Whether or not we should take the comments at face value or not is a different conversation, but they've already stated how MM did more to suppress Modern reprints than promote them and going forward they'll be able to reprint more Modern staples now that MM is decommissioned. Folks keep asking how will they be able to reprint Modern cards without a Modern Masters set every 2 years, which seems like a legitimate concern at first glance, but if we look back to the set lists as a whole, we can clearly see how inefficient they were.
Using MM15 as an example, 249 cards were in the set and as of today there are 48 cards currently worth more than $1. Out of those 48 cards, less than half are Modern staples or see fringe Modern play; the other half are holding value due to Legacy or EDH play. That's 24 Modern-relevant reprints from an entire set dedicated to Modern and 225 cards that are either draft chaff or irrelevant to competitive Modern. That's far from an efficient reprint strategy; WotC's comments regarding their ability to reprint more Modern staples across X amount of misc supplemental sets, products, etc seem much more reasonable considering they have two years worth of products in which they would have to scatter those 24 reprints across.
24 modern staples per set is very effective strategy for me, I dont need much more. Modern Masters is a limited set, Im perfectly fine with junk cards to make it a great drafting experience. Also set like this cant print too much, either it is too expsensive or it will drop printed card prices into oblivion both of which is not ok.
they've already stated how MM did more to suppress Modern reprints than promote them
I dont understand this. How can MM suppress Modern reprints? It usually sparks interest in the format
Why didnt wizards print Modern Masters 2019?
Thats so stupid of them imo
They could sell modern staples at $10 per piece of paper
Now players complain and counterfeiters get a free season of printing Jace, Opal, Liliana, fetches and so on
I think horizons will bring them more money than another masters set easily. If even 2 new cards are staples in modern that’ll be enough to sell tons of packs as it’s the only way to get them.
as for the original question, the simple and reductive answer is that the masters series wasnt sustainable. too many competing interests, and the product either had to adapt or move aside for something new.
What competing interests? 1) They can print a set and be sure it will be sold (make money) 2) Players happy with prices going down 3) Players get a new somewhat unique set to draft
Whats else is needed from a product if players are happy with it and company makes money?
That's 24 Modern-relevant reprints from an entire set dedicated to Modern and 225 cards that are either draft chaff or irrelevant to competitive Modern. That's far from an efficient reprint strategy; WotC's comments regarding their ability to reprint more Modern staples across X amount of misc supplemental sets, products, etc seem much more reasonable considering they have two years worth of products in which they would have to scatter those 24 reprints across.
Given the number of rares and mythics in a set, that's actually a fair number. There are only so many common staples.
MM and other product never were at odds except in Wizards' twisted rethoric. Printing staples in one product never did prevent printing differnet staples in another.
Wizards has vowed to reprint cards in normal products repeatedly, while failing to do so in meaningful numbers.
That number includes cards like Vines of Vastwood, Mutagenic Growth, Mirran Crusader, Bolt, Swans of Bryn Argoll, etc; I tried to be generous by including anything that might've been in a tournament list within the last 4 years, including Twin. And exactly; the fact that there are only so many common/uncommon staples is a great example for why dedicating an entire set to the purpose of reprinting 24 Modern-relevant cards is less efficient than jamming those cards into other products over the same 2 year time span and use that R&D on something else, Like Modern Horizons.
& 3. As mentioned, what WotC recently promised and whether or not we should accept it at face value is a whole conversation unto itself. WotC hasn't given me much reason to defend them in recent years, so I rarely do, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt on this one. Charging players more money for less cardboard is a profitable gig, and since I find it hard to believe WotC just doesn't like easy money, it makes sense to think there's some truth to their logic.
Good for you then. I think it's better to just hold on to that foil for now.
The price might further increase if a strong UW deck with many planeswalkers is discovered.
selling into the hype is typically a safe (and the correct) choice. if you remove wanting to own a card because you might play with it, it comes down to whether you are getting some acceptable positive return. so its not so much the question of 'can this card go even higher?', but rather 'can i come out ahead and use that gain for something more valuable?' such as a card you will actually play with, some extra cash for whatever you personally enjoy, or even speculating on another card with even higher potential.
as the saying goes 'save that 10% for the next guy'.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Dreadhorde Arcanist looks really strong in the right deck. The 8$ pre-order price is strong as well.
Is 8$ just a hype price.. wait for it to get lower or pre-order now?
I would wait... but thats just me... it is a rare afterall ...but if you play competitively then sure get it asap.. actually i think its best to wait... preorder hype is horrible :/
Just taking a moment to be thankful I found a bunch of cards from my play in 2003-2006. Mycosynth Lattice, Darksteel version, never played found yesterday!
selling into the hype is typically a safe (and the correct) choice. if you remove wanting to own a card because you might play with it, it comes down to whether you are getting some acceptable positive return. so its not so much the question of 'can this card go even higher?', but rather 'can i come out ahead and use that gain for something more valuable?' such as a card you will actually play with, some extra cash for whatever you personally enjoy, or even speculating on another card with even higher potential.
as the saying goes 'save that 10% for the next guy'.
Solid. I typically use eBay whenever selling cards, but considering buylisting a bunch of Modern stuff for cash with TCGplayer as prices for a lot of mid-range value things are inflated enough to where I don't mind losing out on the extra ~20-30% if it ends up saving me time.
Solid start to the day. Stopped by my mom's house this morning to set up a desktop in the den/what used to be my room as kid. I wanted to clear out some old junk while I was there and I was pleasantly surprised to find my old 'Beatdown Box'. I was under the impression that all of the cards I had as a kid were thrown away/donated back when I started undergrad, but I found a pretty nostalgic mix of mostly 2003-2010 cards as well as an affinity deck I built back in 2004 and the last one I built before taking a hiatus. Shows how much I knew back then as I found Sword of Light and ShadowSword of Fire and Ice & a Tarn just hanging out amongst a patch of bulk rares, while my prized card at the time, Mythic Proportions, was the star of the deck haha. Certainly sweet to find the swords and tarn, but rifling through misc Mirrodin / Darksteel bulk was a real treat; really brought me back.
Ah no, not in a rush. Just want to test a copy or two in my Mardu Pyro, since it looks like a really good card.
As money is low right now, would just wait for the price to settle down as well.
This set is going so strong that I'm expecting it to end up like dominaria on the box EV. Just wait for June after modern horizons. They are probably going to be drafting this at GP Vegas as well.
I've been picking up Rishadan Port, sanctum prelate, and other cards that look like they will go up a lot if introduced to modern. If they include containment priest I'd be surprised as it was just printed, unless they wanted to soften the card price due to it only being in the old commander decks.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thanks for the advice, but when WAR becomes available in our lgs... need to head over there to get some of the walkers I plan to test. The binders getting emptied of useful cards if I wait too long. The prices are at least more reasonable than ordering at SCG, as prices online are usually more inflated than local prices during release.
So are they using MCQ Promos to help out with Modern prices?? That seems like a great idea, honestly. I was sick of seeing Progenitus a year or so ago, but you give me an Arcbound Ravager for playing at bigger events? Yes please!
So are they using MCQ Promos to help out with Modern prices?? That seems like a great idea, honestly. I was sick of seeing Progenitus a year or so ago, but you give me an Arcbound Ravager for playing at bigger events? Yes please!
Arcbound isn't a GP Promo (that's a Lightning Bolt this time around). The only way to get one of these is to get yourself into an MCQ by grinding through lower tournaments first (unless I misunderstand whatever convoluted mess pro Magic qualifiers are doing now). Historically, the (previously-named-RPTQ) promos held very high values in of themselves, and did little to nothing to affect the prices of the regular copies.
The MCQs are indeed open to all comers. However, they are expensive. My local store which regularly held RPTQs and other large events is charging $50 preregistration, $65 on the day of. If the Mutavault promo from last year's GP can act as an indicator, the overall price will drop but the difference in price between this promo and other versions will be noticeable.
Blackcleave Cliffs and Verdant Catacombs are some of the main cards I'd like to pick up soon. I have 2 Blackcleave cliffs so far but no immediate need for them (I have Mardu pyro together but no intention of playing). I would like the Catacombs for 4c shadow every so often. Although I wouldn't mind playing Junk/Jund sometimes so both might be good
is now a good time to get either or can anyone see them dropping anytime soon?
Blackcleave Cliffs and Verdant Catacombs are some of the main cards I'd like to pick up soon. I have 2 Blackcleave cliffs so far but no immediate need for them (I have Mardu pyro together but no intention of playing). I would like the Catacombs for 4c shadow every so often. Although I wouldn't mind playing Junk/Jund sometimes so both might be good
is now a good time to get either or can anyone see them dropping anytime soon?
That's really the thing... nobody knows. Fetchlands hold incredibly steady prices, neither climbing nor falling, outside of event-based spikes and reprint falls. If you need em, get em, but they're also a reprint away from being back down around $40.
Blackcleave Cliffs and Verdant Catacombs are some of the main cards I'd like to pick up soon. I have 2 Blackcleave cliffs so far but no immediate need for them (I have Mardu pyro together but no intention of playing). I would like the Catacombs for 4c shadow every so often. Although I wouldn't mind playing Junk/Jund sometimes so both might be good
is now a good time to get either or can anyone see them dropping anytime soon?
Now that hollow one is t the cool kid on the block (izzet Phoenix is) the cliffs may go down some, but probably not much. The last and only printing was forever ago. I'm waiting for a reprint myself, and will be snatching up a playset at that time.
I'd get the verdants if you need them for a tournament but I think the price is probably stable baring nothing crazy in MH. I don't see them hitting tarn prices anytime soon, but even fetches like arid mesa have been on an incline since last printing. I would imagine we'd see backsliding in some of the weaker fetches from that cycle first before verdants. They are probably the second/third most competitive from the enemy fetch cycle with misty rainforest. I'm holding on finishing the enemy fetches playsets until they see another printing. BG has been posting some okayish results lately as well, so I think there is somewhat constant pressure (albeit light at times) to keep the price afloat.
I'm waiting on all mana right now, but we have no large supplemental products that I can see either of these showing up in. We know MH has nothing currently legal in modern and we know that these types of staples are typically too high on the secondary market to show up in commander products. (Inclusion causes availability issues without significantly impacting deck performance). I don't think we have anything slated for the rest of the year right now? A signature spell series has been talked about, but that won't have lands more than likely.
With no foreseeable reprint on the horizon I could see prices on manabases increasing short term somewhat, especially if MH heavily invigorates interest in the format. I don't think that the current prices are where they will end up in the evitable reprint scenario though. Short term you'll pay less, but you won't be able to move them for any more than breakeven more than likely anytime soon. tarn has already eclipsed almost every other non-promo printing in the format except maybe a couple? Surely it's nearing a ceiling.
While they will definitely not be in Modern Horizons, WOTC could also come out with some random product at any time and have them in. I can't tell you how much money I have wasted on "in case I need it" and "I might want to play this" purchases. I have binders and boxes full of expensive things I don't use, but don't want to sell.... in case I need it or in case I want to play it. It's a vicious and expensive cycle.
With that in mind, I would not buy the fetchlands unless you intend on using them. It's a lot of money to be sitting in a box waiting for you.
While they will definitely not be in Modern Horizons, WOTC could also come out with some random product at any time and have them in. I can't tell you how much money I have wasted on "in case I need it" and "I might want to play this" purchases. I have binders and boxes full of expensive things I don't use, but don't want to sell.... in case I need it or in case I want to play it. It's a vicious and expensive cycle.
With that in mind, I would not buy the fetchlands unless you intend on using them. It's a lot of money to be sitting in a box waiting for you.
I'm guilty of this myself lol. Always on the lookout to scoop up a bunch of sub $5usd tier 2/3 staples when a set drops so I have them in the wings. Many of which will never even see a set of sleeves. (I'm looking at you secluded glen).
Blackcleave Cliffs and Verdant Catacombs are some of the main cards I'd like to pick up soon. I have 2 Blackcleave cliffs so far but no immediate need for them (I have Mardu pyro together but no intention of playing). I would like the Catacombs for 4c shadow every so often. Although I wouldn't mind playing Junk/Jund sometimes so both might be good
is now a good time to get either or can anyone see them dropping anytime soon?
It's best not to think about the end of tomorrow, but in terms of two years. What do you think the possibility is in two years time they are reprinting Blackcleave Cliffs and Verdant Catacombs? Given how things worked last time they brought in shock lands they had the fast lands adjacent to the shocks. The only other possibilities that could be adjacent to shocks are Temples, pain lands, and filter lands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Fusion hit the nail on the head. It's never bad to own fetch lands, but seeing how they're the infrastructure for a significant portion of decks in the format, reprints are essentially a matter of when rather than if, so I'd advise against buying into them at/near their respective all-time highs unless you have immediate plans to use them. Although, there is a silver lining if you're ebay savvy and have the time to periodically check for new listings. I'm in the process of unloading a large amount of Modern staples and it's been interesting to see the disconnect between buyers & sellers, especially in regards to enemy fetches.
Whenever I list cards on eBay I'll undercut TCGplayer lows with the BIN price and generally accept any offer that's 10-15% less; I've done it the same way for years and my listings rarely make it longer than 5 days before they're sold out (assuming the card listed is a format staple holding value). So I've found it intriguing that out of everything I've listed over the last 2-ish weeks, sales of Tarns, Misty, and Catacombs have been the most stagnant. Over that time, I've been tracking the recently sold listings pretty close along with stores/aggregate pricing trends (MTGoldfish, MTGS, SCG, etc) which continue to show enemy fetches increasing in value and it became clear that those three "upper tier" enemy fetches are at/very close to the max price players are willing to pay. It's not an issue of decreased consumer demand as several Tarns, for example, get sold for $80-$85 a pop every day, rather, it's an issue pertaining to a lopsided distribution of supply where enough of these cards have found their way into the hands of the big players in the secondary market, so any significant de-stock -> price increase by someone like a SCG is enough to inflate the market of that particular card as a whole (or those 3 cards in this example).
Now the reason I find this so interesting is because the current uncertainty regarding Horizons/ when/where fetches will inevitably get reprinted makes it, so one can make persuasive arguments for both the sellers unwilling to budge due to a potential format-wide interest spike post-horizons as well as the buyers who refuse to pay $100 /Tarn, b/c they know a reprint announcement could pop up at any time. Went a little far down the finance path on that one, but the overarching point was to explain that you can certainly find Catacombs for a (somewhat more) reasonable price if you're willing to stake out ebay's newly listed auctions page and/or make reasonable offers on BIN posts.
I dont understand this. How can MM suppress Modern reprints? It usually sparks interest in the format
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Whats else is needed from a product if players are happy with it and company makes money?
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
If we open https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/modern/full/creatures we see Narcomoeba, Kitesail Freebooter, Arcbound Worker, Mantis Rider, Gurmag Angler, Crackling Drake
Cards you mentioned are important part of modern, there are 50 viable modern decks that can win a gp. If those cards arent in top200 played that doesnt mean people dont play and pay for them.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Nice, I've got one foil which I drafted once.
The price might further increase if a strong UW deck with many planeswalkers is discovered.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
as the saying goes 'save that 10% for the next guy'.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Is 8$ just a hype price.. wait for it to get lower or pre-order now?
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I would wait... but thats just me... it is a rare afterall ...but if you play competitively then sure get it asap.. actually i think its best to wait... preorder hype is horrible :/
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
As money is low right now, would just wait for the price to settle down as well.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Solid. I typically use eBay whenever selling cards, but considering buylisting a bunch of Modern stuff for cash with TCGplayer as prices for a lot of mid-range value things are inflated enough to where I don't mind losing out on the extra ~20-30% if it ends up saving me time.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
This set is going so strong that I'm expecting it to end up like dominaria on the box EV. Just wait for June after modern horizons. They are probably going to be drafting this at GP Vegas as well.
I've been picking up Rishadan Port, sanctum prelate, and other cards that look like they will go up a lot if introduced to modern. If they include containment priest I'd be surprised as it was just printed, unless they wanted to soften the card price due to it only being in the old commander decks.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thanks for the advice, but when WAR becomes available in our lgs... need to head over there to get some of the walkers I plan to test. The binders getting emptied of useful cards if I wait too long. The prices are at least more reasonable than ordering at SCG, as prices online are usually more inflated than local prices during release.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Arcbound isn't a GP Promo (that's a Lightning Bolt this time around). The only way to get one of these is to get yourself into an MCQ by grinding through lower tournaments first (unless I misunderstand whatever convoluted mess pro Magic qualifiers are doing now). Historically, the (previously-named-RPTQ) promos held very high values in of themselves, and did little to nothing to affect the prices of the regular copies.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/index/PRM-PTP#paper
Edit: Looks like MCQs this time around are open to anyone. Awesome! I'll be signing up for my local one and enjoy my Arcbound Ravager.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
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Staffis now a good time to get either or can anyone see them dropping anytime soon?
That's really the thing... nobody knows. Fetchlands hold incredibly steady prices, neither climbing nor falling, outside of event-based spikes and reprint falls. If you need em, get em, but they're also a reprint away from being back down around $40.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Now that hollow one is t the cool kid on the block (izzet Phoenix is) the cliffs may go down some, but probably not much. The last and only printing was forever ago. I'm waiting for a reprint myself, and will be snatching up a playset at that time.
I'd get the verdants if you need them for a tournament but I think the price is probably stable baring nothing crazy in MH. I don't see them hitting tarn prices anytime soon, but even fetches like arid mesa have been on an incline since last printing. I would imagine we'd see backsliding in some of the weaker fetches from that cycle first before verdants. They are probably the second/third most competitive from the enemy fetch cycle with misty rainforest. I'm holding on finishing the enemy fetches playsets until they see another printing. BG has been posting some okayish results lately as well, so I think there is somewhat constant pressure (albeit light at times) to keep the price afloat.
I'm waiting on all mana right now, but we have no large supplemental products that I can see either of these showing up in. We know MH has nothing currently legal in modern and we know that these types of staples are typically too high on the secondary market to show up in commander products. (Inclusion causes availability issues without significantly impacting deck performance). I don't think we have anything slated for the rest of the year right now? A signature spell series has been talked about, but that won't have lands more than likely.
With no foreseeable reprint on the horizon I could see prices on manabases increasing short term somewhat, especially if MH heavily invigorates interest in the format. I don't think that the current prices are where they will end up in the evitable reprint scenario though. Short term you'll pay less, but you won't be able to move them for any more than breakeven more than likely anytime soon. tarn has already eclipsed almost every other non-promo printing in the format except maybe a couple? Surely it's nearing a ceiling.
With that in mind, I would not buy the fetchlands unless you intend on using them. It's a lot of money to be sitting in a box waiting for you.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I'm guilty of this myself lol. Always on the lookout to scoop up a bunch of sub $5usd tier 2/3 staples when a set drops so I have them in the wings. Many of which will never even see a set of sleeves. (I'm looking at you secluded glen).
It's best not to think about the end of tomorrow, but in terms of two years. What do you think the possibility is in two years time they are reprinting Blackcleave Cliffs and Verdant Catacombs? Given how things worked last time they brought in shock lands they had the fast lands adjacent to the shocks. The only other possibilities that could be adjacent to shocks are Temples, pain lands, and filter lands.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Whenever I list cards on eBay I'll undercut TCGplayer lows with the BIN price and generally accept any offer that's 10-15% less; I've done it the same way for years and my listings rarely make it longer than 5 days before they're sold out (assuming the card listed is a format staple holding value). So I've found it intriguing that out of everything I've listed over the last 2-ish weeks, sales of Tarns, Misty, and Catacombs have been the most stagnant. Over that time, I've been tracking the recently sold listings pretty close along with stores/aggregate pricing trends (MTGoldfish, MTGS, SCG, etc) which continue to show enemy fetches increasing in value and it became clear that those three "upper tier" enemy fetches are at/very close to the max price players are willing to pay. It's not an issue of decreased consumer demand as several Tarns, for example, get sold for $80-$85 a pop every day, rather, it's an issue pertaining to a lopsided distribution of supply where enough of these cards have found their way into the hands of the big players in the secondary market, so any significant de-stock -> price increase by someone like a SCG is enough to inflate the market of that particular card as a whole (or those 3 cards in this example).
Now the reason I find this so interesting is because the current uncertainty regarding Horizons/ when/where fetches will inevitably get reprinted makes it, so one can make persuasive arguments for both the sellers unwilling to budge due to a potential format-wide interest spike post-horizons as well as the buyers who refuse to pay $100 /Tarn, b/c they know a reprint announcement could pop up at any time. Went a little far down the finance path on that one, but the overarching point was to explain that you can certainly find Catacombs for a (somewhat more) reasonable price if you're willing to stake out ebay's newly listed auctions page and/or make reasonable offers on BIN posts.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.