They’ve already done some of that in Conspiracy though, and I’ll bet they’ll do it again in Battlebond. Conspiracy sets were normal priced boosters without print-run-shorting, and draft focused sets, that included a great many reprints, even including modern staples like Inquisution of Kozilek and Serum Visions as well as eternal darlings like Berserk and Brainstorm. And yet magic survived.
If you can't understand the difference between Chronicles and Conspiracy in terms of the cards they reprinted and the sheer levels to which it was tanked, I cannot help you.
I was around then. Chronicles hardly reprinted anything of tournament relevance, with a select few exceptions (City of Brass, Blood Moon, Ernham Djinn, some sparing use of Concordant Crossroads). Mainly what Chronicles reprinted and that collectors got up in arms about were Timmy-wow-factor garbage - the Elder Dragon Legends and other legends like Dakkon and Solkanar and Nebuchadnezzar that were just like the Imperial Recruiter of today - valuable only because of low circulation rather than actual demand or utility. Chronicles very much didn't flood the market with tournament-level staples. All those Arabian/Antiquities/Legends lands (the good ones!), Maze of Ith, Mana Drain, Juzam Djinn, were all left out of the reprints.
Pretty much this. It was great for people at the time who just wanted the cards to play and bad for collectors who were treating things more like vintage baseball cards. They can't actually "chronicles" modern cards that are heavily played in modern as much as suppress the prices since the majority of 50+ usd modern cards are that way from the massive demand and lower supply. Even reprinting the enemy fetch lands at rare only took them down temporarily.
Also, doing just one good set every two to three years might help with staving off the potential booster box crash that is likely coming. Not sure people here realize this, but there's a lot of booster boxes from RTR and onwards languishing in stores and at distributors right now. It's still possible to get RTR for 90 dollars a box and the theros block is like 75-80 usd a box.
Also, I can't believe someone actually said "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Feldon's Cane was a 300 dollar card simply because of how few copies there were and thanks to Chronicles players could actually get their hands on them. Heck, if people want to say chronicles was a mistake they might as well say Ice Age was one too because it dropped the price on Icy Manipulator.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They’ve already done some of that in Conspiracy though, and I’ll bet they’ll do it again in Battlebond. Conspiracy sets were normal priced boosters without print-run-shorting, and draft focused sets, that included a great many reprints, even including modern staples like Inquisution of Kozilek and Serum Visions as well as eternal darlings like Berserk and Brainstorm. And yet magic survived.
If you can't understand the difference between Chronicles and Conspiracy in terms of the cards they reprinted and the sheer levels to which it was tanked, I cannot help you.
I was around then. Chronicles hardly reprinted anything of tournament relevance, with a select few exceptions (City of Brass, Blood Moon, Ernham Djinn, some sparing use of Concordant Crossroads). Mainly what Chronicles reprinted and that collectors got up in arms about were Timmy-wow-factor garbage - the Elder Dragon Legends and other legends like Dakkon and Solkanar and Nebuchadnezzar that were just like the Imperial Recruiter of today - valuable only because of low circulation rather than actual demand or utility. Chronicles very much didn't flood the market with tournament-level staples. All those Arabian/Antiquities/Legends lands (the good ones!), Maze of Ith, Mana Drain, Juzam Djinn, were all left out of the reprints.
Also, doing just one good set every two to three years might help with staving off the potential booster box crash that is likely coming. Not sure people here realize this, but there's a lot of booster boxes from RTR and onwards languishing in stores and at distributors right now. It's still possible to get RTR for 90 dollars a box and the theros block is like 75-80 usd a box.
Yes, everyone does realize that. One of the many reasons why a Chronicles-esque set would be a disaster; the game was still in its infancy when they printed Chronicles and the print runs for those sets that preceded it pale in comparison to today's print runs.
OK, deal. Reprint all the chaff, not your $60 cards, and call it good...I mean if its just about getting more Feldon's Cane's out there, no harm done.
The greatest crime in modern price discussions: wanting chase mythics for modern to be 25-50 usd instead of 50-100+ usd.
Well, after running that little experiment to see how people would read "we need another chronicles" I see what is going on now. People here do not read between the lines. I had written a few posts back as well as a post before that my interest was to see more targeted products that hit specific cards and drop the high end down of modern. Chronicles didn't do that, it hit the cards that were casual favorites that were like vintage baseball cards. They absolutely can and should fix the prices on the higher demand modern cards if they intend the format to stay relevant because the masters sets barely work.
As to why they haven't, my only guess is that they are thinking there's more copies out there than there really is or they want to just ride the format like a money train. At the end of the day WoTC wouldn't even have a wide spread counterfits issue if the price vs legality equation was actually in balance.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Is anyone else having problems with tcgplayer? certain sections of the shop don't load right
They run maintenance in the early morning hours so you probably will have to wait a bit to do any purchasing there.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I was around then. Chronicles hardly reprinted anything of tournament relevance, with a select few exceptions (City of Brass, Blood Moon, Ernham Djinn, some sparing use of Concordant Crossroads). Mainly what Chronicles reprinted and that collectors got up in arms about were Timmy-wow-factor garbage - the Elder Dragon Legends and other legends like Dakkon and Solkanar and Nebuchadnezzar that were just like the Imperial Recruiter of today - valuable only because of low circulation rather than actual demand or utility. Chronicles very much didn't flood the market with tournament-level staples. All those Arabian/Antiquities/Legends lands (the good ones!), Maze of Ith, Mana Drain, Juzam Djinn, were all left out of the reprints.
you are correct in that there weren't a lot of tournament staples. FYI - I played a ton back then as well so I have a significant personal history on this one. The tournament scene you speak of was virtually non-existent back then compared to today. The internet and net-decking didn't exist and most people played home brews. Tournament staples as we know it didn't exist. Most people played casual games and multiplayer. That Timmy-wow-factor garbage you speak of was what the overwhelming majority of players wanted and were among the most highly sought after cards in the set. Another note here is that the concept of EV hadn't been thought out yet.
I also agree that their price was propped up by the notoriously low supply. That's why Nicol Bolas was worth $50 before chronicles, and the sheer overprinting made it worth less than $1. I speak from experience on that one as I had purchased one a few months before.
The reason that Chronicles was such a problem was that it eroded people's confidence that there would be value in the cards they collected. We see the same thing in the stock market. If you absolutely destroy the value of some cards similar to Chronicles it can easily spiral out of control and devalue everything. See - Black Friday. I'm not saying it would happen, I'm saying it COULD happen. When you're running a business why take a chance that could crater the entire game?
Wizards is taking a more modest approach. We are seeing cards take 50 to 75% hits for stuff that had virtually no supply. Horizon Canopy went from $80 to $30. Mana Drain went from $150 to $50. Given the ridiculously low supply of Mana Drain and others, this was to be expected. There is, however, a marked difference in going from $150 to $50 than from $50 to $1 (valueless) in a reprint set.
One last point before I move on - Every post I see in regards to the pricing of the Masters sets complains about the $10 price tag and the "value" of the cards not even being close. Let me ask this - people have such a problem when the EV of a masters pack is $5 and have to pay $10 (Iconic Masters, which is widely thought to be a failure, even though the EV was above $250 before the set came out). How would it be if it were reprinted to chronicles levels and the EV was $0.10 for that $10 pack? How about if you paid $5 for that $0.10 EV? $3? $1? The reason I bring this up is that the Chronicles packs were relatively inexpensive - $2 IIRC, but toward the end nobody bought them because they knew that the cards inside were worthless. Similar to what we saw with Fallen Empires and Homelands.
The thing with packs is that everyone expects the value contained in the packs to ultimately fall below the cost of a pack. That is simple economics and there is no way around it. The reason the price of masters 25 is bad per pack is the initial EV before release is very low for as masters product. If these were 160 msrp I think they'd be flying off shelves no problem.
Packs always become worthless. You want enough worth in them so the stock mostly sells before that happens.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The reason that Chronicles was such a problem was that it eroded people's confidence that there would be value in the cards they collected. We see the same thing in the stock market. If you absolutely destroy the value of some cards similar to Chronicles it can easily spiral out of control and devalue everything. See - Black Friday. I'm not saying it would happen, I'm saying it COULD happen. When you're running a business why take a chance that could crater the entire game?
But the strange thing is... they were already doing that with 'core set' reprints even before and after Chronicles. It was never clear to me why players had this expectation that their hoarded scarce cards wouldn't get mass-devalued by reprints *when every single Core set was adding reprints of formerly expansion-only-scarce cards anyway*. Revised, 4th, 5th... put white-bordered reprints of formerly expansion-only cards into heavy supply as well. Imagine where Land Tax and Sylvan Library would be now if they weren't put in 4e and their sole printing remained their Legends one, if their supply never exceeded that of Mana Drain? At the time there was already some cachet in owning the black-bordered versions of cards, and Chronicles continued on the same assumption that *worked* in Revised and 4e - that they could do reprints but the fact that the reprinted cards would be instantly understood to be 'not the first edition' by virtue of black border would be enough to keep the early-buyer collectors happy because their first printings would still hold value because of their black borders. In the comic book world (which was going through its own armageddon for different reasons), the printing of 2nd and 3rd editions didn't really damage the value of the 1st edition early buyers' holding because there was assumed to be an inherent relevance to the first printing that no reprint could ever touch.
This eventually proved a false parallel because, as the game grew, more and more players who started with Revised and 4e had already come to accept that they were going to be playing some white bordered cards anyway. They just wanted to play, and didn't care if the cards were black bordered or white as long as they could play. So the original black border printings weren't able to hold the same demand and premium anymore as the market got flooded with the cards that had been assumed wouldn't damage their value, but a new generation of players didn't follow the expected collector model of observing the relevance of first printings.
But Colt is right - if not for that generation of players? If they were chased out because they couldn't get any of the cards they wanted because early adopters hoarded them and made them unattainable and 'a no reprint sets' attitude never made them available? That generation stops playing, and we're not here still playing Magic today.
People who lost their speculative 'fortunes' with Arcades Sabboth obviously hold a different view that Chronicles was a huge mistake. But it's a 'mistake' that proved pretty crucial in establishing a player community large enough that it still hasn't quite petered out all these years later.
The reason that Chronicles was such a problem was that it eroded people's confidence that there would be value in the cards they collected. We see the same thing in the stock market. If you absolutely destroy the value of some cards similar to Chronicles it can easily spiral out of control and devalue everything. See - Black Friday. I'm not saying it would happen, I'm saying it COULD happen. When you're running a business why take a chance that could crater the entire game?
But the strange thing is... they were already doing that with 'core set' reprints even before and after Chronicles. It was never clear to me why players had this expectation that their hoarded scarce cards wouldn't get mass-devalued by reprints *when every single Core set was adding reprints of formerly expansion-only-scarce cards anyway*. Revised, 4th, 5th... put white-bordered reprints of formerly expansion-only cards into heavy supply as well. Imagine where Land Tax and Sylvan Library would be now if they weren't put in 4e and their sole printing remained their Legends one, if their supply never exceeded that of Mana Drain? At the time there was already some cachet in owning the black-bordered versions of cards, and Chronicles continued on the same assumption that *worked* in Revised and 4e - that they could do reprints but the fact that the reprinted cards would be instantly understood to be 'not the first edition' by virtue of black border would be enough to keep the early-buyer collectors happy because their first printings would still hold value because of their black borders. In the comic book world (which was going through its own armageddon for different reasons), the printing of 2nd and 3rd editions didn't really damage the value of the 1st edition early buyers' holding because there was assumed to be an inherent relevance to the first printing that no reprint could ever touch.
This eventually proved a false parallel because, as the game grew, more and more players who started with Revised and 4e had already come to accept that they were going to be playing some white bordered cards anyway. They just wanted to play, and didn't care if the cards were black bordered or white as long as they could play. So the original black border printings weren't able to hold the same demand and premium anymore as the market got flooded with the cards that had been assumed wouldn't damage their value, but a new generation of players didn't follow the expected collector model of observing the relevance of first printings.
But Colt is right - if not for that generation of players? If they were chased out because they couldn't get any of the cards they wanted because early adopters hoarded them and made them unattainable and 'a no reprint sets' attitude never made them available? That generation stops playing, and we're not here still playing Magic today.
In general I agree with your assessments, particularly about the comic books - and you can throw baseball cards into that category as well.
The only point I disagree with is Colt's point. That generation of players? Sorry, I brought a bunch of friends in to play around 95/96. All of the moxes were already $100 and unattainable, and far far more cards that I couldn't afford. There were still plenty of lower cost cards to play with. People weren't quitting because they couldn't afford to have a deck full of ABU / Legends / Arabian Nights cards. My $15 Shivan Dragons were all the rage, and could be opened in any revised booster.
The concern with the Masters sets and Chronicles is that they are reprint only sets with the sole purpose of adding supply and lowering cost of those cards. The Core sets had the intent of getting people into the game, and the Land Tax / Sylvan Library inclusions where the exception, not the norm. Perhaps I wasn't stating my position clearly. I think that the reprint sets are healthy for the game by keeping prices of cards affordable. Where I draw the line is completely crashing the cards value to worthlessness. In that respect I believe that the Iconic Masters and likely Masters 25 will do a good job. They are going to deflate the value of cards by adding significant supply into the market without completely destroying their value.
Where I draw the line is completely crashing the cards value to worthlessness. In that respect I believe that the Iconic Masters and likely Masters 25 will do a good job. They are going to deflate the value of cards by adding significant supply into the market without completely destroying their value.
This is the only sensible position, when looking at Magic as an ecosystem of conflicting desires.
On another subject I think Hasbro is the one truly responsible for this year's mess with masters sets. That and I think they skipped reprinting metalcraft and Karn due to Return to dominaria.
Not saying they are printing old Karn in dominaria but they maybe thinking two at once is too much?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Whenever the topics about reprints and EV and price of the cards and format get heated, I can instantly tell who has and who hasn't read about reprint equity.
I think, when recounting the Chronicles debacle, that people forget how freaking RARE the earliest sets are. I'm not talking Unlimited and revised - they printed the crap out of those.
Alpha rares have 1100 copies. Beta added another 3200 copies.
When you watch Legacy tournaments, and see players using black border copies of dual lands - it's insane. You could run a very small GP with the amount of people who can have a full playset of black border duals.
Then they opened the floodgates with Unlimited. I mean, they went to town! 18,500 copies! We're talking half of a Vegas GP can have duals now!
They kept those floodgates open with Arabian Nights. 20,500 of each Arabian Nights rare. Ran the printer till the presses broke with Antiquities, 31,000 of each rare. Guess they realized they printed too much, and Legends had 19,500 copies of each rare.
At that time, there was so much demand for the earliest stuff (Game is only 18 months old by this time, they decided they were going to really go for broke, and Revised had a mindblowing 289,000 of each rare, and that includes Duals. They probably thought they'd never sell all of those packs, and might as well grab all the cash they could while the game was hot.
The rarest cards in the game are Legends RL cards. There are more Black Lotuses in print than there are Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. I don't know how many people were playing when Legends came out, but I cannot imagine packs lasted very long.
In the end, there are 311,800 of each dual land available. That means 77,950 people can have a playset of any given dual land. There are NFL games that have more than that in attendance.
When you see and comprehend these numbers, you can see why AB, Arabian Nights, Antiquities and Legends collectors lost so much value when Chronicles came along. It is estimated that there are less than half of those early rares left due to damage, loss, parents throwing them away, etc. Less than 10,000 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale... Even in the 90's, 20,000 was rare. In sportscards, people lost their minds when 1992 Donruss Diamond Kings were randomly inserted 3 or 4 to a box, and Elites being about the same ratio as masterpieces are now. Cal Ripken autos numbered to 10,000. I remember prices being over $100 for Elites. Crazy times, and Magic was still 18 months away. In todays world of print them till the cows come home, those early Legends numbers seem like a fantasy.
When you see and comprehend these numbers, you can see why AB, Arabian Nights, Antiquities and Legends collectors lost so much value when Chronicles came along.
But that only happened because of one critically misjudged thing - that people wouldn't care as much as they were expected to care about the unique nature of original printings. There were *exactly* as many black-bordered English Arcades Sabboths printed as there were English Tabernacles. The thinking was that the adding of white bordered Arcades Sabboths to the market, even in numbers that dwarf the original, wouldn't substantially impact the value of the original, because it would continue to have that cachet. If anything, the more new white bordered ones that existed, the more relatively-special the black-bordered ones would be, the lower percentage of the time that people who saw one would see the 'special' OG one rather than the cheapo whiteborder peasant one.
I don't think anyone is arguing for LOTV to become $5. WOTC is very conservative about reprints. I think they could afford to try, TRY scaling things up and seeing what happens. The only high price card I see that's not only dropped substantially but not recovered was goblin guide due to being rare. That's a great argument for ending the mythic rarity in reprint sets entirely. Hell, even if they didn't change print runs but just made all mythics rare and some rares uncommon (that stupid tree) we'd probably all be happy.
I don't think anyone is arguing for LOTV to become $5. WOTC is very conservative about reprints. I think they could afford to try, TRY scaling things up and seeing what happens. The only high price card I see that's not only dropped substantially but not recovered was goblin guide due to being rare. That's a great argument for ending the mythic rarity in reprint sets entirely. Hell, even if they didn't change print runs but just made all mythics rare and some rares uncommon (that stupid tree) we'd probably all be happy.
Actually Bluetron, what started this whole sidetracked conversation was Colt47 proposing JUST this, then ThatMarkGuy commenting immediately after that saying this was a good idea.
The primary issue WoTC has had is just not printing cards in a way that brings down the prices effectively for people playing the format. The masters series is more so for the company to make money on the higher secondary market prices of the cards and any price drops that do happen on certain cards are more like temporary sales, especially when it's a mythic. It's probably time to have a set that brings the prices down in modern, but I doubt wizards will ever make it.
I know I'm definitely saying something that people will find controversial, but Chronicles was probably the best thing to happen to Magic the Gathering (and the other things that happened in reaction to it the worst things). If that set was never printed it's pretty likely no one would be here today talking about MtG. Before that set was printed, all sets were done by X number of cards and that was it, so it made getting packs of a new set basically a game of who could rush to the store first before the packs were gone. I remember that Legends barely had time to exist on store shelves and it was easier to find Antiquities and The Dark at the time, which was still a shot in the literal dark if one could even find a pack of those.
When Chronicles came out, it was like a miracle: people could finally get a hold of a lot of the cards that were in those past limited run sets. The game suddenly got way more affordable and I could finally get a hold of cards like Hell's Caretaker and Revelation, etc. Then the collectors went nuts and Wizards created the reserved list.
Right now there does need to be a Chronicles for Modern so that WoTC can go back to dealing with standard again and leave the 100% reprint sets off the table for a while. Not saying this has to take the form of a booster box, but collector tins and other options can be used to not over print the socks off of lower demand cards.
This is why so many of us are replying and saying this is a bad idea.
Whenever the topics about reprints and EV and price of the cards and format get heated, I can instantly tell who has and who hasn't read about reprint equity.
There are cards that WoTC doesn't like to reprint as well because they punch above their weight. Lotv is the strongest edict engine in the game and is well above things like doomfall.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
its good time to buy 2x Gaddock Teeg? 2x in chinese at 9.0€ ?
im building GW Hexproff so i need it for the sb
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Modern: RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries Legacy:BRx Renimator Playing right now:Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
its good time to buy 2x Gaddock Teeg? 2x in chinese at 9.0€ ?
im building GW Hexproff so i need it for the sb
I think it's a fine time. Gaddock Teeg is absolutely a MUST for Bogles, so I'd do it. On another note, Judge Gaddock Teeg can be had for as low as $25 a pop. I don't prefer the picture myself, but some may like it better.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Whenever the topics about reprints and EV and price of the cards and format get heated, I can instantly tell who has and who hasn't read about reprint equity.
There are cards that WoTC doesn't like to reprint as well because they punch above their weight. Lotv is the strongest edict engine in the game and is well above things like doomfall.
I don't think WOTC would have any problems reprinting LOTV in a non-Standard set. But why include her in M25 when you have JTMS in M25? That's a huge waste of equity and could contribute to some of the price per pack EV issues others have discussed.
WOTC has proven with M25 that they'll reprint cards which players have "bad for the game" assumptions about. See Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice of the Void. I don't think there are any such restrictions on LOTV. It's just not time yet.
wasnt it not too long ago that wotc said they were on the verge of reprinting lotv in standard, but something held them back? with the implication that they dont believe lotv to be too good for standard, but rather that the conditions need to be right.
i wouldnt be surprised to see lili return in a core set.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
wasnt it not too long ago that wotc said they were on the verge of reprinting lotv in standard, but something held them back? with the implication that they dont believe lotv to be too good for standard, but rather that the conditions need to be right.
i wouldnt be surprised to see lili return in a core set.
I think it was the core set between RTR and Theros blocks. So actually a while ago now, as odd as that sounds.
Pretty much this. It was great for people at the time who just wanted the cards to play and bad for collectors who were treating things more like vintage baseball cards. They can't actually "chronicles" modern cards that are heavily played in modern as much as suppress the prices since the majority of 50+ usd modern cards are that way from the massive demand and lower supply. Even reprinting the enemy fetch lands at rare only took them down temporarily.
Also, doing just one good set every two to three years might help with staving off the potential booster box crash that is likely coming. Not sure people here realize this, but there's a lot of booster boxes from RTR and onwards languishing in stores and at distributors right now. It's still possible to get RTR for 90 dollars a box and the theros block is like 75-80 usd a box.
Also, I can't believe someone actually said "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits
Yes, everyone does realize that. One of the many reasons why a Chronicles-esque set would be a disaster; the game was still in its infancy when they printed Chronicles and the print runs for those sets that preceded it pale in comparison to today's print runs.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
The greatest crime in modern price discussions: wanting chase mythics for modern to be 25-50 usd instead of 50-100+ usd.
Well, after running that little experiment to see how people would read "we need another chronicles" I see what is going on now. People here do not read between the lines. I had written a few posts back as well as a post before that my interest was to see more targeted products that hit specific cards and drop the high end down of modern. Chronicles didn't do that, it hit the cards that were casual favorites that were like vintage baseball cards. They absolutely can and should fix the prices on the higher demand modern cards if they intend the format to stay relevant because the masters sets barely work.
As to why they haven't, my only guess is that they are thinking there's more copies out there than there really is or they want to just ride the format like a money train. At the end of the day WoTC wouldn't even have a wide spread counterfits issue if the price vs legality equation was actually in balance.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They run maintenance in the early morning hours so you probably will have to wait a bit to do any purchasing there.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
you are correct in that there weren't a lot of tournament staples. FYI - I played a ton back then as well so I have a significant personal history on this one. The tournament scene you speak of was virtually non-existent back then compared to today. The internet and net-decking didn't exist and most people played home brews. Tournament staples as we know it didn't exist. Most people played casual games and multiplayer. That Timmy-wow-factor garbage you speak of was what the overwhelming majority of players wanted and were among the most highly sought after cards in the set. Another note here is that the concept of EV hadn't been thought out yet.
I also agree that their price was propped up by the notoriously low supply. That's why Nicol Bolas was worth $50 before chronicles, and the sheer overprinting made it worth less than $1. I speak from experience on that one as I had purchased one a few months before.
The reason that Chronicles was such a problem was that it eroded people's confidence that there would be value in the cards they collected. We see the same thing in the stock market. If you absolutely destroy the value of some cards similar to Chronicles it can easily spiral out of control and devalue everything. See - Black Friday. I'm not saying it would happen, I'm saying it COULD happen. When you're running a business why take a chance that could crater the entire game?
Wizards is taking a more modest approach. We are seeing cards take 50 to 75% hits for stuff that had virtually no supply. Horizon Canopy went from $80 to $30. Mana Drain went from $150 to $50. Given the ridiculously low supply of Mana Drain and others, this was to be expected. There is, however, a marked difference in going from $150 to $50 than from $50 to $1 (valueless) in a reprint set.
One last point before I move on - Every post I see in regards to the pricing of the Masters sets complains about the $10 price tag and the "value" of the cards not even being close. Let me ask this - people have such a problem when the EV of a masters pack is $5 and have to pay $10 (Iconic Masters, which is widely thought to be a failure, even though the EV was above $250 before the set came out). How would it be if it were reprinted to chronicles levels and the EV was $0.10 for that $10 pack? How about if you paid $5 for that $0.10 EV? $3? $1? The reason I bring this up is that the Chronicles packs were relatively inexpensive - $2 IIRC, but toward the end nobody bought them because they knew that the cards inside were worthless. Similar to what we saw with Fallen Empires and Homelands.
Packs always become worthless. You want enough worth in them so the stock mostly sells before that happens.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
But the strange thing is... they were already doing that with 'core set' reprints even before and after Chronicles. It was never clear to me why players had this expectation that their hoarded scarce cards wouldn't get mass-devalued by reprints *when every single Core set was adding reprints of formerly expansion-only-scarce cards anyway*. Revised, 4th, 5th... put white-bordered reprints of formerly expansion-only cards into heavy supply as well. Imagine where Land Tax and Sylvan Library would be now if they weren't put in 4e and their sole printing remained their Legends one, if their supply never exceeded that of Mana Drain? At the time there was already some cachet in owning the black-bordered versions of cards, and Chronicles continued on the same assumption that *worked* in Revised and 4e - that they could do reprints but the fact that the reprinted cards would be instantly understood to be 'not the first edition' by virtue of black border would be enough to keep the early-buyer collectors happy because their first printings would still hold value because of their black borders. In the comic book world (which was going through its own armageddon for different reasons), the printing of 2nd and 3rd editions didn't really damage the value of the 1st edition early buyers' holding because there was assumed to be an inherent relevance to the first printing that no reprint could ever touch.
This eventually proved a false parallel because, as the game grew, more and more players who started with Revised and 4e had already come to accept that they were going to be playing some white bordered cards anyway. They just wanted to play, and didn't care if the cards were black bordered or white as long as they could play. So the original black border printings weren't able to hold the same demand and premium anymore as the market got flooded with the cards that had been assumed wouldn't damage their value, but a new generation of players didn't follow the expected collector model of observing the relevance of first printings.
But Colt is right - if not for that generation of players? If they were chased out because they couldn't get any of the cards they wanted because early adopters hoarded them and made them unattainable and 'a no reprint sets' attitude never made them available? That generation stops playing, and we're not here still playing Magic today.
People who lost their speculative 'fortunes' with Arcades Sabboth obviously hold a different view that Chronicles was a huge mistake. But it's a 'mistake' that proved pretty crucial in establishing a player community large enough that it still hasn't quite petered out all these years later.
In general I agree with your assessments, particularly about the comic books - and you can throw baseball cards into that category as well.
The only point I disagree with is Colt's point. That generation of players? Sorry, I brought a bunch of friends in to play around 95/96. All of the moxes were already $100 and unattainable, and far far more cards that I couldn't afford. There were still plenty of lower cost cards to play with. People weren't quitting because they couldn't afford to have a deck full of ABU / Legends / Arabian Nights cards. My $15 Shivan Dragons were all the rage, and could be opened in any revised booster.
The concern with the Masters sets and Chronicles is that they are reprint only sets with the sole purpose of adding supply and lowering cost of those cards. The Core sets had the intent of getting people into the game, and the Land Tax / Sylvan Library inclusions where the exception, not the norm. Perhaps I wasn't stating my position clearly. I think that the reprint sets are healthy for the game by keeping prices of cards affordable. Where I draw the line is completely crashing the cards value to worthlessness. In that respect I believe that the Iconic Masters and likely Masters 25 will do a good job. They are going to deflate the value of cards by adding significant supply into the market without completely destroying their value.
This is the only sensible position, when looking at Magic as an ecosystem of conflicting desires.
Spirits
Not saying they are printing old Karn in dominaria but they maybe thinking two at once is too much?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Goldfish's original reprint equity article: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/how-wizards-manages-its-savings-account
More recent article that touches on it w/r/t M25: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/reprint-equity-masters-sets-and-booster-pricing
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Alpha rares have 1100 copies. Beta added another 3200 copies.
When you watch Legacy tournaments, and see players using black border copies of dual lands - it's insane. You could run a very small GP with the amount of people who can have a full playset of black border duals.
Then they opened the floodgates with Unlimited. I mean, they went to town! 18,500 copies! We're talking half of a Vegas GP can have duals now!
They kept those floodgates open with Arabian Nights. 20,500 of each Arabian Nights rare. Ran the printer till the presses broke with Antiquities, 31,000 of each rare. Guess they realized they printed too much, and Legends had 19,500 copies of each rare.
At that time, there was so much demand for the earliest stuff (Game is only 18 months old by this time, they decided they were going to really go for broke, and Revised had a mindblowing 289,000 of each rare, and that includes Duals. They probably thought they'd never sell all of those packs, and might as well grab all the cash they could while the game was hot.
The rarest cards in the game are Legends RL cards. There are more Black Lotuses in print than there are Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. I don't know how many people were playing when Legends came out, but I cannot imagine packs lasted very long.
In the end, there are 311,800 of each dual land available. That means 77,950 people can have a playset of any given dual land. There are NFL games that have more than that in attendance.
When you see and comprehend these numbers, you can see why AB, Arabian Nights, Antiquities and Legends collectors lost so much value when Chronicles came along. It is estimated that there are less than half of those early rares left due to damage, loss, parents throwing them away, etc. Less than 10,000 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale... Even in the 90's, 20,000 was rare. In sportscards, people lost their minds when 1992 Donruss Diamond Kings were randomly inserted 3 or 4 to a box, and Elites being about the same ratio as masterpieces are now. Cal Ripken autos numbered to 10,000. I remember prices being over $100 for Elites. Crazy times, and Magic was still 18 months away. In todays world of print them till the cows come home, those early Legends numbers seem like a fantasy.
But that only happened because of one critically misjudged thing - that people wouldn't care as much as they were expected to care about the unique nature of original printings. There were *exactly* as many black-bordered English Arcades Sabboths printed as there were English Tabernacles. The thinking was that the adding of white bordered Arcades Sabboths to the market, even in numbers that dwarf the original, wouldn't substantially impact the value of the original, because it would continue to have that cachet. If anything, the more new white bordered ones that existed, the more relatively-special the black-bordered ones would be, the lower percentage of the time that people who saw one would see the 'special' OG one rather than the cheapo whiteborder peasant one.
That's where it all fell apart.
Actually Bluetron, what started this whole sidetracked conversation was Colt47 proposing JUST this, then ThatMarkGuy commenting immediately after that saying this was a good idea.
This is why so many of us are replying and saying this is a bad idea.
There are cards that WoTC doesn't like to reprint as well because they punch above their weight. Lotv is the strongest edict engine in the game and is well above things like doomfall.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
im building GW Hexproff so i need it for the sb
RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron
R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries
Legacy:BRx Renimator
Playing right now: Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
I think it's a fine time. Gaddock Teeg is absolutely a MUST for Bogles, so I'd do it. On another note, Judge Gaddock Teeg can be had for as low as $25 a pop. I don't prefer the picture myself, but some may like it better.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)humans might play 1 or 2 in the sideboard, before that i think the highest demand for the card was when legacy maverick was popular like 5+ years ago.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)WOTC has proven with M25 that they'll reprint cards which players have "bad for the game" assumptions about. See Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice of the Void. I don't think there are any such restrictions on LOTV. It's just not time yet.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
i wouldnt be surprised to see lili return in a core set.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero