Which cards would have to be banned? Other than the Storm cards (just banning Grapeshot, Tendrils of Agony, Mind's Desire, and Brain Freeze makes more sense than banning all of the good rituals and cantrips), Entomb, and another one of the Dredge cards (Bridge from Below or Ichorid) seems like it would cover most of it. Also, I am saying that it would be done with a large amount of unbans of the fair cards. The banned list would be smaller overall.
Anything that speeds up Storm, Anything that allows dredge to be a deck, all rituals (because cheap rituals speed up the game and break the turn 4 rule). Thats just off the top of my head. If Wotc kept with the 25%-35% domination clause, they would still be banning cards every 3 months until they got the format to fall with in Wotcs idea for the format.
The Storm problem is solved by what I've been advocating in the Banned List discussion for some time. Ban Grapeshot (and for Overextended ban Tendrils of Agony, Mind's Desire, and Brain Freeze as well). Storm can still use the much worse Dragonstorm and the slower, creature-based Empty the Warrens. But without the possibility of an easy, cheap win condition, cards like Burning Wish, Cabal Ritual, Ponder, Preordain, and Seething Song would be safe.
The Dredge problem is simply solved by having Dread Return and Ichorid be banned. Dredge can't break the turn 4 rule with just Bridge from Below and Cabal Therapy, even if it has access to Breakthrough and Cephalid Colloseum. Dredgevinve doesn't seem like it would be too much of a problem either (though I admit that I could be wrong here).
Without Storm as a deck, the rituals aren't a problem. Seething Song didn't break anything other than Storm. Cabal Ritual doesn't have many worthwhile things to accelerate into. And Chrome Mox does not allow consistent turn 3 wins (and if it did, either Sword of the Meek or Dark Depths would be another fine unban choice). Those are the only 3 rituals that would be added in my version of Overextended (Rite of Flame can stay banned).
As for dominance, while that might be a problem, the existence of stronger control and tempo cards would help to create a balanced metagame that can correct itself.
Still too close to Legacy lite for my liking. Also you are hoping the other cards would balance things out. Free anything usually warps the format.
Which cards would have to be banned? Other than the Storm cards (just banning Grapeshot, Tendrils of Agony, Mind's Desire, and Brain Freeze makes more sense than banning all of the good rituals and cantrips), Entomb, and another one of the Dredge cards (Bridge from Below or Ichorid) seems like it would cover most of it. Also, I am saying that it would be done with a large amount of unbans of the fair cards. The banned list would be smaller overall.
Anything that speeds up Storm, Anything that allows dredge to be a deck, all rituals (because cheap rituals speed up the game and break the turn 4 rule). Thats just off the top of my head. If Wotc kept with the 25%-35% domination clause, they would still be banning cards every 3 months until they got the format to fall with in Wotcs idea for the format.
The Storm problem is solved by what I've been advocating in the Banned List discussion for some time. Ban Grapeshot (and for Overextended ban Tendrils of Agony, Mind's Desire, and Brain Freeze as well). Storm can still use the much worse Dragonstorm and the slower, creature-based Empty the Warrens. But without the possibility of an easy, cheap win condition, cards like Burning Wish, Cabal Ritual, Ponder, Preordain, and Seething Song would be safe.
The Dredge problem is simply solved by having Dread Return and Ichorid be banned. Dredge can't break the turn 4 rule with just Bridge from Below and Cabal Therapy, even if it has access to Breakthrough and Cephalid Colloseum. Dredgevinve doesn't seem like it would be too much of a problem either (though I admit that I could be wrong here).
Without Storm as a deck, the rituals aren't a problem. Seething Song didn't break anything other than Storm. Cabal Ritual doesn't have many worthwhile things to accelerate into. And Chrome Mox does not allow consistent turn 3 wins (and if it did, either Sword of the Meek or Dark Depths would be another fine unban choice). Those are the only 3 rituals that would be added in my version of Overextended (Rite of Flame can stay banned).
As for dominance, while that might be a problem, the existence of stronger control and tempo cards would help to create a balanced metagame that can correct itself.
Still too close to Legacy lite for my liking. Also you are hoping the other cards would balance things out. Free anything usually warps the format.
Everyone has their own preferences. Also, who is saying anything about free anything?
Fundamentally banning grapeshot for a swap with song does nothing to the PA decks that have existed. Engine combos are broken from the engines not the storm cards, High tide originally used Mind over Matter to make you draw your deck, but the problem cards are high tide/time spiral/and briefly academy. In the same vein an active ascension in a deck built right can usually draw most of its deck from a serum visions (jon finkel's words not mine), mana morphose is draw 2 add 2 mana. Once you have an engine established the kill can be anything, especially with grapeshot needing 20 spells played the engine is established for the deck to exist.
I'd concede that tendrils based storm decks sometimes only needing storm of 6 or 7, means the card can be broken just by playing your hand and firing off tendrils. If you have a deck capable of, in one turn firing off 20 spells in reasonable time, and now you want to give it more rituals and more cantrips? If you can't find a way to kill your opponent after playing 20 spells and building up mana in one turn you shouldn't be playing magic.
If this is true, then it would have to be the engines that are banned. Banning every strong cantrip and ritual hurts many other decks that are safe (as we have seen in Modern).
I agree the engines should have been banned if they wanted to kill storm but they wanted it to still be playable. I'm just arguing against you advocating grapeshot/song, cantrips swap ban. It could theoretically power up storm even further. If song and cantrips come off, away goes PiF, PA, and EE
The Storm problem is solved by what I've been advocating in the Banned List discussion for some time. Ban Grapeshot (and for Overextended ban Tendrils of Agony, Mind's Desire, and Brain Freeze as well). Storm can still use the much worse Dragonstorm and the slower, creature-based Empty the Warrens. But without the possibility of an easy, cheap win condition, cards like Burning Wish, Cabal Ritual, Ponder, Preordain, and Seething Song would be safe.
The Dredge problem is simply solved by having Dread Return and Ichorid be banned. Dredge can't break the turn 4 rule with just Bridge from Below and Cabal Therapy, even if it has access to Breakthrough and Cephalid Colloseum. Dredgevinve doesn't seem like it would be too much of a problem either (though I admit that I could be wrong here).
Without Storm as a deck, the rituals aren't a problem. Seething Song didn't break anything other than Storm. Cabal Ritual doesn't have many worthwhile things to accelerate into.
So not only are you proposing "what if..." on the sets in the format, but also "what if..." on the philosophy that wizards uses to ban cards? Wizards bans enablers. Rituals and consistent cantrip spells enable broken interactions (from WotC perspective), and so they are the ban targets rather than the craziness that they allow for.
And Chrome Mox does not allow consistent turn 3 wins (and if it did, either Sword of the Meek or Dark Depths would be another fine unban choice).
It doesn't now either, and WotC has kept it banned so far.
I wanted a new format to play, not Extended 2: Electric Boogaloo (yea, I'm making that joke again too). People keep talking about all the decks that could be played in this super format, but they all seem like the same decks that were played in old Extended. I did not like Overextended, not due to some kind of balance issue (though looking at the potential cost bothered me at the time), but because it all felt like re-runs and it did not excite me.
I agree the engines should have been banned if they wanted to kill storm but they wanted it to still be playable. I'm just arguing against you advocating grapeshot/song, cantrips swap ban. It could theoretically power up storm even further. If song and cantrips come off, away goes PiF, PA, and EE
Fair enough (though I would hope that Goblin Electromancer could be banned instead of Past In Flames). If that's how it would have to be, then so be it and I think that the format would be better for it.
The Storm problem is solved by what I've been advocating in the Banned List discussion for some time. Ban Grapeshot (and for Overextended ban Tendrils of Agony, Mind's Desire, and Brain Freeze as well). Storm can still use the much worse Dragonstorm and the slower, creature-based Empty the Warrens. But without the possibility of an easy, cheap win condition, cards like Burning Wish, Cabal Ritual, Ponder, Preordain, and Seething Song would be safe.
The Dredge problem is simply solved by having Dread Return and Ichorid be banned. Dredge can't break the turn 4 rule with just Bridge from Below and Cabal Therapy, even if it has access to Breakthrough and Cephalid Colloseum. Dredgevinve doesn't seem like it would be too much of a problem either (though I admit that I could be wrong here).
Without Storm as a deck, the rituals aren't a problem. Seething Song didn't break anything other than Storm. Cabal Ritual doesn't have many worthwhile things to accelerate into.
So not only are you proposing "what if..." on the sets in the format, but also "what if..." on the philosophy that wizards uses to ban cards? Wizards bans enablers. Rituals and consistent cantrip spells enable broken interactions (from WotC perspective), and so they are the ban targets rather than the craziness that they allow for.
And Chrome Mox does not allow consistent turn 3 wins (and if it did, either Sword of the Meek or Dark Depths would be another fine unban choice).
It doesn't now either, and WotC has kept it banned so far.
I think that they need to unban it. The entire premise of it being banned was based on it allowing turn 3 wins. Yet it doesn't. So there is no need for it to be banned.
I wanted a new format to play, not Extended 2: Electric Boogaloo (yea, I'm making that joke again too). People keep talking about all the decks that could be played in this super format, but they all seem like the same decks that were played in old Extended. I did not like Overextended, not due to some kind of balance issue (though looking at the potential cost bothered me at the time), but because it all felt like re-runs and it did not excite me.
The vast majority of players did not play in Extended. I'd even say that the majority of competitive players didn't. It would not feel like reruns to them. Besides, it would be nonrotating and the power-level would be lower (no Hypergenesis in here).
I think that they need to unban it. The entire premise of it being banned was based on it allowing turn 3 wins. Yet it doesn't. So there is no need for it to be banned.
Regardless, it was banned and had Wizards started the format at Invasion is still would have been banned. Starting the format farther back does not change why they ban things.
I wanted a new format to play, not Extended 2: Electric Boogaloo (yea, I'm making that joke again too). People keep talking about all the decks that could be played in this super format, but they all seem like the same decks that were played in old Extended. I did not like Overextended, not due to some kind of balance issue (though looking at the potential cost bothered me at the time), but because it all felt like re-runs and it did not excite me.
The vast majority of players did not play in Extended. I'd even say that the majority of competitive players didn't. It would not feel like reruns to them. Besides, it would be nonrotating and the power-level would be lower (no Hypergenesis in here).
That may be true, though neither of us can say for sure, but this thread is asking for our opinions and mine is that I would have not enjoyed it for the reason I stated.
I sure loved Astral Slide, that card was just cool. I'd like to see Counterspell again and Fact or Fiction. Maybe if they did things correctly, Jace the Mind Sculptor could come off the banlist.
If they brought it to far back it would just be legacy without force of will, if I am correct you would even have sneak attack
That being said I do wish that onslaught block was modern legal. I love all the tribal stuff!
If they brought it to far back it would just be legacy without force of will, if I am correct you would even have sneak attack
That being said I do wish that onslaught block was modern legal. I love all the tribal stuff!
Sneak Attack was in Urza's so it wouldn't be legal.
If they started Modern with Invasion, I have 3 decks ready to go. UB Upheaval-Tog, UG Mongrel of Flight, and RG Madness Burn... all these decks were fun, and the only decks I still have together from before I took my hiatus from Scourge to Dark Ascension...
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Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming. Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Honest question because I don't play legacy and only have gut feelings: Isn't Modern significantly more reliant upon Fetchlands? In Legacy, you can play the original duals and can get by on 1-2 lands in many decks. In Modern, you don't have original duals, and the curve is fundamentally higher. Wouldn't this make Stifle potentially much *stronger* in Modern than Legacy? (This is of course assuming that the rest of the changes don't fundamentally change the mana curves or land makeup of Modern, of course)
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Honest question because I don't play legacy and only have gut feelings: Isn't Modern significantly more reliant upon Fetchlands? In Legacy, you can play the original duals and can get by on 1-2 lands in many decks. In Modern, you don't have original duals, and the curve is fundamentally higher. Wouldn't this make Stifle potentially much *stronger* in Modern than Legacy? (This is of course assuming that the rest of the changes don't fundamentally change the mana curves or land makeup of Modern, of course)
While this is true, you have to remember that Stifle has less targets in Modern (you can't use it on Counterbalance, Jace, Wasteland, SFM, and several other cards that don't exist in Modern).
Still too close to Legacy lite for my liking. Also you are hoping the other cards would balance things out. Free anything usually warps the format.
Everyone has their own preferences. Also, who is saying anything about free anything?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If this is true, then it would have to be the engines that are banned. Banning every strong cantrip and ritual hurts many other decks that are safe (as we have seen in Modern).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It doesn't now either, and WotC has kept it banned so far.
I wanted a new format to play, not Extended 2: Electric Boogaloo (yea, I'm making that joke again too). People keep talking about all the decks that could be played in this super format, but they all seem like the same decks that were played in old Extended. I did not like Overextended, not due to some kind of balance issue (though looking at the potential cost bothered me at the time), but because it all felt like re-runs and it did not excite me.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Fair enough (though I would hope that Goblin Electromancer could be banned instead of Past In Flames). If that's how it would have to be, then so be it and I think that the format would be better for it.
I think that they need to unban it. The entire premise of it being banned was based on it allowing turn 3 wins. Yet it doesn't. So there is no need for it to be banned.
The vast majority of players did not play in Extended. I'd even say that the majority of competitive players didn't. It would not feel like reruns to them. Besides, it would be nonrotating and the power-level would be lower (no Hypergenesis in here).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That may be true, though neither of us can say for sure, but this thread is asking for our opinions and mine is that I would have not enjoyed it for the reason I stated.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
This.
This is all I want to play in modern.
Aaaand madness. And BW Clerics. And Bidding...
WHY CAN'T THIS BE A THING
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
That being said I do wish that onslaught block was modern legal. I love all the tribal stuff!
Sneak Attack was in Urza's so it wouldn't be legal.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming.
Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Originally posted by MemoryLapse and DotMatrix
IT MUST HAPPEN
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Mirrodin was a bad starting point because of all the broken cards in that block
While this is true, you have to remember that Stifle has less targets in Modern (you can't use it on Counterbalance, Jace, Wasteland, SFM, and several other cards that don't exist in Modern).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.