That would make a lot more sense. All of the cards you mentioned at that curve have something they rely on. You need another type of land, or something of the sort to make them as good as they are. So just a natural 3/4 for 1G with no restrictions would be worlds better than those cards, because there is no relying factor. There is no "drawback."
That would make a decent card, right along the curve, but it isn't a Goyf anymore. it doesn't do what a llhurgoyf does, so it hurts flavor. I wouldn't want to see one printed that didn't do what all the rest of them do to some extent.
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Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
What about the same text as regular goyf with the restriction, "minigoyf's ability cannot make it bigger than 3/4"? Therefore, it would be a maximum of 1G for 3/4, and you can still make it bigger than a 3/4 with enchantments or equipments or other effects. And it would be worse than a goyf cause a regular one can go up to 7/8.
In Modern, we already have W for 2/3 with Loam Lion, R for 2/3 with Kird Ape, 1G for 3/3 with the option of haste with Flint Hoof Boar, and G for 3/3 with Wild Nacatl. I suggest 1G for a 3/4 goyf. It would be beyond the curve yet I think this would still be reasonable considering the other options already in Modern.
Or, how about this. 1G for 2/2. Mini-goyf gets +1/+1 if you control a plains. Mini-goyf gets +1/+1 if you control a mountain.
Moreover, itd be more of a Papa-Nacatl than a mini-Goyf
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Yeah i think if you were gonna restrict it 4/5 would be an ok cutoff. It wouldnt be too bulky in the text box either to say "the stars can not equal more than --3-- or --4-- in this way.
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Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Goyf's power level, IMO. Anything less just wouldn't be worth running in Modern without some other ability (Note that the only other cards that get run as two-mana beaters have obnoxiously strong abilities, like Scooze and the occasional Nic Cage). He folds to pretty much every removal spell in the format besides Bolt, doesn't have evasion, and pretty much only gets played because he's really huge, which is fine and not overpowered at all. Goyf just needs to be more available, is all. It's like if Lightning Bolt cost more than a hundred dollars.
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Really, to be perfectly honest, I don't think that Tarmo would be overpowered in a Standard set, unless that set also had fetches and a bunch of artifacts and enchantments that would regularly end up in the 'yard. Without those, he'd generally only get to 3/4, (Instant, Sorcery, Creature) which isn't remotely outside of what's appropriate for Standard. It's strong, sure, and it would make green aggro strong, but not anywhere near to the point that it would make other decks unplayable.
'Goyf for Core Set President 2016
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Fair enough, thought I wouldn't call it greed on the part of WOTC. Keep in mind that at the end of the day they have to make the smart business decision, they are running a business after all and it would be behoove them to make the decision that will maximize their profits while maintaining player base. As much as it is a pain, I don't think anyone quit the format because goyf was printed at mythic. Note that I don't agree with the decision, but it is what it is, and if I was the CEO or person responsible for the decision, I'd print it at mythic if that meant the greatest number of projected sales as that would reflect well on me and the job I was doing at the end of the day.
Regardless, it should be at rare I agree, end of story.
Doesn't top out the way a Goyf does so it would be strictly inferior meaning all the "Collectors" should be fine but 4 is still an acceptable beater. Looses the graveyard reference but that's annoying anyway and usually irrelevant.
*Edit: my browser hadn't updated so I replied to an extremely old post (a few hours). Most of what I replied with has already been said, so please feel free to ignore my late response below if you don't want to re-hash what others have already said. Sorry about that!
A fun idea, but let's examine that a bit more.
The above card is way too good for uncommon, and arguably better than goyf because you are guaranteed a 4/5 on turn two/in the early game if you draw it. That card isn't dependent on any other cards or interactions to be good. The graveyard reference is very much relevant, as there is a lot of options out there for graveyard hate that end up hitting goyf as collateral damage. The graveyard provides another way to interact with a Goyf besides spot removal. While goyf may gain strength from the graveyard, it is also a weakness and something that can be used against it.
The above card would also further homogenize what you are forced to play if you splash green, as you don't even have to play fetches or discard for it to be good, it's already a straight up 4/5 for 1 and a G.
Then if they did print it, what's to then stop someone from playing 4 goyfs and 4 not-goyfs for a total of 8 2cc creatures that are often 4/5 or bigger by turns 3-4. And don't say the solution is to ban goyf, as that would be something that would actually cause people to quit the format by destroying any sense of stability in the format or faith in consistency by WOTC.
What about something closer to this?
not-goyf V2
Uncommon
GG
2/3
(Not-goyf gets +2/+2 as long as you control a basic forest)
Not nearly as splashable and really forces you to be in green to play it.
At the end of the day though, there is absolutely no way that one of the most efficient dumb beaters in the format should or will be printed at uncommon. Rare is absolutely fine, and is also where I think everyone can agree that Tarmogoyf should be. For added context, this has nothing to do with pricing. I own a set of goyfs and I would be just fine with a re-print at rare and a massive drop in price so that everyone can get theirs as well who needs them without selling a kidney.
I respect your personal opinion, but many would disagree.
Goyf and SFM have been called mistakes by Wotc.
While this is true, DRS was not a mistake. Wizards said that they intentionally gave it 2 toughness so that it would die to less removal. They chose to allow it to affect all graveyards. That was not a mistake. Also, SFM wasn't truly broken until Batterskull, which was just WotC saying "We know that this is going to break Stoneforge Mystic, but we are not going to let Living Weapon go on without it being good. If it needs a ban, then so be it.".
I respect your personal opinion, but many would disagree.
Goyf and SFM have been called mistakes by Wotc.
While this is true, DRS was not a mistake. Wizards said that they intentionally gave it 2 toughness so that it would die to less removal. They chose to allow it to affect all graveyards. That was not a mistake. Also, SFM wasn't truly broken until Batterskull, which was just WotC saying "We know that this is going to break Stoneforge Mystic, but we are not going to let Living Weapon go on without it being good. If it needs a ban, then so be it.".
This exactly, SFM was broken/a mistake only in the sense that it was just a matter of time until something came along that made it completely broken. SFM and other similar cards tend to be either banned or at risk because they can interact with other cards that did or may be coming out that were not directly designed with the paired interaction in mind.
I'm also curious what their wording was regarding goyf in relation to it being a mistake? The only thing I can think of is that they did not account for the additional card types that would allow for it to grow as big as it does. I also think that people get caught up in the price and desirability of the card, and often feel if they can't acquire them or don't want to, that the card should just be banned. I wonder if it was available to anyone for $20 or heck, even $50, if we would see the incessant calling for its ban (my guess is it would not near the frequency we see it at now).
I respect your personal opinion, but many would disagree.
Goyf and SFM have been called mistakes by Wotc.
While this is true, DRS was not a mistake. Wizards said that they intentionally gave it 2 toughness so that it would die to less removal. They chose to allow it to affect all graveyards. That was not a mistake. Also, SFM wasn't truly broken until Batterskull, which was just WotC saying "We know that this is going to break Stoneforge Mystic, but we are not going to let Living Weapon go on without it being good. If it needs a ban, then so be it.".
This exactly, SFM was broken/a mistake only in the sense that it was just a matter of time until something came along that made it completely broken. SFM and other similar cards tend to be either banned or at risk because they can interact with other cards that did or may be coming out that were not directly designed with the paired interaction in mind.
I'm also curious what their wording was regarding goyf in relation to it being a mistake? The only thing I can think of is that they did not account for the additional card types that would allow for it to grow as big as it does. I also think that people get caught up in the price and desirability of the card, and often feel if they can't acquire them or don't want to, that the card should just be banned. I wonder if it was available to anyone for $20 or heck, even $50, if we would see the incessant calling for its ban (my guess is it would not near the frequency we see it at now).
Maro wanted to make it not get the +1 toughness boost and be a 3 mana creature. Development misread it as an x/x+1 (because Lhurghoyf is like that) and pushed it down to 2 mana.
WHat if the minigoyf had all the same wording but was only affected by one of the graveyards?
Yours - you have to work to make it stronger and theres benefits when your opponent put stuff in your GY.
Theirs - Extra benefit for putting stuff in their GY, punishes GY based decks.
So a few people have responded with some constructive criticisms leading me to believe there is plenty of design space for "an efficient beater". Obviously nothing will be comparable to Goyf but that's sort of the point. I think there is middle ground between not rocking the boat of the secondary market and increasing the supply of staples (print new ones as opposed to just reprinting old ones.) To bring it around to the OP, if the "best" cards are mistakes, what would they look like if WotC had known? Would those cards be worth having? Granted, there are most likely impacts on Standard that would mean they would never enter the Modern cardpool, but let's set that aside for now.
I'm fairly sure it was supposed to be constructed. Drafting didnt work in the early sets due to the ability to get something like 7 basic lands in a booster. Garfield thought the broken cards would be balanced simply by an inability to obtain many copies of rares. He did not realise how popular the game would become.
What power-creep? We just experienced the weakest block of all time.
- valanarch
Its kind of a cycle, when Wizards thinks the power level is too high, they'll drop it like a rock, which is where we are considering the power levels of the last few standard sets, they're not gonna keep it down forever, so the inevitable creep is on the way bring the power level back up.
Fair enough, though I can't recall the last time that they dropped it this far. Literally every Standard block since Ice Age has had more Vintage/Legacy/Extended/Modern playable cards than Theros block.
The power of a set is not determined purely by how many cards made it into eternal formats, masques was incredibly low powered as was kamigawa.
How else do you determine the power of a set if not by its lasting legacy?
Power level is a relative concept. While Theros block is considered low power it's because its mechanic is very hermetic, it lacks synergy with cards from outside blocks. At the same time if you play with constructed decks in current standard you wont feel that lack of power. Also some cards may not fit current legacy strategies, but might become very strong in future ones. R&D admitted that it generally doesn't design cards with eternal formats in mind, so judging power level just by legacy standard is incomplete.
As a side note I really like using hermetic block as a way of keeping power creep under control.
Yes, power-level is relative. But the overall power-level is shown from the perspective of larger formats. And in that regard Theros has failed miserably.
Well, I cannot agree in 100% (I just don't like genealization of that level) but from your point of view you are 100% correct.
If Theros power level / hermeticity was planned as a way of breking power creep then it's success, but it can still be bad design like Kamigawa.
So a few people have responded with some constructive criticisms leading me to believe there is plenty of design space for "an efficient beater". Obviously nothing will be comparable to Goyf but that's sort of the point. I think there is middle ground between not rocking the boat of the secondary market and increasing the supply of staples (print new ones as opposed to just reprinting old ones.) To bring it around to the OP, if the "best" cards are mistakes, what would they look like if WotC had known? Would those cards be worth having? Granted, there are most likely impacts on Standard that would mean they would never enter the Modern cardpool, but let's set that aside for now.
The problem with introducing less effective goyf alternatives is that they just make goyf's superiority more and more obvious. So the only way of fixing it (beside banning it) would be to make it more available. MM failed miserably on that front.
I'm still convinced that there's plenty of power in Theros, even if most of it isn't exactly going to spawn a Modern deck immediately. They'll print something that breaks something it does, eventually. My money's on either Heroic or Constellation. My hope is on tribal minotaurs.
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Will you or your opponent play spells during the game? Are you using green or black with fetches? Then you shove him in.
But are not those the exact type of cards older/eternal formats revolve around? A majority of played cards in older formats didnt really do anything in Standard. (I didnt say all)
Will you or your opponent play spells during the game? Are you using green or black with fetches? Then you shove him in.
But are not those the exact type of cards older/eternal formats revolve around? A majority of played cards in older formats didnt really do anything in Standard. (I didnt say all)
Most of the Modern-playable cards greatly affected Standard. See Lightning Bolt, Thoughtseize, Goyf, Splinter Twin, Bob, Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Plating, Bitterblossom, Deceiver Exarch, Mistbind Clique, Vendilion Clique, Birthing Pod, Delver of Secrets, Cryptic Command, Lingering Souls, Mana Leak, Remand, Snapcaster Mage, Kitchen Finks, Valakut, Primeval Titan, and many other cards.
I think to classify all of the aforementioned iconic, powerful cards as "mistakes" is a bit silly, even if it is by the admission of WotC themselves. I say this because the word "mistake" implies that these cards should never have been printed as is, and thus the game should never have had to endure their existence, with the ultimate implication being that the game would be better off without these cards. Is this really true? Would players really prefer that these crazy, iconic cards never existed and be replaced by more reasonable or even unplayable/boring versions of themselves?
Try this little thought experiment: Just add 1 mana to the cost of each of the cards that are being discussed as "mistakes", then reevaluate each. Is it still good? For the most part, yes, they will still be decent. Is it playable? In some cases, yes. Is it iconic and exciting? No, not at all. If you start watering down the cards even more than this rather miniscule change, they become indistinguishable from boring, weak cards that few people would even give a second glance.
I, for one, am happy that every once and a while when a tough balancing decision comes up at WotC, for whatever reason, they decide to round a card's power level up rather than down. If this causes "mistakes" that end up defining formats such as Modern and Legacy, then so be it. I will admit that it is somewhat annoying when said "mistakes" warp formats so heavily so as to make them less fun, but that's what bannings are for. As for what actually warrants a banning, that is another issue entirely.
Well there is certainly a difference between cards that were designed and then ended up much more powerful than thought and cards there are really mistakes. Snapcaster Mage or Dark Confidant for example were planned the way they are. I just dont know if Wizards underestimated the impact of those cards a bit. Tarmogoyf on the other hand was clearly a mistake that Maro admitted.
Here is the relevant quote:
"I turned the card in as a 2G */*. While I'm a huge fan of Lhurgoyf, I never liked the *+1 toughness. I feel like it added inelegance for the sole purpose of keeping the card alive on an empty graveyard, so when I made my Lhurgoyf riff, I made it */* instead. Ironically, the card got kicked out of the file to make room for a planeswalker (the card that would later become the first Garruk). When we pushed off the planeswalkers, Tarmogoyf got stuck back into the file. Mike Turian, Future Sight's lead developer, recreated the card from memory and just assumed it had */*+1 because it was copying Lhurgoyf. Mike also dropped the card from 2G to 1G because he felt as it was "just a beater without evasion" it didn't need to cost three mana. The rest, as they say, is history."
Domaingoyf GG
domain - ~'s power and toughness is equal to the number of basic land types among lands you control.
*/*
the mana cost is fixed(more reasonable?) so that on turn 2 its no bigger than a 3/3 unless you played a mana dork turn one this is assuming you can fetch up G,x,y,z basics. also removing the additional toughness it now dies to bolt more easily and now they have to actually trade in combat, unlike goyf. I remember hearing the phrase "the best thing to block a goyf with was another goyf" which is true haha.
So if a 5/5 for gg essentially isn't enough for you guys you can drop domain and replace it with p/t = land types. Then the biggest it can get is 10/10 with the basics + dessert, gate, locus, lair, and urza. Now that sounds like a challenge
Domaingoyf GG
domain - ~'s power and toughness is equal to the number of basic land types among lands you control.
*/*
the mana cost is fixed(more reasonable?) so that on turn 2 its no bigger than a 3/3 unless you played a mana dork turn one this is assuming you can fetch up G,x,y,z basics. also removing the additional toughness it now dies to bolt more easily and now they have to actually trade in combat, unlike goyf. I remember hearing the phrase "the best thing to block a goyf with was another goyf" which is true haha.
So if a 5/5 for gg essentially isn't enough for you guys you can drop domain and replace it with p/t = land types. Then the biggest it can get is 10/10 with the basics + dessert, gate, locus, lair, and urza. Now that sounds like a challenge
This doesn't work from a flavor perspective, since 'goyfs only care about graveyards, not things in play.
MaRo has said that Snapcaster should be red, in retrospect.
Except Flash is a staple of Blue, flashback comes in quite a few colours and general resource manipulation is Blue... so I would say it is correct in Blue.
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My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
That would make a decent card, right along the curve, but it isn't a Goyf anymore. it doesn't do what a llhurgoyf does, so it hurts flavor. I wouldn't want to see one printed that didn't do what all the rest of them do to some extent.
Moreover, itd be more of a Papa-Nacatl than a mini-Goyf
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
'Goyf for Core Set President 2016
Regardless, it should be at rare I agree, end of story.
*Edit: my browser hadn't updated so I replied to an extremely old post (a few hours). Most of what I replied with has already been said, so please feel free to ignore my late response below if you don't want to re-hash what others have already said. Sorry about that!
A fun idea, but let's examine that a bit more.
The above card is way too good for uncommon, and arguably better than goyf because you are guaranteed a 4/5 on turn two/in the early game if you draw it. That card isn't dependent on any other cards or interactions to be good. The graveyard reference is very much relevant, as there is a lot of options out there for graveyard hate that end up hitting goyf as collateral damage. The graveyard provides another way to interact with a Goyf besides spot removal. While goyf may gain strength from the graveyard, it is also a weakness and something that can be used against it.
The above card would also further homogenize what you are forced to play if you splash green, as you don't even have to play fetches or discard for it to be good, it's already a straight up 4/5 for 1 and a G.
Then if they did print it, what's to then stop someone from playing 4 goyfs and 4 not-goyfs for a total of 8 2cc creatures that are often 4/5 or bigger by turns 3-4. And don't say the solution is to ban goyf, as that would be something that would actually cause people to quit the format by destroying any sense of stability in the format or faith in consistency by WOTC.
What about something closer to this?
not-goyf V2
Uncommon
GG
2/3
(Not-goyf gets +2/+2 as long as you control a basic forest)
Not nearly as splashable and really forces you to be in green to play it.
At the end of the day though, there is absolutely no way that one of the most efficient dumb beaters in the format should or will be printed at uncommon. Rare is absolutely fine, and is also where I think everyone can agree that Tarmogoyf should be. For added context, this has nothing to do with pricing. I own a set of goyfs and I would be just fine with a re-print at rare and a massive drop in price so that everyone can get theirs as well who needs them without selling a kidney.
I respect your personal opinion, but many would disagree.
Goyf and SFM have been called mistakes by Wotc.
While this is true, DRS was not a mistake. Wizards said that they intentionally gave it 2 toughness so that it would die to less removal. They chose to allow it to affect all graveyards. That was not a mistake. Also, SFM wasn't truly broken until Batterskull, which was just WotC saying "We know that this is going to break Stoneforge Mystic, but we are not going to let Living Weapon go on without it being good. If it needs a ban, then so be it.".
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This exactly, SFM was broken/a mistake only in the sense that it was just a matter of time until something came along that made it completely broken. SFM and other similar cards tend to be either banned or at risk because they can interact with other cards that did or may be coming out that were not directly designed with the paired interaction in mind.
I'm also curious what their wording was regarding goyf in relation to it being a mistake? The only thing I can think of is that they did not account for the additional card types that would allow for it to grow as big as it does. I also think that people get caught up in the price and desirability of the card, and often feel if they can't acquire them or don't want to, that the card should just be banned. I wonder if it was available to anyone for $20 or heck, even $50, if we would see the incessant calling for its ban (my guess is it would not near the frequency we see it at now).
Maro wanted to make it not get the +1 toughness boost and be a 3 mana creature. Development misread it as an x/x+1 (because Lhurghoyf is like that) and pushed it down to 2 mana.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yours - you have to work to make it stronger and theres benefits when your opponent put stuff in your GY.
Theirs - Extra benefit for putting stuff in their GY, punishes GY based decks.
If Theros power level / hermeticity was planned as a way of breking power creep then it's success, but it can still be bad design like Kamigawa.
The problem with introducing less effective goyf alternatives is that they just make goyf's superiority more and more obvious. So the only way of fixing it (beside banning it) would be to make it more available. MM failed miserably on that front.
Will you or your opponent play spells during the game? Are you using green or black with fetches? Then you shove him in.
But are not those the exact type of cards older/eternal formats revolve around? A majority of played cards in older formats didnt really do anything in Standard. (I didnt say all)
Most of the Modern-playable cards greatly affected Standard. See Lightning Bolt, Thoughtseize, Goyf, Splinter Twin, Bob, Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Plating, Bitterblossom, Deceiver Exarch, Mistbind Clique, Vendilion Clique, Birthing Pod, Delver of Secrets, Cryptic Command, Lingering Souls, Mana Leak, Remand, Snapcaster Mage, Kitchen Finks, Valakut, Primeval Titan, and many other cards.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Try this little thought experiment: Just add 1 mana to the cost of each of the cards that are being discussed as "mistakes", then reevaluate each. Is it still good? For the most part, yes, they will still be decent. Is it playable? In some cases, yes. Is it iconic and exciting? No, not at all. If you start watering down the cards even more than this rather miniscule change, they become indistinguishable from boring, weak cards that few people would even give a second glance.
I, for one, am happy that every once and a while when a tough balancing decision comes up at WotC, for whatever reason, they decide to round a card's power level up rather than down. If this causes "mistakes" that end up defining formats such as Modern and Legacy, then so be it. I will admit that it is somewhat annoying when said "mistakes" warp formats so heavily so as to make them less fun, but that's what bannings are for. As for what actually warrants a banning, that is another issue entirely.
Snapcaster Mage or Dark Confidant for example were planned the way they are. I just dont know if Wizards underestimated the impact of those cards a bit.
Tarmogoyf on the other hand was clearly a mistake that Maro admitted.
Here is the relevant quote:
"I turned the card in as a 2G */*. While I'm a huge fan of Lhurgoyf, I never liked the *+1 toughness. I feel like it added inelegance for the sole purpose of keeping the card alive on an empty graveyard, so when I made my Lhurgoyf riff, I made it */* instead. Ironically, the card got kicked out of the file to make room for a planeswalker (the card that would later become the first Garruk). When we pushed off the planeswalkers, Tarmogoyf got stuck back into the file. Mike Turian, Future Sight's lead developer, recreated the card from memory and just assumed it had */*+1 because it was copying Lhurgoyf. Mike also dropped the card from 2G to 1G because he felt as it was "just a beater without evasion" it didn't need to cost three mana. The rest, as they say, is history."
domain - ~'s power and toughness is equal to the number of basic land types among lands you control.
*/*
the mana cost is fixed(more reasonable?) so that on turn 2 its no bigger than a 3/3 unless you played a mana dork turn one this is assuming you can fetch up G,x,y,z basics. also removing the additional toughness it now dies to bolt more easily and now they have to actually trade in combat, unlike goyf. I remember hearing the phrase "the best thing to block a goyf with was another goyf" which is true haha.
So if a 5/5 for gg essentially isn't enough for you guys you can drop domain and replace it with p/t = land types. Then the biggest it can get is 10/10 with the basics + dessert, gate, locus, lair, and urza. Now that sounds like a challenge
This doesn't work from a flavor perspective, since 'goyfs only care about graveyards, not things in play.
Except Flash is a staple of Blue, flashback comes in quite a few colours and general resource manipulation is Blue... so I would say it is correct in Blue.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R