Dr. Worm, I know you aren't the most competitive player, but if they printed modern worthy manlands, or enemy fastlands, would you re-divert your funds? I could see a cycle of either doing a lot to the format.
It one point I might have, and at some future date I might, but for the foreseeable future I won't. I have a self-imposed limit to MTG spending and I am sticking to it. I suppose it is not %100 out of the question, but only if a manland defined an archetype and that archetype was one that I wanted (and could afford) to play. If they printed a really pushed BG manland, for example, and it was in the $30 range, but that land only critically lent itself to decks that ran Goyf and/or full sets of LotV, then I wouldn't spend to get it. So far the only manland that has been an absolutely critical part of Modern has been Colonade, and only for a few brief weeks when Jeskai hard control was a contender. Even now Creeping Tar Pit (my favorite of them) is only just a helpful card in Grixis Midrange, not a critical card.
I can't see any new manlands being pushed so far that they would become a critical part of an archetype.
I just think its funny how often the 'so I'll take my money elsewhere haarumpphhh' comes up in this game, it makes me think that nerds (said belovingly) think their money is more valuable than other people's. Which is interesting to me as an observer.
It's because Wizards, like most large companies, turn away from player-focused to money-focused. Instead of trying to please players and give them the small stuff they want, you give us stuff we don't want and make us mad about it. MTGO bugs are still there, we had prize/entry changes that people hated, no fetches in BFZ, no Serum Visions in MM2015, crazy high MM2015 prices that didn't justify pack costs, etc. I absolutely would invest my money elsewhere if there was a reasonable place to do it, but there isn't. I'm still waiting for Force of Will to get more printers so I can have the availability I need to get cards.
I just think its funny how often the 'so I'll take my money elsewhere haarumpphhh' comes up in this game, it makes me think that nerds (said belovingly) think their money is more valuable than other people's. Which is interesting to me as an observer.
It's because Wizards, like most large companies, turn away from player-focused to money-focused. Instead of trying to please players and give them the small stuff they want, you give us stuff we don't want and make us mad about it. MTGO bugs are still there, we had prize/entry changes that people hated, no fetches in BFZ, no Serum Visions in MM2015, crazy high MM2015 prices that didn't justify pack costs, etc. I absolutely would invest my money elsewhere if there was a reasonable place to do it, but there isn't. I'm still waiting for Force of Will to get more printers so I can have the availability I need to get cards.
I'm not an apologist, but I think they work very hard to please players--apparently everyone would prefer to be mad about BFZ fetches and serum visions rather than recall that we just got fetches (which work plenty fine and are really affordable). A $15 common is the same as any other card you need 4x to play modern with (ie...drop stupid principals/ get over it and/or yourself).
Wizards lets the price of cards rise in the same way that you slowly accelerate with the gas pedal in a car. Right before you go over the speed limit, release the gas (do a reprint). They do this with all their cards, and the game is able to continue. Release the gas too often, you never get to profit town--understandably unacceptable.
Critical to my enjoyment to the game is ignoring the stuff I see on the internet, well worth trying. I'm not mad about the stupid prize support at GPs because I'm never going to win one.
I just think its funny how often the 'so I'll take my money elsewhere haarumpphhh' comes up in this game, it makes me think that nerds (said belovingly) think their money is more valuable than other people's. Which is interesting to me as an observer.
It's because Wizards, like most large companies, turn away from player-focused to money-focused. Instead of trying to please players and give them the small stuff they want, you give us stuff we don't want and make us mad about it. MTGO bugs are still there, we had prize/entry changes that people hated, no fetches in BFZ, no Serum Visions in MM2015, crazy high MM2015 prices that didn't justify pack costs, etc. I absolutely would invest my money elsewhere if there was a reasonable place to do it, but there isn't. I'm still waiting for Force of Will to get more printers so I can have the availability I need to get cards.
I'm not an apologist, but I think they work very hard to please players--apparently everyone would prefer to be mad about BFZ fetches and serum visions rather than recall that we just got fetches (which work plenty fine and are really affordable). A $15 common is the same as any other card you need 4x to play modern with (ie...drop stupid principals/ get over it and/or yourself).
Wizards lets the price of cards rise in the same way that you slowly accelerate with the gas pedal in a car. Right before you go over the speed limit, release the gas (do a reprint). They do this with all their cards, and the game is able to continue. Release the gas too often, you never get to profit town--understandably unacceptable.
Critical to my enjoyment to the game is ignoring the stuff I see on the internet, well worth trying. I'm not mad about the stupid prize support at GPs because I'm never going to win one.
¯\_(O_o)_/¯
I do recall we got fetches, which is nice and was unexpected. But that in no way justifies them with their other decisions. You don't give the players something good so you can disappoint them later on. Why, for example, didn't we get Serum Visions in MM2015? Would it break the format? I doubt it's breaking the limited format. Why didn't we get Damnation either? Is that breaking the format? We got Comet Storm, surely Damnation wouldn't break it? What about a rare land cycle reprint? Zendikar fetches? Manlands? Couldn't we have gotten stuff like Grove? Instead we got these mediocre lands.
Like I've told people before about MM2015, the set was really awful. The prices just couldn't justify selling packs, every store sold them at a price higher than the EV. The value of cards just wasn't there, and a lot of it could have been made up in commons and uncommons like Serum Visions (which is never coming back to Standard anyways). People assumed it would be in Origins, then it went up when it wasn't.
Wizards also tends to work on a principle, like most trading card companies, that rarer cards are generally worth more money. Constructed viability aside, rares should be worth more than commons because they're harder to get. That means, in general, commons should be worth less than rares. The fact that it's $15 screams that there's a problem somewhere with something.
Anyways, Wizards is at a point where people are not getting into/not playing their game because of monetary issues. When I first got back into Magic, my whole Standard deck cost me around $100. Now, it cost me >$300. The game is naturally getting more expensive and Wizards simply isn't helping with their stance on reprints. Like I've said a bunch of times, I know a lot of people not playing Modern because cards are expensive.
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
But they aren't giving the players something good with the intent of disappointingthem, even if the thing that Wizards does is disappointing to you. Immature to think that.
Why did we need serum visions in mm15, or any of the recent sets? Would it have helped mm2 draft environment? How about grove or damnation? Yeah they're expensive and I want them too, but clearly Wizards was conservative with this set and it didn't work out generally to the player base. I don't know anyone who was happy with it (except me, I pulled a heierach, foil goyf, and norn in my prize pool and called it quits). They didn't do it to **** you, they just didn't reprint everything you wanted--I dunno about your lgs, but all those MM15 packs are GONE, what does that tell you?
I was really happy to get heirarchs and fulminator mages really cheap. mm1 looks way better by comparision, but by mm3, I think you should assume they'll have the mm product better made to serve the community its meant to support. MM is a new concept, give it time.
Rares are generally worth more than commons. Serum visions is worth more than many rares because it is RARER than most recent rare cards (low printing) and in higher demand. Seems all is right with the world, sometimes you have to divorce game concepts for real ones, and vice versa. Any rare in darksteel that has the same demand as serum visions would be more than $15. Debatable?
To end, there is always someone who can't afford SOMETHING. Modern is supposed to be more expensive than standard. Maybe your friends who don't play modern simply don't value the format enough to justify spending the money, but where is that line?
I'm not an apologist, but I think they work very hard to please players--apparently everyone would prefer to be mad about BFZ fetches and serum visions rather than recall that we just got fetches (which work plenty fine and are really affordable). A $15 common is the same as any other card you need 4x to play modern with (ie...drop stupid principals/ get over it and/or yourself).
I totally agree with you about serum visions and other commons/uncommons that are $7+, people get hung up on a rarity issue that is fairly irrelevant after a set is no longer in print. Complaining that SV is $13, but being happy about Thougtseize being $15 is utterly silly if you are putting four of each in the same deck.
We did just get fetches, and that is probably what keeps me from quitting the format entirely, but the fail on their part (IMO) is that the enemy fetches have been a real cost issue for a lot of people since RTR. They started to rise then and have not stopped overall. The issue cannot be explained away by saying they didn't know when they were designing BFZ. They were either negligent in addressing it or have an utter disregard for this as an issue. When they were designing BFZ Tarn was $70. They either thought that allied fetches were going to bring the cost of most Modern mana bases enough to ease unrest, or they don't really care about the dissenters. I think it's the latter because those dissenters may be vocal, but they still end up giving WOTC and it's retail partners their money.
Oh, and I did forget about Treetop Village (though you're right they aren't expensive), I'm skeptical that if you weren't running RR Jund would have that much worse a game. I mean if you are making a deck the best it can be it pays to run the cards that make your win rate better, even if by only a small amount, so if you are building an optmal Grixis Midrange deck you run CTP, even though a vast majority of your wins come from your delve creatures + burn. Compare that to a hard control deck like Jeskai (not the Midrange version) when it was tier 1. It had almost no creatures MD, and won off the back of Colonade more often than not. Without that card the deck becomes almost unplaybly worse.
Even though I'm disappointed that I'll have to run flooded strand/Bloodstained Mire in place of scalding tarn for awhile, I understand the reasoning behind the fetchlands not being there because standard having that kind of color fixing would be a little too good. My issue is that Wizards has now set a precedent to where the fetchlands will always have huge price disparities because they are never printed together in a full set.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
But they aren't giving the players something good with the intent of disappointingthem, even if the thing that Wizards does is disappointing to you. Immature to think that.
Why is it immature to want them to print a product that I (or ds) wants to buy? I guess I can see why you'd think that about blanket statements regarding how good a job WOTC is doing, but when it comes to a person deciding what to spend their money on the more frugal and mature thing to do is to hold out for something that is worth it to that person.
To end, there is always someone who can't afford SOMETHING. Modern is supposed to be more expensive than standard. Maybe your friends who don't play modern simply don't value the format enough to justify spending the money, but where is that line?
The line is value to the individual. That line is different for each person,and they rightfully judge Modern based on that perspective. For me the line is well below having to spend $340 on the last four cards in a Grixis mana base.
I think their is a difference between not being able to afford something, and not seeing the value in the price. If fetch lands are at most $40 I may not be able to afford them (I can now, but this is an example), but I would buy them if I could. I value them at that level. On the other hand when they are $50+ I wouldn't buy them even if I did have the money to spend because the value isn't there for me as a player.
There is this argument that comes up every now and then with someone saying that all dual lands should be Commons and uncommons because the most basic element of a deck should be cheap. I actually disagree with that idea to a large extent. The mana base is not the most basic part of a deck, it is the most critical and the element that is shared with the most other decks. Why wouldn't that be one of the elements that you spend money on to improve? I do value great lands quite highly, but I have a limit.
The question though is whether or not its worth holding the design of new sets hostage to the needs of the secondary market. My answer, and most likely Wizards's too is that despite the pain to the player base. I was going to buy scalding tarns to play grixis twin, but that's on hold, so I'm not speaking as someone who's insensitive and already has everything they want. While it is still steep, we are getting quite a few reprints, and the new cheap fetches while they aren't optimal do let you play any deck well enough to win you something at your local FNM--you just can't perfectly mimic the modern decks winning GPs perfectly--those players either had the cards or justify the cost.
Support of course could be better, but it's impossible to get 100% satisfaction with the price of cards--again with sacrificing future design. None of this discussion is really fair to be talking about mid-modern season (or immediately post), players on a constricted budget should think ahead. It is a shame when spikes of key staples come out of nowhere, you but you can't really solve that as WOTC.
Long run, the majority players are happy with the new stuff we get, even if it doesn't meet the logical expectations of the players and is better for the game. As long as we aren't dealing with an invisible reserved list, it'll work itself out.
I'm personally happy that they even reprinted the onslaught fetchlands. It means that new modern players could at least participate in the format albeit with non-optimal mana bases.
Ya this. Honestly I need to just grow up and accept that I will lose 1-2% of games because I couldn't fetch up basic mountain. If someone offered me 300 dollars to concede one game out of a hundred I think I would do it.....
Even though I'm disappointed that I'll have to run flooded strand/Bloodstained Mire in place of scalding tarn for awhile, I understand the reasoning behind the fetchlands not being there because standard having that kind of color fixing would be a little too good.
I don't quite understand this argument. It's not like them being printed will make any current deck too good, rather it could open up new decks if their was better access to all color pairings. No standard deck is going to run more fetchlands just because all 10 are in Standard. It just changes which ones are in a deck
Long run, the majority players are happy with the new stuff we get, even if it doesn't meet the logical expectations of the players and is better for the game. As long as we aren't dealing with an invisible reserved list, it'll work itself out.
You are confusing the broad with the specific. You are using arguments supporting the overall value to design and development, but as good as thoae may be they are meaningless to an individual and what that person is willing to spend their money on. No matter how good and long sighted the design of a set is, there is still no reason for the individual to spend money on it if there is nothing they value.
This is not a thread about the health of the game or even the health of the format, it is about the prices in the format, and that will always boil down to the individual and what they value. Even discussion about what staples to get first and price trends based on social factors still boil down to "can I afford it, and do I value it at that price?"
Even though I'm disappointed that I'll have to run flooded strand/Bloodstained Mire in place of scalding tarn for awhile, I understand the reasoning behind the fetchlands not being there because standard having that kind of color fixing would be a little too good.
I don't quite understand this argument. It's not like them being printed will make any current deck too good, rather it could open up new decks if their was better access to all color pairings. No standard deck is going to run more fetchlands just because all 10 are in Standard. It just changes which ones are in a deck
Long run, the majority players are happy with the new stuff we get, even if it doesn't meet the logical expectations of the players and is better for the game. As long as we aren't dealing with an invisible reserved list, it'll work itself out.
You are confusing the broad with the specific. You are using arguments supporting the overall value to design and development, but as good as thoae may be they are meaningless to an individual and what that person is willing to spend their money on. No matter how good and long sighted the design of a set is, there is still no reason for the individual to spend money on it if there is nothing they value.
This is not a thread about the health of the game or even the health of the format, it is about the prices in the format, and that will always boil down to the individual and what they value. Even discussion about what staples to get first and price trends based on social factors still boil down to "can I afford it, and do I value it at that price?"
Isn't it obvious that Wizards creates new cards aimed at getting players to value them? I'm over you saying you don't want to allocate money on BFZ, I don't believe there won't be something you want out of it. Now I see that you want something else as the value of the thing you were holding out for isn't happening. I hope the thing you don't know about doesn't change your priority had you know in retrospect. Or you just find more cash to throw at the game...thats what I do
About withholding color fixing in standard--the lands printed really shape the character of standard--and it needs to change often or else people get bored. Going from a mono color format to a multi color one is one way to keep it interesting, going from aggro to midrange, to whatever else is in standard is another. Its how they get the values of cards and the playability of cards to shift as the sets move in and out (like pack rat and nightveil spectre for example). The fixing being too good or too plentiful/power level of standard all should look like peaks and valleys, which influences what can and can't be in standard in a given moment.
Like I've told people before about MM2015, the set was really awful. The prices just couldn't justify selling packs, every store sold them at a price higher than the EV. The value of cards just wasn't there, and a lot of it could have been made up in commons and uncommons like Serum Visions (which is never coming back to Standard anyways). People assumed it would be in Origins, then it went up when it wasn't.
Considering Scry was just made into a keyword, I highly doubt this.
Disclaimer: I own a Tarmogoyf that I legitimately bought with real money.
The fact of the matter is, no matter what Wizards prints, I have the right to buy other things. Wizards does not have my bank account number stored in their archives that they pull money out of and ship cards to me; I decide what to buy and when to buy it.
However, unlike some posters (No ill will) I do not go into any set thinking "I'm going to order a box"; I'll wait, see, and THEN buy the cards I think I'll need. I didn't buy any MM2 because the only card I need out of it is Goyf (who from a quick google search is in 1 pack out of 121, and that means spending $1,210 per unless you get really lucky) and I would rather not play the lottery if capable.
I didn't buy anything out of Fate/Dragons because they didn't have any cards I needed, and the only things I bought out of Origins were 4x Abbot of Keral Keep and 1x Chandra, Fire of Khaledeshaishionishm.
So when I say I'm disappointed in Enemy Fetches not being in BfZ, know that I'm not saying I am not going to pick up any of BfZ, just that the likelyhood is a lot less; if they print enemy Manlands, I most certainly will pick up the BG and WB (If either are any good) playsets, and will likely have my eye out for any Eldrazi Titans.
I just really wanted to not spend a crapton on "proper" lands for Jund because Goyf is already so frakken ridiculous. They aren't a pressing issue as I can easily use a different Fetch instead of Verdant Catacombs, but it's not..... complete until I get the right ones.
Mind you, I'm just an unfortunate statistic of why Wizards doesn't want to cater to Modern players; people like me don't spend as much as Standard players :/
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
I dunno about your lgs, but all those MM15 packs are GONE, what does that tell you?
I was really happy to get heirarchs and fulminator mages really cheap. mm1 looks way better by comparision, but by mm3, I think you should assume they'll have the mm product better made to serve the community its meant to support. MM is a new concept, give it time.
My LGS sold out of MMA instantly. They had a couple of boxes for individual sales that sold out on release weekend. The rest was preordered or drafted on release weekend. My LGS took two months to sell out of MM2015, and we drafted it at cost a few times, plus they had some random group of kids come drop a boat load on it after one of them opened a foil Goyf. The set was very poorly received.
Wizards should have known what to expect out of MM after the first run. We were upset the prices went up, and upset not enough got reprinted. Still, the set was largely received well because it was cost efficient to buy boxes even before everything skyrocketted. At least they listened that we were upset with that mythic dragon cycle, and now we only got that garbage Comet Storm. But considering the sheer number of cards people were upset they didn't include, it's kind of crazy to think Wizards had our best interest in mind. Like I said, this set strikes me as them testing the waters as to how little they can put in the set and still sell out. I don't think they can put any less than this without pitchforks outside their office, but they probably don't need to put much more to make it work. As long as the next MM has Snapcaster and Liliana in it, people will be okay. Then again, considering there was no Damnation, Wurmcoil, or Batterskull, I wouldn't exactly be surprised.
Isn't it obvious that Wizards creates new cards aimed at getting players to value them? I'm over you saying you don't want to allocate money on BFZ, I don't believe there won't be something you want out of it. Now I see that you want something else as the value of the thing you were holding out for isn't happening. I hope the thing you don't know about doesn't change your priority had you know in retrospect.
Well, I did say that I might trade for one or two things (on puca), but that is significantly less than I has set aside. Modern is expensive, though it has been less so for me due to how long I have been playing, and in order to play it I have to plan out my purchases and get in on low prices on staples that I expect to rise. Giving in to impulse purchases because there is something that maybe I would play cuts down on my ability to get the cards I know I will use often. It is likely that there will be a few cards printed in BFZ that will be relevant in Modern. These kinds of cards are usually very archetype dependent, but every once in a while an Abrupt Decay kind of card is printed that will become a staple. I won't be buying the archetype dependent cards unless it is one I play, though trading for the occasional staple can happen. The odds that there will be 5 cards in BFZ that I would use as often as I would the enemy fetches, and that I value at the same level, are pretty slim.
Most people know that cracking packs is an expensive way to get cards you want unless you have a really good reselling infrastructure in place, but I enjoy it. These days I only do it when I know there are several cards I really want, like when I cracked packs for Khans. In Khans there were several cards I wanted above and beyond the 5 fetches, so for me it was a good treasure hunt. Any money I would have spent on a box or two, not to mention the singles I would have purchased from a shop that also cracks packs, will stay firmly put.
Or you just find more cash to throw at the game...thats what I do
At one point perhaps, but I'm in my 40s, married, and have two kids. In order for me to spend on MTG I have to plan out the use of my entertainment budget, trade, or sell cards. I am building a staples pool, so I'm not going to sell or trade those.
The fixing being too good or too plentiful/power level of standard all should look like peaks and valleys, which influences what can and can't be in standard in a given moment.
Last time I was at my lgs (end of july) we still had plenty of modern masters packs for sale. We can sometimes get crowds of 40 and 50 people for draft so I'd say it gets a good amount of customers too. I don't understand how some shops are selling out so fast. Like others said, the product was received poorly. It's still selling though. Most people buy packs "here and there" or once a week.
Even though I'm disappointed that I'll have to run flooded strand/Bloodstained Mire in place of scalding tarn for awhile, I understand the reasoning behind the fetchlands not being there because standard having that kind of color fixing would be a little too good. My issue is that Wizards has now set a precedent to where the fetchlands will always have huge price disparities because they are never printed together in a full set.
Fetches aren't even that good at color-fixing without shocklands and shocklands aren't in Standard. Having fetches would not make Standard mana-bases too good.
I didn't see the announcement until today. I am sure that there isn't a good reason for this. Wizards constantly makes bad judgments for things like this. I guess I'll be sticking to shard colors.
I know it's getting off the topic at hand, but Ghost Quarter foil is pretty high right now and nearly impossible to find. Is there a reason why?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I recently bought one from SCG for $15 (Dissension) but when I looked at TCG to grab the other 3 I need to complete the playset there were only 2 available by 2 different sellers for $30 and $40 each! I don't get it. They are really hard to find. (Only talking about Dissension)
I recently bought one from SCG for $15 (Dissension) but when I looked at TCG to grab the other 3 I need to complete the playset there were only 2 available by 2 different sellers for $30 and $40 each! I don't get it. They are really hard to find. (Only talking about Dissension)
That's weird. I got mine for $8 (Innistrad) two weeks ago. Can't find any on Amazon any more. Wonder what caused the shortage...
EDIT: Well it looks like there are still Innistrad ones on TCG Player. The dissension ones are freaking expensive though good lord
Personally, I got them for Modern Loam Pox, but I didn't think it was a particularly popular deck. I do have to state some local anecdotal evidence though too. Two guys in my area are playing some sort of Loam deck (whereas I've never seen it in 3 years of Modern in person). Neither of them is using Foil Ghost Quarters, or any foils in their decks though.
I know that there was some hype around GR Tron and Bloom Titan for a short lived while, but that died quickly. (Ghost Quarter is notoriously good against those decks.)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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Treetop Village and Raging Ravine are a critical part of Jund. There are not that expensive though.
It's because Wizards, like most large companies, turn away from player-focused to money-focused. Instead of trying to please players and give them the small stuff they want, you give us stuff we don't want and make us mad about it. MTGO bugs are still there, we had prize/entry changes that people hated, no fetches in BFZ, no Serum Visions in MM2015, crazy high MM2015 prices that didn't justify pack costs, etc. I absolutely would invest my money elsewhere if there was a reasonable place to do it, but there isn't. I'm still waiting for Force of Will to get more printers so I can have the availability I need to get cards.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I'm not an apologist, but I think they work very hard to please players--apparently everyone would prefer to be mad about BFZ fetches and serum visions rather than recall that we just got fetches (which work plenty fine and are really affordable). A $15 common is the same as any other card you need 4x to play modern with (ie...drop stupid principals/ get over it and/or yourself).
Wizards lets the price of cards rise in the same way that you slowly accelerate with the gas pedal in a car. Right before you go over the speed limit, release the gas (do a reprint). They do this with all their cards, and the game is able to continue. Release the gas too often, you never get to profit town--understandably unacceptable.
Critical to my enjoyment to the game is ignoring the stuff I see on the internet, well worth trying. I'm not mad about the stupid prize support at GPs because I'm never going to win one.
¯\_(O_o)_/¯
I do recall we got fetches, which is nice and was unexpected. But that in no way justifies them with their other decisions. You don't give the players something good so you can disappoint them later on. Why, for example, didn't we get Serum Visions in MM2015? Would it break the format? I doubt it's breaking the limited format. Why didn't we get Damnation either? Is that breaking the format? We got Comet Storm, surely Damnation wouldn't break it? What about a rare land cycle reprint? Zendikar fetches? Manlands? Couldn't we have gotten stuff like Grove? Instead we got these mediocre lands.
Like I've told people before about MM2015, the set was really awful. The prices just couldn't justify selling packs, every store sold them at a price higher than the EV. The value of cards just wasn't there, and a lot of it could have been made up in commons and uncommons like Serum Visions (which is never coming back to Standard anyways). People assumed it would be in Origins, then it went up when it wasn't.
Wizards also tends to work on a principle, like most trading card companies, that rarer cards are generally worth more money. Constructed viability aside, rares should be worth more than commons because they're harder to get. That means, in general, commons should be worth less than rares. The fact that it's $15 screams that there's a problem somewhere with something.
Anyways, Wizards is at a point where people are not getting into/not playing their game because of monetary issues. When I first got back into Magic, my whole Standard deck cost me around $100. Now, it cost me >$300. The game is naturally getting more expensive and Wizards simply isn't helping with their stance on reprints. Like I've said a bunch of times, I know a lot of people not playing Modern because cards are expensive.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Why did we need serum visions in mm15, or any of the recent sets? Would it have helped mm2 draft environment? How about grove or damnation? Yeah they're expensive and I want them too, but clearly Wizards was conservative with this set and it didn't work out generally to the player base. I don't know anyone who was happy with it (except me, I pulled a heierach, foil goyf, and norn in my prize pool and called it quits). They didn't do it to **** you, they just didn't reprint everything you wanted--I dunno about your lgs, but all those MM15 packs are GONE, what does that tell you?
I was really happy to get heirarchs and fulminator mages really cheap. mm1 looks way better by comparision, but by mm3, I think you should assume they'll have the mm product better made to serve the community its meant to support. MM is a new concept, give it time.
Rares are generally worth more than commons. Serum visions is worth more than many rares because it is RARER than most recent rare cards (low printing) and in higher demand. Seems all is right with the world, sometimes you have to divorce game concepts for real ones, and vice versa. Any rare in darksteel that has the same demand as serum visions would be more than $15. Debatable?
To end, there is always someone who can't afford SOMETHING. Modern is supposed to be more expensive than standard. Maybe your friends who don't play modern simply don't value the format enough to justify spending the money, but where is that line?
I totally agree with you about serum visions and other commons/uncommons that are $7+, people get hung up on a rarity issue that is fairly irrelevant after a set is no longer in print. Complaining that SV is $13, but being happy about Thougtseize being $15 is utterly silly if you are putting four of each in the same deck.
We did just get fetches, and that is probably what keeps me from quitting the format entirely, but the fail on their part (IMO) is that the enemy fetches have been a real cost issue for a lot of people since RTR. They started to rise then and have not stopped overall. The issue cannot be explained away by saying they didn't know when they were designing BFZ. They were either negligent in addressing it or have an utter disregard for this as an issue. When they were designing BFZ Tarn was $70. They either thought that allied fetches were going to bring the cost of most Modern mana bases enough to ease unrest, or they don't really care about the dissenters. I think it's the latter because those dissenters may be vocal, but they still end up giving WOTC and it's retail partners their money.
Oh, and I did forget about Treetop Village (though you're right they aren't expensive), I'm skeptical that if you weren't running RR Jund would have that much worse a game. I mean if you are making a deck the best it can be it pays to run the cards that make your win rate better, even if by only a small amount, so if you are building an optmal Grixis Midrange deck you run CTP, even though a vast majority of your wins come from your delve creatures + burn. Compare that to a hard control deck like Jeskai (not the Midrange version) when it was tier 1. It had almost no creatures MD, and won off the back of Colonade more often than not. Without that card the deck becomes almost unplaybly worse.
That is what I mean by a critical manland.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Why is it immature to want them to print a product that I (or ds) wants to buy? I guess I can see why you'd think that about blanket statements regarding how good a job WOTC is doing, but when it comes to a person deciding what to spend their money on the more frugal and mature thing to do is to hold out for something that is worth it to that person.
The line is value to the individual. That line is different for each person,and they rightfully judge Modern based on that perspective. For me the line is well below having to spend $340 on the last four cards in a Grixis mana base.
I think their is a difference between not being able to afford something, and not seeing the value in the price. If fetch lands are at most $40 I may not be able to afford them (I can now, but this is an example), but I would buy them if I could. I value them at that level. On the other hand when they are $50+ I wouldn't buy them even if I did have the money to spend because the value isn't there for me as a player.
There is this argument that comes up every now and then with someone saying that all dual lands should be Commons and uncommons because the most basic element of a deck should be cheap. I actually disagree with that idea to a large extent. The mana base is not the most basic part of a deck, it is the most critical and the element that is shared with the most other decks. Why wouldn't that be one of the elements that you spend money on to improve? I do value great lands quite highly, but I have a limit.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Support of course could be better, but it's impossible to get 100% satisfaction with the price of cards--again with sacrificing future design. None of this discussion is really fair to be talking about mid-modern season (or immediately post), players on a constricted budget should think ahead. It is a shame when spikes of key staples come out of nowhere, you but you can't really solve that as WOTC.
Long run, the majority players are happy with the new stuff we get, even if it doesn't meet the logical expectations of the players and is better for the game. As long as we aren't dealing with an invisible reserved list, it'll work itself out.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
If those needs are years old, then yes it might be. I'll also add my answers to another quote:
I don't quite understand this argument. It's not like them being printed will make any current deck too good, rather it could open up new decks if their was better access to all color pairings. No standard deck is going to run more fetchlands just because all 10 are in Standard. It just changes which ones are in a deck
You are confusing the broad with the specific. You are using arguments supporting the overall value to design and development, but as good as thoae may be they are meaningless to an individual and what that person is willing to spend their money on. No matter how good and long sighted the design of a set is, there is still no reason for the individual to spend money on it if there is nothing they value.
This is not a thread about the health of the game or even the health of the format, it is about the prices in the format, and that will always boil down to the individual and what they value. Even discussion about what staples to get first and price trends based on social factors still boil down to "can I afford it, and do I value it at that price?"
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Isn't it obvious that Wizards creates new cards aimed at getting players to value them? I'm over you saying you don't want to allocate money on BFZ, I don't believe there won't be something you want out of it. Now I see that you want something else as the value of the thing you were holding out for isn't happening. I hope the thing you don't know about doesn't change your priority had you know in retrospect. Or you just find more cash to throw at the game...thats what I do
About withholding color fixing in standard--the lands printed really shape the character of standard--and it needs to change often or else people get bored. Going from a mono color format to a multi color one is one way to keep it interesting, going from aggro to midrange, to whatever else is in standard is another. Its how they get the values of cards and the playability of cards to shift as the sets move in and out (like pack rat and nightveil spectre for example). The fixing being too good or too plentiful/power level of standard all should look like peaks and valleys, which influences what can and can't be in standard in a given moment.
Considering Scry was just made into a keyword, I highly doubt this.
Disclaimer: I own a Tarmogoyf that I legitimately bought with real money.
The fact of the matter is, no matter what Wizards prints, I have the right to buy other things. Wizards does not have my bank account number stored in their archives that they pull money out of and ship cards to me; I decide what to buy and when to buy it.
However, unlike some posters (No ill will) I do not go into any set thinking "I'm going to order a box"; I'll wait, see, and THEN buy the cards I think I'll need. I didn't buy any MM2 because the only card I need out of it is Goyf (who from a quick google search is in 1 pack out of 121, and that means spending $1,210 per unless you get really lucky) and I would rather not play the lottery if capable.
I didn't buy anything out of Fate/Dragons because they didn't have any cards I needed, and the only things I bought out of Origins were 4x Abbot of Keral Keep and 1x Chandra, Fire of Khaledeshaishionishm.
So when I say I'm disappointed in Enemy Fetches not being in BfZ, know that I'm not saying I am not going to pick up any of BfZ, just that the likelyhood is a lot less; if they print enemy Manlands, I most certainly will pick up the BG and WB (If either are any good) playsets, and will likely have my eye out for any Eldrazi Titans.
I just really wanted to not spend a crapton on "proper" lands for Jund because Goyf is already so frakken ridiculous. They aren't a pressing issue as I can easily use a different Fetch instead of Verdant Catacombs, but it's not..... complete until I get the right ones.
Mind you, I'm just an unfortunate statistic of why Wizards doesn't want to cater to Modern players; people like me don't spend as much as Standard players :/
My LGS sold out of MMA instantly. They had a couple of boxes for individual sales that sold out on release weekend. The rest was preordered or drafted on release weekend. My LGS took two months to sell out of MM2015, and we drafted it at cost a few times, plus they had some random group of kids come drop a boat load on it after one of them opened a foil Goyf. The set was very poorly received.
Wizards should have known what to expect out of MM after the first run. We were upset the prices went up, and upset not enough got reprinted. Still, the set was largely received well because it was cost efficient to buy boxes even before everything skyrocketted. At least they listened that we were upset with that mythic dragon cycle, and now we only got that garbage Comet Storm. But considering the sheer number of cards people were upset they didn't include, it's kind of crazy to think Wizards had our best interest in mind. Like I said, this set strikes me as them testing the waters as to how little they can put in the set and still sell out. I don't think they can put any less than this without pitchforks outside their office, but they probably don't need to put much more to make it work. As long as the next MM has Snapcaster and Liliana in it, people will be okay. Then again, considering there was no Damnation, Wurmcoil, or Batterskull, I wouldn't exactly be surprised.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Well, I did say that I might trade for one or two things (on puca), but that is significantly less than I has set aside. Modern is expensive, though it has been less so for me due to how long I have been playing, and in order to play it I have to plan out my purchases and get in on low prices on staples that I expect to rise. Giving in to impulse purchases because there is something that maybe I would play cuts down on my ability to get the cards I know I will use often. It is likely that there will be a few cards printed in BFZ that will be relevant in Modern. These kinds of cards are usually very archetype dependent, but every once in a while an Abrupt Decay kind of card is printed that will become a staple. I won't be buying the archetype dependent cards unless it is one I play, though trading for the occasional staple can happen. The odds that there will be 5 cards in BFZ that I would use as often as I would the enemy fetches, and that I value at the same level, are pretty slim.
Most people know that cracking packs is an expensive way to get cards you want unless you have a really good reselling infrastructure in place, but I enjoy it. These days I only do it when I know there are several cards I really want, like when I cracked packs for Khans. In Khans there were several cards I wanted above and beyond the 5 fetches, so for me it was a good treasure hunt. Any money I would have spent on a box or two, not to mention the singles I would have purchased from a shop that also cracks packs, will stay firmly put.
At one point perhaps, but I'm in my 40s, married, and have two kids. In order for me to spend on MTG I have to plan out the use of my entertainment budget, trade, or sell cards. I am building a staples pool, so I'm not going to sell or trade those.
Sure, it's a change. How is that bad?
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Fetches aren't even that good at color-fixing without shocklands and shocklands aren't in Standard. Having fetches would not make Standard mana-bases too good.
I didn't see the announcement until today. I am sure that there isn't a good reason for this. Wizards constantly makes bad judgments for things like this. I guess I'll be sticking to shard colors.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I recently bought one from SCG for $15 (Dissension) but when I looked at TCG to grab the other 3 I need to complete the playset there were only 2 available by 2 different sellers for $30 and $40 each! I don't get it. They are really hard to find. (Only talking about Dissension)
That's weird. I got mine for $8 (Innistrad) two weeks ago. Can't find any on Amazon any more. Wonder what caused the shortage...
EDIT: Well it looks like there are still Innistrad ones on TCG Player. The dissension ones are freaking expensive though good lord
I know that there was some hype around GR Tron and Bloom Titan for a short lived while, but that died quickly. (Ghost Quarter is notoriously good against those decks.)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)