone to prove me wrong, it's very expensive and a money pit Basketball - $0 basically, I've had the same basketball for over 10 years and it's fine, I guess gas to various courts...
Those are probably the main hobbies I've had during those times. Some are expensive and some aren't.
*Some personal self reflection here... I noticed that as of the past 7 years, my other hobbies have gone by the waste side and MTG has completely taken over. I know that's not healthy.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Magic is the least expensive hobby i can think of.
you're joking, right?
how does having to shell out $15-$60 or more per card for just a staple land card(and more than likely needing 2-4 of the card plus others around the same price) so you can have proper mana cheap? that's not even mentioning the fact that you'll need rares and mythics, on top of hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of lands, just to make a semi-competitive deck. Magic is Far from, "the least expensive hobby," i can think of. here's a list of hobbies that are cheaper than a Tier 2 modern deck, and you'll Be able to continue these hobbies for the rest of your life without having to invest more money(or little money) after it's all said and done:
i can go on and on, but i'm going to stop the list or finishing it would take me all day.
my point is that Magic is in no way, shape, or form, cheap. sure, you can make a budget deck for $50. but that doesn't mean you'll win, have fun with it, or get a lot of use out of the thing. hell, it'd be better to buy a $50 video game if you're looking to maximize the amount of time your money will keep you occupied. Even just semi-competitive Magic isn't for somebody who doesn't have much money, and trying to say otherwise is pretty ignorant.
the bottom line is this: Magic is far from a cheap hobby. it may even be one of the furthest things from a cheap hobby.
I don't consider sports hobbies so if you do then I guess that makes sense. That said, some of those sports can get MUCH more expensive than Magic depending on how you're doing it. In order to buy the most expensive Modern deck, you need about $2500. For the most expensive bike out there? That's more expensive than the most expensive Vintage decks. Hiking/camping/fishing can be similarly expensive depending on how seriously you take it. It's not correct to compare the most expensive part of one thing against the least expensive part of another.
And what are you playing your $50 video game on? Your $3k PC?
EDIT: And that's all ignoring the fact that out of all those things, Magic is more capable of paying for itself than any other hobby I can think of. Go 2-2 or better every FNM and pretty soon you're buying staples off store credit or making enough to pay off the initial investment. Can't do that with your $5k camping gear.
3k dollars for a PC that you use just for gaming is absolutely absurd. You really don't need to spend more than 800 dollars to get a 1440 60fps machine that's good for at leat 3 years, I built mine for 600. I COULD have spent the money on a new deck, but I'm too scared of bans to ever invest in modern again.
I also really think that comparing magic to other tabletop hobbies is much fairer, and boardgames, wargaming, and PnP is a much fairer comparison.
Material costs are actually a thing for biking and camping.
Also, imagine if a sports manufacturer stopped making a particular type of gear, while still supporting a type of event that having that gear gave you a strict advantage in. At least you can still buy high end bikes, tents, and whatever from the manufacturer.
Magic is the least expensive hobby i can think of.
you're joking, right?
how does having to shell out $15-$60 or more per card for just a staple land card(and more than likely needing 2-4 of the card plus others around the same price) so you can have proper mana cheap? that's not even mentioning the fact that you'll need rares and mythics, on top of hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of lands, just to make a semi-competitive deck. Magic is Far from, "the least expensive hobby," i can think of. here's a list of hobbies that are cheaper than a Tier 2 modern deck, and you'll Be able to continue these hobbies for the rest of your life without having to invest more money(or little money) after it's all said and done:
i can go on and on, but i'm going to stop the list or finishing it would take me all day.
my point is that Magic is in no way, shape, or form, cheap. sure, you can make a budget deck for $50. but that doesn't mean you'll win, have fun with it, or get a lot of use out of the thing. hell, it'd be better to buy a $50 video game if you're looking to maximize the amount of time your money will keep you occupied. Even just semi-competitive Magic isn't for somebody who doesn't have much money, and trying to say otherwise is pretty ignorant.
the bottom line is this: Magic is far from a cheap hobby. it may even be one of the furthest things from a cheap hobby.
I don't consider sports hobbies so if you do then I guess that makes sense. That said, some of those sports can get MUCH more expensive than Magic depending on how you're doing it. In order to buy the most expensive Modern deck, you need about $2500. For the most expensive bike out there? That's more expensive than the most expensive Vintage decks. Hiking/camping/fishing can be similarly expensive depending on how seriously you take it. It's not correct to compare the most expensive part of one thing against the least expensive part of another.
And what are you playing your $50 video game on? Your $3k PC?
EDIT: And that's all ignoring the fact that out of all those things, Magic is more capable of paying for itself than any other hobby I can think of. Go 2-2 or better every FNM and pretty soon you're buying staples off store credit or making enough to pay off the initial investment. Can't do that with your $5k camping gear.
3k dollars for a PC that you use just for gaming is absolutely absurd. You really don't need to spend more than 800 dollars to get a 1440 60fps machine that's good for at leat 3 years, I built mine for 600. I COULD have spent the money on a new deck, but I'm too scared of bans to ever invest in modern again.
I also really think that comparing magic to other tabletop hobbies is much fairer, and boardgames, wargaming, and PnP is a much fairer comparison.
Material costs are actually a thing for biking and camping.
If you're comparing competitive Magic events to competitive PC gaming, then $3k is a very reasonable (possibly too cheap actually) number. If you're comparing casual Magic to casual PC gaming, then BOTH come down in price considerably.
I also think Magic and tabletop is a decent comparison but not a good one. Magic is a hybrid between tabletop gaming and card games. I don't have any experience with tabletop gaming, but I've heard prices can vary from nearly nothing for some games to thousands for some miniatures hobbies. For card games, playing competitive Poker has huge buy-ins, while you just need a deck of cards for a friendly game.
From my experience, Magic is expensive, but probably the least expensive hobby I've gotten into. I've spent more than I'd like to admit between car stuff, photography stuff, and firearms/ammo. An exhaust alone costs $500-1,000. A good camera body is at least $1,500-2,500. Good lenses are $800-2,500. Pistols and rifles are $700-2,000 each. A case of ammo in various calibers is anywhere from $250-1,000. Hobbies are expensive, and being good at most hobbies is expensive. There are a lot of options that are less expensive, but often do not give the same reward or satisfaction. The same goes for participating in hobbies at sub-optimal levels. It can be done, but I've always drilled into my head since being a kid that if you're going to do something, you might as well be good at it.
The appeal I had with Modern, especially coming off long-running support for long distance target shooting, was that I make the initial investment once and the upkeep cost is very minimal. Now, banning Twin cost me several hundred dollars building other decks, but for the most part, with the Modern PT gone, there should be stability among top decks. At least it's better than lobbing .308 rounds downrange at $1 a piece.
i wasn't comparing the cheapest end of the things i mentioned to the most expensive cards in magic. i was comparing these hobbies(yes, sports are hobbies) to a tier 2 modern magic deck.
Camping is far from expensive. a nice tent that can sleep up to 6 people comfortably is around $200. as far as biking is concerned, a nice bike that is sturdy and won't need much maintenance is around $600. this is why i stated that staple lands cost from $15-$60. you saying i was making lopsided comparisons makes me feel like you should reread my post.
$3,000 pc? silly person, i'm smarter than to dump $3k into a computer. i paid $300 for a Playstation 4.
$5,000 for camping gear?? what world do you live in?
you must be rather sheltered, because you obviously don't know much about the real world. get outside a little bit, enjoy the sun. go for a walk or something.
Great job with the personal attacks on someone you don't know. Sheltered? Go outside? Good job kid, you passed internet bullying 101. In 7th grade you'll get the next lesson. (See what I did there? I can demean you for no good reason also).
If you're playing at anything higher than FNM (the only places this type of money on cards is necessary) then the equal level of investment needs to be assumed for the hobby of comparison. For instance, I've been on several randonneurs, including Paris-Brest-Paris with my father a couple years before he passed. That's a 1200 kilometer ride, and you need good equipment. We built my bike ourselves and I could probably sell it for $4k down the street, more if I were a discerning seller. And there's no possibility of getting money back simply for riding. Are you telling me that's cheaper than winning my way in store credit to a tier 1 deck?
And good for you, you bought a PS4 for $300. Do you only own 1 game, for $50? Or did you buy a PS for $100, a PS2 for $200, a PS3 for $300, and a PS4 for $300 plus at least 5 games for each, totaling at least $2900?
if you get this upset from somebody making an observation as well as a suggestion, then i wonder how you'd react if i really did insult you...
i'm not thinking about this in terms of making your money back. hobbies don't usually see a monetarial return of what you've purchased. I collect coins for a hobby and have since i was knee high to a grasshopper. you don't hear me talking about how i could cash in and make so much more money than a guy who fishes as a hobby if he were to cash out. well, other than now because i'm using it as an example. you make something a hobby because you have fun doing it and it burns time that you otherwise wouldn't be doing anything. i get my money out of the time spent doing what i love to do. nothing in this world is free. well, other than gifts. but i guess they still do cost somebody something...
anyway. if you're focused on only seeing monetarial returns from your hobbies, then that's on you. not everybody thinks like that, and i'll even go out on a limb and say that you're a part of the 1% of the worlds population that does.
as far as my gaming hobby goes, if you must know, my first playstation was a gift from my aunt. the only games i had for it were Final Fantasy VII and Harvest Moon: Back to Nature, which both had more than enough gameplay to keep me busy(i was 9 at the time). my PS2 was a christmas present. four years after it had been released. by that time, a lot of the good games were only $5-$20. the first console i bought was a PS3 a couple years after it was released. i'm patient and can wait until games are only $20 before i buy them. i see no point in buying a new release game for $50-$60 when i know it'll drop to around $20 a year or so after it's released. so lets see here: 300(ps3)+300(ps4)+$40(fallout4, only game i have for ps4)= $640. now ps3 games: $20x15= $300. $640+$300= $940. still less than a tier 2 deck.
I think that both of you are right in some way. There are many, many different types of hobbies. Some of them are really expensive and some are not. I have seen specific "campers" I know spend $5,000 on camping gear, while I don't expect everyone to do so just to camp.
Here are some of the hobbies I have had in the past 10 years. Magic the Gathering - expensive Weightlifting - fairly cheap, while it cost money for Protein products, it can be cheaper than most others spend on their own food, my membership is lifetime and cost $7.50 for my portion of it Gun collecting - pretty expensive if you are not content with just a few, if you have a place to shoot it just cost ammo Car modifying - there's no denying here and I dare someone to prove me wrong, it's very expensive and a money pit Basketball - $0 basically, I've had the same basketball for over 10 years and it's fine, I guess gas to various courts...
Those are probably the main hobbies I've had during those times. Some are expensive and some aren't.
*Some personal self reflection here... I noticed that as of the past 7 years, my other hobbies have gone by the waste side and MTG has completely taken over. I know that's not healthy.
I can relate to the self reflection. Some advice from someone who was just in the same situation, get back in the weight room. You'll feel much better and be mentally sharper at work and when playing Magic (plus the time investment really isn't too bad. 4-5 hrs a week and eating right goes a long way to making you feel better and improving other aspects of your life as a result. I can totally relate.
i wasn't comparing the cheapest end of the things i mentioned to the most expensive cards in magic. i was comparing these hobbies(yes, sports are hobbies) to a tier 2 modern magic deck.
Camping is far from expensive. a nice tent that can sleep up to 6 people comfortably is around $200. as far as biking is concerned, a nice bike that is sturdy and won't need much maintenance is around $600. this is why i stated that staple lands cost from $15-$60. you saying i was making lopsided comparisons makes me feel like you should reread my post.
$3,000 pc? silly person, i'm smarter than to dump $3k into a computer. i paid $300 for a Playstation 4.
$5,000 for camping gear?? what world do you live in?
you must be rather sheltered, because you obviously don't know much about the real world. get outside a little bit, enjoy the sun. go for a walk or something.
Great job with the personal attacks on someone you don't know. Sheltered? Go outside? Good job kid, you passed internet bullying 101. In 7th grade you'll get the next lesson. (See what I did there? I can demean you for no good reason also).
If you're playing at anything higher than FNM (the only places this type of money on cards is necessary) then the equal level of investment needs to be assumed for the hobby of comparison. For instance, I've been on several randonneurs, including Paris-Brest-Paris with my father a couple years before he passed. That's a 1200 kilometer ride, and you need good equipment. We built my bike ourselves and I could probably sell it for $4k down the street, more if I were a discerning seller. And there's no possibility of getting money back simply for riding. Are you telling me that's cheaper than winning my way in store credit to a tier 1 deck?
And good for you, you bought a PS4 for $300. Do you only own 1 game, for $50? Or did you buy a PS for $100, a PS2 for $200, a PS3 for $300, and a PS4 for $300 plus at least 5 games for each, totaling at least $2900?
if you get this upset from somebody making an observation as well as a suggestion, then i wonder how you'd react if i really did insult you...
i'm not thinking about this in terms of making your money back. hobbies don't usually see a monetarial return of what you've purchased. I collect coins for a hobby and have since i was knee high to a grasshopper. you don't hear me talking about how i could cash in and make so much more money than a guy who fishes as a hobby if he were to cash out. well, other than now because i'm using it as an example. you make something a hobby because you have fun doing it and it burns time that you otherwise wouldn't be doing anything. i get my money out of the time spent doing what i love to do. nothing in this world is free. well, other than gifts. but i guess they still do cost somebody something...
anyway. if you're focused on only seeing monetarial returns from your hobbies, then that's on you. not everybody thinks like that, and i'll even go out on a limb and say that you're a part of the 1% of the worlds population that does.
as far as my gaming hobby goes, if you must know, my first playstation was a gift from my aunt. the only games i had for it were Final Fantasy VII and Harvest Moon: Back to Nature, which both had more than enough gameplay to keep me busy(i was 9 at the time). my PS2 was a christmas present. four years after it had been released. by that time, a lot of the good games were only $5-$20. the first console i bought was a PS3 a couple years after it was released. i'm patient and can wait until games are only $20 before i buy them. i see no point in buying a new release game for $50-$60 when i know it'll drop to around $20 a year or so after it's released. so lets see here: 300(ps3)+300(ps4)+$40(fallout4, only game i have for ps4)= $640. now ps3 games: $20x15= $300. $640+$300= $940. still less than a tier 2 deck.
I'm not talking about cashing out of Magic, I'm talking about the hobby paying for itself. If you're playing competitively, you'd better be able to see something from it or you're just spinning your wheels. Going to a local SCG Open or a local GP once or twice a year for fun is one thing, but if you're traveling for GPs then I hope you can at least cash your FNMs on a regular basis. If you can, then you build competitive decks with your winnings. If you can't, then you shouldn't be traveling to GPs and you don't need the higher tier decks, which significantly lowers the cost of the game.
Please do not call D&D cheap. Have you seen the price of books? I've got PDFs of all the 3.5 stuff, and it's around 13gigs. Each book can go for 20 bucks and there are soooooooo many books.
I've a few hobbies I indulge in. Retro gaming, D&D, Guitar and Car mods. Mods are the most expensive. My old BMW had 1.5k in suspension alone! Guitars are second with the never ending quest for the right tone. I honestly have lost count of the number of Humbuckers I've tried out. And don't get me started on retro gaming. Look up the price of complete in box Chrono Trigger. Or Harvest Moon SNES. The only "cheap" hobby I have is D&D, and thats only because I was given all my PDFs to use. Had I bought them they would probably rivial the car addiction. Magic is expensive, but no more than most other hobbies.
Please do not call D&D cheap. Have you seen the price of books? I've got PDFs of all the 3.5 stuff, and it's around 13gigs. Each book can go for 20 bucks and there are soooooooo many books.
I've a few hobbies I indulge in. Retro gaming, D&D, Guitar and Car mods. Mods are the most expensive. My old BMW had 1.5k in suspension alone! Guitars are second with the never ending quest for the right tone. I honestly have lost count of the number of Humbuckers I've tried out. And don't get me started on retro gaming. Look up the price of complete in box Chrono Trigger. Or Harvest Moon SNES. The only "cheap" hobby I have is D&D, and thats only because I was given all my PDFs to use. Had I bought them they would probably rivial the car addiction. Magic is expensive, but no more than most other hobbies.
So retro gaming is your hobby, and you're buying complete-in-box games? I find that hard to believe. Your analogy is like someone saying Magic is expensive because Black Lotus is expensive.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
No, Black Lotus would be something like the Orange Halo Xbox. Only three out there, and one sold for 15k. Chrono is more inline with a Dual land. Now if I was snapping up copies of the sculptors clay complete in box....
Why is grabbing complete games not a hobby? I play my Conkers, and my fiancee has enjoyed Harvest Moon. It not like they are sealed.
I'm curious what would happen if they started making the cards out of beef jerky. That is about as likely as what you're wondering about. Supplemental products are not made to drive prices, they are designed to be good to play. As much as I hate it, X Masters type sets are designed around Limited play almost more than whatever format is in the name. Commander decks are designed for Commander players primarily, and while the Fetches are great in EDH having them in the precons would result in product shortage for sure. Since they put a lot of weight on these decks being easily accessible for people wanting to get into EDH, that seems like a bad outcome. Tying the hands of the people that design these product, so that they can pump lands into Modern is lazy design, and makes for stale products.
It may not be hyperbole for you, or your friends, or the people people who write about magic that you choose to read, perhaps. What does "overly rich" even mean? By "increasingly" are you talking about raw numbers or percentage of the total magic population? I suppose all it takes for your sentence to be accurate is one more person every year, since that is technically an increase, but is it even meaningful? I suspect your sentence is in fact hyperbole, but I don't know for sure since I try not to be stuck in the viewpoint that my MTG bubble represents the whole.
How boring would it be for the same lands being printed in some product even every other year? It would kill a lot of anticipation (which drives sales). Personally I look forward to each new set for what new things it brings to the game. KTK was perfect because it took some pressure off the absolute need to get the Zen fetches, and at the same time added 5 new staple lands to a growing format. I remember being pretty bored with the Painlands being so long in print this last time around, and I like the painlands quite a bit.
Don't get me wrong...I am eager for the enemy fetches to be reprinted- I have been holding on to a couple hundred bucks in store credit I have from getting out of MTGO that I ear-marked for that purpose like 18 months ago. I would like that to happen sooner rather than later, but I also understand that my wants or play needs are not always the same as what drives game popularity. I am a reasonable adult so I have no ill will towards WotC for continuing to do what has worked for so long in order to protect the longevity of the game.
There is a point- scarcity drives up demand. Psychologically is feeds the aspirational part of our human nature, whether we are conscious of it or not. Corporations know that the demand that is driven up by scarcity gives them greater benefit than making luxury goods cheap enough and easy enough for anyone to be a part.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Referring to the part that I put in bold. I sort of agree with that.. my lack of 2 Flooded Strand and 3 Chalice of the Void keeps me from completely forgetting about the game. Even if I'm at work, at cosplay photoshoots, or simply relaxing at home - it would still sometimes cross my thoughts that maybe 3 or 4 months from now, those cards that I'm lacking would be acquired someday. For now, I just use Arid Mesa to fill the gaps that should be occupied by the Flooded Strands.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I totally don't expect everyone in this forum thread to necessarily agree with this, either. A lot of people have tied money up into lands with the expectation their price wont decline because they wanted the game to be a financial savings plan or something. However, after playing other card games where the mana-bases are more accessible it just makes the game much easier to enjoy and also makes B&R announcements less of a problem if someone has to switch out of a specific color scheme to stay competitive. MtG Modern is the most hassle prone card game ever for having to deal with any kind of change thanks to mana base and being forced to either pony up for more lands in significant amounts of cash, or have to go to a card store to trade up for a fraction of the sell price just to get the right ones, assuming they even have them.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Magic is very expensive, but it is in no means out of reach, nor is it a game for the rich. I make just over 30k a year, and through proper bugeting, can afford Modern easily. Thats with a car payment and all my other bills, with only my rent being split with my fiancee. I may not be able to buy Jund tomorrow, but I can build over time towards it. Mana bases in particualar are much cheaper than when I started playing , and that is a great thing. Before RTR shocks where the most expensive part of your land base. Then it was Zen fetches, but now you can run a mix of off color fetches and still be okay. Mana bases have really gotten cheaper for the most part.
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To say that they need to be a certain price to make a format playable is highly alarmist. With everything at its current price the format remains incredibly popular, and therefore inherently playable.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I LIKE having expensive cards that I have to save up for. I'm proud of my collection and I'm excited when new valuable things come out. I LIKE that I can't just pick up an entire new set of cards for 20 bucks (looking at you FOW) because I feel that games that use that sort of an economic model become VERY stale very quickly (and magic's popularity accounts for this). I love drafting and opening the newest Avacyn or Planeswalker - and I love watching their prices shift over the coming months and years. You simply cannot discount an entire group of people who are involved in the game in a way that is different from the way you are.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I just have a stand point. It doesn't mean that because I have one I therefore invalidate other standpoints carried by others. I think in some regards people have become defensive when an opposing view shows up. Not everyone, but a few people have at least.
I'm a fan of a game that offers an easy route to get into any format someone wants, then offers them the ability to dig as deep as they want into a format. Modern mana bases are by far the doorway to modern and there's enough deck tech out there to see what lands are actually needed to run most plausible archetypes. There's basically no point wasting card space on things that are sub-optimal in regards to it. Also I think some people might be misreading my position on lands. I'm not saying all lands have to be cheap, just something that is so commonly used in all deck techs and so general in function as fetches and shocks need to be more available and affordable. Also, this is mostly going towards the zen fetches.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
you're joking, right?
how does having to shell out $15-$60 or more per card for just a staple land card(and more than likely needing 2-4 of the card plus others around the same price) so you can have proper mana cheap? that's not even mentioning the fact that you'll need rares and mythics, on top of hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of lands, just to make a semi-competitive deck. Magic is Far from, "the least expensive hobby," i can think of. here's a list of hobbies that are cheaper than a Tier 2 modern deck, and you'll Be able to continue these hobbies for the rest of your life without having to invest more money(or little money) after it's all said and done:
-Hiking
-Fishing
-biking
-weight lifting
-Dungeons & Dragons
-swimming
-basketball
-Drawing/art
i can go on and on, but i'm going to stop the list or finishing it would take me all day.
my point is that Magic is in no way, shape, or form, cheap. sure, you can make a budget deck for $50. but that doesn't mean you'll win, have fun with it, or get a lot of use out of the thing. hell, it'd be better to buy a $50 video game if you're looking to maximize the amount of time your money will keep you occupied. Even just semi-competitive Magic isn't for somebody who doesn't have much money, and trying to say otherwise is pretty ignorant.
the bottom line is this: Magic is far from a cheap hobby. it may even be one of the furthest things from a cheap hobby.
And what are you playing your $50 video game on? Your $3k PC?
EDIT: And that's all ignoring the fact that out of all those things, Magic is more capable of paying for itself than any other hobby I can think of. Go 2-2 or better every FNM and pretty soon you're buying staples off store credit or making enough to pay off the initial investment. Can't do that with your $5k camping gear.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Camping is far from expensive. a nice tent that can sleep up to 6 people comfortably is around $200. as far as biking is concerned, a nice bike that is sturdy and won't need much maintenance is around $600. this is why i stated that staple lands cost from $15-$60. you saying i was making lopsided comparisons makes me feel like you should reread my post.
$3,000 pc? silly person, i'm smarter than to dump $3k into a computer. i paid $300 for a Playstation 4.
$5,000 for camping gear?? what world do you live in?
you must be rather sheltered, because you obviously don't know much about the real world. get outside a little bit, enjoy the sun. go for a walk or something.
So for a year at my gym, you could buy Jund instead. Adjust accordingly for cheaper decks. Assuming your Modern deck lasts longer than a year, which is a good assumption now that PTs aren't accelerating bans, that's not the worst return. It's much better if you go into a cheaper deck in the < $1,000 range, which you could buy for about 4-8 months of BJJ hobby expenses.
Of course, once you buy the Magic deck, Modern gets significantly cheaper because you might not have to re-buy cards. That said, if you're investing in multiple decks or want to maintain an arsenal of them, the cost will recur year after year. If you aren't making those extra investments, however, the Modern price drops significantly after your initial investment.
All told, this makes me feel like Modern (not Magic as a whole, necessarily) isn't that expensive. Standard rotations certainly add up, and all of this is still pricey if you're a player with less stable income, but Modern doesn't seem that bad in this admittedly limited comparison.
If you're playing at anything higher than FNM (the only places this type of money on cards is necessary) then the equal level of investment needs to be assumed for the hobby of comparison. For instance, I've been on several randonneurs, including Paris-Brest-Paris with my father a couple years before he passed. That's a 1200 kilometer ride, and you need good equipment. We built my bike ourselves and I could probably sell it for $4k down the street, more if I were a discerning seller. And there's no possibility of getting money back simply for riding. Are you telling me that's cheaper than winning my way in store credit to a tier 1 deck?
And good for you, you bought a PS4 for $300. Do you only own 1 game, for $50? Or did you buy a PS for $100, a PS2 for $200, a PS3 for $300, and a PS4 for $300 plus at least 5 games for each, totaling at least $2900?
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Magic is definitley not cheap, but I can be competitive in modern and spend 1.5-2K on everything needed and then spend a few hundred per year picking up new stuff that I need.
To reiterate the Biking example above (one example you listed) is exponentially more expensive on the competitive level, I used to bike a couple hundred miles per week and raced competitively. Here is what you can expect to spend to be competitive (not even buying near the most expensive stuff out there:
Proper clothing: $100 minimum for a good set of bike shorts and jersey (you'll need 5-6 pairs, plus jackets, cold weather gear, gloves, etc, etc). You'll but a few new pairs each year too.
Shoes: $100+ per pair (you'll probably have at least two pairs)
Helment: $100 mid price for something light and comfortable
Yearly tune up: $200-300
Yearly upgrades/part replacements/tires/tubes/etc: $200-400
Race Bike + Race wheels: $3000-8000 depending on how much you want to spend. Top of the line pro setups run 5-10K for road bikes
Spare wheels to train on/durable pair: $300
Every 3-5 years you'll probably also upgrade your frame and groupset spending another few thousand dollars.
Plus for bad winter weather you don't want your nice bike out in the elements, that's another $1,500 for a winter/training bike/beater bike
Oh yeah, and you need rollers to train indoors: $300
And every week you need extra food to support how many calories you're burning and to keep you fueled on long rides: $100 every two week easily in extra food, ride snacks, etc that you wouldn't eat if you weren't riding.
I've done the math as I had to budget for this, and we are talking at a competitive level here, it is thousands of dollars per year. As the poster above mentioned you are talking $2-3k of initial investment to play modern competitively.
I'm no fan of magic prices, and I think they are too high, but when compared to other hobbies out there it really isn't much of a comparison. Magic is something we choose to do, a luxury and so long as people pay the prices they will continue to be high.
Here are some of the hobbies I have had in the past 10 years.
Magic the Gathering - expensive
Weightlifting - fairly cheap, while it cost money for Protein products, it can be cheaper than most others spend on their own food, my membership is lifetime and cost $7.50 for my portion of it
Gun collecting - pretty expensive if you are not content with just a few, if you have a place to shoot it just cost ammo
Car modifying - there's no denying here and I dare someone to prove me wrong, it's very expensive and a money pit
Basketball - $0 basically, I've had the same basketball for over 10 years and it's fine, I guess gas to various courts...
Those are probably the main hobbies I've had during those times. Some are expensive and some aren't.
*Some personal self reflection here... I noticed that as of the past 7 years, my other hobbies have gone by the waste side and MTG has completely taken over. I know that's not healthy.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)3k dollars for a PC that you use just for gaming is absolutely absurd. You really don't need to spend more than 800 dollars to get a 1440 60fps machine that's good for at leat 3 years, I built mine for 600. I COULD have spent the money on a new deck, but I'm too scared of bans to ever invest in modern again.
I also really think that comparing magic to other tabletop hobbies is much fairer, and boardgames, wargaming, and PnP is a much fairer comparison.
Material costs are actually a thing for biking and camping.
Also, imagine if a sports manufacturer stopped making a particular type of gear, while still supporting a type of event that having that gear gave you a strict advantage in. At least you can still buy high end bikes, tents, and whatever from the manufacturer.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I also think Magic and tabletop is a decent comparison but not a good one. Magic is a hybrid between tabletop gaming and card games. I don't have any experience with tabletop gaming, but I've heard prices can vary from nearly nothing for some games to thousands for some miniatures hobbies. For card games, playing competitive Poker has huge buy-ins, while you just need a deck of cards for a friendly game.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
The appeal I had with Modern, especially coming off long-running support for long distance target shooting, was that I make the initial investment once and the upkeep cost is very minimal. Now, banning Twin cost me several hundred dollars building other decks, but for the most part, with the Modern PT gone, there should be stability among top decks. At least it's better than lobbing .308 rounds downrange at $1 a piece.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
if you get this upset from somebody making an observation as well as a suggestion, then i wonder how you'd react if i really did insult you...
i'm not thinking about this in terms of making your money back. hobbies don't usually see a monetarial return of what you've purchased. I collect coins for a hobby and have since i was knee high to a grasshopper. you don't hear me talking about how i could cash in and make so much more money than a guy who fishes as a hobby if he were to cash out. well, other than now because i'm using it as an example. you make something a hobby because you have fun doing it and it burns time that you otherwise wouldn't be doing anything. i get my money out of the time spent doing what i love to do. nothing in this world is free. well, other than gifts. but i guess they still do cost somebody something...
anyway. if you're focused on only seeing monetarial returns from your hobbies, then that's on you. not everybody thinks like that, and i'll even go out on a limb and say that you're a part of the 1% of the worlds population that does.
as far as my gaming hobby goes, if you must know, my first playstation was a gift from my aunt. the only games i had for it were Final Fantasy VII and Harvest Moon: Back to Nature, which both had more than enough gameplay to keep me busy(i was 9 at the time). my PS2 was a christmas present. four years after it had been released. by that time, a lot of the good games were only $5-$20. the first console i bought was a PS3 a couple years after it was released. i'm patient and can wait until games are only $20 before i buy them. i see no point in buying a new release game for $50-$60 when i know it'll drop to around $20 a year or so after it's released. so lets see here: 300(ps3)+300(ps4)+$40(fallout4, only game i have for ps4)= $640. now ps3 games: $20x15= $300. $640+$300= $940. still less than a tier 2 deck.
I can relate to the self reflection. Some advice from someone who was just in the same situation, get back in the weight room. You'll feel much better and be mentally sharper at work and when playing Magic (plus the time investment really isn't too bad. 4-5 hrs a week and eating right goes a long way to making you feel better and improving other aspects of your life as a result. I can totally relate.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I've a few hobbies I indulge in. Retro gaming, D&D, Guitar and Car mods. Mods are the most expensive. My old BMW had 1.5k in suspension alone! Guitars are second with the never ending quest for the right tone. I honestly have lost count of the number of Humbuckers I've tried out. And don't get me started on retro gaming. Look up the price of complete in box Chrono Trigger. Or Harvest Moon SNES. The only "cheap" hobby I have is D&D, and thats only because I was given all my PDFs to use. Had I bought them they would probably rivial the car addiction. Magic is expensive, but no more than most other hobbies.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Why is grabbing complete games not a hobby? I play my Conkers, and my fiancee has enjoyed Harvest Moon. It not like they are sealed.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero