I was going to buy 2 Fulminator Mage a week ago but then it spiked to 40. Now i won't buy it until it's 20 again. I'm really not interested in giving money to speculators that don't even want to play the card.
All the cards that aren't reprinted are going to spike and then rubberband back down again.
I read this comment and realized how little you actually know about the market and how it works.
Fulmanator wont see south of $30 until it gets reprinted again.
People need to realize there are levels of speculators. There are those chasing pennies, others are chasing hundreds or thousands of dollars on speculations. Other just speculate enough to keep them playing the game for free or very cheap.
Not true mate. Personally saw several people buy into modern at mm2 release. Standard costs are nearly 200 a deck, and at about 4-5 decks a year one year equals a modern deck. When staples suddenly tank, I will be able to buy bits of Jund for less than it has been in years. Modern players often have 1-2 decks and slowly build other ones if they have a limited budget. I know I personally built affinity just off MM2 trades, a deck I had not owned before. There will always be new players waiting on a chance to buy in, especially at an LGS that supports modern well. And there will always be people building a 2nd, 3,rd, 8th modern deck who will need a fulminator to finish it off.
I wasn't talking about players. I was talking about speculators that buy up cards hoping the value will increase later due to demand and scarcity and in that regard Fulminator Mage is a horrible idea. As far as players buying up pieces you got to realize these discussions are not binary. There will always be players doing some kind of purchasing and there always will be someone out there putting together Jund or some other expensive deck that uses specific cards. However, those people are not a crowd. For speculators to make the kinds of money the price spike on Fulminator Mage suggests, you'd need a ton of people suddenly trying to build Jund or whatever deck is using that card, and this speculative explosion has historically ended up being horrible for the speculators. Not to mention what do they think Wizards is going to do now that they just did buyout Fulminator and caused the price to spike? Sit on their laurels? Now they just guaranteed wizards will reprint the card somewhere in the next two years, thus killing their future money making prospects further. I mean it's great news for players, but just looking at the price history gives me a headache and drops my faith in human intelligence.
If I had fulminator mage right now I'd sell them off because they are at the peak of their possible value and aren't going higher. Heck, knowing how release is going to work that 120 usd as of this writing will probably buy a playset of any of the Zen fetches in about 60 days, and lets face it: A playset of Verdant Catacombs is going to go a lot further in a modern deck builders collection than a playset of Fulminator Mage. Not to mention even if I was using Fulminator Mage I could sell him right now and then buy him back in about 60 days to be about 5-6 dollars richer for it... per card.
cards with no substitutes like karn liberated will more likely maintain the higher price.
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pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
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3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
All the cards that aren't reprinted are going to spike and then rubberband back down again.
I read this comment and realized how little you actually know about the market and how it works.
Fulmanator wont see south of $30 until it gets reprinted again.
People need to realize there are levels of speculators. There are those chasing pennies, others are chasing hundreds or thousands of dollars on speculations. Other just speculate enough to keep them playing the game for free or very cheap.
What do you mean? I never said they would go back down to their original price, but when the spikes hit they almost always rebound back down unless the card was out of print for a long time like something from Time Spiral or Shards. Fulminator Mage is very likely to see a reprint in the future and the demand can't hold the card at it's current point unless the meta changes. The downside is that the reprint is still going to have to be Eternal or modern masters, which is bad news for players looking for a reprint in the short term.
cards with no substitutes like karn liberated will more likely maintain the higher price.
Karn is pretty much doomed to stay where he is at with Tron decks being popular and no reprinting in sight. It was a miracle we got Death's Shadow in the MM2017 set along with Basilisk's Collar.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What do you mean? I never said they would go back down to their original price, but when the spikes hit they almost always rebound back down unless the card was out of print for a long time like something from Time Spiral or Shards. Fulminator Mage is very likely to see a reprint in the future and the demand can't hold the card at it's current point unless the meta changes. The downside is that the reprint is still going to have to be Eternal or modern masters, which is bad news for players looking for a reprint in the short term.
You speak like this is something new to the game. Its not. Its been this way forever. Its not bad news for anyone. Its how the market and system works.
You dont know what cards will be reprinted. You can hope. But thats what speculation is. You stay way from cards you think will be reprinted, and you buy into those you dont think will be.
The Fulminators are definitely an artificial rise, I bought 2x Foils Fulminators on TCG for about 30 a few days ago just in case something stupid like this happened. Fulminator Mage didn't just suddenly become the new hotness or in demand, it's a middling card with sideboard use and no one's ever in a rush to buy it out.
It'll come back down after it backfires on whoever bought them out.
Wow you got a good deal. Foil Fulminator Mages were about $80 last time I checked.
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Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
What do you mean? I never said they would go back down to their original price, but when the spikes hit they almost always rebound back down unless the card was out of print for a long time like something from Time Spiral or Shards. Fulminator Mage is very likely to see a reprint in the future and the demand can't hold the card at it's current point unless the meta changes. The downside is that the reprint is still going to have to be Eternal or modern masters, which is bad news for players looking for a reprint in the short term.
You speak like this is something new to the game. Its not. Its been this way forever. Its not bad news for anyone. Its how the market and system works.
You dont know what cards will be reprinted. You can hope. But that's what speculation is. You stay way from cards you think will be reprinted, and you buy into those you dont think will be.
Erm. Are you serious? When wizards pushes out reprints, and the format in turn gets MORE expensive, it's terrible for the players, and the format in general. You call it a "market" but a market like this didn't exist 10 years ago. Speculation was much much less significant. It stands to reason that the bigger it got that this was inevitably the result, but this sort of purposeful price spiking is only good for the speculators that won. It increases the barrier for new blood to enter, and it doesn't help the players unless they suddenly decide to quit and liquidize their collection. Magic is going up and up and up in price. What goes up, must come down, and for very obvious reasons in this case.
What do you mean? I never said they would go back down to their original price, but when the spikes hit they almost always rebound back down unless the card was out of print for a long time like something from Time Spiral or Shards. Fulminator Mage is very likely to see a reprint in the future and the demand can't hold the card at it's current point unless the meta changes. The downside is that the reprint is still going to have to be Eternal or modern masters, which is bad news for players looking for a reprint in the short term.
You speak like this is something new to the game. Its not. Its been this way forever. Its not bad news for anyone. Its how the market and system works.
You dont know what cards will be reprinted. You can hope. But that's what speculation is. You stay way from cards you think will be reprinted, and you buy into those you dont think will be.
Erm. Are you serious? When wizards pushes out reprints, and the format in turn gets MORE expensive, it's terrible for the players, and the format in general. You call it a "market" but a market like this didn't exist 10 years ago. Speculation was much much less significant. It stands to reason that the bigger it got that this was inevitably the result, but this sort of purposeful price spiking is only good for the speculators that won. It increases the barrier for new blood to enter, and it doesn't help the players unless they suddenly decide to quit and liquidize their collection. Magic is going up and up and up in price. What goes up, must come down, and for very obvious reasons in this case.
What really didn't help is the opportunistic devils that took advantage of the syncing application between TCGPlayer, ebay, and amazon having issues and did some price manipulations on things like merchant scroll.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What do you mean? I never said they would go back down to their original price, but when the spikes hit they almost always rebound back down unless the card was out of print for a long time like something from Time Spiral or Shards. Fulminator Mage is very likely to see a reprint in the future and the demand can't hold the card at it's current point unless the meta changes. The downside is that the reprint is still going to have to be Eternal or modern masters, which is bad news for players looking for a reprint in the short term.
You speak like this is something new to the game. Its not. Its been this way forever. Its not bad news for anyone. Its how the market and system works.
You dont know what cards will be reprinted. You can hope. But that's what speculation is. You stay way from cards you think will be reprinted, and you buy into those you dont think will be.
Erm. Are you serious? When wizards pushes out reprints, and the format in turn gets MORE expensive, it's terrible for the players, and the format in general. You call it a "market" but a market like this didn't exist 10 years ago. Speculation was much much less significant. It stands to reason that the bigger it got that this was inevitably the result, but this sort of purposeful price spiking is only good for the speculators that won. It increases the barrier for new blood to enter, and it doesn't help the players unless they suddenly decide to quit and liquidize their collection. Magic is going up and up and up in price. What goes up, must come down, and for very obvious reasons in this case.
What really didn't help is the opportunistic devils that took advantage of the syncing application between TCGPlayer, ebay, and amazon having issues and did some price manipulations on things like merchant scroll.
Agreed, I got my 12 merchant scrolls weeks ago after seeing Gifts Storm running it without any expectation of price spikes.
What do you mean? I never said they would go back down to their original price, but when the spikes hit they almost always rebound back down unless the card was out of print for a long time like something from Time Spiral or Shards. Fulminator Mage is very likely to see a reprint in the future and the demand can't hold the card at it's current point unless the meta changes. The downside is that the reprint is still going to have to be Eternal or modern masters, which is bad news for players looking for a reprint in the short term.
You speak like this is something new to the game. Its not. Its been this way forever. Its not bad news for anyone. Its how the market and system works.
You dont know what cards will be reprinted. You can hope. But that's what speculation is. You stay way from cards you think will be reprinted, and you buy into those you dont think will be.
Erm. Are you serious? When wizards pushes out reprints, and the format in turn gets MORE expensive, it's terrible for the players, and the format in general. You call it a "market" but a market like this didn't exist 10 years ago. Speculation was much much less significant. It stands to reason that the bigger it got that this was inevitably the result, but this sort of purposeful price spiking is only good for the speculators that won. It increases the barrier for new blood to enter, and it doesn't help the players unless they suddenly decide to quit and liquidize their collection. Magic is going up and up and up in price. What goes up, must come down, and for very obvious reasons in this case.
Except attendance numbers say you are wrong. Even with the increased prices, more people play after the reprints. That alone seems to go against what you are saying.
Prices going up are only bad for a section of the player base. For the majority, price means little.
Except attendance numbers say you are wrong. Even with the increased prices, more people play after the reprints. That alone seems to go against what you are saying.
You're essentially suggesting that people are irrational.
In principle, you're suggesting that people are more sensitive to card availability than to card price. To be fair, I can imagine certain contexts in which this is true - for example, someone opens a Tarmogoyf and suddenly wants three more, despite not being willing to buy four copies before opening the first one. However, the consequence of your theory is that people are willing to pay higher prices to play than they were before, provided the card availability is higher in their local marketplace. Given the relative liquidity of internet-based markets, I have a hard time believing this, although it may be true for certain subsets of the market, like for teenagers without a credit card.
In general, it's an uphill battle to suggest that attendance goes up after prices increase. When things get more expensive, people buy fewer things. Again, I can think of circumstances in which what you're suggesting might be true, but you're going to have to do more work building your case than simply stating it as fact and walking away.
Prices going up are only bad for a section of the player base. For the majority, price means little.
I bolded the part that's unequivocally wrong. For the majority of the player base, price matters a lot, which is why the reprints are needed in the first place.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
The issue with Fulminator Mage specifically is that there are many other cards that do the same (or similar) job and there is not consensus that any one method is strictly better than another. Molten Rain may be better in Delver and Snapcaster decks, Blood Moon may be better in certain builds of certain decks, and Fulminator Mage may be better in decks with access to creature recursion/reanimation. The price spike is similar to the last one, in that everyone thought they might need them for XYZ reason (in that case Eldrazi, in this case lack of reprint), but demand fell off after Eldrazi because it wasn't a primary concern as a T0 deck anymore. Plus there are so many other budget options (or better options) depending on the deck. I predict Fulminator Mage will come back down eventually, but price memory and stubborn sellers may keep him high for a while in the short term. After everyone realized Eldrazi would be banned, Fulminator steadily fell for the next 12 months.
Except attendance numbers say you are wrong. Even with the increased prices, more people play after the reprints. That alone seems to go against what you are saying.
You're essentially suggesting that people are irrational.
In principle, you're suggesting that people are more sensitive to card availability than to card price. To be fair, I can imagine certain contexts in which this is true - for example, someone opens a Tarmogoyf and suddenly wants three more, despite not being willing to buy four copies before opening the first one. However, the consequence of your theory is that people are willing to pay higher prices to play than they were before, provided the card availability is higher in their local marketplace. Given the relative liquidity of internet-based markets, I have a hard time believing this, although it may be true for certain subsets of the market, like for teenagers without a credit card.
In general, it's an uphill battle to suggest that attendance goes up after prices increase. When things get more expensive, people buy fewer things. Again, I can think of circumstances in which what you're suggesting might be true, but you're going to have to do more work building your case than simply stating it as fact and walking away.
Prices going up are only bad for a section of the player base. For the majority, price means little.
I bolded the part that's unequivocally wrong. For the majority of the player base, price matters a lot, which is why the reprints are needed in the first place.
When I see high school aged kids, college kids, and adults a like walking in to LGS and buying $100's of dollars of cards on a regular basis. I find it hard to agree with you.
When I go to larger events and watch players drop $100's of dollars on cards they need for the events of the weekend. I find it hard to believe you.
Watched a guy walk in and drop over grand on cards for Modern and Standard like it was nothing. A grown man. 30s.
Maybe I just live in an area where the money issue isnt such a big deal. That could be since I live on the boarder of Wisconsin and Illinios. Multiple LGS Thriving. When I say multiple I am talking over a dozen all with in 30 minutes of each other. But I have traveled to events to different states and I see the same thing. SO I am not thinking its a area thing.
Availability has always been a bigger issue then card prices. I dont see it changing.
Affordability and accessibility are 2 very different issues. Some like to intertwine the two.
Just because you wont or cant, doesnt mean a good portion of the player base can and does. If they didnt we wouldnt have as many LGS as we done.
Cards rise for a variety of reasons. One that has been hitting over the past 5 years and will continue to hit is collectability.
I remember fondly playing in the backyard with my 2 brothers and sister. We had Luke, Leia, R2D2, C3PO and Darth Vader. We each had our own character, and 1 extra. Many many hours were spent being galactic heroes of the Lucas order.
It was no surprise to me that Start Wars figures later had a huge price increase.
The same phenomenon has carried for sportcards of the 1960's, various phenomenon of the 80's like California Raisins, TMNT, Cabbage Patch dolls, and so on.
Most recently we have seen it with Pokemon, and Magic.
People get older, actually start reaching some semblance of earning potential, and have surplus income. Yet they feel something is missing, and they wander backwards to what made them happy. The icons of their childhood are one of the first things they look at.
There may be a lot more room for growth in the middle years of Magic, from 2000 - 2010. All of those kids are now reaching 25 - 35. For even older collectors, midlife crisis will soon hit. They may buy a Corvette. Or they may buy Power 9.
It's a real phenomenon, and it complicates matters for players of a still living game. Most of the time, when they go back to collect, the fads have long since passed on. In this case, it has not.
For this reason, investment in RL cards could pay off handsomely, even the lesser priced cards. I would urge that if you do so, select only the highest M/NM grades and slab them, as the buyers are very picky about getting the best examples. It's like signed first edition books - condition matters.
Except attendance numbers say you are wrong. Even with the increased prices, more people play after the reprints. That alone seems to go against what you are saying.
You're essentially suggesting that people are irrational.
In general, it's an uphill battle to suggest that attendance goes up after prices increase. When things get more expensive, people buy fewer things. Again, I can think of circumstances in which what you're suggesting might be true, but you're going to have to do more work building your case than simply stating it as fact and walking away.
I don't think anyone was suggesting that increasing cost barriers drives up attendance. However, it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that increased interest/attendance can drive up cost.
Except attendance numbers say you are wrong. Even with the increased prices, more people play after the reprints. That alone seems to go against what you are saying.
You're essentially suggesting that people are irrational.
In principle, you're suggesting that people are more sensitive to card availability than to card price. To be fair, I can imagine certain contexts in which this is true - for example, someone opens a Tarmogoyf and suddenly wants three more, despite not being willing to buy four copies before opening the first one. However, the consequence of your theory is that people are willing to pay higher prices to play than they were before, provided the card availability is higher in their local marketplace. Given the relative liquidity of internet-based markets, I have a hard time believing this, although it may be true for certain subsets of the market, like for teenagers without a credit card.
In general, it's an uphill battle to suggest that attendance goes up after prices increase. When things get more expensive, people buy fewer things. Again, I can think of circumstances in which what you're suggesting might be true, but you're going to have to do more work building your case than simply stating it as fact and walking away.
Prices going up are only bad for a section of the player base. For the majority, price means little.
I bolded the part that's unequivocally wrong. For the majority of the player base, price matters a lot, which is why the reprints are needed in the first place.
When I see high school aged kids, college kids, and adults a like walking in to LGS and buying $100's of dollars of cards on a regular basis. I find it hard to agree with you.
When I go to larger events and watch players drop $100's of dollars on cards they need for the events of the weekend. I find it hard to believe you.
Watched a guy walk in and drop over grand on cards for Modern and Standard like it was nothing. A grown man. 30s.
Maybe I just live in an area where the money issue isnt such a big deal. That could be since I live on the boarder of Wisconsin and Illinios. Multiple LGS Thriving. When I say multiple I am talking over a dozen all with in 30 minutes of each other. But I have traveled to events to different states and I see the same thing. SO I am not thinking its a area thing.
Availability has always been a bigger issue then card prices. I dont see it changing.
Affordability and accessibility are 2 very different issues. Some like to intertwine the two.
Just because you wont or cant, doesnt mean a good portion of the player base can and does. If they didnt we wouldnt have as many LGS as we done.
People spend more than most expect on magic, but heavy spenders are rare. Most players put money into the game by small amounts unless they find that one product they truly love or were saving up for.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
People spend more than most expect on magic, but heavy spenders are rare. Most players put money into the game by small amounts unless they find that one product they truly love or were saving up for.
Wish I was like this. I literally have thousands of useful cards that I've used only once or will probably never use, including foils. I'm getting better over this sickness recently.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
People spend more than most expect on magic, but heavy spenders are rare. Most players put money into the game by small amounts unless they find that one product they truly love or were saving up for.
Wish I was like this. I literally have thousands of useful cards that I've used only once or will probably never use, including foils. I'm getting better over this sickness recently.
Isn't that the truth. I went from, I should try jeskai harbinger, to, I like jeskai harbinger, to, well I've started foiling it so can't stop now...
Except attendance numbers say you are wrong. Even with the increased prices, more people play after the reprints. That alone seems to go against what you are saying.
You're essentially suggesting that people are irrational.
In principle, you're suggesting that people are more sensitive to card availability than to card price. To be fair, I can imagine certain contexts in which this is true - for example, someone opens a Tarmogoyf and suddenly wants three more, despite not being willing to buy four copies before opening the first one. However, the consequence of your theory is that people are willing to pay higher prices to play than they were before, provided the card availability is higher in their local marketplace. Given the relative liquidity of internet-based markets, I have a hard time believing this, although it may be true for certain subsets of the market, like for teenagers without a credit card.
In general, it's an uphill battle to suggest that attendance goes up after prices increase. When things get more expensive, people buy fewer things. Again, I can think of circumstances in which what you're suggesting might be true, but you're going to have to do more work building your case than simply stating it as fact and walking away.
Prices going up are only bad for a section of the player base. For the majority, price means little.
I bolded the part that's unequivocally wrong. For the majority of the player base, price matters a lot, which is why the reprints are needed in the first place.
When I see high school aged kids, college kids, and adults a like walking in to LGS and buying $100's of dollars of cards on a regular basis. I find it hard to agree with you.
When I go to larger events and watch players drop $100's of dollars on cards they need for the events of the weekend. I find it hard to believe you.
Watched a guy walk in and drop over grand on cards for Modern and Standard like it was nothing. A grown man. 30s.
Maybe I just live in an area where the money issue isnt such a big deal. That could be since I live on the boarder of Wisconsin and Illinios. Multiple LGS Thriving. When I say multiple I am talking over a dozen all with in 30 minutes of each other. But I have traveled to events to different states and I see the same thing. SO I am not thinking its a area thing.
Availability has always been a bigger issue then card prices. I dont see it changing.
Affordability and accessibility are 2 very different issues. Some like to intertwine the two.
Just because you wont or cant, doesnt mean a good portion of the player base can and does. If they didnt we wouldnt have as many LGS as we done.
People spend more than most expect on magic, but heavy spenders are rare. Most players put money into the game by small amounts unless they find that one product they truly love or were saving up for.
wow, must be nice to be rich. I am a college student in the non 'wipe with $100 bills' part of the country. for me and the people I know who are not heavy grinders who spend on nothing else and live hand to mouth on the rest of life, price is the single biggest object. I call BS on availability issues for 90% of cards in Modern. if I want NM, original printing foil Tarmogoys and i want the playset, the internet makes them readily available. I can track them down in under a minute, the problem is that I could have them OR pay my rent well into the summer. I don't draft hardly ever because it's a money pit, I only buy a box if i expect it to spike if left unopened, and it has been over a year since I payed more than $10 cash for a card. I buy from my LGS when I can, but I feel every dime I put into this game, if I were just starting, I could not begin to play Modern, I would be stuck with EDH alone. people talk about buyouts of cards, but if you just throw money at it, I can have any card in the format ordered and heading my way several times over in 10minutes
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Except attendance numbers say you are wrong. Even with the increased prices, more people play after the reprints. That alone seems to go against what you are saying.
You're essentially suggesting that people are irrational.
In principle, you're suggesting that people are more sensitive to card availability than to card price. To be fair, I can imagine certain contexts in which this is true - for example, someone opens a Tarmogoyf and suddenly wants three more, despite not being willing to buy four copies before opening the first one. However, the consequence of your theory is that people are willing to pay higher prices to play than they were before, provided the card availability is higher in their local marketplace. Given the relative liquidity of internet-based markets, I have a hard time believing this, although it may be true for certain subsets of the market, like for teenagers without a credit card.
In general, it's an uphill battle to suggest that attendance goes up after prices increase. When things get more expensive, people buy fewer things. Again, I can think of circumstances in which what you're suggesting might be true, but you're going to have to do more work building your case than simply stating it as fact and walking away.
Prices going up are only bad for a section of the player base. For the majority, price means little.
I bolded the part that's unequivocally wrong. For the majority of the player base, price matters a lot, which is why the reprints are needed in the first place.
When I see high school aged kids, college kids, and adults a like walking in to LGS and buying $100's of dollars of cards on a regular basis. I find it hard to agree with you.
When I go to larger events and watch players drop $100's of dollars on cards they need for the events of the weekend. I find it hard to believe you.
Watched a guy walk in and drop over grand on cards for Modern and Standard like it was nothing. A grown man. 30s.
Maybe I just live in an area where the money issue isnt such a big deal. That could be since I live on the boarder of Wisconsin and Illinios. Multiple LGS Thriving. When I say multiple I am talking over a dozen all with in 30 minutes of each other. But I have traveled to events to different states and I see the same thing. SO I am not thinking its a area thing.
Availability has always been a bigger issue then card prices. I dont see it changing.
Affordability and accessibility are 2 very different issues. Some like to intertwine the two.
Just because you wont or cant, doesnt mean a good portion of the player base can and does. If they didnt we wouldnt have as many LGS as we done.
People spend more than most expect on magic, but heavy spenders are rare. Most players put money into the game by small amounts unless they find that one product they truly love or were saving up for.
wow, must be nice to be rich. I am a college student in the non 'wipe with $100 bills' part of the country. for me and the people I know who are not heavy grinders who spend on nothing else and live hand to mouth on the rest of life, price is the single biggest object. I call BS on availability issues for 90% of cards in Modern. if I want NM, original printing foil Tarmogoys and i want the playset, the internet makes them readily available. I can track them down in under a minute, the problem is that I could have them OR pay my rent well into the summer. I don't draft hardly ever because it's a money pit, I only buy a box if i expect it to spike if left unopened, and it has been over a year since I payed more than $10 cash for a card. I buy from my LGS when I can, but I feel every dime I put into this game, if I were just starting, I could not begin to play Modern, I would be stuck with EDH alone. people talk about buyouts of cards, but if you just throw money at it, I can have any card in the format ordered and heading my way several times over in 10minutes
Magic is also a hobby and not a basic human right. I too was a broke undergrad student between '09 and '14; that also just so happens to be the time period when I chose not to play the game and focus on school/work. I'm now back in school, working on my phd, and thanks to the two years I took off to work-post grad, I'm able to play again while in school (Although I have wayy less time now, so not as much as I'd like to).
At the end of the day, it's a hobby and hobbies cost money. You seem to be a fiscally responsible student and although cost is a barrier now, it doesn't mean that it will continue to be so in the future. Most college students (myself included) drink piss-water beer for four years because it's cheap; I'd be willing to bet that a graph plotting 'Age/Career Progress' against 'Tastes in Alcoholic Beverages' would suggest that the Natty Light demographic doesn't go much further than 24 years old. Magic is very similar to booze; it's a luxury item that has different price points, so it can be enjoyed by a variety of folks. Just like the average college kid isn't sipping on Blue Label every weekend, the average college-aged magic player probably isn't gonna be able to foil out tier 1 modern decks. That's life.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
people talk about buyouts of cards, but if you just throw money at it, I can have any card in the format ordered and heading my way several times over in 10minutes
That's why it's called a 'buyout' and not a 'mass card burning'. The cards just move between owners, that's it. Of course you can still get them if you pay enough cash, that's the whole point of a buyout.
Saying you can't buy a foil Tarmogoyf playset AND pay your rent is like me going on a car forum and complaining that I can't afford a GT-R AND pay my rent.
Sure it's true but I don't think I'd get anything else in response than 'well, yeah', especially if I resorted to passive-aggressive comments like 'it must be nice to be rich' indirectly aimed at people who can afford such things - or better yet, implying they wipe their asses with dollar bills simply because they have more money to spend than I do.
This is gonna turn into a bit of a rant at this point but we're talking about a hobby here. You can still play MTG, you just can't foil out your Jund deck right now. We're not exactly discussing the horrors of being forced to walk 8 miles through warlord territory to a well with semi-drinkable water in the blistering heat at 5AM every morning.
People spend more than most expect on magic, but heavy spenders are rare. Most players put money into the game by small amounts unless they find that one product they truly love or were saving up for.
Wish I was like this. I literally have thousands of useful cards that I've used only once or will probably never use, including foils. I'm getting better over this sickness recently.
Bud, this was happening to me, I was buying like every staple in Modern. I recently sold a bunch of staples and decks. I decided I'm just keeping my GBx cards (So Jund, Junk and Death Shadow), and a burn deck on the side. Everything else is gone or going.
I am taking that money and foiling out GBx though, but I'm not buying other decks because i'll drive myself crazy trying to keep up with every deck in the format.
If Splinter Twin ever gets unbanned (which could be years or never), I'll start slowly foiling that out. For now, I'd rather just foil the GBx archetype and play mainly that so I can be good with it
Except attendance numbers say you are wrong. Even with the increased prices, more people play after the reprints. That alone seems to go against what you are saying.
You're essentially suggesting that people are irrational.
In principle, you're suggesting that people are more sensitive to card availability than to card price. To be fair, I can imagine certain contexts in which this is true - for example, someone opens a Tarmogoyf and suddenly wants three more, despite not being willing to buy four copies before opening the first one. However, the consequence of your theory is that people are willing to pay higher prices to play than they were before, provided the card availability is higher in their local marketplace. Given the relative liquidity of internet-based markets, I have a hard time believing this, although it may be true for certain subsets of the market, like for teenagers without a credit card.
In general, it's an uphill battle to suggest that attendance goes up after prices increase. When things get more expensive, people buy fewer things. Again, I can think of circumstances in which what you're suggesting might be true, but you're going to have to do more work building your case than simply stating it as fact and walking away.
Prices going up are only bad for a section of the player base. For the majority, price means little.
I bolded the part that's unequivocally wrong. For the majority of the player base, price matters a lot, which is why the reprints are needed in the first place.
When I see high school aged kids, college kids, and adults a like walking in to LGS and buying $100's of dollars of cards on a regular basis. I find it hard to agree with you.
When I go to larger events and watch players drop $100's of dollars on cards they need for the events of the weekend. I find it hard to believe you.
Watched a guy walk in and drop over grand on cards for Modern and Standard like it was nothing. A grown man. 30s.
Maybe I just live in an area where the money issue isnt such a big deal. That could be since I live on the boarder of Wisconsin and Illinios. Multiple LGS Thriving. When I say multiple I am talking over a dozen all with in 30 minutes of each other. But I have traveled to events to different states and I see the same thing. SO I am not thinking its a area thing.
Availability has always been a bigger issue then card prices. I dont see it changing.
Affordability and accessibility are 2 very different issues. Some like to intertwine the two.
Just because you wont or cant, doesnt mean a good portion of the player base can and does. If they didnt we wouldnt have as many LGS as we done.
People spend more than most expect on magic, but heavy spenders are rare. Most players put money into the game by small amounts unless they find that one product they truly love or were saving up for.
wow, must be nice to be rich. I am a college student in the non 'wipe with $100 bills' part of the country. for me and the people I know who are not heavy grinders who spend on nothing else and live hand to mouth on the rest of life, price is the single biggest object. I call BS on availability issues for 90% of cards in Modern. if I want NM, original printing foil Tarmogoys and i want the playset, the internet makes them readily available. I can track them down in under a minute, the problem is that I could have them OR pay my rent well into the summer. I don't draft hardly ever because it's a money pit, I only buy a box if i expect it to spike if left unopened, and it has been over a year since I payed more than $10 cash for a card. I buy from my LGS when I can, but I feel every dime I put into this game, if I were just starting, I could not begin to play Modern, I would be stuck with EDH alone. people talk about buyouts of cards, but if you just throw money at it, I can have any card in the format ordered and heading my way several times over in 10minutes
Gah, don't slap me with the fish when I'm agreeing with you on heavy spending! For the vast majority that play magic Draft and limited is the main go to as far as I can tell. The salvation forums (especially the modern forums) houses some of the most devote of the MtG community so they have a really high spending wall to throw at the game. At least that is the impression I've been getting for a while now. Given how dependant people are this generation on their own income to save for retirement and the increasing dependence on loans in higher education I've been budgeting pretty conservatively on my free time spending even with a really good job.
There are plenty of people out there who's discretionary / free spending budget for an entire year is maybe 1,200 usd, which is why I've been saying for a long time that the paywall is too high on modern for a good portion of the MtG community. Someone isn't going to go out and spend the money to buy a playset of Liliana of the Veil if the card is going to literally eat a quarter of their entire years free-spend income. Same thing with fetches or anything else. Heck, I seriously question some people's spending habits on this forum because it always sounds like they are using a high paying job as an excuse not to save for retirement or deal with life costs.
Case in point, it's easy for someone to say they can afford to pay for playsets of 40+ usd cards regularly when they don't factor in the realities of retirement in the future. It is hard to believe people like that are completely spending money on MtG and not on Movies, going out to eat, buying a new gaming console or PC, etc. It also doesn't help the retirement systems like pension plans are non-existent in their original forms and the safety systems like Medicare are getting completely trashed in the United States. People are increasingly living in the now instead of saving, so there is going to be a very very bad future looming over the horizon.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
I read this comment and realized how little you actually know about the market and how it works.
Fulmanator wont see south of $30 until it gets reprinted again.
People need to realize there are levels of speculators. There are those chasing pennies, others are chasing hundreds or thousands of dollars on speculations. Other just speculate enough to keep them playing the game for free or very cheap.
I think about the substitutes for fulminator mage are.
1 rain of tears
1 molten rain
cards with no substitutes like karn liberated will more likely maintain the higher price.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
What do you mean? I never said they would go back down to their original price, but when the spikes hit they almost always rebound back down unless the card was out of print for a long time like something from Time Spiral or Shards. Fulminator Mage is very likely to see a reprint in the future and the demand can't hold the card at it's current point unless the meta changes. The downside is that the reprint is still going to have to be Eternal or modern masters, which is bad news for players looking for a reprint in the short term.
Karn is pretty much doomed to stay where he is at with Tron decks being popular and no reprinting in sight. It was a miracle we got Death's Shadow in the MM2017 set along with Basilisk's Collar.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You speak like this is something new to the game. Its not. Its been this way forever. Its not bad news for anyone. Its how the market and system works.
You dont know what cards will be reprinted. You can hope. But thats what speculation is. You stay way from cards you think will be reprinted, and you buy into those you dont think will be.
Wow you got a good deal. Foil Fulminator Mages were about $80 last time I checked.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Erm. Are you serious? When wizards pushes out reprints, and the format in turn gets MORE expensive, it's terrible for the players, and the format in general. You call it a "market" but a market like this didn't exist 10 years ago. Speculation was much much less significant. It stands to reason that the bigger it got that this was inevitably the result, but this sort of purposeful price spiking is only good for the speculators that won. It increases the barrier for new blood to enter, and it doesn't help the players unless they suddenly decide to quit and liquidize their collection. Magic is going up and up and up in price. What goes up, must come down, and for very obvious reasons in this case.
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
What really didn't help is the opportunistic devils that took advantage of the syncing application between TCGPlayer, ebay, and amazon having issues and did some price manipulations on things like merchant scroll.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Agreed, I got my 12 merchant scrolls weeks ago after seeing Gifts Storm running it without any expectation of price spikes.
Except attendance numbers say you are wrong. Even with the increased prices, more people play after the reprints. That alone seems to go against what you are saying.
Prices going up are only bad for a section of the player base. For the majority, price means little.
In principle, you're suggesting that people are more sensitive to card availability than to card price. To be fair, I can imagine certain contexts in which this is true - for example, someone opens a Tarmogoyf and suddenly wants three more, despite not being willing to buy four copies before opening the first one. However, the consequence of your theory is that people are willing to pay higher prices to play than they were before, provided the card availability is higher in their local marketplace. Given the relative liquidity of internet-based markets, I have a hard time believing this, although it may be true for certain subsets of the market, like for teenagers without a credit card.
In general, it's an uphill battle to suggest that attendance goes up after prices increase. When things get more expensive, people buy fewer things. Again, I can think of circumstances in which what you're suggesting might be true, but you're going to have to do more work building your case than simply stating it as fact and walking away.
I bolded the part that's unequivocally wrong. For the majority of the player base, price matters a lot, which is why the reprints are needed in the first place.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
When I see high school aged kids, college kids, and adults a like walking in to LGS and buying $100's of dollars of cards on a regular basis. I find it hard to agree with you.
When I go to larger events and watch players drop $100's of dollars on cards they need for the events of the weekend. I find it hard to believe you.
Watched a guy walk in and drop over grand on cards for Modern and Standard like it was nothing. A grown man. 30s.
Maybe I just live in an area where the money issue isnt such a big deal. That could be since I live on the boarder of Wisconsin and Illinios. Multiple LGS Thriving. When I say multiple I am talking over a dozen all with in 30 minutes of each other. But I have traveled to events to different states and I see the same thing. SO I am not thinking its a area thing.
Availability has always been a bigger issue then card prices. I dont see it changing.
Affordability and accessibility are 2 very different issues. Some like to intertwine the two.
Just because you wont or cant, doesnt mean a good portion of the player base can and does. If they didnt we wouldnt have as many LGS as we done.
I remember fondly playing in the backyard with my 2 brothers and sister. We had Luke, Leia, R2D2, C3PO and Darth Vader. We each had our own character, and 1 extra. Many many hours were spent being galactic heroes of the Lucas order.
It was no surprise to me that Start Wars figures later had a huge price increase.
The same phenomenon has carried for sportcards of the 1960's, various phenomenon of the 80's like California Raisins, TMNT, Cabbage Patch dolls, and so on.
Most recently we have seen it with Pokemon, and Magic.
People get older, actually start reaching some semblance of earning potential, and have surplus income. Yet they feel something is missing, and they wander backwards to what made them happy. The icons of their childhood are one of the first things they look at.
There may be a lot more room for growth in the middle years of Magic, from 2000 - 2010. All of those kids are now reaching 25 - 35. For even older collectors, midlife crisis will soon hit. They may buy a Corvette. Or they may buy Power 9.
It's a real phenomenon, and it complicates matters for players of a still living game. Most of the time, when they go back to collect, the fads have long since passed on. In this case, it has not.
For this reason, investment in RL cards could pay off handsomely, even the lesser priced cards. I would urge that if you do so, select only the highest M/NM grades and slab them, as the buyers are very picky about getting the best examples. It's like signed first edition books - condition matters.
I don't think anyone was suggesting that increasing cost barriers drives up attendance. However, it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that increased interest/attendance can drive up cost.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
People spend more than most expect on magic, but heavy spenders are rare. Most players put money into the game by small amounts unless they find that one product they truly love or were saving up for.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Wish I was like this. I literally have thousands of useful cards that I've used only once or will probably never use, including foils. I'm getting better over this sickness recently.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Isn't that the truth. I went from, I should try jeskai harbinger, to, I like jeskai harbinger, to, well I've started foiling it so can't stop now...
Spirits
wow, must be nice to be rich. I am a college student in the non 'wipe with $100 bills' part of the country. for me and the people I know who are not heavy grinders who spend on nothing else and live hand to mouth on the rest of life, price is the single biggest object. I call BS on availability issues for 90% of cards in Modern. if I want NM, original printing foil Tarmogoys and i want the playset, the internet makes them readily available. I can track them down in under a minute, the problem is that I could have them OR pay my rent well into the summer. I don't draft hardly ever because it's a money pit, I only buy a box if i expect it to spike if left unopened, and it has been over a year since I payed more than $10 cash for a card. I buy from my LGS when I can, but I feel every dime I put into this game, if I were just starting, I could not begin to play Modern, I would be stuck with EDH alone. people talk about buyouts of cards, but if you just throw money at it, I can have any card in the format ordered and heading my way several times over in 10minutes
Magic is also a hobby and not a basic human right. I too was a broke undergrad student between '09 and '14; that also just so happens to be the time period when I chose not to play the game and focus on school/work. I'm now back in school, working on my phd, and thanks to the two years I took off to work-post grad, I'm able to play again while in school (Although I have wayy less time now, so not as much as I'd like to).
At the end of the day, it's a hobby and hobbies cost money. You seem to be a fiscally responsible student and although cost is a barrier now, it doesn't mean that it will continue to be so in the future. Most college students (myself included) drink piss-water beer for four years because it's cheap; I'd be willing to bet that a graph plotting 'Age/Career Progress' against 'Tastes in Alcoholic Beverages' would suggest that the Natty Light demographic doesn't go much further than 24 years old. Magic is very similar to booze; it's a luxury item that has different price points, so it can be enjoyed by a variety of folks. Just like the average college kid isn't sipping on Blue Label every weekend, the average college-aged magic player probably isn't gonna be able to foil out tier 1 modern decks. That's life.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
That's why it's called a 'buyout' and not a 'mass card burning'. The cards just move between owners, that's it. Of course you can still get them if you pay enough cash, that's the whole point of a buyout.
Saying you can't buy a foil Tarmogoyf playset AND pay your rent is like me going on a car forum and complaining that I can't afford a GT-R AND pay my rent.
Sure it's true but I don't think I'd get anything else in response than 'well, yeah', especially if I resorted to passive-aggressive comments like 'it must be nice to be rich' indirectly aimed at people who can afford such things - or better yet, implying they wipe their asses with dollar bills simply because they have more money to spend than I do.
This is gonna turn into a bit of a rant at this point but we're talking about a hobby here. You can still play MTG, you just can't foil out your Jund deck right now. We're not exactly discussing the horrors of being forced to walk 8 miles through warlord territory to a well with semi-drinkable water in the blistering heat at 5AM every morning.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Bud, this was happening to me, I was buying like every staple in Modern. I recently sold a bunch of staples and decks. I decided I'm just keeping my GBx cards (So Jund, Junk and Death Shadow), and a burn deck on the side. Everything else is gone or going.
I am taking that money and foiling out GBx though, but I'm not buying other decks because i'll drive myself crazy trying to keep up with every deck in the format.
If Splinter Twin ever gets unbanned (which could be years or never), I'll start slowly foiling that out. For now, I'd rather just foil the GBx archetype and play mainly that so I can be good with it
Gah, don't slap me with the fish when I'm agreeing with you on heavy spending! For the vast majority that play magic Draft and limited is the main go to as far as I can tell. The salvation forums (especially the modern forums) houses some of the most devote of the MtG community so they have a really high spending wall to throw at the game. At least that is the impression I've been getting for a while now. Given how dependant people are this generation on their own income to save for retirement and the increasing dependence on loans in higher education I've been budgeting pretty conservatively on my free time spending even with a really good job.
There are plenty of people out there who's discretionary / free spending budget for an entire year is maybe 1,200 usd, which is why I've been saying for a long time that the paywall is too high on modern for a good portion of the MtG community. Someone isn't going to go out and spend the money to buy a playset of Liliana of the Veil if the card is going to literally eat a quarter of their entire years free-spend income. Same thing with fetches or anything else. Heck, I seriously question some people's spending habits on this forum because it always sounds like they are using a high paying job as an excuse not to save for retirement or deal with life costs.
Case in point, it's easy for someone to say they can afford to pay for playsets of 40+ usd cards regularly when they don't factor in the realities of retirement in the future. It is hard to believe people like that are completely spending money on MtG and not on Movies, going out to eat, buying a new gaming console or PC, etc. It also doesn't help the retirement systems like pension plans are non-existent in their original forms and the safety systems like Medicare are getting completely trashed in the United States. People are increasingly living in the now instead of saving, so there is going to be a very very bad future looming over the horizon.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!