No reprints whatsoever; I'll be readying my collection for sale some time this year if WotC is planning on giving Modern the Legacy treatment....
Literally printing a full Modern set of cards. I don't see any legacy aimed sets on the horizon.
Scroll to around the 16 minute mark in the video at this link. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/announcing-modern-horizons-2019-02-28. The reprints are "new to Modern." The tag line on the screen says "New cards + reprints of cards not in Modern (minus basic lands)." So yes, a full set of Modern cards. Once it's released. Before then none of the cards in it are Modern legal.
No reprints whatsoever; I'll be readying my collection for sale some time this year if WotC is planning on giving Modern the Legacy treatment....
...I'll buy your fetches. Those suckers are going to explode since they already confirmed the reprints will be pre-8th edition.
This is what I was referring to. Surgical Extraction? Fetches? Manamorphose? No reprints of anything already IN Modern in this supplemental set with no limited print run and an expected price of ~$10 per pack. So those prices are just going to explode in the next 6 months, and at this point, this means very very few of the people I regularly see at my LGS will be getting in to the format. So less and less players to play against in paper as time goes on, while my cards balloon in value this year. So the obvious choice is to wait for my SINGLE Modern Staples binder to hit about 5 digits in value, sell it all off, and buy into MTGO for 200 bucks.
Disappointing, but whatever, WotC. I was pretty much prepared for either eventuality.
No reprints whatsoever; I'll be readying my collection for sale some time this year if WotC is planning on giving Modern the Legacy treatment....
...I'll buy your fetches. Those suckers are going to explode since they already confirmed the reprints will be pre-8th edition.
This is what I was referring to. Surgical Extraction? Fetches? Manamorphose? No reprints of anything already IN Modern in this supplemental set with no limited print run and an expected price of ~$10 per pack. So those prices are just going to explode in the next 6 months, and at this point, this means very very few of the people I regularly see at my LGS will be getting in to the format. So less and less players to play against in paper as time goes on, while my cards balloon in value this year. So the obvious choice is to wait for my SINGLE Modern Staples binder to hit about 5 digits in value, sell it all off, and buy into MTGO for 200 bucks.
Disappointing, but whatever, WotC. I was pretty much prepared for either eventuality.
why are you assuming $10/pack? everything released about the set so far indicates it will be cheaper. also no reprints in this set doesnt change anything. we already knew that masters sets ended and that they planned to distribute reprints through other products, which isnt the same as every product.
do i think they missed the opportunity to sprinkle in a few reprints? sure, but im also not viewing horizons through the lens of being a successor to modern masters - because its completely different.
also im not quite sure what you mean by giving modern the 'legacy treatment'. there isnt a reserved list, and its still in wizards interest to reprint high value cards because its a good way to rake in money. the fact they arent doing so with horizon speaks to their faith that the set can sell on its own merits.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
$10 was juse worst-case; my point was no limit, less than UMA Booster prices...sounds like the perfect place to reprint Fetches and Fastlands and Manamorphose to drive prices down so that more people can play a format WotC now have a VERY heavy investment in. Instead, I just have to keep hoping, I guess? Where else could they possible print Fetches and Fastlands that seems reasonable or will actually make a difference in the prices of said cards? I just don't see it; however, like I said, I'm giving them until later this year to communicate SOMETHING about the issue, or maybe they will do something and I'll be pleasantly surprised!
Cards hold price history; players hold WotC behavior history. I think my history with WotC is just really hurting my optimism in regards to Modern prices, so please excuse my bias, as that's all it is, honestly. Your arguments are definitely good ones, tronix; thanks!
No reprints whatsoever; I'll be readying my collection for sale some time this year if WotC is planning on giving Modern the Legacy treatment....
Ha, no if anything the modern horizons set is a good thing. The issue modern had is that they tried to do this cash grab thing with nothing but masters sets serving as the reprint set. While this worked early on, the set fell out of favor ages ago after MM2. The combination of the price and the print run levels made modern staples hold their value or even go up as they tried to force people into playing standard. Commander hit a new low as well with Commander 2018, but those will rebound in price.
The only reason I would sell out of modern right now is because of the reprint promise. If they pull off this plan correctly, I'm envisioning the price on a lot of high cost cards to drop a lot. The reason is the price point on new boxes: If they release a set with liliana of the Veil and two other high cost mythics along with a bunch of legacy cards that only got one printing, along with the set being priced around 90-140 dollars a box on amazon, it will be opened like mad compared to a masters set. That means the price of cards like Noble Hierarch will fall long term as they get reprinted and cracked open.
The fact is they have to get super aggressive on reprinting staples in paper because arena is going to push a lot of new players into paper magic. Once they go there, Modern is currently the defacto eternal format for people now. Legacy is insane due to costs of a few outlier cards because of the reserved list. Modern does not have the same issue. Rather, modern has the problem of too many cards and a company that wanted to milk the economy dry.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
$40/ea on TCGPlayer the lowest we can expect for Noble Hierarch?
I think so, at least in the short run and until it is reprinted again. It already bottomed out to about $30 during the UMA release, but started climbing back up 2 weeks after. I wouldn't sleep on these cards if I were you.
There's a whole bunch that I want to buy play sets of and am just waiting to get money from other cards to fund this (I'm looking at you extra sets of Goryo's Vengeance, Celestial Colonnade, Through the Breach, as well as some from IMA.)
Thank you. I'm sorry I missed the $30 bottom, but just pulled the trigger at $40/each for 4. Especially since no currently-Modern legal cards will be in Modern Horizons, I see these having nowhere to go but up for the foreseeable future.
Allowing older cards to continually balloon in price with only the barest smattering of reprints that take 5-10 years to come around again? This drives more casual players out of a format and shrinks the chances of a local meta developing by a large margin, in my experience. I wanted to see this effect avoided in Modern at all costs, as I've been fairly successful at keeping a small local meta of Modern players engaged; however, I was hoping this year would be a good year for Modern prices (after the last few being abysmal) and that more and more players would be getting into Modern and developing our local meta.
Now it seems more feasible to just sell out of physical cards when they spike and simply buy into MTGO if I feel like playing Modern more regularly.
No reprints whatsoever; I'll be readying my collection for sale some time this year if WotC is planning on giving Modern the Legacy treatment....
Ha, no if anything the modern horizons set is a good thing. The issue modern had is that they tried to do this cash grab thing with nothing but masters sets serving as the reprint set. While this worked early on, the set fell out of favor ages ago after MM2. The combination of the price and the print run levels made modern staples hold their value or even go up as they tried to force people into playing standard. Commander hit a new low as well with Commander 2018, but those will rebound in price.
It "fell out of favor" because WotC started playing a financial market game instead of developing a successful, long-term business and player base. When the Mythics in a Limited Print Run $250 set are worth $1, it's not "the market's" fault that your product failed; you made a terrible product, and it deserved to fail.
Masters sets were a reprint set done terribly. Horizons isn't a reprint set. So the issue will still exist until they deal with it.
The only reason I would sell out of modern right now is because of the reprint promise. If they pull off this plan correctly, I'm envisioning the price on a lot of high cost cards to drop a lot. The reason is the price point on new boxes: If they release a set with liliana of the Veil and two other high cost mythics along with a bunch of legacy cards that only got one printing, along with the set being priced around 90-140 dollars a box on amazon, it will be opened like mad compared to a masters set. That means the price of cards like Noble Hierarch will fall long term as they get reprinted and cracked open.
What promise is this, and where are they reprinting these cards that will see enough of a print run and a price point that they actually affect the prices of Modern staples? An unlimited print run, possibly $6-per booster set exactly like Modern Horizons seems like it would have been the perfect place for such reprints, but that isn't happening, and they're apparently done with large-scale reprints, soooo....what is this set that's going to affect reprints? The Innovation set for the year is announced; what's left?
The fact is they have to get super aggressive on reprinting staples in paper because arena is going to push a lot of new players into paper magic. Once they go there, Modern is currently the defacto eternal format for people now. Legacy is insane due to costs of a few outlier cards because of the reserved list. Modern does not have the same issue. Rather, modern has the problem of too many cards and a company that wanted to milk the economy dry.
We've been saying this for half a decade. Consider me jaded, but I'm fairly pessimistic about the entire situation right now.
Masters sets were a reprint set done terribly. Horizons isn't a reprint set. So the issue will still exist until they deal with it.
the bold pretty much sums it up. card availability has consistently been an issue in modern and the masters line wasnt sustainable.
i get being pessimistic about the situation because as you say a set like horizons fit the bill for SOME number of reprints; even if it was small. the silver lining and the reason im reserving judgement is because we know that wizards knows, and over last year and presumably over this year they will be employing different strategies. they have been open about admitting that they know the masters sets were a major source of reprints, and have expressed plans to create outlets for that pressure in other products.
horizons clearly isnt one of those plans, and the explicit 'no legal reprints' says to me they dont want people even mistaking that it could be. so...what else are they going to do and how? that question is still open for the time being.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
For anyone concerned that Horizons will be MM 2.0, sans current modern-legal reprints & with the same price tag, have no fear. It appears that the set will be distributed in the same fashion as previous Summer sets (e.g. BattleBond, Conspiracy, etc) which is to say the set will be print-to-demand and retail for the same price as those aforementioned sets. I believe I heard Rudy from Alpha Investments state this in a recent video and my LGS confirmed it this morning via their FB page. Very good news from the standpoint of being able to acquire these new/"new-old" Modern pieces without needing a home equity loan. Somewhat concerning news for anyone holding onto any big money cards which will likely see their value nosedive being included in a print-to-demand set. Then again, that could also be viewed as good news considering those sort of reprints would likely be Legacy staples, thus helping to make entry into certain Legacy archetypes a little less cost prohibitive. Inquisition of Kozilek immediately comes to mind as an example; although it seems to see less play now than it did back then, IoK was like $18 a pop before it got reprinted in Conspiracy: Take the Crown.
In regards to the concerns surrounding the price to play now that Masters sets are gone/on hiatus, WotC had to have expected this sort of reaction and I'll go on the record saying we'll get some kind of supplemental product either this year or early 2020 that includes enemy fetches/Modern-relevant reprints. Multiple talking heads at WotC have publicly stated that the d/c of Masters sets doesn't mean the d/c of Modern reprints. I don't recall which of those talking heads mentioned it, but they had an excellent point in saying that the majority of cards reprinted in MM are there for draft purposes and don't actually see competitive play. Essentially saying that the net amount of "actual" reprints from past Modern sets is quite small and I think that's something a lot of folks don't really consider; I was in that boat myself before reflecting back and sorting through those set lists. Anyway, the point he was getting at was that it's actually not that difficult for WotC to deliver the same number of relevant reprints scattered among various supplemental product, one-off sets, etc.
If I had to make an educated guess, I'd put my money on this year's batch of Commander Pre-Cons including something like two duals a piece. It couldn't be just one each as whichever deck got Tarn would be scooped up en-mass. A second guess would be something akin to the Jace's Spellbook crap except for fetches/misc other lands. However, I think the former would be much more likely to occur than the latter. Aside from being a sensical vessel for fetches, this year's Commander decks should end up being home runs to compensate for the mixed feelings they left players with in the last iteration.
If I had to make an educated guess, I'd put my money on this year's batch of Commander Pre-Cons including something like two duals a piece. It couldn't be just one each as whichever deck got Tarn would be scooped up en-mass. A second guess would be something akin to the Jace's Spellbook crap except for fetches/misc other lands. However, I think the former would be much more likely to occur than the latter. Aside from being a sensical vessel for fetches, this year's Commander decks should end up being home runs to compensate for the mixed feelings they left players with in the last iteration.
I agreed with everything you wrote except this. It's highly unlikely that Wizards will feel the need to goose sales of a $40 product with $90 reprints. The previous year's sets' failings had nothing to do with a lack of fetchlands, and Wizards is certainly not obligated to include them as some sort of apology or compensation. They can release a product with greater sales with good card design, cohesive decklists, and a slew of medium-value reprints. High-end reprints such as the Zendikar fetches end up as prizes in lottery booster products more often than not nowadays, and the end of Masters products certainly doesn't mark the end of that. Even if they do use a preconstructed deck to distribute expensive modern reprints, it won't be commander, lest they end up with the buyouts that plagued the first wave of commander precons.
UMA had like 20 or 30 expensive Modern cards reprinted, and they could have reprinted Manamorphose and a few other Uncommons to really hit the sweet spot if they were actually aiming to ever address this issue, rather than just string the format along on life support in terms of affordability. I just can't imagine any other sets that can hit 20+ needed reprints for the power level that Modern cards have, hence my pessimism. Anything that would actually address the many, many needed reprints of Modern would just be a Scooby-Doo meme of, "Let's see who this set REALLY is...it's just more Modern Masters after they said we aren't doing Modern Masters anymore!!" And honestly, if they want to pull that move and make the set a $4 Booster set, I wouldn't even give a crap. Hell, I'd hold a parade for them! Sure, it'll have taken them 5 years to do exactly what everyone said to do after about Year 2, but I'd love to see it actually happen.
Probably won't though. WotC has never shown they're willing to address the issue in a timely and efficient manner, and I don't expect them to start now.
Probably won't though. WotC has never shown they're willing to address the issue in a timely and efficient manner, and I don't expect them to start now.
How is card availability an issue in Modern? The format regularly caps events. It's Magic's biggest format by almost any metric. There is no way Wizards sees having some expensive cards as a "problem;" if anything, it lets them print sets like Masters and charge more than a normal booster knowing that people will buy it up, so it's all upside. In short:
- High prices directly correlate with demand for the product
- High prices on cards that can be and are reprinted further indicate that Modern is thriving
- Sustained high prices indicate that people are willing to pay that amount for the cards
- People paying that amount for the cards supports Wizards and incentivizes them to directly support Modern, i.e. with Masters or Horizons
- Prices will fall if people stop buying cards at those prices
- When that happens, Wizards gives up on Modern because it's no longer making them money
As far as I can tell, high prices = good for the format. And it's not like it's impossible to find rare cards you need; with the internet, any card can be bought at any time. If someone wants to explain to me how prices and card availability are an "issue," I'm all ears. It seems to me like a problem that only affects a vocal minority of players that frankly don't matter at all when it comes to format enjoyment by the middle class (the game's target audience) or, more importantly, to Wizards' bottom line. Yet it seems to dominate this thread year after year, in spite of all the progress and popularity gains Modern has made and continues to make.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
- High prices on cards that can be and are reprinted further indicate that Modern is thriving
Is Legacy thriving?? Because quite a few cards in Legacy "can be and are reprinted", yet I don't believe Legacy is thriving at the moment. They also have extremely high prices, so I disagree that high prices = a thriving format. Tournament turn-out definitely shows that Modern is doing well, but Arena blows it out of the water by a large margin, I imagine.
- People paying that amount for the cards supports Wizards and incentivizes them to directly support Modern, i.e. with Masters or Horizons
No, people paying that amount supports Star City Games, who are also (not coincidentally) the reason Modern is thriving so hard. Singles don't support WotC. WotC barely has any tournaments that regularly force Modern, so SCG and local communities are most of what keep paper Modern thriving. As someone west of Missouri, I can basically just rely on my local community and a few yearly events to actually play Modern at all. So to grow the local community in a small town, in a midwestern state, prices can't be low-level Legacy, or the format is almost non-existent.
Yes, I understand that eastern US and larger cities in states where "middle class" is the majority and pay rates are generally much higher makes it a bit easier to justify $90 for a Scalding Tarn, but when $7.25 is Minimum Wage and the rent is about $700 a month, you cut out a very large portion of players who don't work in middle-class industries.
Garbage workers make roughly what teachers do. I don't agree that $90 Scalding Tarns is good for the format, though. I think the format has seen the biggest boosts when one of two things happen: reprints of staples, or a significant number of cards coming from a relatively short time in Standard.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
- High prices on cards that can be and are reprinted further indicate that Modern is thriving
Is Legacy thriving?? Because quite a few cards in Legacy "can be and are reprinted", yet I don't believe Legacy is thriving at the moment. They also have extremely high prices, so I disagree that high prices = a thriving format. Tournament turn-out definitely shows that Modern is doing well, but Arena blows it out of the water by a large margin, I imagine.
For a format that is not being supported by Wizards at all, I would say that yes, Legacy is definitely thriving. The most expensive cards in Legacy are either Modern staples (covered by my claim), on the reserved list (out of contention), or very unlikely to be reprinted precisely because they are too strong for Modern (functionally out of contention).
- People paying that amount for the cards supports Wizards and incentivizes them to directly support Modern, i.e. with Masters or Horizons
No, people paying that amount supports Star City Games, who are also (not coincidentally) the reason Modern is thriving so hard. Singles don't support WotC. WotC barely has any tournaments that regularly force Modern, so SCG and local communities are most of what keep paper Modern thriving. As someone west of Missouri, I can basically just rely on my local community and a few yearly events to actually play Modern at all. So to grow the local community in a small town, in a midwestern state, prices can't be low-level Legacy, or the format is almost non-existent.
Nah. SCG is a large distributor, sure, but that also makes them a large consumer. Without a demand for singles, they don't buy the amount of product from Wizards that they currently do. This argument betrays a misunderstanding of how the Magic economy works. Besides, why care about growing the playerbase in a town with a small population at the cost of profits guaranteed by the larger playerbases in densely populated areas?
Yes, I understand that eastern US and larger cities in states where "middle class" is the majority and pay rates are generally much higher makes it a bit easier to justify $90 for a Scalding Tarn, but when $7.25 is Minimum Wage and the rent is about $700 a month, you cut out a very large portion of players who don't work in middle-class industries.
Do garbage men not "deserve" to play Magic now?
Well, answer me this: do garbage men (or teachers) "deserve" to own sports cars?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
it isnt a matter of whether or not staples are expensive, but rather just how expensive. the economics isnt just a function of demand since supply is a factor as well. this is demonstrably true when looking at vintage, where just because its cards are more expensive doesnt mean they are in higher demand than modern staples or that the format is as successful.
that is how id categorize card availability as an issue. one that wizards has openly admitted is a thing; just look back at why they created modern masters in the first place.
it doesnt have to be all or nothing. a lot of hyperbole gets thrown around about printing everything into the dirt being the only way the format can grow, but for the most part people just want more small to medium sized reprints (for instance not doubling or more the amount in circulation) to make prices less expensive.
i get that wizards as a vested interest in maintaining a certain amount of 'reprint equity' for value cards in order to sell future products; however its also a balance at some point the price of cards keeps some nonzero amount of players away from even engaging in the game. id consider something like scalding tarns and mox opals breaking 100/per as that balance swaying too far in one direction, and thus becomes an 'issue' that needs to be addressed.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I live in a small market, my local shop wont even buy some of the singles I still have, as they know they are too expensive for them to shift in any reasonable amount of time.
Tarn's are some of those cards. I mean Card Kingdom has tarn's at $99! lol I got them with their reprinting, at under $50 per which is STILL hilarious. Yeah, MTGStocks shows the growth, sick. I should have bought more.
yeah im pretty fortunate in my local market. one shop is a decently sized online vendor, and the other has done an amazing job diversifying away from mtg (and TCGs in general) which takes pressure of having mtg sales doing the heavy lifting.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
]Well, answer me this: do garbage men (or teachers) "deserve" to own sports cars?
I think that people who provide essential services to the community should be able to expect a certain level of discretionary income, yes. And while my teacher's salary is never going to buy me a new Ferrari (Vintage deck), I ought to be able to buy a used Porsche (Modern deck) with good money habits.
Basically, I think once Modern decks break out of the $500-$1000 range, they ought to get reeled back in a little bit. It's not too bad right now, by this metric: yeah, Tarns and Opals are expensive, but the days of the $2000 Jund or Jeskai decks are gone for good, I think. But it's taken some serious work to get there. All I want is a reprint schedule that mirrors the Khans - MM2017 era, where deck prices generally went down quite a bit. In there, you've got the fetches in Khans and MM17 and plenty of the big deal reprints like Karn, Goyf, and Hierarch in the various Masters sets. That window of reprints allowed me to build a 400 card cube with everything but power and duals, a few EDH decks, and two Modern decks. It took some doing because I'm a teacher and a young father, but once people who make less than $30-40k out of formats they want to play, I think you've got a problem.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
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(OTOH, I doubt we will see in the announcement which actual reprints will be included.)
Literally printing a full Modern set of cards. I don't see any legacy aimed sets on the horizon.
Spirits
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
...I'll buy your fetches. Those suckers are going to explode since they already confirmed the reprints will be pre-8th edition.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
This is what I was referring to. Surgical Extraction? Fetches? Manamorphose? No reprints of anything already IN Modern in this supplemental set with no limited print run and an expected price of ~$10 per pack. So those prices are just going to explode in the next 6 months, and at this point, this means very very few of the people I regularly see at my LGS will be getting in to the format. So less and less players to play against in paper as time goes on, while my cards balloon in value this year. So the obvious choice is to wait for my SINGLE Modern Staples binder to hit about 5 digits in value, sell it all off, and buy into MTGO for 200 bucks.
Disappointing, but whatever, WotC. I was pretty much prepared for either eventuality.
why are you assuming $10/pack? everything released about the set so far indicates it will be cheaper. also no reprints in this set doesnt change anything. we already knew that masters sets ended and that they planned to distribute reprints through other products, which isnt the same as every product.
do i think they missed the opportunity to sprinkle in a few reprints? sure, but im also not viewing horizons through the lens of being a successor to modern masters - because its completely different.
also im not quite sure what you mean by giving modern the 'legacy treatment'. there isnt a reserved list, and its still in wizards interest to reprint high value cards because its a good way to rake in money. the fact they arent doing so with horizon speaks to their faith that the set can sell on its own merits.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Cards hold price history; players hold WotC behavior history. I think my history with WotC is just really hurting my optimism in regards to Modern prices, so please excuse my bias, as that's all it is, honestly. Your arguments are definitely good ones, tronix; thanks!
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Ha, no if anything the modern horizons set is a good thing. The issue modern had is that they tried to do this cash grab thing with nothing but masters sets serving as the reprint set. While this worked early on, the set fell out of favor ages ago after MM2. The combination of the price and the print run levels made modern staples hold their value or even go up as they tried to force people into playing standard. Commander hit a new low as well with Commander 2018, but those will rebound in price.
The only reason I would sell out of modern right now is because of the reprint promise. If they pull off this plan correctly, I'm envisioning the price on a lot of high cost cards to drop a lot. The reason is the price point on new boxes: If they release a set with liliana of the Veil and two other high cost mythics along with a bunch of legacy cards that only got one printing, along with the set being priced around 90-140 dollars a box on amazon, it will be opened like mad compared to a masters set. That means the price of cards like Noble Hierarch will fall long term as they get reprinted and cracked open.
The fact is they have to get super aggressive on reprinting staples in paper because arena is going to push a lot of new players into paper magic. Once they go there, Modern is currently the defacto eternal format for people now. Legacy is insane due to costs of a few outlier cards because of the reserved list. Modern does not have the same issue. Rather, modern has the problem of too many cards and a company that wanted to milk the economy dry.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Allowing older cards to continually balloon in price with only the barest smattering of reprints that take 5-10 years to come around again? This drives more casual players out of a format and shrinks the chances of a local meta developing by a large margin, in my experience. I wanted to see this effect avoided in Modern at all costs, as I've been fairly successful at keeping a small local meta of Modern players engaged; however, I was hoping this year would be a good year for Modern prices (after the last few being abysmal) and that more and more players would be getting into Modern and developing our local meta.
Now it seems more feasible to just sell out of physical cards when they spike and simply buy into MTGO if I feel like playing Modern more regularly.
It "fell out of favor" because WotC started playing a financial market game instead of developing a successful, long-term business and player base. When the Mythics in a Limited Print Run $250 set are worth $1, it's not "the market's" fault that your product failed; you made a terrible product, and it deserved to fail.
Masters sets were a reprint set done terribly. Horizons isn't a reprint set. So the issue will still exist until they deal with it.
What promise is this, and where are they reprinting these cards that will see enough of a print run and a price point that they actually affect the prices of Modern staples? An unlimited print run, possibly $6-per booster set exactly like Modern Horizons seems like it would have been the perfect place for such reprints, but that isn't happening, and they're apparently done with large-scale reprints, soooo....what is this set that's going to affect reprints? The Innovation set for the year is announced; what's left?
We've been saying this for half a decade. Consider me jaded, but I'm fairly pessimistic about the entire situation right now.
the bold pretty much sums it up. card availability has consistently been an issue in modern and the masters line wasnt sustainable.
i get being pessimistic about the situation because as you say a set like horizons fit the bill for SOME number of reprints; even if it was small. the silver lining and the reason im reserving judgement is because we know that wizards knows, and over last year and presumably over this year they will be employing different strategies. they have been open about admitting that they know the masters sets were a major source of reprints, and have expressed plans to create outlets for that pressure in other products.
horizons clearly isnt one of those plans, and the explicit 'no legal reprints' says to me they dont want people even mistaking that it could be. so...what else are they going to do and how? that question is still open for the time being.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)In regards to the concerns surrounding the price to play now that Masters sets are gone/on hiatus, WotC had to have expected this sort of reaction and I'll go on the record saying we'll get some kind of supplemental product either this year or early 2020 that includes enemy fetches/Modern-relevant reprints. Multiple talking heads at WotC have publicly stated that the d/c of Masters sets doesn't mean the d/c of Modern reprints. I don't recall which of those talking heads mentioned it, but they had an excellent point in saying that the majority of cards reprinted in MM are there for draft purposes and don't actually see competitive play. Essentially saying that the net amount of "actual" reprints from past Modern sets is quite small and I think that's something a lot of folks don't really consider; I was in that boat myself before reflecting back and sorting through those set lists. Anyway, the point he was getting at was that it's actually not that difficult for WotC to deliver the same number of relevant reprints scattered among various supplemental product, one-off sets, etc.
If I had to make an educated guess, I'd put my money on this year's batch of Commander Pre-Cons including something like two duals a piece. It couldn't be just one each as whichever deck got Tarn would be scooped up en-mass. A second guess would be something akin to the Jace's Spellbook crap except for fetches/misc other lands. However, I think the former would be much more likely to occur than the latter. Aside from being a sensical vessel for fetches, this year's Commander decks should end up being home runs to compensate for the mixed feelings they left players with in the last iteration.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I agreed with everything you wrote except this. It's highly unlikely that Wizards will feel the need to goose sales of a $40 product with $90 reprints. The previous year's sets' failings had nothing to do with a lack of fetchlands, and Wizards is certainly not obligated to include them as some sort of apology or compensation. They can release a product with greater sales with good card design, cohesive decklists, and a slew of medium-value reprints. High-end reprints such as the Zendikar fetches end up as prizes in lottery booster products more often than not nowadays, and the end of Masters products certainly doesn't mark the end of that. Even if they do use a preconstructed deck to distribute expensive modern reprints, it won't be commander, lest they end up with the buyouts that plagued the first wave of commander precons.
Probably won't though. WotC has never shown they're willing to address the issue in a timely and efficient manner, and I don't expect them to start now.
- High prices directly correlate with demand for the product
- High prices on cards that can be and are reprinted further indicate that Modern is thriving
- Sustained high prices indicate that people are willing to pay that amount for the cards
- People paying that amount for the cards supports Wizards and incentivizes them to directly support Modern, i.e. with Masters or Horizons
- Prices will fall if people stop buying cards at those prices
- When that happens, Wizards gives up on Modern because it's no longer making them money
As far as I can tell, high prices = good for the format. And it's not like it's impossible to find rare cards you need; with the internet, any card can be bought at any time. If someone wants to explain to me how prices and card availability are an "issue," I'm all ears. It seems to me like a problem that only affects a vocal minority of players that frankly don't matter at all when it comes to format enjoyment by the middle class (the game's target audience) or, more importantly, to Wizards' bottom line. Yet it seems to dominate this thread year after year, in spite of all the progress and popularity gains Modern has made and continues to make.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Is Legacy thriving?? Because quite a few cards in Legacy "can be and are reprinted", yet I don't believe Legacy is thriving at the moment. They also have extremely high prices, so I disagree that high prices = a thriving format. Tournament turn-out definitely shows that Modern is doing well, but Arena blows it out of the water by a large margin, I imagine.
- People paying that amount for the cards supports Wizards and incentivizes them to directly support Modern, i.e. with Masters or Horizons
No, people paying that amount supports Star City Games, who are also (not coincidentally) the reason Modern is thriving so hard. Singles don't support WotC. WotC barely has any tournaments that regularly force Modern, so SCG and local communities are most of what keep paper Modern thriving. As someone west of Missouri, I can basically just rely on my local community and a few yearly events to actually play Modern at all. So to grow the local community in a small town, in a midwestern state, prices can't be low-level Legacy, or the format is almost non-existent.
Yes, I understand that eastern US and larger cities in states where "middle class" is the majority and pay rates are generally much higher makes it a bit easier to justify $90 for a Scalding Tarn, but when $7.25 is Minimum Wage and the rent is about $700 a month, you cut out a very large portion of players who don't work in middle-class industries.
Do garbage men not "deserve" to play Magic now?
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
that is how id categorize card availability as an issue. one that wizards has openly admitted is a thing; just look back at why they created modern masters in the first place.
it doesnt have to be all or nothing. a lot of hyperbole gets thrown around about printing everything into the dirt being the only way the format can grow, but for the most part people just want more small to medium sized reprints (for instance not doubling or more the amount in circulation) to make prices less expensive.
i get that wizards as a vested interest in maintaining a certain amount of 'reprint equity' for value cards in order to sell future products; however its also a balance at some point the price of cards keeps some nonzero amount of players away from even engaging in the game. id consider something like scalding tarns and mox opals breaking 100/per as that balance swaying too far in one direction, and thus becomes an 'issue' that needs to be addressed.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Tarn's are some of those cards. I mean Card Kingdom has tarn's at $99! lol I got them with their reprinting, at under $50 per which is STILL hilarious. Yeah, MTGStocks shows the growth, sick. I should have bought more.
Spirits
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I think that people who provide essential services to the community should be able to expect a certain level of discretionary income, yes. And while my teacher's salary is never going to buy me a new Ferrari (Vintage deck), I ought to be able to buy a used Porsche (Modern deck) with good money habits.
Basically, I think once Modern decks break out of the $500-$1000 range, they ought to get reeled back in a little bit. It's not too bad right now, by this metric: yeah, Tarns and Opals are expensive, but the days of the $2000 Jund or Jeskai decks are gone for good, I think. But it's taken some serious work to get there. All I want is a reprint schedule that mirrors the Khans - MM2017 era, where deck prices generally went down quite a bit. In there, you've got the fetches in Khans and MM17 and plenty of the big deal reprints like Karn, Goyf, and Hierarch in the various Masters sets. That window of reprints allowed me to build a 400 card cube with everything but power and duals, a few EDH decks, and two Modern decks. It took some doing because I'm a teacher and a young father, but once people who make less than $30-40k out of formats they want to play, I think you've got a problem.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered