So FYI, there are some rumblings of a run on Living End with the first round of Amonkhet spoilers. It's an old-ish-for-Modern Rare that's a lynchpin card in a semi-competitive Modern deck, and now that Cycling is confirmed as a set mechanic, it could easily gain a bunch of new toys to play with.
If anyone was thinking about buying into the deck, you may have a shortened window for it.
I could see Zen fetches in the fall set, as BFZ rotates. The only lands it would fetch are basics, so it would be fine, and would re-energize the Standard format, and game in general at a time it desperately needs it.
Fetches were not a problem until they created a new set of named lands that the fetches could target.
Printing the fetches asap also allows them to set a line for a new, fetch free format.
I would have to find the place Maro said it, if they do another format, they want it fetch free. Many felt this was aimed at a Frontier type format moved past Khans to remove the fetches. That would lead me to believe we wont see fetches in a Standard set for some time, if ever again.
I could see Zen fetches in the fall set, as BFZ rotates. The only lands it would fetch are basics, so it would be fine, and would re-energize the Standard format, and game in general at a time it desperately needs it.
Fetches were not a problem until they created a new set of named lands that the fetches could target.
Printing the fetches asap also allows them to set a line for a new, fetch free format.
I would have to find the place Maro said it, if they do another format, they want it fetch free. Many felt this was aimed at a Frontier type format moved past Khans to remove the fetches. That would lead me to believe we wont see fetches in a Standard set for some time, if ever again.
I agree that it's unlikely we'll see Zendikar Fetches in Standard again, but even if it's a widely-held opinion (don't know if it's just MaRo or not), I don't think it precludes Standard Zen Fetches ever showing back up. If Design decides that's the right thing for Standard, there's the out that the new format could just preemptively ban Fetches.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I actually agree with you, but it's pretty clear these fetches need a standard printing to drive the prices down.
Let's not lose perspective on the effect it already had on prices... They may not hold for long, but the drop is fairly significant across the board.
It is not enough. We need a price drop like we saw with onslaught fetches, where Delta went from $94 to $13.50. This would make the most important Modern manabase accessible to interested players, and keep the prices rather low for a long enough time to allow for a new format to be planned, announced and take root.
I could see Zen fetches in the fall set, as BFZ rotates. The only lands it would fetch are basics, so it would be fine, and would re-energize the Standard format, and game in general at a time it desperately needs it.
Fetches were not a problem until they created a new set of named lands that the fetches could target.
Printing the fetches asap also allows them to set a line for a new, fetch free format.
I would have to find the place Maro said it, if they do another format, they want it fetch free. Many felt this was aimed at a Frontier type format moved past Khans to remove the fetches. That would lead me to believe we wont see fetches in a Standard set for some time, if ever again.
I'm aware of this, that's why I said they need to print them asap, so WOTC can set a line for a new format.
I agree that it's unlikely we'll see Zendikar Fetches in Standard again, but even if it's a widely-held opinion (don't know if it's just MaRo or not), I don't think it precludes Standard Zen Fetches ever showing back up. If Design decides that's the right thing for Standard, there's the out that the new format could just preemptively ban Fetches.
This is an option I see as very doable, but I think WOTC will want to avoid it, because A: it is confusing to new players, and B: players will always see the fetches as something that was taken away from them. If the fetches were just never included in the new legal sets, it's a lot less headaches and complaints for Wizards. Look how much crap they deal with on a daily basis in re: reserve list, and the admission that REPRINT DAMNATION became a tiresome meme. Do they want to deal with a new meme for the next X years? C'MON, UNBAN FETCHES ALREADY! I don't think so. Easier to just never put them in a (next format) legal set.
I'm aware of this, that's why I said they need to print them asap, so WOTC can set a line for a new format.
You are assuming they have not already decided on a set to start it at.
Reprinting them now, would push off said new format years into the future.
We need a price drop like we saw with onslaught fetches.
I disagree. How long was Legacy going strong with fetches much more expensive then the Zen ones were/are.
You also forget Wotc felt it was a mistake to put the ONS fetches back in Standard. That alone makes me feel we wont ever see Zen fetches in Standard again.
Quote from Ironhorse75 »
Do we have any logical reasoning as to why Tarn is still leader of the pack?
Multiformat staple. Just because the demand out of Modern is low, doesnt mean its low coming from Vintage, Legacy, and EDH. People tend to forget, these are not just 'Modern' cards.
I would have to find the place Maro said it, if they do another format, they want it fetch free. Many felt this was aimed at a Frontier type format moved past Khans to remove the fetches. That would lead me to believe we wont see fetches in a Standard set for some time, if ever again.
Yeah, I really don't see them ever printing fetches in Standard again. If / when they do their own version of Frontiers Format, it'll likely Start at Origins and go forward. Starting there immediately makes it it's own distinct format in comparison to both Modern and Standard. In a few years, with a few more sets printed, it wouldn't just be Extended Standard. And without fetches, it wouldn't be as close to Modern. I'd actually be kinda interested in seeing how that format would develop and evolve.
So anyone have any price movement updates on fetches? Just since yesterday it looks like TCG supply has dropped about 30% and the price has gone up about $3.00. This was more from quick looks than any compiled data though. Curious if anyone has better info. I think I'm going to go ahead and buy my remaining tarns tonight.
Scalding Tarn is down to 180 listings, from 224 on Sunday.
That's well under 1000 playsets, considering only 21 sellers have a playset or more available. That doesn't sound like a whole lot, with how many players are out there. Seems to me the window of opportunity is slamming shut, and the chances of a run/buyout with attendant spike are inching closer to 'Likely'.
Another interesting point: MM17 Snapcaster Mage has more value than Innistrad printing. There's a couple factors at play here - how much Innistrad is available compared to MM17 in terms of total print run? Also, how much of the popularity of MM17 printing is due to art vs hologram?
Any way you slice it, it's one of the first, if not the first, card that has a reprint more valuable than the original. Since I've only played since MM15 release, I'm sure others will inform me of examples I am unaware of.
It is not enough. We need a price drop like we saw with onslaught fetches, where Delta went from $94 to $13.50. This would make the most important Modern manabase accessible to interested players, and keep the prices rather low for a long enough time to allow for a new format to be planned, announced and take root.
That would be nice. But a lot of things would be nice. I wish Liliana and Tarmogoyf were $13.50 each so I could reasonably build Jund or Abzan, but that's just not the case. Prices may not be ideal, but they are considerably lower than what they were a month ago. If someone absolutely needs them, this is the best price they have been in a long time. If this is too expensive still, the Khans fetches will provide 80-90% of the power for 30% of the cost.
Scalding Tarn is down to 180 listings, from 224 on Sunday.
That's well under 1000 playsets, considering only 21 sellers have a playset or more available. That doesn't sound like a whole lot, with how many players are out there. Seems to me the window of opportunity is slamming shut, and the chances of a run/buyout with attendant spike are inching closer to 'Likely'.
If you want Tarns, you'd best buy ASAP.
People could also just be not listing them. If you don't NEED to sell them, why would you sell them now? I opened one in a draft and have four other regular Zen copies leftover from when I got my foils. I'm not selling them because I don't need the money asap. I will sell them eventually, but there's little motivation to sell a card that keeps climbing. This lack of listings is not solely a result of low supply, but of people unwilling or unable to sell. So yes, from a buyer's perspective, buying sooner rather than later is the best idea. Actually, buying last week was your best idea. I purchased my foils within 48 hours of release day when they hit nearly the absolute floor.
There are only about 60 non foil copies of the MM17 scalding tarn left on TCGplayer, and 40 of those are listed at $60 a piece. Just bought my last 3 off amazon for $48 each and Starcitygames actually has the lowest price at $45.
I expect we will see starcities 21 copies vanish overnight and then reappear tomorrow at $50 while tcg prices start to climb closer to $60.
Another interesting point: MM17 Snapcaster Mage has more value than Innistrad printing. There's a couple factors at play here - how much Innistrad is available compared to MM17 in terms of total print run? Also, how much of the popularity of MM17 printing is due to art vs hologram?
Any way you slice it, it's one of the first, if not the first, card that has a reprint more valuable than the original. Since I've only played since MM15 release, I'm sure others will inform me of examples I am unaware of.
I'm assuming it's because snapcaster is usually played a said 4 of. A lot of people are opening one or two in sealed and want a playset of the same copy. So the people who are buying the older copies are mostly people who are just taking advantage of lower card prices and aren't opening packs. If you look at cards that are a one of or see little play like linvala or damnation the original copies are still more valuable than the new versions.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
It's also at Mythic rarity in MM3. It's Innistrad print has it at Rare and Innistrad, despite being and older set obviously, has a LOT more copies of Snapcaster Mage. I think people are realizing this.
I personally own 4 Innistrad Snapcaster Mage, 4 foil Innistrad Snapcaster Mage, and 2 RPTQ promos, and I still am a bit interested getting a play set of the "new art" Snappies. It's just a wanted card; for many various reasons, playing them probably the biggest one.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
It's also at Mythic rarity in MM3. It's Innistrad print has it at Rare and Innistrad, despite being and older set obviously, has a LOT more copies of Snapcaster Mage. I think people are realizing this.
I personally own 4 Innistrad Snapcaster Mage, 4 foil Innistrad Snapcaster Mage, and 2 RPTQ promos, and I still am a bit interested getting a play set of the "new art" Snappies. It's just a wanted card; for many various reasons, playing them probably the biggest one.
Very sound logic; this is how I'm interpreting it. In the long run, I'm banking on the Innistrad edition commanding the highest price when it comes to foil copies.
IMNSHO, massive mistake. These are ugly, have illegal borders (pending incoming rule change) look clunky, but most important - there is NOTHING identifiable. Remember, these are English only, even in foreign editions of Amnkhet. So, if you are Japanese, and have no English language skills, you have no idea what you pulled. The art is different, and the letters are hard for me, a native English speaker, to read. I have little hope that a non-English speaking player can figure out what letters those symbols are supposed to represent.
IMNSHO, massive mistake. These are ugly, have illegal borders (pending incoming rule change) look clunky, but most important - there is NOTHING identifiable. Remember, these are English only, even in foreign editions of Amnkhet. So, if you are Japanese, and have no English language skills, you have no idea what you pulled. The art is different, and the letters are hard for me, a native English speaker, to read. I have little hope that a non-English speaking player can figure out what letters those symbols are supposed to represent.
I think they all look awesome, especially the aven mindcdnsor. It is going to look gorgeous in foil.
That said, as far as playability they all look terrible. As you already noted, they are hard enough for me to figure out what they are as a native English speaker who has played the game for 20 years and therefore recognizes the cards. I can't imagine trying to figure out what the hell is going on for a new player or foreign player.
Either way though I think calling them a mistake isn't fair. These are meant to be a fun way for them to sell more packs and VERY slowly help reprints on older cards. It isn't meant to reduce the price of them, just allow a few more to creep into the market to keep up with the growing player base.
I was wondering why the foil multiplier on some cards is so small.
Example: Noble Hierarch is around $60 non-foil for either printing, but the original Conflux foils are around $68. Foil MM2 bobs are basically the same price as non-foils, but I assume that one is due to the general dislike of MM2 foiling.
With Noble though, does this mean the non-foil price is too high, the foil price is too low, that the set has a poor foiling process (Afaik Conflux foiling is fine) or that another printing has so much preference (In this case the Judge Promo) that is completely tanks the price of other foils?
Mostly curious as someone new to following price trends and trying to buy things at the right time.
I was wondering why the foil multiplier on some cards is so small.
Example: Noble Hierarch is around $60 non-foil for either printing, but the original Conflux foils are around $68. Foil MM2 bobs are basically the same price as non-foils, but I assume that one is due to the general dislike of MM2 foiling.
With Noble though, does this mean the non-foil price is too high, the foil price is too low, that the set has a poor foiling process (Afaik Conflux foiling is fine) or that another printing has so much preference (In this case the Judge Promo) that is completely tanks the price of other foils?
Mostly curious as someone new to following price trends and trying to buy things at the right time.
Conflux is kind of an outlier, in the alara block they did all foil packs that were sold at a higher price which resulted in foils from the block being worth significantly less.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
Conflux is kind of an outlier, in the alara block they did all foil packs that were sold at a higher price which resulted in foils from the block being worth significantly less.
Ah okay, I wasn't aware of that, makes perfect sense! Glad to hear it isn't an issue with the foiling.
IMNSHO, massive mistake. These are ugly, have illegal borders (pending incoming rule change) look clunky, but most important - there is NOTHING identifiable. Remember, these are English only, even in foreign editions of Amnkhet. So, if you are Japanese, and have no English language skills, you have no idea what you pulled. The art is different, and the letters are hard for me, a native English speaker, to read. I have little hope that a non-English speaking player can figure out what letters those symbols are supposed to represent.
You know what would have been cool?
Leave the name, casting cost, and type normal, and have the text in hieroglyphics.
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pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
So, I have it figured out. These Amonkhet Invocations are a massive April Fools joke by Wizards. Come Friday, they will reveal the real cards, by which time it will be April Fool's in some parts of the world.
In the meantime, I reckon they are in tears laughing at some of these reactions on reddit, tumblr and twitter.
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That shortened window ended up being about 8 hours.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I would have to find the place Maro said it, if they do another format, they want it fetch free. Many felt this was aimed at a Frontier type format moved past Khans to remove the fetches. That would lead me to believe we wont see fetches in a Standard set for some time, if ever again.
I agree that it's unlikely we'll see Zendikar Fetches in Standard again, but even if it's a widely-held opinion (don't know if it's just MaRo or not), I don't think it precludes Standard Zen Fetches ever showing back up. If Design decides that's the right thing for Standard, there's the out that the new format could just preemptively ban Fetches.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
The same 12 months we didn't have Twin, Jund remained tier 1.
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
It is not enough. We need a price drop like we saw with onslaught fetches, where Delta went from $94 to $13.50. This would make the most important Modern manabase accessible to interested players, and keep the prices rather low for a long enough time to allow for a new format to be planned, announced and take root.
I'm aware of this, that's why I said they need to print them asap, so WOTC can set a line for a new format.
This is an option I see as very doable, but I think WOTC will want to avoid it, because A: it is confusing to new players, and B: players will always see the fetches as something that was taken away from them. If the fetches were just never included in the new legal sets, it's a lot less headaches and complaints for Wizards. Look how much crap they deal with on a daily basis in re: reserve list, and the admission that REPRINT DAMNATION became a tiresome meme. Do they want to deal with a new meme for the next X years? C'MON, UNBAN FETCHES ALREADY! I don't think so. Easier to just never put them in a (next format) legal set.
You are assuming they have not already decided on a set to start it at.
Reprinting them now, would push off said new format years into the future.
I disagree. How long was Legacy going strong with fetches much more expensive then the Zen ones were/are.
You also forget Wotc felt it was a mistake to put the ONS fetches back in Standard. That alone makes me feel we wont ever see Zen fetches in Standard again.
Multiformat staple. Just because the demand out of Modern is low, doesnt mean its low coming from Vintage, Legacy, and EDH. People tend to forget, these are not just 'Modern' cards.
Yeah, I really don't see them ever printing fetches in Standard again. If / when they do their own version of Frontiers Format, it'll likely Start at Origins and go forward. Starting there immediately makes it it's own distinct format in comparison to both Modern and Standard. In a few years, with a few more sets printed, it wouldn't just be Extended Standard. And without fetches, it wouldn't be as close to Modern. I'd actually be kinda interested in seeing how that format would develop and evolve.
Six is: "We need to find the right place to bring it back, but I'm a little less optimistic. Examples: devour, ninjutsu, living weapon"
and sits between
"Level 5: We need to find the right place to bring it back, but I'm optimistic. Examples: evolve, monstrous, morbid"
and
"Level 7: It's unlikely to return, but possible if the right environment comes along. Examples: snow mana, retrace, split second"
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
That's well under 1000 playsets, considering only 21 sellers have a playset or more available. That doesn't sound like a whole lot, with how many players are out there. Seems to me the window of opportunity is slamming shut, and the chances of a run/buyout with attendant spike are inching closer to 'Likely'.
If you want Tarns, you'd best buy ASAP.
Any way you slice it, it's one of the first, if not the first, card that has a reprint more valuable than the original. Since I've only played since MM15 release, I'm sure others will inform me of examples I am unaware of.
That would be nice. But a lot of things would be nice. I wish Liliana and Tarmogoyf were $13.50 each so I could reasonably build Jund or Abzan, but that's just not the case. Prices may not be ideal, but they are considerably lower than what they were a month ago. If someone absolutely needs them, this is the best price they have been in a long time. If this is too expensive still, the Khans fetches will provide 80-90% of the power for 30% of the cost.
People could also just be not listing them. If you don't NEED to sell them, why would you sell them now? I opened one in a draft and have four other regular Zen copies leftover from when I got my foils. I'm not selling them because I don't need the money asap. I will sell them eventually, but there's little motivation to sell a card that keeps climbing. This lack of listings is not solely a result of low supply, but of people unwilling or unable to sell. So yes, from a buyer's perspective, buying sooner rather than later is the best idea. Actually, buying last week was your best idea. I purchased my foils within 48 hours of release day when they hit nearly the absolute floor.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I expect we will see starcities 21 copies vanish overnight and then reappear tomorrow at $50 while tcg prices start to climb closer to $60.
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
I personally own 4 Innistrad Snapcaster Mage, 4 foil Innistrad Snapcaster Mage, and 2 RPTQ promos, and I still am a bit interested getting a play set of the "new art" Snappies. It's just a wanted card; for many various reasons, playing them probably the biggest one.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Very sound logic; this is how I'm interpreting it. In the long run, I'm banking on the Innistrad edition commanding the highest price when it comes to foil copies.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
IMNSHO, massive mistake. These are ugly, have illegal borders (pending incoming rule change) look clunky, but most important - there is NOTHING identifiable. Remember, these are English only, even in foreign editions of Amnkhet. So, if you are Japanese, and have no English language skills, you have no idea what you pulled. The art is different, and the letters are hard for me, a native English speaker, to read. I have little hope that a non-English speaking player can figure out what letters those symbols are supposed to represent.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I think they all look awesome, especially the aven mindcdnsor. It is going to look gorgeous in foil.
That said, as far as playability they all look terrible. As you already noted, they are hard enough for me to figure out what they are as a native English speaker who has played the game for 20 years and therefore recognizes the cards. I can't imagine trying to figure out what the hell is going on for a new player or foreign player.
Either way though I think calling them a mistake isn't fair. These are meant to be a fun way for them to sell more packs and VERY slowly help reprints on older cards. It isn't meant to reduce the price of them, just allow a few more to creep into the market to keep up with the growing player base.
Example: Noble Hierarch is around $60 non-foil for either printing, but the original Conflux foils are around $68. Foil MM2 bobs are basically the same price as non-foils, but I assume that one is due to the general dislike of MM2 foiling.
With Noble though, does this mean the non-foil price is too high, the foil price is too low, that the set has a poor foiling process (Afaik Conflux foiling is fine) or that another printing has so much preference (In this case the Judge Promo) that is completely tanks the price of other foils?
Mostly curious as someone new to following price trends and trying to buy things at the right time.
Conflux is kind of an outlier, in the alara block they did all foil packs that were sold at a higher price which resulted in foils from the block being worth significantly less.
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
Ah okay, I wasn't aware of that, makes perfect sense! Glad to hear it isn't an issue with the foiling.
You know what would have been cool?
Leave the name, casting cost, and type normal, and have the text in hieroglyphics.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
In the meantime, I reckon they are in tears laughing at some of these reactions on reddit, tumblr and twitter.