I'm not arguing to argue. You are saying they want to be able to print Modern cards in Standard. I'm saying they want to print 'Eternally Standard' level cards in Standard.
Your point is relevant to Standard, and a future format which doesnt exist. They want to be able to lean on Shock (then again look at the last Top 8 for Standard lol) and other lesser versions of Cards to have a set of staples they are comfortable with. No argument there from me.
The point we differ on, is that you think they want Modern level cards to reprint in Standard, when...thats pretty pointless if you have Masters sets you can literally load up with value, and print money with.
(Note to Mods: This is all relevant to Price, it is about the reprint paths Wizards chooses)
This part here.
Generic cards that can be skinned to whatever setting they are printing solves a lot of problems the company is having at the moment and has positive implications for modern.
Is right, up to the 'positive implications for modern'.
Print shock in every set from now till the end of time, its still not Bolt, and its still draft chaff as far as Modern is concerned, just like every other 'likely reprint' they would put in Standard.
Until they start putting Goyf, Bob, Noble, and the like into Standard sets you are just off target. They are talking about cards like Shock not Lightning Bolt, cards like Essence Scatter, not even Mana Leak.
We agree they want to have a catalog of reprint viable options. We disagree that those can or should be Modern relevant. They wont be, 99% of the time.
That's kind of why I'm thinking wizards might make a move to try and build a new non-rotating format. Also one big misunderstanding is what would really happen if they did do this. While I'm mentioning how they would go about ending modern if they intended to do it, it's far more likely they end legacy first and just go casual -> modern (replaces legacy) -> new non-rotating format -> standard, with priorities going from right to left. The format that is going to lose any hope of seeing strictly format specific reprints would be legacy.
If they build a baseline set of reprintable cards that every player owns, they have a format that is price managed for non-rotating, but is engineered to not be very enduring so people will go play standard to get some new thrills. Basically, that new format will probably have rules like "only evergreen mechanics are legal" or along those lines to prevent mad synergy issues like with dredge or delve.
Thing is, nothing, and I mean NOTHING, needs to change.
Legacy? What support does it get as is? Legacy cards are more warping than Modern.
Modern. Nothing needs to change. The format THRIVES, and Wizards has doubled down on that with their backpedal on GP and PT Modern event counts.
Standard. Its...Standard. If one likes to play a limited number of archetypes, with weaker cards...its there.
Limited/Commander/Kitchen Table - Nothing needs to change, these players will and do play with stuff we would put in recycling bins and seemingly like that.
Not only is there no need that I can see for a new format, but what purpose would it serve Wizards? They would STILL want people playing Standard (or Limited if we are honest!) above all else.
Modern doesn't sell packs and neither would the new format directly do it, but if they can indirectly encourage people to spend more on packs they WILL do it. That is why they would start a new format from a financial perspective. Give people that affordable constructed format they can carefully maintain, but prevent from being too exciting and have too many synergies. Again, it's one route they can take, but there are others as well. I think that wizards will likely do it simply because they already see three things indicating that a middle of the road competitive format is needed to help keep players playing the game and keeping interest up: Pauper, budget modern, and frontier.
It's not about what the players think in the end. It's about what makes them money.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A friend and I were just looking up her prices last night since I told him that I saw a Judge Promo on FB being sold for $16 (actually was wrong; it was Defense of the Heart). He didn't believe me. He was right. I actually had not used mine much since Summer Bloom was banned, although I run 2 in Amulet Titan, which I don't play often.
I agree that it's probably a buyout, perhaps spurned by Todd Steven's Value Town deck.
After watching the SCG tournament from Twitch last week, I am impressed that Ramunap Excavator did a good job in Modern.
I was thinking that this is perhaps the way I should follow to improve my Knight company deck, as a result, I need some extra copies of Azusa, Lost but Seeking.
I ordered a playset of Azusa (judge promo) from SCG, 45$ each last Monday. Now it seems to me that there are other people thinking the same thing as me and drive the buyout.
A friend and I were just looking up her prices last night since I told him that I saw a Judge Promo on FB being sold for $16 (actually was wrong; it was Defense of the Heart). He didn't believe me. He was right. I actually had not used mine much since Summer Bloom was banned, although I run 2 in Amulet Titan, which I don't play often.
I agree that it's probably a buyout, perhaps spurned by Todd Steven's Value Town deck.
After watching the SCG tournament from Twitch last week, I am impressed that Ramunap Excavator did a good job in Modern.
I was thinking that this is perhaps the way I should follow to improve my Knight company deck, as a result, I need some extra copies of Azusa, Lost but Seeking.
I ordered a playset of Azusa (judge promo) from SCG, 45$ each last Monday. Now it seems to me that there are other people thinking the same thing as me and drive the buyout.
I'm hoping we see a new printing of her soon, actually. The Judge Promo art is far superior to the original and that one is the one that is the hardest to find. Now it's up to I think 90 usd assuming one can find a copy somewhere.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm not arguing to argue. You are saying they want to be able to print Modern cards in Standard. I'm saying they want to print 'Eternally Standard' level cards in Standard.
Your point is relevant to Standard, and a future format which doesnt exist. They want to be able to lean on Shock (then again look at the last Top 8 for Standard lol) and other lesser versions of Cards to have a set of staples they are comfortable with. No argument there from me.
The point we differ on, is that you think they want Modern level cards to reprint in Standard, when...thats pretty pointless if you have Masters sets you can literally load up with value, and print money with.
(Note to Mods: This is all relevant to Price, it is about the reprint paths Wizards chooses)
This part here.
Generic cards that can be skinned to whatever setting they are printing solves a lot of problems the company is having at the moment and has positive implications for modern.
Is right, up to the 'positive implications for modern'.
Print shock in every set from now till the end of time, its still not Bolt, and its still draft chaff as far as Modern is concerned, just like every other 'likely reprint' they would put in Standard.
Until they start putting Goyf, Bob, Noble, and the like into Standard sets you are just off target. They are talking about cards like Shock not Lightning Bolt, cards like Essence Scatter, not even Mana Leak.
We agree they want to have a catalog of reprint viable options. We disagree that those can or should be Modern relevant. They wont be, 99% of the time.
That's kind of why I'm thinking wizards might make a move to try and build a new non-rotating format. Also one big misunderstanding is what would really happen if they did do this. While I'm mentioning how they would go about ending modern if they intended to do it, it's far more likely they end legacy first and just go casual -> modern (replaces legacy) -> new non-rotating format -> standard, with priorities going from right to left. The format that is going to lose any hope of seeing strictly format specific reprints would be legacy.
If they build a baseline set of reprintable cards that every player owns, they have a format that is price managed for non-rotating, but is engineered to not be very enduring so people will go play standard to get some new thrills. Basically, that new format will probably have rules like "only evergreen mechanics are legal" or along those lines to prevent mad synergy issues like with dredge or delve.
Thing is, nothing, and I mean NOTHING, needs to change.
Legacy? What support does it get as is? Legacy cards are more warping than Modern.
Modern. Nothing needs to change. The format THRIVES, and Wizards has doubled down on that with their backpedal on GP and PT Modern event counts.
Standard. Its...Standard. If one likes to play a limited number of archetypes, with weaker cards...its there.
Limited/Commander/Kitchen Table - Nothing needs to change, these players will and do play with stuff we would put in recycling bins and seemingly like that.
Not only is there no need that I can see for a new format, but what purpose would it serve Wizards? They would STILL want people playing Standard (or Limited if we are honest!) above all else.
Modern doesn't sell packs and neither would the new format directly do it, but if they can indirectly encourage people to spend more on packs they WILL do it. That is why they would start a new format from a financial perspective. Give people that affordable constructed format they can carefully maintain, but prevent from being too exciting and have too many synergies. Again, it's one route they can take, but there are others as well. I think that wizards will likely do it simply because they already see three things indicating that a middle of the road competitive format is needed to help keep players playing the game and keeping interest up: Pauper, budget modern, and frontier.
It's not about what the players think in the end. It's about what makes them money.
Modern makes them money. This is why WOTC pushes this format so hard.
Why do they need to create a new format (something like....budge Modern?) and replace Modern?
"...because they already see three things indicating that a middle of the road competitive format is needed to help keep players playing the game and keeping interest up: Pauper, budget modern, and frontier. "
Where do you see such kind of indictation? Source or link, please.
The fact the formats exist and people love playing them is more than enough proof that there's a number of people not interested in paying the price to play modern, but want a non-rotating format. The trouble is that everyone is stuck trying to find an answer to the problem of time and how to deal with wizards method of printing cards. The other problem is the speculator market and the lack of controls leading to buyouts and shady business.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Pauper, Budget Modern, and Frontier are ALL because of some sick need to avoid paying Modern prices?
Come on man.
Pauper doesnt even use the Modern card pool. Its a different thing all together, and before Serum Visions was reprinted it was a $10 common so 'pauper' is...misleading.
Frontier is a marketing/corporate scheme to shift cards and isnt even a real format.
Budget Modern...isnt a thing.
People love playing LIMITED, the worst possible RNG format in existence. That has NOTHING to do with Modern. I'm more then willing to agree to disagree on things, but they need to at least make sense.
I'm not arguing to argue. You are saying they want to be able to print Modern cards in Standard. I'm saying they want to print 'Eternally Standard' level cards in Standard.
Your point is relevant to Standard, and a future format which doesnt exist. They want to be able to lean on Shock (then again look at the last Top 8 for Standard lol) and other lesser versions of Cards to have a set of staples they are comfortable with. No argument there from me.
The point we differ on, is that you think they want Modern level cards to reprint in Standard, when...thats pretty pointless if you have Masters sets you can literally load up with value, and print money with.
(Note to Mods: This is all relevant to Price, it is about the reprint paths Wizards chooses)
This part here.
Generic cards that can be skinned to whatever setting they are printing solves a lot of problems the company is having at the moment and has positive implications for modern.
Is right, up to the 'positive implications for modern'.
Print shock in every set from now till the end of time, its still not Bolt, and its still draft chaff as far as Modern is concerned, just like every other 'likely reprint' they would put in Standard.
Until they start putting Goyf, Bob, Noble, and the like into Standard sets you are just off target. They are talking about cards like Shock not Lightning Bolt, cards like Essence Scatter, not even Mana Leak.
We agree they want to have a catalog of reprint viable options. We disagree that those can or should be Modern relevant. They wont be, 99% of the time.
That's kind of why I'm thinking wizards might make a move to try and build a new non-rotating format. Also one big misunderstanding is what would really happen if they did do this. While I'm mentioning how they would go about ending modern if they intended to do it, it's far more likely they end legacy first and just go casual -> modern (replaces legacy) -> new non-rotating format -> standard, with priorities going from right to left. The format that is going to lose any hope of seeing strictly format specific reprints would be legacy.
If they build a baseline set of reprintable cards that every player owns, they have a format that is price managed for non-rotating, but is engineered to not be very enduring so people will go play standard to get some new thrills. Basically, that new format will probably have rules like "only evergreen mechanics are legal" or along those lines to prevent mad synergy issues like with dredge or delve.
Thing is, nothing, and I mean NOTHING, needs to change.
Legacy? What support does it get as is? Legacy cards are more warping than Modern.
Modern. Nothing needs to change. The format THRIVES, and Wizards has doubled down on that with their backpedal on GP and PT Modern event counts.
Standard. Its...Standard. If one likes to play a limited number of archetypes, with weaker cards...its there.
Limited/Commander/Kitchen Table - Nothing needs to change, these players will and do play with stuff we would put in recycling bins and seemingly like that.
Not only is there no need that I can see for a new format, but what purpose would it serve Wizards? They would STILL want people playing Standard (or Limited if we are honest!) above all else.
Modern doesn't sell packs and neither would the new format directly do it.
I don't even think Standard sells packs. It's mainly draft and Wal-Mart impulse buyers.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
Pauper, Budget Modern, and Frontier are ALL because of some sick need to avoid paying Modern prices?
Come on man.
Pauper doesnt even use the Modern card pool. Its a different thing all together, and before Serum Visions was reprinted it was a $10 common so 'pauper' is...misleading.
Frontier is a marketing/corporate scheme to shift cards and isnt even a real format.
Budget Modern...isnt a thing.
People love playing LIMITED, the worst possible RNG format in existence. That has NOTHING to do with Modern. I'm more then willing to agree to disagree on things, but they need to at least make sense.
Pauper is far more affordable as a non-rotating format than modern ever will be and frontier was also started because of a lack of access to the entire modern card pool. A 10 dollar common at the top end (assuming we aren't going reserved list) is still far cheaper than a 60-80 dollar mythic / rare at the top end that often requires a 4x of. Yes Surge, there is a sizable number of people that want nothing to do with modern because of the financial aspect. Those formats would not even exist today if moderns top end was the same price as paupers top end (not saying that should happen or ever happen, but just posting as an example).
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The fact the formats exist and people love playing them is more than enough proof that there's a number of people not interested in paying the price to play modern, but want a non-rotating format. The trouble is that everyone is stuck trying to find an answer to the problem of time and how to deal with wizards method of printing cards. The other problem is the speculator market and the lack of controls leading to buyouts and shady business.
If there is such a non-rotating constructed format that is can be played less expensive than Modern, it will hurt the bunsiess of Standard.
WOTC will not make Modern too cheap for such reason, and for the same reason, WOTC will not create (and push) a new cheaper non-rotating constructed format.
The fact the formats exist and people love playing them is more than enough proof that there's a number of people not interested in paying the price to play modern, but want a non-rotating format. The trouble is that everyone is stuck trying to find an answer to the problem of time and how to deal with wizards method of printing cards. The other problem is the speculator market and the lack of controls leading to buyouts and shady business.
If there is such a non-rotating constructed format that is can be played less expensive than Modern, it will hurt the bunsiess of Standard.
WOTC will not make Modern too cheap for such reason, and for the same reason, WOTC will not create (and push) a new cheaper non-rotating constructed format.
Wish it makes sense to you.
Standard doesn't get harmed by non-rotating formats regardless of price. The key to Standards success is novelty: They push new and odd mechanics every set like a hot summer movie and once people grow tired of it, they move on to play whatever non-rotating format they enjoy. Modern barely effects standard sales since most modern players don't even buy packs and wont touch a single that isn't modern level playable. The vast majority of novelty mechanics are extremely clunky and only meant for limited play so ultimately it all becomes a wash once the set rotates out. The only format that is an exception is commander because of it's very nature as a 100 card singleton casual format. Pauper, Modern, and Frontier power the secondary card market, which is the fulcrum of all issues in MtG finance.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Pauper is far more affordable as a non-rotating format than modern ever will be and frontier was also started because of a lack of access to the entire modern card pool. A 10 dollar common at the top end (assuming we aren't going reserved list) is still far cheaper than a 60-80 dollar mythic / rare at the top end that often requires a 4x of. Yes Surge, there is a sizable number of people that want nothing to do with modern because of the financial aspect. Those formats would not even exist today if moderns top end was the same price as paupers top end (not saying that should happen or ever happen, but just posting as an example).
Pauper is affordable - Yes, agreed. It also goes past Modern's card pool. You cannot therefore state it exists and is popular as a Modern alternative. Its closer to a Legacy/Vintage alternative.
Frontier is a tool to move cards in Japan. You can point to costs and mechanics, and hate cards, but at its core? Its a way to shift bulk. Everyone knows this is true. 'Lack of access'. We live in the age of the internet. I can get any card I want, in 3 weeks time. This is fact.
Fundamentally we will need to agree to disagree. Both of those formats exist to offer a DIFFERENT format, not just a budget Modern format. Its right there in the definitions of what those formats are.
Price question. Is now a good time to sell Scalding Tarn? The price has risen above 50 dollars again, and there seem to be a demand for it with the Grixis Shadow decks. Or should I wait for it to go a bit higher?
Price question. Is now a good time to sell Scalding Tarn? The price has risen above 50 dollars again, and there seem to be a demand for it with the Grixis Shadow decks. Or should I wait for it to go a bit higher?
No, keep it/them. Even if WotC mysteriously stumbles upon more MM17 product to allocate, the demand for Tarns will continue to exist and increase over time. I also think it's highly unlikely that another "wave" of MM17 (ala EMA) gets distributed because it's either still being distributed or the entire supply has already been dispersed; it has been nearly 5 months since release and you can still get a box for ~$182 w/ 2 day Prime shipping.
Also, assuming you're quoting SCG prices, the price hasn't "risen above $50". Rather, the price has been set over $50 in order to see if people will bite. Just like when you asked about Goyf, you can find Tarns for $10 less than that on TCGplayer and even cheaper on eBay. On single individual seller's (i.e. SCG/CF) prices often aren't indicators of real market supply/demand; they're indicators of said seller testing the waters and gauging what buyers are willing to pay. TCGplayer/eBay/any conglomerate of sellers is always a better gauge for supply/demand. SCG will gladly buy your Tarns for $30 and sell them for $70 in a few months.
Price question. Is now a good time to sell Scalding Tarn? The price has risen above 50 dollars again, and there seem to be a demand for it with the Grixis Shadow decks. Or should I wait for it to go a bit higher?
No, keep it/them. Even if WotC mysteriously stumbles upon more MM17 product to allocate, the demand for Tarns will continue to exist and increase over time. I also think it's highly unlikely that another "wave" of MM17 (ala EMA) gets distributed because it's either still being distributed or the entire supply has already been dispersed; it has been nearly 5 months since release and you can still get a box for ~$182 w/ 2 day Prime shipping.
Also, assuming you're quoting SCG prices, the price hasn't "risen above $50". Rather, the price has been set over $50 in order to see if people will bite. Just like when you asked about Goyf, you can find Tarns for $10 less than that on TCGplayer and even cheaper on eBay. On single individual seller's (i.e. SCG/CF) prices often aren't indicators of real market supply/demand; they're indicators of said seller testing the waters and gauging what buyers are willing to pay. TCGplayer/eBay/any conglomerate of sellers is always a better gauge for supply/demand. SCG will gladly buy your Tarns for $30 and sell them for $70 in a few months.
Ok, thanks for the reply. I guess will keep the tarns for a little longer. Have four of them, all in good condition. I did notice in local mtg facebook groups that almost no one is selling tarns.
And yes, I buy almost exclusively from SCG - the goyf I bought from them has arrived the other day, tempting to buy another one... but will wait since the price might drop a bit more.. And in my experience, prices aren't always cheaper at TCGplayer... the Thought-Knot Seers that I bought from SCG are the same price as those sold at TCG.
Price question. Is now a good time to sell Scalding Tarn? The price has risen above 50 dollars again, and there seem to be a demand for it with the Grixis Shadow decks. Or should I wait for it to go a bit higher?
No, keep it/them. Even if WotC mysteriously stumbles upon more MM17 product to allocate, the demand for Tarns will continue to exist and increase over time. I also think it's highly unlikely that another "wave" of MM17 (ala EMA) gets distributed because it's either still being distributed or the entire supply has already been dispersed; it has been nearly 5 months since release and you can still get a box for ~$182 w/ 2 day Prime shipping.
Also, assuming you're quoting SCG prices, the price hasn't "risen above $50". Rather, the price has been set over $50 in order to see if people will bite. Just like when you asked about Goyf, you can find Tarns for $10 less than that on TCGplayer and even cheaper on eBay. On single individual seller's (i.e. SCG/CF) prices often aren't indicators of real market supply/demand; they're indicators of said seller testing the waters and gauging what buyers are willing to pay. TCGplayer/eBay/any conglomerate of sellers is always a better gauge for supply/demand. SCG will gladly buy your Tarns for $30 and sell them for $70 in a few months.
Ok, thanks for the reply. I guess will keep the tarns for a little longer. Have four of them, all in good condition. I did notice in local mtg facebook groups that almost no one is selling tarns.
And yes, I buy almost exclusively from SCG - the goyf I bought from them has arrived the other day, tempting to buy another one... but will wait since the price might drop a bit more.. And in my experience, prices aren't always cheaper at TCGplayer... the Thought-Knot Seers that I bought from SCG are the same price as those sold at TCG.
Right, but TKS is ~ $6 while Goyfs are ~$66. A 5% price deviation for TKS is a paltry +/- $0.30 while Goyf would be +/- $3.30. 5% is just an arbitrary number I used for an example, but the point is higher value cards have more room to fluctuate in price and a lot of that is due to free-market pricing & competition. Not trying to single out SCG; the same thing applies to any large vendor or seller's site, especially if they buylist cards for store credit. It's really just Economics 101: competition benefits the consumer. Regardless, it never hurts to shop around if you're planning on making a large purchase. In regards to picking up another Goyf, I'd hold off and wait it out; I sold a play set when they hit the $80 mark and I'll most likely buy back in when/if they end up in the $50-$60 range. However, I'm currently not playing any decks that require Goyf and don't have any plans to at the moment. If you need them to play, it's not a bad time to buy in considering they're nearly 50% cheaper than they were this time last year. Looking at the price trends for both the MM & MM15 versions between '13 to March of this year when MM17 released, both versions saw a slow/steady decline in-between printings. Take that for what it's worth, but it has been a while since Goyf could be had for this cheap, so it's hard to imagine it dropping below $50. It might even work out in your favor if you decide to continue picking them up one at a time; that way you wouldn't be going all in at $X when they dip down to $Y a few weeks later.
I want to play some eldrazi deck and was planning on buying the most useful ones (matter reshaper, TKS, smasher and endbringer) but I don't know if I should buy now that they aren't being used in standard at all or maybe wait a bit more after rotation. What do you guys recommend? I don't mind waiting a while to get them.
Well, they're not gonna tank much harder after rotation - like you said, they're not being played in Standard. Modern and Legacy are keeping their prices where they are and they're not exactly expensive cards, all things considered.
Price question. Is now a good time to sell Scalding Tarn? The price has risen above 50 dollars again, and there seem to be a demand for it with the Grixis Shadow decks. Or should I wait for it to go a bit higher?
No, keep it/them. Even if WotC mysteriously stumbles upon more MM17 product to allocate, the demand for Tarns will continue to exist and increase over time. I also think it's highly unlikely that another "wave" of MM17 (ala EMA) gets distributed because it's either still being distributed or the entire supply has already been dispersed; it has been nearly 5 months since release and you can still get a box for ~$182 w/ 2 day Prime shipping.
Also, assuming you're quoting SCG prices, the price hasn't "risen above $50". Rather, the price has been set over $50 in order to see if people will bite. Just like when you asked about Goyf, you can find Tarns for $10 less than that on TCGplayer and even cheaper on eBay. On single individual seller's (i.e. SCG/CF) prices often aren't indicators of real market supply/demand; they're indicators of said seller testing the waters and gauging what buyers are willing to pay. TCGplayer/eBay/any conglomerate of sellers is always a better gauge for supply/demand. SCG will gladly buy your Tarns for $30 and sell them for $70 in a few months.
Ok, thanks for the reply. I guess will keep the tarns for a little longer. Have four of them, all in good condition. I did notice in local mtg facebook groups that almost no one is selling tarns.
And yes, I buy almost exclusively from SCG - the goyf I bought from them has arrived the other day, tempting to buy another one... but will wait since the price might drop a bit more.. And in my experience, prices aren't always cheaper at TCGplayer... the Thought-Knot Seers that I bought from SCG are the same price as those sold at TCG.
Right, but TKS is ~ $6 while Goyfs are ~$66. A 5% price deviation for TKS is a paltry +/- $0.30 while Goyf would be +/- $3.30. 5% is just an arbitrary number I used for an example, but the point is higher value cards have more room to fluctuate in price and a lot of that is due to free-market pricing & competition. Not trying to single out SCG; the same thing applies to any large vendor or seller's site, especially if they buylist cards for store credit. It's really just Economics 101: competition benefits the consumer. Regardless, it never hurts to shop around if you're planning on making a large purchase. In regards to picking up another Goyf, I'd hold off and wait it out; I sold a play set when they hit the $80 mark and I'll most likely buy back in when/if they end up in the $50-$60 range. However, I'm currently not playing any decks that require Goyf and don't have any plans to at the moment. If you need them to play, it's not a bad time to buy in considering they're nearly 50% cheaper than they were this time last year. Looking at the price trends for both the MM & MM15 versions between '13 to March of this year when MM17 released, both versions saw a slow/steady decline in-between printings. Take that for what it's worth, but it has been a while since Goyf could be had for this cheap, so it's hard to imagine it dropping below $50. It might even work out in your favor if you decide to continue picking them up one at a time; that way you wouldn't be going all in at $X when they dip down to $Y a few weeks later.
Hmm, nice detailed explanation. Thanks again. Well, the money would come on Aug 10... so still plenty of time to decide to buy or not. My deck needs at least one more goyf to function properly...
_________________________________________________________
On another topic. it's a bit worrying that Ramunap Excavator may start to rise in price. It seems some Modern decks are starting to get good results with it. Still no extra money to buy a playset of Excavators.... since I'm concentrating funds on getting a goyf, and some Blooming Marsh.
Goyf is going to be far more stable over the next month than Ramunap will be. If you need them, lock into them now, before the price jumps. You can always save and get the goyfs a month later. That might not be the case for the Rams.
Goyf is going to be far more stable over the next month than Ramunap will be. If you need them, lock into them now, before the price jumps. You can always save and get the goyfs a month later. That might not be the case for the Rams.
Are you really sure that the price is just going to jump? I'd imagine it would steadily increase like Collective Brutality did since it doesn't see a lot of play in standard and a lot of packs are being opened right now. I've seen some Gitrog decks trying it, but given how Ixalan is coming up around the bend those standard lands decks are going to rotate out, making them not exactly popular.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I want to play some eldrazi deck and was planning on buying the most useful ones (matter reshaper, TKS, smasher and endbringer) but I don't know if I should buy now that they aren't being used in standard at all or maybe wait a bit more after rotation. What do you guys recommend? I don't mind waiting a while to get them.
Well, they're not gonna tank much harder after rotation - like you said, they're not being played in Standard. Modern and Legacy are keeping their prices where they are and they're not exactly expensive cards, all things considered.
Thanks for the advice. What do you think of Ulamog or Emrakul? I think Emrakul has potential in a lot of modern, vintage and commander brews, so I guess it could raise. Not really sure about Ulamog though, I don't know what to think of it's price.
If you need them for your decks, just get them. They're pretty stable and not debilitatingly expensive - unless you're looking at spec targets, in which case I'd obviously steer clear of these cards.
Goyf is going to be far more stable over the next month than Ramunap will be. If you need them, lock into them now, before the price jumps. You can always save and get the goyfs a month later. That might not be the case for the Rams.
Thanks, but I already have it planned. Will order the goyf and blooming marsh at SCG, then just buy Ramunaps from local Standard players who only play Standard. Goyf really has the higher priority to me now, since it's needed by the deck that I use at FNM. The Ramunaps are only for storing at the binder.
Goyf is going to be far more stable over the next month than Ramunap will be. If you need them, lock into them now, before the price jumps. You can always save and get the goyfs a month later. That might not be the case for the Rams.
Thanks, but I already have it planned. Will order the goyf and blooming marsh at SCG, then just buy Ramunaps from local Standard players who only play Standard. Goyf really has the higher priority to me now, since it's needed by the deck that I use at FNM. The Ramunaps are only for storing at the binder.
Just as a heads up, the cheapest Tarmo on SCG is $75, while the cheapest copies on TCG Player are $64 and $63 on eBay (usually with free shipping and buyer protection), or about a ~$45 savings on a playset. I don't mean to intrude too much on personal buying preferences, but I have been buying and selling on eBay for nearly 20 years and have at least a couple thousand dollars flow through TCG Player. They are great and reputable middle-men sellers with excellent service guarantees and support for buyers. At least for me, it's difficult to justify paying top dollar (and often tax and shipping) from chain retailers when these options are readily available.
Modern doesn't sell packs and neither would the new format directly do it, but if they can indirectly encourage people to spend more on packs they WILL do it. That is why they would start a new format from a financial perspective. Give people that affordable constructed format they can carefully maintain, but prevent from being too exciting and have too many synergies. Again, it's one route they can take, but there are others as well. I think that wizards will likely do it simply because they already see three things indicating that a middle of the road competitive format is needed to help keep players playing the game and keeping interest up: Pauper, budget modern, and frontier.
It's not about what the players think in the end. It's about what makes them money.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
After watching the SCG tournament from Twitch last week, I am impressed that Ramunap Excavator did a good job in Modern.
I was thinking that this is perhaps the way I should follow to improve my Knight company deck, as a result, I need some extra copies of Azusa, Lost but Seeking.
I ordered a playset of Azusa (judge promo) from SCG, 45$ each last Monday. Now it seems to me that there are other people thinking the same thing as me and drive the buyout.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
I'm hoping we see a new printing of her soon, actually. The Judge Promo art is far superior to the original and that one is the one that is the hardest to find. Now it's up to I think 90 usd assuming one can find a copy somewhere.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Modern makes them money. This is why WOTC pushes this format so hard.
Why do they need to create a new format (something like....budge Modern?) and replace Modern?
"...because they already see three things indicating that a middle of the road competitive format is needed to help keep players playing the game and keeping interest up: Pauper, budget modern, and frontier. "
Where do you see such kind of indictation? Source or link, please.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Come on man.
Pauper doesnt even use the Modern card pool. Its a different thing all together, and before Serum Visions was reprinted it was a $10 common so 'pauper' is...misleading.
Frontier is a marketing/corporate scheme to shift cards and isnt even a real format.
Budget Modern...isnt a thing.
People love playing LIMITED, the worst possible RNG format in existence. That has NOTHING to do with Modern. I'm more then willing to agree to disagree on things, but they need to at least make sense.
Spirits
I don't even think Standard sells packs. It's mainly draft and Wal-Mart impulse buyers.
Pauper is far more affordable as a non-rotating format than modern ever will be and frontier was also started because of a lack of access to the entire modern card pool. A 10 dollar common at the top end (assuming we aren't going reserved list) is still far cheaper than a 60-80 dollar mythic / rare at the top end that often requires a 4x of. Yes Surge, there is a sizable number of people that want nothing to do with modern because of the financial aspect. Those formats would not even exist today if moderns top end was the same price as paupers top end (not saying that should happen or ever happen, but just posting as an example).
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If there is such a non-rotating constructed format that is can be played less expensive than Modern, it will hurt the bunsiess of Standard.
WOTC will not make Modern too cheap for such reason, and for the same reason, WOTC will not create (and push) a new cheaper non-rotating constructed format.
Wish it makes sense to you.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
There is a Wizard approved method for reprints (Masters sets) and a goal that Standard cards are used in Modern decks.
Thats it. Both of those conditions exist, and there is no need to change it as those 2 things work to keep the cost of Modern manageable.
Spirits
Standard doesn't get harmed by non-rotating formats regardless of price. The key to Standards success is novelty: They push new and odd mechanics every set like a hot summer movie and once people grow tired of it, they move on to play whatever non-rotating format they enjoy. Modern barely effects standard sales since most modern players don't even buy packs and wont touch a single that isn't modern level playable. The vast majority of novelty mechanics are extremely clunky and only meant for limited play so ultimately it all becomes a wash once the set rotates out. The only format that is an exception is commander because of it's very nature as a 100 card singleton casual format. Pauper, Modern, and Frontier power the secondary card market, which is the fulcrum of all issues in MtG finance.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Pauper is affordable - Yes, agreed. It also goes past Modern's card pool. You cannot therefore state it exists and is popular as a Modern alternative. Its closer to a Legacy/Vintage alternative.
Frontier is a tool to move cards in Japan. You can point to costs and mechanics, and hate cards, but at its core? Its a way to shift bulk. Everyone knows this is true. 'Lack of access'. We live in the age of the internet. I can get any card I want, in 3 weeks time. This is fact.
Fundamentally we will need to agree to disagree. Both of those formats exist to offer a DIFFERENT format, not just a budget Modern format. Its right there in the definitions of what those formats are.
Spirits
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
No, keep it/them. Even if WotC mysteriously stumbles upon more MM17 product to allocate, the demand for Tarns will continue to exist and increase over time. I also think it's highly unlikely that another "wave" of MM17 (ala EMA) gets distributed because it's either still being distributed or the entire supply has already been dispersed; it has been nearly 5 months since release and you can still get a box for ~$182 w/ 2 day Prime shipping.
Also, assuming you're quoting SCG prices, the price hasn't "risen above $50". Rather, the price has been set over $50 in order to see if people will bite. Just like when you asked about Goyf, you can find Tarns for $10 less than that on TCGplayer and even cheaper on eBay. On single individual seller's (i.e. SCG/CF) prices often aren't indicators of real market supply/demand; they're indicators of said seller testing the waters and gauging what buyers are willing to pay. TCGplayer/eBay/any conglomerate of sellers is always a better gauge for supply/demand. SCG will gladly buy your Tarns for $30 and sell them for $70 in a few months.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Ok, thanks for the reply. I guess will keep the tarns for a little longer. Have four of them, all in good condition. I did notice in local mtg facebook groups that almost no one is selling tarns.
And yes, I buy almost exclusively from SCG - the goyf I bought from them has arrived the other day, tempting to buy another one... but will wait since the price might drop a bit more.. And in my experience, prices aren't always cheaper at TCGplayer... the Thought-Knot Seers that I bought from SCG are the same price as those sold at TCG.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Right, but TKS is ~ $6 while Goyfs are ~$66. A 5% price deviation for TKS is a paltry +/- $0.30 while Goyf would be +/- $3.30. 5% is just an arbitrary number I used for an example, but the point is higher value cards have more room to fluctuate in price and a lot of that is due to free-market pricing & competition. Not trying to single out SCG; the same thing applies to any large vendor or seller's site, especially if they buylist cards for store credit. It's really just Economics 101: competition benefits the consumer. Regardless, it never hurts to shop around if you're planning on making a large purchase. In regards to picking up another Goyf, I'd hold off and wait it out; I sold a play set when they hit the $80 mark and I'll most likely buy back in when/if they end up in the $50-$60 range. However, I'm currently not playing any decks that require Goyf and don't have any plans to at the moment. If you need them to play, it's not a bad time to buy in considering they're nearly 50% cheaper than they were this time last year. Looking at the price trends for both the MM & MM15 versions between '13 to March of this year when MM17 released, both versions saw a slow/steady decline in-between printings. Take that for what it's worth, but it has been a while since Goyf could be had for this cheap, so it's hard to imagine it dropping below $50. It might even work out in your favor if you decide to continue picking them up one at a time; that way you wouldn't be going all in at $X when they dip down to $Y a few weeks later.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Well, they're not gonna tank much harder after rotation - like you said, they're not being played in Standard. Modern and Legacy are keeping their prices where they are and they're not exactly expensive cards, all things considered.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Hmm, nice detailed explanation. Thanks again. Well, the money would come on Aug 10... so still plenty of time to decide to buy or not. My deck needs at least one more goyf to function properly...
_________________________________________________________
On another topic. it's a bit worrying that Ramunap Excavator may start to rise in price. It seems some Modern decks are starting to get good results with it. Still no extra money to buy a playset of Excavators.... since I'm concentrating funds on getting a goyf, and some Blooming Marsh.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Goyf is going to be far more stable over the next month than Ramunap will be. If you need them, lock into them now, before the price jumps. You can always save and get the goyfs a month later. That might not be the case for the Rams.
Are you really sure that the price is just going to jump? I'd imagine it would steadily increase like Collective Brutality did since it doesn't see a lot of play in standard and a lot of packs are being opened right now. I've seen some Gitrog decks trying it, but given how Ixalan is coming up around the bend those standard lands decks are going to rotate out, making them not exactly popular.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If you need them for your decks, just get them. They're pretty stable and not debilitatingly expensive - unless you're looking at spec targets, in which case I'd obviously steer clear of these cards.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Thanks, but I already have it planned. Will order the goyf and blooming marsh at SCG, then just buy Ramunaps from local Standard players who only play Standard. Goyf really has the higher priority to me now, since it's needed by the deck that I use at FNM. The Ramunaps are only for storing at the binder.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Just as a heads up, the cheapest Tarmo on SCG is $75, while the cheapest copies on TCG Player are $64 and $63 on eBay (usually with free shipping and buyer protection), or about a ~$45 savings on a playset. I don't mean to intrude too much on personal buying preferences, but I have been buying and selling on eBay for nearly 20 years and have at least a couple thousand dollars flow through TCG Player. They are great and reputable middle-men sellers with excellent service guarantees and support for buyers. At least for me, it's difficult to justify paying top dollar (and often tax and shipping) from chain retailers when these options are readily available.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate