This card needs to see more play. If you don't know why simply ask me a match up you would like me to play out a scenario for you and I will show how it can fit in your deck. Tell me your deck and match up you want me to explain and defend my position on this.
I'm saying Pithing Needle is a main deck card for almost every deck in modern.
OK well obviously you know the card is good vs every other match up because you gave me a match up that its horrible in. If that's the only match up you can think of that its bad in then I ask you to reconsider your sideboard opinion or find me more matches where Needle is bad like it is in this match.
However this being said the card can still be useful as a 1 of in the storm deck. Against any other match up you gain a board stall against other decks just incase they find a way to stop you, target they're main fetch land and try to get them mana screwed. What happens in a game where your opponent doesn't draw land to cast spells? They lose every time.
The use of needle is very limited in this deck and match up but still has room for a 1 of in the main. If you go off it doesn't matter that you had 1 of and if you don't draw it, it doesn't matter that you had a 1 of.
If your playing against storm and have more Needle's than 1 you end up siding in against storm in almost every match up anyways so the needle would come out for storm sideboard hate anyways. Once you know you're up against storm you can still even keep in needles and name Scalding Tarn. Good luck getting to three mana with a small land base and no ability to fetch.
How much do you think this would slow down a storm deck?
The storm vs storm would be 1 of. So say second match you have a first turn Needle and name Scalding Tarn on the other player. Potentially even first game say you drop a turn 1 needle on the play. Depending on they're turn 1 land they play you've effectively made all Tarn's dead cards if you see a Steam Vent, which is all your looking to name with storm anyways is fetch lands.
So in the worse possible match up for the card I've found a pretty strong use for the card. The potential to effectively have a player stuck on 1 or 2 mana is nothing to ignore. Especially for 1 mana and 1 card slot.
Any deck with Fetch lands it can be utilized against. Naya zoo runs 8 I think. And no way to remove needle. Game one depending on how good you are at finding out what you're playing against you can figure out what a player is doing first turn and then name a card. The match ups you've mentioned are not dead cards in needle but just less powerful. I'd like to point out you've picked 4 decks of a possible 20 say. So 75% of the meta you'll skip using a card that plays vs the rest.
If you don't know what to name, do a search when you see a first turn play, then check on the card in mtggoldfish and what deck would play that. Most times based off the fetch they play and turn 1 spell they play you can make an educated guess.
My biggest issue with having pithing needle in the main deck is not knowing what to name game one. If it's in my opening hand I can't cast it turn one and as I find out what my opponent is playing it may slow me down too much to cast it while still doing my thing. I think modern is too fast a format to have a potentially dead card in your deck G1.
Edit: Also seems pretty awful against Naya Zoo
I agree Modern is a fast format. But ideally when deck building you put in cards that net card advantage to win. When a card nets card advantage over such a large portion of the meta it can be played main board because it will have more use against more match ups then it will be dead. Some decks don't play any creatures but it doesn't stop people from main decking creature removal.
If you focus on the 3 match ups the card is bad in you'll never see the 20 its good in.
There's targets for a Needling, but maindecking Needle means playing a hate-trinkets sort of deck; just going to say good luck with that.
Card has its uses, but if you're going to maindeck it, you're probably better off with Phyrexian Revoker first since it's the hatebear equivalent and can actually clock for lethal while Needle just faffs about short of Tezzing it into a critter.
Again in aggro Needle as a 1 of can save your aggro plan. In control needle as a 2 or 3 of can save you from an aggro plan and stop a combo plan. Its a stall card like any other removal card. Taking care of a threat to slow the opponent down or stop them from doing something.
Yeah, except in Pod they can just Chord of Calling their Midrange plan into action. OR cast a Harmonic Sliver and bust your needle down.
Are you really bringing up the fact they will waste a cord on finding a sliver just to remove 1 needle. Again thats pretty good value. I don't know what else you use for a sideboard against pod but the strongest is putting an end to the search engine of pod. A recent GP was won and a player had stony silence in his sideboard. Should he remove that because they can cord out a harmonic sliver.
Yeah, except in Pod they can just Chord of Calling their Midrange plan into action. OR cast a Harmonic Sliver and bust your needle down.
Are you really bringing up the fact they will waste a cord on finding a sliver just to remove 1 needle. Again thats pretty good value. I don't know what else you use for a sideboard against pod but the strongest is putting an end to the search engine of pod. A recent GP was won and a player had stony silence in his sideboard. Should he remove that because they can cord out a harmonic sliver.
The Stony Silence was for Affinity. It is just coincidently good against Pod. Also, I think that you meant the Pro Tour, not the Grand Prix.
Yeah, except in Pod they can just Chord of Calling their Midrange plan into action. OR cast a Harmonic Sliver and bust your needle down.
Are you really bringing up the fact they will waste a cord on finding a sliver just to remove 1 needle. Again thats pretty good value. I don't know what else you use for a sideboard against pod but the strongest is putting an end to the search engine of pod. A recent GP was won and a player had stony silence in his sideboard. Should he remove that because they can cord out a harmonic sliver.
Reading is tech, I said OR,
They can just Chord their midrange plan into action *OR* Cast a harmonic sliver and bust up your needle.
If I understand correctly, Pod WANTS to cast Harmonic Sliver anyways, you're just giving them more of a reason to.
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As I play control I don't have a problem with them trying to cord anything out. Strongest thing I can do against them is to have them top deck while I gain card advantage.
Not sure about other decks and how they need to deal with POD but I imagine its still quite the same.
You're dodging my point, Pod wouldn't be one of the best decks in the format if it just folded to one card, that deck has SO MANY avenues of attack, trying to lock them down is near to impossible.
Oh, you Pithing Needled Pod? Ok, too bad I casted it last turn now I don't get to use it, my turn? Ok, Harmonic Sliver, blow up Pithing needle, use pod ability.
Face it dude, you're not going to hype up Pithing needle, face it, it was a BAD INVESTMENT. You would've done better using that money to buy a Paper Underground Sea...
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Again I play control so I doubt once I drop a needle on Pod they will cast or draw the one threat they need to get pod back online.
You paint a perfect scenario where you always have the exact counter to Needle in a deck that runs 1 of.
Yeah you "can" have a sliver in hand. I "can" have a counter spell. Or another Needle plus a counter spell.
I will also give up on a card like Needle when I look at a daily and I don't see the top 4-0 decks having 2+ targets I can use it on repeatably.
I'm also getting a deck idea for needle with the 2/1 rager needle creep and thinking of seeing what the tezzeret line carries.
Beyond this I just realized you're arguing a sideboard card that Pod has a 1 of and I carry 3 Needle's main board. So you have a 1 of answer to my needle second match when first match I run over you because I turn off Pod then name Gavony, Counterspell your Qasali and potentially counter or needle your spike feeder.
Ignoring the implications of needling fetchlands (which is really not a strong interaction), Imwould be really interested how you try to justify having a needle in any matchup vs Jund. Junds entire goal is to one for one you until you die to superior card quality, and throwing away a card to turn off liliana (which is the only real target and Im ight not even draw) situationally until I abrupt decay it seems absolutely terrible. I have yet to lose a game where my opponent brought in pithing needle.
Again I play control so I doubt once I drop a needle on Pod they will cast or draw the one threat they need to get pod back online.
You paint a perfect scenario where you always have the exact counter to Needle in a deck that runs 1 of.
Yeah you "can" have a sliver in hand. I "can" have a counter spell. Or another Needle plus a counter spell.
I will also give up on a card like Needle when I look at a daily and I don't see the top 4-0 decks having 2+ targets I can use it on repeatably.
I'm also getting a deck idea for needle with the 2/1 rager needle creep and thinking of seeing what the tezzeret line carries.
Dude, you're seriously bumming me out, I hate seeing someone blow all their money on something hoping to make a profit and clearly it's not going to happen.
When decks have more than 1-2 targets to use it on, that's when Needle gets WORSE... If the deck RELIES on 1 card to win, then it's an all-star.
I play Legacy Affinity, and even without sideboard hate, I've yet to lose a game to Pithing Needle.
Oh, needle on Cranial Plating, I'll just beat you down and win with Tezzeret.
Oh, Needle on Tezzeret? I'll just beat you down with cranial plating flyers.
Oh, Needle on Arcbound Ravager? I'll just beat you down and win with Tezzeret.
Seriously, dude, stop.
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Really, the best card for shutting down pod is Torpor Orb, not only does it shut down all their creatures ETB abilities, but it also helps against things like Snapcaster Mage, etc.
Torpor Orb actually just rose in price a little bit, perhaps that's where your money should've been?
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Really, the best card for shutting down pod is Torpor Orb, not only does it shut down all their creatures ETB abilities, but it also helps against things like Snapcaster Mage, etc.
Torpor Orb actually just rose in price a little bit, perhaps that's where your money should've been?
Ignoring the implications of needling fetchlands (which is really not a strong interaction), Imwould be really interested how you try to justify having a needle in any matchup vs Jund. Junds entire goal is to one for one you until you die to superior card quality, and throwing away a card to turn off liliana (which is the only real target and Im ight not even draw) situationally until I abrupt decay it seems absolutely terrible. I have yet to lose a game where my opponent brought in pithing needle.
I'm fine with Jund using the one card I can't counter on a needle as it saves them from being able to use it on my creatures. Still does not hurt having 1 needle main board. I'm fine with a 1 for 1 on needle. In the deck I play its no different than a thoughtseize for me. You also argue situation. So lets indulge this situation you paint. You may not draw Lilianna at all. OK So you may draw here and not draw Abrupt Decay. Then for the next however many turns it takes you to find an answer for needle you play without her. Depending on your decks numbers you could draw more Lilianna's and no removal for it.
If I'm an aggressive deck I'm also fine playing a 1 of needle and potentially seeing a thoughtseize and having the needle being targeted from my hand or I play it name verdent cata or Lilianna so its a target for a removal while my aggro goes to work.
So to make this quite simple I just looked at a daily top 6 players with a record of 4-0. In 4 match ups a 1 of needle could of shut down 8 Garruck Wildspeaker, 4 Knight of the Reliquary, and 4 Splinter Twin. With no way to remove the card. 2 of those matches the 1 of Needle would of been a complete dead card vs Burn and Boggles.
What does a good deck builder do however plays the percentages!
So I would have a small percent in 4 of my matches to draw a card that would completely answer 4 of in they're decks. Beyond that I have heavy card advantage spells that kill creatures or counterspell allowing me to draw into needle.
What I've learned from all this is the original number I was thinking of 2 or 3 main in control is actually wrong and more like 1. The original number I was thinking in aggro is dead bang at 1 of because all aggro wants to do is kill. A 1 of needle in many situations can prevent the other player from going off and give aggro enough time to kill.
So far as I've learned to play needle in modern. Its a 1 of in pretty much any deck. Against some match ups if you're weak to them you can add more in the sideboard.
As I'm a control deck and I do poorly against Tron I can use 1 main and probably 2 more board. This will not overly hinder my other matches but also give me a huge potential in first game to gain a 4 for 1.
I'm unsure how legacy really works all in all but I imagine a 1 of main board needle would have a use against most match ups. Likely without an answer in the first game as well.
Ya you can go around the card with other cards. You do the same vs 1 removal spell like Swords to Plow. It doesn't change the fact that in an aggro deck naming your plating with needle could mean as you work around to beat down with something else they needed that turn to kill you. In a control deck the 4 for 1 I just gained with needle means I have answers for every other attempt you make to play around it and I win as the game draws out.
I've learned from my talks in modern that a 1 of needle main board in modern gives me chances first game to get 4 for 1's with no answer from the other player. I'm unsure what it would be like in legacy but I imagine you as infinity have been against a sneak and show deck that cast an emrakul through sneak attack to win against you. Had you had 1 needle main board you could have named sneak attack and been able to aggro out a win.
The card definitely has use as a 1 of in almost every deck in modern with a FEW matches it being a 1 for 1 or a dead card however playing percentages your gaining more matches that favor needle main then are losing and your not going all in on needle either. Like I said I've learned its a 1 of.
In standard what I'm seeing is that in most matches it can actually be a 2 of main board. Mainly because so many decks play Mutavault and planeswalkers run rampant in standard.
If the card can be a 2 of in standard and a 1 of in modern main board with sideboard applications AND its already a 2 of sideboard in many legacy decks then its not even a far stretch to say that a 1 of needle in most decks would prove to increase the odd win from a deck.
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I'm saying Pithing Needle is a main deck card for almost every deck in modern.
However this being said the card can still be useful as a 1 of in the storm deck. Against any other match up you gain a board stall against other decks just incase they find a way to stop you, target they're main fetch land and try to get them mana screwed. What happens in a game where your opponent doesn't draw land to cast spells? They lose every time.
The use of needle is very limited in this deck and match up but still has room for a 1 of in the main. If you go off it doesn't matter that you had 1 of and if you don't draw it, it doesn't matter that you had a 1 of.
If your playing against storm and have more Needle's than 1 you end up siding in against storm in almost every match up anyways so the needle would come out for storm sideboard hate anyways. Once you know you're up against storm you can still even keep in needles and name Scalding Tarn. Good luck getting to three mana with a small land base and no ability to fetch.
How much do you think this would slow down a storm deck?
The storm vs storm would be 1 of. So say second match you have a first turn Needle and name Scalding Tarn on the other player. Potentially even first game say you drop a turn 1 needle on the play. Depending on they're turn 1 land they play you've effectively made all Tarn's dead cards if you see a Steam Vent, which is all your looking to name with storm anyways is fetch lands.
So in the worse possible match up for the card I've found a pretty strong use for the card. The potential to effectively have a player stuck on 1 or 2 mana is nothing to ignore. Especially for 1 mana and 1 card slot.
If you don't know what to name, do a search when you see a first turn play, then check on the card in mtggoldfish and what deck would play that. Most times based off the fetch they play and turn 1 spell they play you can make an educated guess.
Also yes Living end its a dead card too.
Again though your talking about 3 decks that are a small percentage of the overall meta.
I agree Modern is a fast format. But ideally when deck building you put in cards that net card advantage to win. When a card nets card advantage over such a large portion of the meta it can be played main board because it will have more use against more match ups then it will be dead. Some decks don't play any creatures but it doesn't stop people from main decking creature removal.
If you focus on the 3 match ups the card is bad in you'll never see the 20 its good in.
Card has its uses, but if you're going to maindeck it, you're probably better off with Phyrexian Revoker first since it's the hatebear equivalent and can actually clock for lethal while Needle just faffs about short of Tezzing it into a critter.
Again in aggro Needle as a 1 of can save your aggro plan. In control needle as a 2 or 3 of can save you from an aggro plan and stop a combo plan. Its a stall card like any other removal card. Taking care of a threat to slow the opponent down or stop them from doing something.
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OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Are you really bringing up the fact they will waste a cord on finding a sliver just to remove 1 needle. Again thats pretty good value. I don't know what else you use for a sideboard against pod but the strongest is putting an end to the search engine of pod. A recent GP was won and a player had stony silence in his sideboard. Should he remove that because they can cord out a harmonic sliver.
The Stony Silence was for Affinity. It is just coincidently good against Pod. Also, I think that you meant the Pro Tour, not the Grand Prix.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Reading is tech, I said OR,
They can just Chord their midrange plan into action *OR* Cast a harmonic sliver and bust up your needle.
If I understand correctly, Pod WANTS to cast Harmonic Sliver anyways, you're just giving them more of a reason to.
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Not sure about other decks and how they need to deal with POD but I imagine its still quite the same.
Oh, you Pithing Needled Pod? Ok, too bad I casted it last turn now I don't get to use it, my turn? Ok, Harmonic Sliver, blow up Pithing needle, use pod ability.
Face it dude, you're not going to hype up Pithing needle, face it, it was a BAD INVESTMENT. You would've done better using that money to buy a Paper Underground Sea...
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You paint a perfect scenario where you always have the exact counter to Needle in a deck that runs 1 of.
Yeah you "can" have a sliver in hand. I "can" have a counter spell. Or another Needle plus a counter spell.
I will also give up on a card like Needle when I look at a daily and I don't see the top 4-0 decks having 2+ targets I can use it on repeatably.
I'm also getting a deck idea for needle with the 2/1 rager needle creep and thinking of seeing what the tezzeret line carries.
Beyond this I just realized you're arguing a sideboard card that Pod has a 1 of and I carry 3 Needle's main board. So you have a 1 of answer to my needle second match when first match I run over you because I turn off Pod then name Gavony, Counterspell your Qasali and potentially counter or needle your spike feeder.
To be fair, it can hit Jund's manlands.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Dude, you're seriously bumming me out, I hate seeing someone blow all their money on something hoping to make a profit and clearly it's not going to happen.
When decks have more than 1-2 targets to use it on, that's when Needle gets WORSE... If the deck RELIES on 1 card to win, then it's an all-star.
I play Legacy Affinity, and even without sideboard hate, I've yet to lose a game to Pithing Needle.
Oh, needle on Cranial Plating, I'll just beat you down and win with Tezzeret.
Oh, Needle on Tezzeret? I'll just beat you down with cranial plating flyers.
Oh, Needle on Arcbound Ravager? I'll just beat you down and win with Tezzeret.
Seriously, dude, stop.
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Torpor Orb actually just rose in price a little bit, perhaps that's where your money should've been?
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Actually, the best Anti-Pod cards are Grafdigger's Cage and Anger of the Gods.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm fine with Jund using the one card I can't counter on a needle as it saves them from being able to use it on my creatures. Still does not hurt having 1 needle main board. I'm fine with a 1 for 1 on needle. In the deck I play its no different than a thoughtseize for me. You also argue situation. So lets indulge this situation you paint. You may not draw Lilianna at all. OK So you may draw here and not draw Abrupt Decay. Then for the next however many turns it takes you to find an answer for needle you play without her. Depending on your decks numbers you could draw more Lilianna's and no removal for it.
If I'm an aggressive deck I'm also fine playing a 1 of needle and potentially seeing a thoughtseize and having the needle being targeted from my hand or I play it name verdent cata or Lilianna so its a target for a removal while my aggro goes to work.
What does a good deck builder do however plays the percentages!
So I would have a small percent in 4 of my matches to draw a card that would completely answer 4 of in they're decks. Beyond that I have heavy card advantage spells that kill creatures or counterspell allowing me to draw into needle.
What I've learned from all this is the original number I was thinking of 2 or 3 main in control is actually wrong and more like 1. The original number I was thinking in aggro is dead bang at 1 of because all aggro wants to do is kill. A 1 of needle in many situations can prevent the other player from going off and give aggro enough time to kill.
So far as I've learned to play needle in modern. Its a 1 of in pretty much any deck. Against some match ups if you're weak to them you can add more in the sideboard.
As I'm a control deck and I do poorly against Tron I can use 1 main and probably 2 more board. This will not overly hinder my other matches but also give me a huge potential in first game to gain a 4 for 1.
Ya you can go around the card with other cards. You do the same vs 1 removal spell like Swords to Plow. It doesn't change the fact that in an aggro deck naming your plating with needle could mean as you work around to beat down with something else they needed that turn to kill you. In a control deck the 4 for 1 I just gained with needle means I have answers for every other attempt you make to play around it and I win as the game draws out.
I've learned from my talks in modern that a 1 of needle main board in modern gives me chances first game to get 4 for 1's with no answer from the other player. I'm unsure what it would be like in legacy but I imagine you as infinity have been against a sneak and show deck that cast an emrakul through sneak attack to win against you. Had you had 1 needle main board you could have named sneak attack and been able to aggro out a win.
The card definitely has use as a 1 of in almost every deck in modern with a FEW matches it being a 1 for 1 or a dead card however playing percentages your gaining more matches that favor needle main then are losing and your not going all in on needle either. Like I said I've learned its a 1 of.
In standard what I'm seeing is that in most matches it can actually be a 2 of main board. Mainly because so many decks play Mutavault and planeswalkers run rampant in standard.
If the card can be a 2 of in standard and a 1 of in modern main board with sideboard applications AND its already a 2 of sideboard in many legacy decks then its not even a far stretch to say that a 1 of needle in most decks would prove to increase the odd win from a deck.