MTG Salvation

How far ahead is Standard designed? We know Mari is down on Fetches right now, and despite some people's feelings, Wizards is inclined to make money.

If Fetches are out of Standard from 2, to 5 years, well, sell them now.

I'm totally fine with it, and if they are in the set, well Tarns will drop.

Well, if they don't want to reprint the fetches in standard and people are clamoring for them then it does make sense they'd print them in MM2017. However, people really wanted them printed in a set with a lower MSRP, so this wouldn't exactly be a positive thing.

I think if true (I've been looking for other leaks to reinforce) it just means Standard isn't getting them for a long time and Wizards Frontier won't have Khan's, some interesting things to think about.

They will be printed in standard purely for the reason they will sell whatever set they are in no matter how bad it is.
Why waste fetchs on a set like modern masters with a limited print run?

I don't think it makes sense to be in there whatsoever. Remember, these sets have been designed and finalized more than a year ago. They've been printed and packaged for months and months. Everything has been done for quite a long time. If they put it in as a "reaction" to Standard, they would have to have done a big, last minute turnaround on the set.

As for fetches in Standard, remember that when Amonkhet was designed, finalized, and sent to the printers, rotation was supposed to still happen every 6 months. It's still entirely likely they are in there (or some other upcoming standard set).

It just makes no sense to print such a high demand item, so crucially valuable to every single deck in every eternal format, in such a limited set. If they don't put them in standard, it's only because they hate money.

Hasbro + Hates Money = ROFLMAO!!!

I can't offer proof, all I have is a very credible source. Do with the info what you will - apparently Wizards leaks false spoilers to their own employees at this point to keep actual leaks safe. Nothing is set in stone anymore as such.

Either way all I got was fetches for sure.

I remain skeptical as always.

Although I can see it happening because with the lack of hype the set has received and the awful packaging art it seems Wizards is trying their
hardest to screw other those who sit on product.

Mark rose water also recently tweeted regarding frontier that if they were to choose a starting point, it would have been after khans to remove fetches from th format. They are reluctant to print them in standard I think because of the price barrier and shuffling. Printing them here gives us another reprint off the back end of the expedition cycle to alleviate market pressure while avoiding the standard 2 year thing.

Also, with rumors of a substantially larger print run, something like this makes sense. I think read somewhere in the spec forum for mm17 someone heard 5x the mm15 print run? Maybe baseless spec but it all adds up.

I can see it happening. It would drive the prices of the chase cards down, but the ev of the packs is going to be kinda squirrelly if this is true unless we get some pretty bad rares.

Quote from whocansay »

I can't offer proof, all I have is a very credible source. Do with the info what you will - apparently Wizards leaks false spoilers to their own employees at this point to keep actual leaks safe. Nothing is set in stone anymore as such.

Either way all I got was fetches for sure.

For what it's worth I believe you on it given the kinds of things wizards representatives have said prior about their feelings on fetches. I just really wish they would cut out WPN allocations all together and engage in more regular, less expensive reprint sets at maybe 150 msrp so more packs get opened if they do start reprinting land cycles like this. The cost of printing the cards is the same for WoTC regardless of secondary market values and right now they are printing 2/3 the number of cards per box and selling each box for 2.4x the price of a normal 36 booster pack standard box.

If the set has Goblin Guide, Snaps, Grisel, Lily and Fetches?

It will fly off the shelf.

Quote from idSurge »

If the set has Goblin Guide, Snaps, Grisel, Lily and Fetches?

It will fly off the shelf.

If not from players, secondary market singles sellers. Really these sets feel more like they are for the singles sellers market because the MSRP per box is really insanely high for most sealed players, which has been my problem with modern masters from the start. For wizards this is a high margin sell, which I think works fine for From the Vault, but not for something like a draft set.

Right now drafters are having a field day thanks to the 60 dollars off msrp preorders. Of course that still is too expensive for some since they are getting a 1/3 less product for the cost of two booster boxes from standard, but still.

I locked in for 4 cases in December. Regardless of what happens, I'm having me a pack opening extravaganza starting at midnight!

I want a playset of Lili, and a foil Cavern of Souls. Zenfetches would be unreal, but I remain skeptical. 2 more days!2 more days!2 more days! 2 more days!

2 more days until what? MM3 doesn't come out until March 17th.

2 more days until spoilers start

Quote from whocansay »

2 more days until what? MM3 doesn't come out until March 17th.

Spoilers start.

Fetches won't be in MM3 because WOTC has shareholders they have to attend to. Khans and BFZ were bestsellers due to: fetchlands, expeditions, and full-art lands. A set with the first two will be the best selling set ever released and WOTC knows that.

Quote from Fayrawks »

Quote from whocansay »

2 more days until what? MM3 doesn't come out until March 17th.

Spoilers start.

Fetches won't be in MM3 because WOTC has shareholders they have to attend do. Khans and BFZ were bestsellers due to: fetchlands, expeditions, and full-art lands. A set with the first two will be the best selling set ever released and WOTC knows that.

The thing is they can still reprint zen fetches in a standard set even if they reprint them in Modern Masters 2017. They have to print the Zen fetches into the right set environment, which means they can't have any lands with basic types as that creates perfect mana. If they have plans to print an enemy cycle of battle lands than they can't also print fetch lands in the same standard. So, if they reprint them in modern masters they can hold off on them and at least somewhat satisfy people demanding reprints. It's kind of a zany way to do it and we probably want to see other things in MM2017, but that is how the cookie may crumble.

Quote from mapccu »

Mark rose water also recently tweeted regarding frontier that if they were to choose a starting point, it would have been after khans to remove fetches from th format. They are reluctant to print them in standard I think because of the price barrier and shuffling. Printing them here gives us another reprint off the back end of the expedition cycle to alleviate market pressure while avoiding the standard 2 year thing.

Also, with rumors of a substantially larger print run, something like this makes sense. I think read somewhere in the spec forum for mm17 someone heard 5x the mm15 print run? Maybe baseless spec but it all adds up.

I can see it happening. It would drive the prices of the chase cards down, but the ev of the packs is going to be kinda squirrelly if this is true unless we get some pretty bad rares.

If it's 5x the print run, I wonder whose getting the extra cards. I talked to our local store about this and they said they were limited to 6 cases.

The LGS I ordered mine from got 15 cases confirmed, perhaps more later. If fetches are included, demand will explode.

Don't worry, they learned their lesson from Chronicles.

Quote from mapccu »

Mark rose water also recently tweeted regarding frontier that if they were to choose a starting point, it would have been after khans to remove fetches from th format. They are reluctant to print them in standard I think because of the price barrier and shuffling.

If that's their reason, then they're being idiots. Fetchlands were not a problem either in price or shuffling... until some numbskull decided to put the battle lands in the same Standard format. That's when they became a problem in price and shuffling.

Before that, people ran fetchlands, but not that many. Decks would usually run 3-4 in total, with a few decks running more if they really wanted to fuel Delve. For example, let's look at how many fetchlands the Top 8 decks at Grand Prix London ran. Most ran 4, with a few running 3. That's not many fetchlands. You'll maybe crack a fetchland once or twice a game; that's not a problem. And their prices were around the $10 mark; more expensive than your typical dual land, but not all that unreasonable.

Then the battlelands came. Contrast this Top 8. Not counting the mono-Green deck, every deck is running a minimum of 10 fetchlands, with the majority running 12 (and one deck running 4x Evolving Wilds in addition to their 12 fetchlands). We're seeing about 3 times as many fetchlands being run. By the way I'd like to point out that this is more fetchlands than your typical Modern deck runs, and I expect part of the reason for that is that Wizards of the Coast somehow thought it was a good idea to put this crazy synergy into Standard without any card to hate on it. Next time people complain about Blood Moon in Modern, point them to this Standard format to show what happens when you don't bother with hate cards like that.

At any rate, the fetchlands+battlelands was when there was a lot more shuffling and more problematically, really high prices. Because not only were you running more fetchlands, they were more expensive due to being in higher demand and in an older set. If they wanted to combine fetchlands with fetchable duals, you'd think they would've done it in the opposite order, the battle lands first and then the fetchlands second, as there'd be a more continual supply of fetchlands. Not only would it cause fewer monetary problems, it would also make there be more demand for the newer set than it got before because the extremely in-demand fetchlands would be in the current set rather than an older one. But that would require some mild level of intelligence, which Wizards of the Coast clearly weren't using when they made this move.

All they have to do is not do something mind-numbingly stupid like combining fetchlands with shocklands (which might have still been okay if they had printed even one decent hate card for the combination--next time someone says Modern would be better without Blood Moon, point them to this Standard environment) for the combination and the fetchlands will be fine in Standard.

Quote from Lord Seth »

Quote from mapccu »

Mark rose water also recently tweeted regarding frontier that if they were to choose a starting point, it would have been after khans to remove fetches from th format. They are reluctant to print them in standard I think because of the price barrier and shuffling.

If that's their reason, then they're being idiots. Fetchlands were not a problem either in price or shuffling... until some numbskull decided to put the battle lands in the same Standard format. That's when they became a problem in price and shuffling.

Before that, people ran fetchlands, but not that many. Decks would usually run 3-4 in total, with a few decks running more if they really wanted to fuel Delve. For example, let's look at how many fetchlands the Top 8 decks at Grand Prix London ran. Most ran 4, with a few running 3. That's not many fetchlands. You'll maybe crack a fetchland once or twice a game; that's not a problem. And their prices were around the $10 mark; more expensive than your typical dual land, but not all that unreasonable.

Then the battlelands came. Contrast this Top 8. Not counting the mono-Green deck, every deck is running a minimum of 10 fetchlands, with the majority running 12 (and one deck running 4x Evolving Wilds in addition to their 12 fetchlands). We're seeing about 3 times as many fetchlands being run. By the way I'd like to point out that this is more fetchlands than your typical Modern deck runs, and I expect part of the reason for that is that Wizards of the Coast somehow thought it was a good idea to put this crazy synergy into Standard without any card to hate on it. Next time people complain about Blood Moon in Modern, point them to this Standard format to show what happens when you don't bother with hate cards like that.

At any rate, the fetchlands+battlelands was when there was a lot more shuffling and more problematically, really high prices. Because not only were you running more fetchlands, they were more expensive due to being in higher demand and in an older set. If they wanted to combine fetchlands with fetchable duals, you'd think they would've done it in the opposite order, the battle lands first and then the fetchlands second, as there'd be a more continual supply of fetchlands. Not only would it cause fewer monetary problems, it would also make there be more demand for the newer set than it got before because the extremely in-demand fetchlands would be in the current set rather than an older one. But that would require some mild level of intelligence, which Wizards of the Coast clearly weren't using when they made this move.

All they have to do is not do something mind-numbingly stupid like combining fetchlands with shocklands (which might have still been okay if they had printed even one decent hate card for the combination--next time someone says Modern would be better without Blood Moon, point them to this Standard environment) for the combination and the fetchlands will be fine in Standard.

For what it's worth I totally agree with you, the two in conjunction caused a problem. Delve just exacerbated the issue. I was simply saying it just adds validity to the subject, in my eyes.

stonefforge mystic isn't broken, stoneforge mystic in a standard environment with batterskull AND the sword cycle is a problem. Aside from jitte, it had all the highest profile targets ever printed along side it.

It just further proves that there are plenty of correct environments for stuff to migrate to modern via standard when all the strongest support isn't printed along side it.

I would like to see stronger targeted land hate in modern without blanket effects like blood moon. Not sure what it would look like though aside from fulminator mage.

Quote from Aazadan »

Quote from mapccu »

Mark rose water also recently tweeted regarding frontier that if they were to choose a starting point, it would have been after khans to remove fetches from th format. They are reluctant to print them in standard I think because of the price barrier and shuffling. Printing them here gives us another reprint off the back end of the expedition cycle to alleviate market pressure while avoiding the standard 2 year thing.

Also, with rumors of a substantially larger print run, something like this makes sense. I think read somewhere in the spec forum for mm17 someone heard 5x the mm15 print run? Maybe baseless spec but it all adds up.

I can see it happening. It would drive the prices of the chase cards down, but the ev of the packs is going to be kinda squirrelly if this is true unless we get some pretty bad rares.

If it's 5x the print run, I wonder whose getting the extra cards. I talked to our local store about this and they said they were limited to 6 cases.

This makes me wonder if they(being wizards) are going to hold up sealed product for a second wave like in eternal masters.

Quote from whocansay »

I can't offer proof, all I have is a very credible source. Do with the info what you will - apparently Wizards leaks false spoilers to their own employees at this point to keep actual leaks safe. Nothing is set in stone anymore as such.

Either way all I got was fetches for sure.

Although I'm still not completely sold, you seem to know what you're talking about when you post and I respect your opinions/information; I'm pulling the trigger and liquidating all my enemy fetches aside from a play set of each. Without even taking initial price drops into consideration, I don't want to miss the boat and get stuck with the Zen printings, as I'm pretty sure any card with the "counterfeit-deterrent" holo introduced in M15(?) will be the preferred print, so long as counterfeiters continue to improve their technique. It's not a big issue when dealing locally, but it's becoming more and more of a pain in the ass to deal with older cards online.

That is very true. In the long run, we'll see holograms matter, and that's when Masterpieces and Expeditions will rise. Right now, the floor is low on these cards. Long term? They'll be where the new border $1000 cards come from.

Would a printing in a limited print run set even affect the price of Zendikar fetches significantly? How much of a price drop are we talking about to warrant selling them? And does this mean Wizards will never print them in Standard again?