Also, let me ask this question: What is the point of modern?
To have a non-rotating 60-card competitive format not hindered by the Reserved List.
Kind of odd that we effectively have a reserved list in modern in everything but name, then.
What do you mean? Weren't people recently complaining that we had too many reprint sets, and that it was devaluing the staples of the format with a flood of new printings? The current adage is to NOT invest in Modern staples you aren't planning on playing because they could be reprinted at any time and in any quantity. Prices spiking are usually from people trying to gamble, control the market, or capitalize on short term gains.
A good example is Through the Breach. It's a fairly innocuous card that has no business being as expensive as it is. It sees low to moderate play with little big-name paper success and medium MTGO presence (whatever that means with current data sets). It's expensive because of low supply from an old set. If reprinted, it would tank to under $20 easily, if it's not reprinted... well... it spikes to $70. That price is likely due to people waffling on the fence about whether or not to buy into a Breach deck. If they bought in at the pre-A25 price and it was reprinted, they'd be out about $80 on their playset. But if they wait and it's NOT reprinted, it now costs an additional $60. It's a gamble either way. For speculators, it's even worse, which is why I stopped speccing on anything I wasn't also planning on playing and rarely bought more than a playset of anything unless on the banned list.
Edit: it appears that the Breach spike was just that... a spike. There are still multiple copies available on TCG or eBay in the low $40s. Higher than it was, but definitely not $70+
Also, let me ask this question: What is the point of modern?
To have a non-rotating 60-card competitive format not hindered by the Reserved List.
Kind of odd that we effectively have a reserved list in modern in everything but name, then.
Well, not literally. The thing is people don't dislike the reserved list because of what it is, but what it does to the cost of playing the game. Unfortunately, if wizards doesn't actually reprint cards regularly for modern it's not really a whole lot better than legacy. There will always be budget brews in modern, but do those ever make a GP or Pro Tour? The face of modern is what gets shown via media by places like channel fireball, pro-tour coverage, etc, and players want to play these decks that get shown and own the cards.
At the end of the day, though, wizards really hasn't done their part to support it effectively. They've more so been playing arm chair general from what I can tell and just did their part to fudge numbers.
That's an unprovable and, honestly, flat out wrong accusation. What cards are not reprinted per a published policy? None. No such policy exists and dozens of expensive staples have been reprinted over the years. If Wizards excluded specific reprints in this set, it is because they didn't want them in the draft environment, couldn't fit them, and/or wanted to save them for a later release. This may make them profit-driven (surprise; that's their company's goal), but it doesn't mean there's a so-called Modern RL. That's just a ridiculous claim.
Also, let me ask this question: What is the point of modern?
To have a non-rotating 60-card competitive format not hindered by the Reserved List.
Kind of odd that we effectively have a reserved list in modern in everything but name, then.
Well, not literally. The thing is people don't dislike the reserved list because of what it is, but what it does to the cost of playing the game. Unfortunately, if wizards doesn't actually reprint cards regularly for modern it's not really a whole lot better than legacy. There will always be budget brews in modern, but do those ever make a GP or Pro Tour? The face of modern is what gets shown via media by places like channel fireball, pro-tour coverage, etc, and players want to play these decks that get shown and own the cards.
At the end of the day, though, wizards really hasn't done their part to support it effectively. They've more so been playing arm chair general from what I can tell and just did their part to fudge numbers.
That's an unprovable and, honestly, flat out wrong accusation. What cards are not reprinted per a published policy? None. No such policy exists and dozens of expensive staples have been reprinted over the years. If Wizards excluded specific reprints in this set, it is because they didn't want them in the draft environment, couldn't fit them, and/or wanted to save them for a later release. This may make them profit-driven (surprise; that's their company's goal), but it doesn't mean there's a so-called Modern RL. That's just a ridiculous claim.
To add on to this, many of the cards that are spiking because of lack-of-inclusion in A25 have already been reprinted. Most of them fairly recently and some of them multiple times.
There are definitely other targets that could use reprints, but if their business plan is to release multiple Masters sets a year (and we keep buying them; even if discounted), they will keep holding things back for "the next set."
It's not about if a card gets reprinted, it's about how it gets reprinted. Well, it's not worth going on a tirade over modern prices because it's wizards game and they can play this however they want to. I find it interesting that some people who find modern too expensive have foiled out commander decks worth about a thousand dollars, but I got a feeling it's the fact that many decks are basically unplayable without a big initial investment that really makes this format hard to break into. Smaller, incremental payments have always been an easier way to get people to spend money than telling them they have to spend about 300 dollars on a single playset of a card to make a certain deck strategy work.
No one wants their Liliana of the Veil to be 5 dollars, and the vast majority of players don't want to pay 400 usd for a playset of her. Are people really so unwilling to say that maybe wizards should print a card so that it effectively drops to a happy medium, or have people fallen to the point that they basically are investors in everything but name now?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It's not about if a card gets reprinted, it's about how it gets reprinted. Well, it's not worth going on a tirade over modern prices because it's wizards game and they can play this however they want to. I find it interesting that some people who find modern too expensive have foiled out commander decks worth about a thousand dollars, but I got a feeling it's the fact that many decks are basically unplayable without a big initial investment that really makes this format hard to break into. Smaller, incremental payments have always been an easier way to get people to spend money than telling them they have to spend about 300 dollars on a single playset of a card to make a certain deck strategy work.
No one wants their Liliana of the Veil to be 5 dollars, and the vast majority of players don't want to pay 400 usd for a playset of her. Are people really so unwilling to say that maybe wizards should print a card so that it effectively drops to a happy medium, or have people fallen to the point that they basically are investors in everything but name now?
Yep, well said. This is what I was getting at with my earlier point on Legacy. With the exception of duel lands (cards that maintain value because of the reserved list), the price per card is actually lower than Modern for most decks. Why should the barrier of Modern be so high when it doesn't have the baggage of the reserved list? For whatever reason WotC wants to keep supply low for most Modern staples, and apparently, they think 1k~ USD for a deck is sustainable for a healthy format.
I'm not entirely sure why. I'd rather cheaper decks and more people to play with. If you want to invest in Magic cards (why!?) invest in the reserved list
Also, let me ask this question: What is the point of modern?
To have a non-rotating 60-card competitive format not hindered by the Reserved List.
Kind of odd that we effectively have a reserved list in modern in everything but name, then.
Well, not literally. The thing is people don't dislike the reserved list because of what it is, but what it does to the cost of playing the game. Unfortunately, if wizards doesn't actually reprint cards regularly for modern it's not really a whole lot better than legacy. There will always be budget brews in modern, but do those ever make a GP or Pro Tour? The face of modern is what gets shown via media by places like channel fireball, pro-tour coverage, etc, and players want to play these decks that get shown and own the cards.
At the end of the day, though, wizards really hasn't done their part to support it effectively. They've more so been playing arm chair general from what I can tell and just did their part to fudge numbers.
Look at how many cards, in Tier 1/2 level decks, have been either reprinted, or are from the last, say, 3 or 4 (current to SoI?) blocks.
Hint: Its MANY.
Just because the card(s) you may personally want have not come down to $20 or something, doesnt mean Wizards isnt supporting the format.
It's not about if a card gets reprinted, it's about how it gets reprinted. Well, it's not worth going on a tirade over modern prices because it's wizards game and they can play this however they want to. I find it interesting that some people who find modern too expensive have foiled out commander decks worth about a thousand dollars, but I got a feeling it's the fact that many decks are basically unplayable without a big initial investment that really makes this format hard to break into. Smaller, incremental payments have always been an easier way to get people to spend money than telling them they have to spend about 300 dollars on a single playset of a card to make a certain deck strategy work.
No one wants their Liliana of the Veil to be 5 dollars, and the vast majority of players don't want to pay 400 usd for a playset of her. Are people really so unwilling to say that maybe wizards should print a card so that it effectively drops to a happy medium, or have people fallen to the point that they basically are investors in everything but name now?
Yep, well said. This is what I was getting at with my earlier point on Legacy. With the exception of duel lands (cards that maintain value because of the reserved list), the price per card is actually lower than Modern for most decks. Why should the barrier of Modern be so high when it doesn't have the baggage of the reserved list? For whatever reason WotC wants to keep supply low for most Modern staples, and apparently, they think 1k~ USD for a deck is sustainable for a healthy format.
I'm not entirely sure why. I'd rather cheaper decks and more people to play with. If you want to invest in Magic cards (why!?) invest in the reserved list
If Modern didn't exist and Legacy was the sole supported non-rotating format even without the RL, and Wizards supported it with the same volume of reprints as they aimed at Modern, Legacy would be significantly more expensive than Modern is now. This is because the baseline availability of cards is super low, and the top-tier is clustered around fewer staples. Also, demand would be outrageous because it would be the only supported non-rotating format and all the players interested in such an experience would exclusively play Legacy.
Reading this thread, an outsider would think Modern is failing, recent products aren't selling, decks are too expensive, and the format is losing popularity and not attracting new blood. In reality, the opposite is probably true on all these counts. Prices and reprints are just fine.
It's not about if a card gets reprinted, it's about how it gets reprinted. Well, it's not worth going on a tirade over modern prices because it's wizards game and they can play this however they want to. I find it interesting that some people who find modern too expensive have foiled out commander decks worth about a thousand dollars, but I got a feeling it's the fact that many decks are basically unplayable without a big initial investment that really makes this format hard to break into. Smaller, incremental payments have always been an easier way to get people to spend money than telling them they have to spend about 300 dollars on a single playset of a card to make a certain deck strategy work.
No one wants their Liliana of the Veil to be 5 dollars, and the vast majority of players don't want to pay 400 usd for a playset of her. Are people really so unwilling to say that maybe wizards should print a card so that it effectively drops to a happy medium, or have people fallen to the point that they basically are investors in everything but name now?
Yep, well said. This is what I was getting at with my earlier point on Legacy. With the exception of duel lands (cards that maintain value because of the reserved list), the price per card is actually lower than Modern for most decks. Why should the barrier of Modern be so high when it doesn't have the baggage of the reserved list? For whatever reason WotC wants to keep supply low for most Modern staples, and apparently, they think 1k~ USD for a deck is sustainable for a healthy format.
I'm not entirely sure why. I'd rather cheaper decks and more people to play with. If you want to invest in Magic cards (why!?) invest in the reserved list
The supply is probably higher than you might think. The thing that is driving the prices is the prize support and the more widely supported tournament seen, and this has been a problem for people who play casually (or any other format that needs the card) for ages. To be frank the Masters series model barely works for modern and completely fails for any other format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
According to MTG Goldfish and the last two postings of MTGO League 5-0s (124 decklists), the average price for Modern is under $1,000 at $936.59. That's even taking into account any current price spikes as well. That's a good deal below the $1,200-1,300 average of just a few years ago.
Also, let me ask this question: What is the point of modern?
To have a non-rotating 60-card competitive format not hindered by the Reserved List.
Kind of odd that we effectively have a reserved list in modern in everything but name, then.
Well, not literally. The thing is people don't dislike the reserved list because of what it is, but what it does to the cost of playing the game. Unfortunately, if wizards doesn't actually reprint cards regularly for modern it's not really a whole lot better than legacy. There will always be budget brews in modern, but do those ever make a GP or Pro Tour? The face of modern is what gets shown via media by places like channel fireball, pro-tour coverage, etc, and players want to play these decks that get shown and own the cards.
At the end of the day, though, wizards really hasn't done their part to support it effectively. They've more so been playing arm chair general from what I can tell and just did their part to fudge numbers.
Look at how many cards, in Tier 1/2 level decks, have been either reprinted, or are from the last, say, 3 or 4 (current to SoI?) blocks.
Hint: Its MANY.
Just because the card(s) you may personally want have not come down to $20 or something, doesnt mean Wizards isnt supporting the format.
Okay, what cards do you think I want? Just wondering.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also, let me ask this question: What is the point of modern?
To have a non-rotating 60-card competitive format not hindered by the Reserved List.
Kind of odd that we effectively have a reserved list in modern in everything but name, then.
Well, not literally. The thing is people don't dislike the reserved list because of what it is, but what it does to the cost of playing the game. Unfortunately, if wizards doesn't actually reprint cards regularly for modern it's not really a whole lot better than legacy. There will always be budget brews in modern, but do those ever make a GP or Pro Tour? The face of modern is what gets shown via media by places like channel fireball, pro-tour coverage, etc, and players want to play these decks that get shown and own the cards.
At the end of the day, though, wizards really hasn't done their part to support it effectively. They've more so been playing arm chair general from what I can tell and just did their part to fudge numbers.
Look at how many cards, in Tier 1/2 level decks, have been either reprinted, or are from the last, say, 3 or 4 (current to SoI?) blocks.
Hint: Its MANY.
Just because the card(s) you may personally want have not come down to $20 or something, doesnt mean Wizards isnt supporting the format.
3-4 blocks. That's Battle for Zendikar onwards. Give me the many examples.
According to MTG Goldfish and the last two postings of MTGO League 5-0s (124 decklists), the average price for Modern is under $1,000 at $936.59. That's even taking into account any current price spikes as well. That's a good deal below the $1,200-1,300 average of just a few years ago.
Would that not be due to the stranglehold of Jund/Junk/Affinity/Twin, all being very expensive decks and dominating the format?
I mean thats where my mind goes anyway, but 'a few years' could mean many things. :]
While I agree mostly with the posters here defending Masters sets, I have to point out something as well. I am someone who has bought nearly all of the Modern staples, so that I can play any deck that I may want to. I often have to buy new cards though, like when Kologhan's Commands were new or other random cards.
Do you know why I don't care much when cards that I own are reprinted? HINT: It doesn't even have to do with the fact that I bought most of these cards many, many years ago. It has to do with the fact that when some of my staples go down, others go up...even more. I think that IS where people believe that Masters sets have failed. Now I don't know how much Masters sets can have on the Secondary market, but if Masters sets are causing some cards to go down, but in return, others are spiking wildly, then in at least some minor way, they are a failure. Over 1 year ago, I was selling a Foil Through the Breach for $11 on this site. Nobody wanted it. Eventually I found 3 more Foils at CFB for $17 each, so I decided to foil out my deck Grishoalbrand. Now the card has an unfathomable price, for a freaking Through the Breach!
I am certainly NOT in the camp of printing cards ala Chronicles style. That will definitely get me to at least nearly quit Modern. But I think some thought DOES in fact have to go into making the cards for this set. Freaking Ensnaring Bridge! Can you imagine a Drafter having to play against this card? Lol.
*Also, telling someone just to not buy the set is kind of a cop out. Masters sets have an effect on the secondary market whether you buy a single pack or not. I myself have only bought 2 Modern Masters 2015 boxes (of the Masters series) and 0 packs, outside of Draft, and those sets certainly impacted the cards I own. This sort of argument reminds me of when someone here says, "then don't play Modern!" MTGS User Shmanka put it very well that this sort of argument is a copout and people can certainly have complaints about a format that they still DO love very much.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Also, let me ask this question: What is the point of modern?
To have a non-rotating 60-card competitive format not hindered by the Reserved List.
Kind of odd that we effectively have a reserved list in modern in everything but name, then.
Well, not literally. The thing is people don't dislike the reserved list because of what it is, but what it does to the cost of playing the game. Unfortunately, if wizards doesn't actually reprint cards regularly for modern it's not really a whole lot better than legacy. There will always be budget brews in modern, but do those ever make a GP or Pro Tour? The face of modern is what gets shown via media by places like channel fireball, pro-tour coverage, etc, and players want to play these decks that get shown and own the cards.
At the end of the day, though, wizards really hasn't done their part to support it effectively. They've more so been playing arm chair general from what I can tell and just did their part to fudge numbers.
Look at how many cards, in Tier 1/2 level decks, have been either reprinted, or are from the last, say, 3 or 4 (current to SoI?) blocks.
Hint: Its MANY.
Just because the card(s) you may personally want have not come down to $20 or something, doesnt mean Wizards isnt supporting the format.
3-4 blocks. That's Battle for Zendikar onwards. Give me the many examples.
Really? We need to do this again? Are we claiming that Standard doesnt impact modern?
Please note however when I said MANY that was including Reprints period. Almost my entire UWR Control has been reprinted at least once...
I'm actually not going to list it for you, but if you dont think Standard impacts Modern, I'm not going to be the one to convince you, because its a simple google search...
I have no clue, considering the amount of reprints I personally kept, or have owned across URx and BGx....welllllllllllll its tough to say.
You could look through the old Tier 1, and several of those decks have been almost completely reprinted.
You claim Wizards hasnt done its part...well they have. What exactly, clearly, and succinctly, are you looking for?
No one wants their Liliana of the Veil to be 5 dollars, and the vast majority of players don't want to pay 400 usd for a playset of her. Are people really so unwilling to say that maybe wizards should print a card so that it effectively drops to a happy medium, or have people fallen to the point that they basically are investors in everything but name now?
I just want these over priced pieces brought to a place that people can stop complaining about. Instead, we have wizards reprinting Snapcaster Mage at mythic in masters 2017 instead of rare because of draft or wanting to make a new chase card, causing the price to now rise after it's printing to 77 dollars because of no reprint in masters 25 and people wanting to play the game with a competitive deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
yeah i agree that it doesnt have to be all or nothing. itd be nice if they could strike that middle ground.
for the most part i think wotc just doesnt know how to proceed. they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. to be frank, modern isnt supposed to be this popular. so they are in unprecedented territory.
modern was in an odd place not too long ago. the metagame was volatile, and there were a series of bannings in relatively quick succession. around one of the releases of the masters sets there was a particular modern pro-tour that was a pathetic showcasing of the format with burn being one of the most played decks resulting in multiple burn mirrors on camera. wotc decided to put the format on the back-burner, removing it as a pro-tour format.
what they didnt expect was that this was exactly what the format needed. out of the spotlight, and released from the shackles of constant bans to keep the format 'fresh', the format thrived.
add to this years of a stale standard format with multiple ban waves (something that almost never happens), and suddenly the modern format is exploding. placing a unforeseen burden on the card economy.
wotc had a system in place for selective reprinting outside of the purview of standard already in place (masters). what ended up happening though is that reprints just raise the cost of cards around it, which meant that decks werent dropping in price to a significant degree. they obviously cant just start reprinting decklists in their entirety, so what is the best option?
basically what im getting at is, if you want to see a uniform drop in modern deck prices, then standard needs to stop sucking.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Snaps only became expensive again once GDS became a thing. There was a point there hilariously when Snaps was a $20 card, and after Twin was banned he slowly dropped, to a $40 dollar (thats about my peak for 'expensive' cards) because...blue sucked.
Now, when he's in several of the top decks, in an archetype that has been underplayed for literally years in the format? Yeah, he spikes.
Oh and GTW, Tracker (recent card alert!) is on its way to being $10, its only going to take a BBE (reprinted card alert!) deck breaking on camera and showing Tracker's power to push it over the edge.
Also, let me ask this question: What is the point of modern?
To have a non-rotating 60-card competitive format not hindered by the Reserved List.
Kind of odd that we effectively have a reserved list in modern in everything but name, then.
What do you mean? Weren't people recently complaining that we had too many reprint sets, and that it was devaluing the staples of the format with a flood of new printings? The current adage is to NOT invest in Modern staples you aren't planning on playing because they could be reprinted at any time and in any quantity. Prices spiking are usually from people trying to gamble, control the market, or capitalize on short term gains.
Talking about "many reprints" and "card prices collapsing" is nothing but made up drama with no reasl basis, attemptimg to induce FUD about the possibility of keeping prices down (at the levels when the cards where STandard legal) with a effective reprint policy. Take Tarmogoyr: it's the most egregious example with three (or THREE!!! as doomsayers would like) reprints, yet its price still sits at $90 - 110. Or Liliana of the Veil, reprinted one time which means it has been REPRINTED!! Now as $110, I remember it being $70 before the reprint. Total loss of value right there unless you planned on playing her...
The adage of "buy only if you plan to play it because it's getting reprinted" would be ideal if it only were true. I, for one, as a player who wants to have fellow players to compete with, have no interest or care on the effect on hoarders or speculators, as bad as it could be. They are actively risking their money on their own and not benefiting WoTC at all, why would they owe them anything? I'd rather give money to Wizards by buying reprints than having to pay $150 for a playset and start worrying for NM / SP issues.
The guys that have interest on prices being high because they profit and make a live off it, it's obvious they don't want reprints at all. But don't bring that the Modern Masters sets have been a rain of staples that have crashed the prices on the cards to the demerit of the modern playerbase, cause it ain't true at all.
I just want these over priced pieces brought to a place that people can stop complaining about. Instead, we have wizards reprinting Snapcaster Mage at mythic in masters 2017 instead of rare because of draft or wanting to make a new chase card, causing the price to now rise after it's printing to 77 dollars because of no reprint in masters 25 and people wanting to play the game with a competitive deck.
Between the time Snapcaster's reprint was announced and a few months after MM17's release, Snapcasters could be had regularly and easily for as cheap as $35 (and ISD foils for as cheap as $80). If players wanted Snaps, that was the time to get them (and the time when I was cashing out other cards for my ISD foils). Yeah, Snap is $77 now, but it has nothing to do with no reprint or upshifted to Mythic. It has everything to do with blue not being complete gutter trash anymore (or at least the perception that it's not) because Jace was unbanned. There was ample time to get a playset of Snaps under $150 for those who wanted them.
Talking about "many reprints" and "card prices collapsing" is nothing but made up drama with no reasl basis, attemptimg to induce FUD about the possibility of keeping prices down (at the levels when the cards where STandard legal) with a effective reprint policy. Take Tarmogoyr: it's the most egregious example with three (or THREE!!! as doomsayers would like) reprints, yet its price still sits at $90 - 110. Or Liliana of the Veil, reprinted one time which means it has been REPRINTED!! Now as $110, I remember it being $70 before the reprint. Total loss of value right there unless you planned on playing her...
1) Tarmogoyf was well above $200 for a long time before MM15's reprint began it's slow decend. It dropped steadily for the next two years and was around $120 when reprinted again in MM17. It continued to fall for the next year, bottoming out around $70, before coming back up after BBE was unbanned.
2) For nearly all of 2016, Liliana of the Veil was over $100, spending most time around $110. Its reprint in MM17 dropped prices of the original to about $80 and MM17 prices bottomed in the mid $60s before climbing and stabilizing around that same ~$80. Her price did not raise again until BBE was unbanned.
Seems like the price rising has less to do with lack of reprint and everything to do with unbanning BBE...
The reprints did exactly what they intended... slowly and gradually reduce prices without crashing.
I just want these over priced pieces brought to a place that people can stop complaining about. Instead, we have wizards reprinting Snapcaster Mage at mythic in masters 2017 instead of rare because of draft or wanting to make a new chase card, causing the price to now rise after it's printing to 77 dollars because of no reprint in masters 25 and people wanting to play the game with a competitive deck.
Between the time Snapcaster's reprint was announced and a few months after MM17's release, Snapcasters could be had regularly and easily for as cheap as $35 (and ISD foils for as cheap as $80). If players wanted Snaps, that was the time to get them (and the time when I was cashing out other cards for my ISD foils). Yeah, Snap is $77 now, but it has nothing to do with no reprint or upshifted to Mythic. It has everything to do with blue not being complete gutter trash anymore (or at least the perception that it's not) because Jace was unbanned. There was ample time to get a playset of Snaps under $150 for those who wanted them.
Dipped, then fired up and went higher than it was previously, which was at 50-60 usd. With a card like that they basically had two choices: print snap at rare once in masters 2017 or print it at mythic twice in masters 25 and masters 2017.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
What do you mean? Weren't people recently complaining that we had too many reprint sets, and that it was devaluing the staples of the format with a flood of new printings? The current adage is to NOT invest in Modern staples you aren't planning on playing because they could be reprinted at any time and in any quantity. Prices spiking are usually from people trying to gamble, control the market, or capitalize on short term gains.
A good example is Through the Breach. It's a fairly innocuous card that has no business being as expensive as it is. It sees low to moderate play with little big-name paper success and medium MTGO presence (whatever that means with current data sets). It's expensive because of low supply from an old set. If reprinted, it would tank to under $20 easily, if it's not reprinted... well... it spikes to $70. That price is likely due to people waffling on the fence about whether or not to buy into a Breach deck. If they bought in at the pre-A25 price and it was reprinted, they'd be out about $80 on their playset. But if they wait and it's NOT reprinted, it now costs an additional $60. It's a gamble either way. For speculators, it's even worse, which is why I stopped speccing on anything I wasn't also planning on playing and rarely bought more than a playset of anything unless on the banned list.
Edit: it appears that the Breach spike was just that... a spike. There are still multiple copies available on TCG or eBay in the low $40s. Higher than it was, but definitely not $70+
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
That's an unprovable and, honestly, flat out wrong accusation. What cards are not reprinted per a published policy? None. No such policy exists and dozens of expensive staples have been reprinted over the years. If Wizards excluded specific reprints in this set, it is because they didn't want them in the draft environment, couldn't fit them, and/or wanted to save them for a later release. This may make them profit-driven (surprise; that's their company's goal), but it doesn't mean there's a so-called Modern RL. That's just a ridiculous claim.
To add on to this, many of the cards that are spiking because of lack-of-inclusion in A25 have already been reprinted. Most of them fairly recently and some of them multiple times.
There are definitely other targets that could use reprints, but if their business plan is to release multiple Masters sets a year (and we keep buying them; even if discounted), they will keep holding things back for "the next set."
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
No one wants their Liliana of the Veil to be 5 dollars, and the vast majority of players don't want to pay 400 usd for a playset of her. Are people really so unwilling to say that maybe wizards should print a card so that it effectively drops to a happy medium, or have people fallen to the point that they basically are investors in everything but name now?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yep, well said. This is what I was getting at with my earlier point on Legacy. With the exception of duel lands (cards that maintain value because of the reserved list), the price per card is actually lower than Modern for most decks. Why should the barrier of Modern be so high when it doesn't have the baggage of the reserved list? For whatever reason WotC wants to keep supply low for most Modern staples, and apparently, they think 1k~ USD for a deck is sustainable for a healthy format.
I'm not entirely sure why. I'd rather cheaper decks and more people to play with. If you want to invest in Magic cards (why!?) invest in the reserved list
Look at how many cards, in Tier 1/2 level decks, have been either reprinted, or are from the last, say, 3 or 4 (current to SoI?) blocks.
Hint: Its MANY.
Just because the card(s) you may personally want have not come down to $20 or something, doesnt mean Wizards isnt supporting the format.
Spirits
If Modern didn't exist and Legacy was the sole supported non-rotating format even without the RL, and Wizards supported it with the same volume of reprints as they aimed at Modern, Legacy would be significantly more expensive than Modern is now. This is because the baseline availability of cards is super low, and the top-tier is clustered around fewer staples. Also, demand would be outrageous because it would be the only supported non-rotating format and all the players interested in such an experience would exclusively play Legacy.
Reading this thread, an outsider would think Modern is failing, recent products aren't selling, decks are too expensive, and the format is losing popularity and not attracting new blood. In reality, the opposite is probably true on all these counts. Prices and reprints are just fine.
The supply is probably higher than you might think. The thing that is driving the prices is the prize support and the more widely supported tournament seen, and this has been a problem for people who play casually (or any other format that needs the card) for ages. To be frank the Masters series model barely works for modern and completely fails for any other format.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Okay, what cards do you think I want? Just wondering.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You could look through the old Tier 1, and several of those decks have been almost completely reprinted.
You claim Wizards hasnt done its part...well they have. What exactly, clearly, and succinctly, are you looking for?
Spirits
3-4 blocks. That's Battle for Zendikar onwards. Give me the many examples.
Would that not be due to the stranglehold of Jund/Junk/Affinity/Twin, all being very expensive decks and dominating the format?
I mean thats where my mind goes anyway, but 'a few years' could mean many things. :]
Spirits
Do you know why I don't care much when cards that I own are reprinted? HINT: It doesn't even have to do with the fact that I bought most of these cards many, many years ago. It has to do with the fact that when some of my staples go down, others go up...even more. I think that IS where people believe that Masters sets have failed. Now I don't know how much Masters sets can have on the Secondary market, but if Masters sets are causing some cards to go down, but in return, others are spiking wildly, then in at least some minor way, they are a failure. Over 1 year ago, I was selling a Foil Through the Breach for $11 on this site. Nobody wanted it. Eventually I found 3 more Foils at CFB for $17 each, so I decided to foil out my deck Grishoalbrand. Now the card has an unfathomable price, for a freaking Through the Breach!
I am certainly NOT in the camp of printing cards ala Chronicles style. That will definitely get me to at least nearly quit Modern. But I think some thought DOES in fact have to go into making the cards for this set. Freaking Ensnaring Bridge! Can you imagine a Drafter having to play against this card? Lol.
*Also, telling someone just to not buy the set is kind of a cop out. Masters sets have an effect on the secondary market whether you buy a single pack or not. I myself have only bought 2 Modern Masters 2015 boxes (of the Masters series) and 0 packs, outside of Draft, and those sets certainly impacted the cards I own. This sort of argument reminds me of when someone here says, "then don't play Modern!" MTGS User Shmanka put it very well that this sort of argument is a copout and people can certainly have complaints about a format that they still DO love very much.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Really? We need to do this again? Are we claiming that Standard doesnt impact modern?
Please note however when I said MANY that was including Reprints period. Almost my entire UWR Control has been reprinted at least once...
I'm actually not going to list it for you, but if you dont think Standard impacts Modern, I'm not going to be the one to convince you, because its a simple google search...
Spirits
I just want these over priced pieces brought to a place that people can stop complaining about. Instead, we have wizards reprinting Snapcaster Mage at mythic in masters 2017 instead of rare because of draft or wanting to make a new chase card, causing the price to now rise after it's printing to 77 dollars because of no reprint in masters 25 and people wanting to play the game with a competitive deck.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
for the most part i think wotc just doesnt know how to proceed. they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. to be frank, modern isnt supposed to be this popular. so they are in unprecedented territory.
modern was in an odd place not too long ago. the metagame was volatile, and there were a series of bannings in relatively quick succession. around one of the releases of the masters sets there was a particular modern pro-tour that was a pathetic showcasing of the format with burn being one of the most played decks resulting in multiple burn mirrors on camera. wotc decided to put the format on the back-burner, removing it as a pro-tour format.
what they didnt expect was that this was exactly what the format needed. out of the spotlight, and released from the shackles of constant bans to keep the format 'fresh', the format thrived.
add to this years of a stale standard format with multiple ban waves (something that almost never happens), and suddenly the modern format is exploding. placing a unforeseen burden on the card economy.
wotc had a system in place for selective reprinting outside of the purview of standard already in place (masters). what ended up happening though is that reprints just raise the cost of cards around it, which meant that decks werent dropping in price to a significant degree. they obviously cant just start reprinting decklists in their entirety, so what is the best option?
basically what im getting at is, if you want to see a uniform drop in modern deck prices, then standard needs to stop sucking.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Now, when he's in several of the top decks, in an archetype that has been underplayed for literally years in the format? Yeah, he spikes.
Spirits
Spirits
Talking about "many reprints" and "card prices collapsing" is nothing but made up drama with no reasl basis, attemptimg to induce FUD about the possibility of keeping prices down (at the levels when the cards where STandard legal) with a effective reprint policy. Take Tarmogoyr: it's the most egregious example with three (or THREE!!! as doomsayers would like) reprints, yet its price still sits at $90 - 110. Or Liliana of the Veil, reprinted one time which means it has been REPRINTED!! Now as $110, I remember it being $70 before the reprint. Total loss of value right there unless you planned on playing her...
The adage of "buy only if you plan to play it because it's getting reprinted" would be ideal if it only were true. I, for one, as a player who wants to have fellow players to compete with, have no interest or care on the effect on hoarders or speculators, as bad as it could be. They are actively risking their money on their own and not benefiting WoTC at all, why would they owe them anything? I'd rather give money to Wizards by buying reprints than having to pay $150 for a playset and start worrying for NM / SP issues.
The guys that have interest on prices being high because they profit and make a live off it, it's obvious they don't want reprints at all. But don't bring that the Modern Masters sets have been a rain of staples that have crashed the prices on the cards to the demerit of the modern playerbase, cause it ain't true at all.
Between the time Snapcaster's reprint was announced and a few months after MM17's release, Snapcasters could be had regularly and easily for as cheap as $35 (and ISD foils for as cheap as $80). If players wanted Snaps, that was the time to get them (and the time when I was cashing out other cards for my ISD foils). Yeah, Snap is $77 now, but it has nothing to do with no reprint or upshifted to Mythic. It has everything to do with blue not being complete gutter trash anymore (or at least the perception that it's not) because Jace was unbanned. There was ample time to get a playset of Snaps under $150 for those who wanted them.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I simply take issue with completely indefensible positions like 'Wizards doesnt support Modern'.
Spirits
1) Tarmogoyf was well above $200 for a long time before MM15's reprint began it's slow decend. It dropped steadily for the next two years and was around $120 when reprinted again in MM17. It continued to fall for the next year, bottoming out around $70, before coming back up after BBE was unbanned.
2) For nearly all of 2016, Liliana of the Veil was over $100, spending most time around $110. Its reprint in MM17 dropped prices of the original to about $80 and MM17 prices bottomed in the mid $60s before climbing and stabilizing around that same ~$80. Her price did not raise again until BBE was unbanned.
Seems like the price rising has less to do with lack of reprint and everything to do with unbanning BBE...
The reprints did exactly what they intended... slowly and gradually reduce prices without crashing.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Dipped, then fired up and went higher than it was previously, which was at 50-60 usd. With a card like that they basically had two choices: print snap at rare once in masters 2017 or print it at mythic twice in masters 25 and masters 2017.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!