I dabble in Vintage and have been getting into it more and more. A good friend plays Vintage Dredge. He's always happy to see GGT, so perhaps I'm biased due to my experiences watching him play and speaking with him.
I agree that Dread Return and Cabal Therapy are what really make the deck hum and give it its power. But GGT, in my opinion, gives it its consistency. Having 2 creatures that dredge for 5 and 6 (stinkimp and ggt) really help the engine of the deck. So I guess I would classify it as this:
D.Return, C. Therapy = power of deck
GGT, StinkImp (and Bazaar where it's legal) = engine of deck
Again, that's all just from observation and not playing it. I could very well be wrong, but it's my opinion at the moment.
You're very wrong. Too many key cards from Dredge are banned or aren't in the format at all for Golgari Grave-Troll to work. You claim it gives it its consistency... the problem is that it doesn't give consistency to anything! It sure helps you get those Ichorids in the... oh wait, Ichorid isn't around. Well, it gets Cabal Therapy into the... oh wait, that's not available either. Well, Golgari Grave-Troll is definitely great at getting those Narcomoebas so you can flashback Dread Return... oh wait, Dread Return is banned. All you've really got is Dread Return, which is pretty impotent without those other cards.
I mean, you might as well say that we'd better hurry up and ban Merchant Scroll in Modern because it's so astoundingly powerful in a High Tide deck, where it's practically a Demonic Tutor. It's banning a card because of synergies that don't exist in the format.
You tell me I'm "very wrong" then you argue a different point.
What I'm trying to say: If dumping your library into your GY is worth it, GGT provides a powerful level of redundancy and consistency.
What you seem to be saying: Dumping your library into your GY isn't worth it with the cards currently in the format.
That's fine, but that's not what I was talking about.
Right but what are you going to do with all the cards in your GY. You're right. GGT helps to dump all the cards in your library into your graveyard, but what do you do at that point?
I dabble in Vintage and have been getting into it more and more. A good friend plays Vintage Dredge. He's always happy to see GGT, so perhaps I'm biased due to my experiences watching him play and speaking with him.
I agree that Dread Return and Cabal Therapy are what really make the deck hum and give it its power. But GGT, in my opinion, gives it its consistency. Having 2 creatures that dredge for 5 and 6 (stinkimp and ggt) really help the engine of the deck. So I guess I would classify it as this:
D.Return, C. Therapy = power of deck
GGT, StinkImp (and Bazaar where it's legal) = engine of deck
Again, that's all just from observation and not playing it. I could very well be wrong, but it's my opinion at the moment.
You're very wrong. Too many key cards from Dredge are banned or aren't in the format at all for Golgari Grave-Troll to work. You claim it gives it its consistency... the problem is that it doesn't give consistency to anything! It sure helps you get those Ichorids in the... oh wait, Ichorid isn't around. Well, it gets Cabal Therapy into the... oh wait, that's not available either. Well, Golgari Grave-Troll is definitely great at getting those Narcomoebas so you can flashback Dread Return... oh wait, Dread Return is banned. All you've really got is Dread Return, which is pretty impotent without those other cards.
I mean, you might as well say that we'd better hurry up and ban Merchant Scroll in Modern because it's so astoundingly powerful in a High Tide deck, where it's practically a Demonic Tutor. It's banning a card because of synergies that don't exist in the format.
You tell me I'm "very wrong" then you argue a different point.
What I'm trying to say: If dumping your library into your GY is worth it, GGT provides a powerful level of redundancy and consistency.
What you seem to be saying: Dumping your library into your GY isn't worth it with the cards currently in the format.
That's fine, but that's not what I was talking about.
Right but what are you going to do with all the cards in your GY. You're right. GGT helps to dump all the cards in your library into your graveyard, but what do you do at that point?
I don't really care. I don't play dredge and the question is immaterial to my point.
You can not honestly say "Card x does this in VINTAGE therefore its too strong for Modern". That is, at its very core, the Apples to Oranges compassion of MTG. His effect on Vintage is secondary to the effect that the cards around him have. Troll without Powder or Bazaar would be worthless. In fact in Combo heavy meta's he is so worthless he is cut for black cards that can be used with Unmask. None of that matters though since Vintage is not Modern and Modern does not have the shell needed to push an over the top Dredge deck.
You can not honestly say "Card x does this in VINTAGE therefore its too strong for Modern". That is, at its very core, the Apples to Oranges compassion of MTG. His effect on Vintage is secondary to the effect that the cards around him have. Troll without Powder or Bazaar would be worthless. In fact in Combo heavy meta's he is so worthless he is cut for black cards that can be used with Unmask. None of that matters though since Vintage is not Modern and Modern does not have the shell needed to push an over the top Dredge deck.
Exactly.
Basically GGT is for Modern as Deathrite Shaman is for Standard: just fine, nothing broken.
Let's be honest here. Deathrite Shaman is outright garbage in Standard.
It's the clear example on how much of a difference the environment makes that the card is in.
You can not honestly say "Card x does this in VINTAGE therefore its too strong for Modern". That is, at its very core, the Apples to Oranges compassion of MTG. His effect on Vintage is secondary to the effect that the cards around him have. Troll without Powder or Bazaar would be worthless. In fact in Combo heavy meta's he is so worthless he is cut for black cards that can be used with Unmask. None of that matters though since Vintage is not Modern and Modern does not have the shell needed to push an over the top Dredge deck.
Exactly.
Basically GGT is for Modern as Deathrite Shaman is for Standard: just fine, nothing broken.
Let's be honest here. Deathrite Shaman is outright garbage in Standard.
It's the clear example on how much of a difference the environment makes that the card is in.
You can not honestly say "Card x does this in VINTAGE therefore its too strong for Modern". That is, at its very core, the Apples to Oranges compassion of MTG. His effect on Vintage is secondary to the effect that the cards around him have. Troll without Powder or Bazaar would be worthless. In fact in Combo heavy meta's he is so worthless he is cut for black cards that can be used with Unmask. None of that matters though since Vintage is not Modern and Modern does not have the shell needed to push an over the top Dredge deck.
Exactly.
Basically GGT is for Modern as Deathrite Shaman is for Standard: just fine, nothing broken.
Let's be honest here. Deathrite Shaman is outright garbage in Standard.
It's the clear example on how much of a difference the environment makes that the card is in.
Doesn't DRS see Standard play in Dredge?
Depends on their list. There are lists that did well that dont run any copies and the lists that do run him have 2 copies at most.
And Dredge is not a Tier 1 deck to begin with.
So I'm loathe to say this, but I think something about the Twin combo needs to be nerfed.
Or Sword of the Meek ought to come back.
It feels a bit double-standards, y'know? I really don't think Twin in its totality across its widespread axis of evil is that bad, but it's like... why bother banning Sword of the Meek and denying ThopterSword, yet let people win the game with Twin tricks?
Am I missing the big difference here? That the worst case scenario of Twin on Exarch is somehow still more appealing than getting finite bursts of Thopters and +1 life with ThopterSword?
Hate to say it, I really do, but I feel like something ought to be done. Either unban Sword, or ban one of the Red cloners. Am I being reasonable here?
So I'm loathe to say this, but I think something about the Twin combo needs to be nerfed.
Or Sword of the Meek ought to come back.
It feels a bit double-standards, y'know? I really don't think Twin in its totality across its widespread axis of evil is that bad, but it's like... why bother banning Sword of the Meek and denying ThopterSword, yet let people win the game with Twin tricks?
Am I missing the big difference here? That the worst case scenario of Twin on Exarch is somehow still more appealing than getting finite bursts of Thopters and +1 life with ThopterSword?
Hate to say it, I really do, but I feel like something ought to be done. Either unban Sword, or ban one of the Red cloners. Am I being reasonable here?
No, not in my opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with twin. I also don't think there's anything wrong with SotM, and I certainly think it can come off the list. I imagine they wanted to give it some time before they do any more unbannings....
Nothing is wrong with twin, there is so much in the format that interacts with it...
Saying that twin should have something banned because another card for a different potential deck is currently on the ban list is a step in the wrong direction.
The only difference I see is that twin is more easily disrupted/interacted with than thopter/sword for most decks, at least game 1 that is. But other than that, I don't think it's really fair to compare them as it's really apples to oranges. Note that I'm by no means saying sword should be banned. I haven't tested it, but I'm always welcoming of a new deck in the format, so long as it isn't completely broken.
So I'm loathe to say this, but I think something about the Twin combo needs to be nerfed.
Or Sword of the Meek ought to come back.
It feels a bit double-standards, y'know? I really don't think Twin in its totality across its widespread axis of evil is that bad, but it's like... why bother banning Sword of the Meek and denying ThopterSword, yet let people win the game with Twin tricks?
Am I missing the big difference here? That the worst case scenario of Twin on Exarch is somehow still more appealing than getting finite bursts of Thopters and +1 life with ThopterSword?
Hate to say it, I really do, but I feel like something ought to be done. Either unban Sword, or ban one of the Red cloners. Am I being reasonable here?
No, not in my opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with twin. I also don't think there's anything wrong with SotM, and I certainly think it can come off the list. I imagine they wanted to give it some time before they do any more unbannings....
The real question is how good is Sword of the Meek against aggro? Aggro really doesn't need to be hurt any more in Modern.
I would like to point out that after the Modern Thread re-shuffles based on performance, there are currently 11 "Proven" archetypes. Only one of those is a control deck: UWR Control, but even they are turning into some UWR Flash/midrange/Control. It's certainly not a true control deck anymore.
I think they need to un-ban a control card or 2. After looking at the ban list, there are actually only a few cards that qualify as true "Control" cards. I think Mental Misstep and even JtMS can be considered for coming off the list. There has been a lot of control hate printed since these cards' bannings. The RTR "uncountable" cycle alone is completely control-hate. Wizards has shown Control players no love since Sphinx's Revelation, but continued to print anti-control cards (Voice of resurgence, Reaper of the Wilds, Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, Master of Waves, Thassa, Advent of the Wurm, Fleecemane Lion) and un-ban anti-control cards (Bitterblossom).
Something needs to be done about the lack of control's presence. I agree with no bans this time around to see how the previous un/bans would play out, but change needs to occur.
Edit: I know Reaper of the Wilds, Advent of the wurm, Fleecemane Lion and Ajani haven't seen play in modern yet, but these are all clearly pushed cards that are incredibly powerful vs. control
I would like to point out that after the Modern Thread re-shuffles based on performance, there are currently 11 "Proven" archetypes. Only one of those is a control deck: UWR Control, but even they are turning into some UWR Flash/midrange/Control. It's certainly not a true control deck anymore.
I think they need to un-ban a control card or 2. After looking at the ban list, there are actually only a few cards that qualify as true "Control" cards. I think Mental Misstep and even JtMS can be considered for coming off the list. There has been a lot of control hate printed since these cards' bannings. The RTR "uncountable" cycle alone is completely control-hate. Wizards has shown Control players no love since Sphinx's Revelation, but continued to print anti-control cards (Voice of resurgence, Reaper of the Wilds, Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, Master of Waves, Thassa, Advent of the Wurm, Fleecemane Lion) and un-ban anti-control cards (Bitterblossom).
Something needs to be done about the lack of control's presence. I agree with no bans this time around to see how the previous un/bans would play out, but change needs to occur.
Edit: I know Reaper of the Wilds, Advent of the wurm, Fleecemane Lion and Ajani haven't seen play in modern yet, but these are all clearly pushed cards that are incredibly powerful vs. control
Misstep will never come off. It's too format warping. Also many see Bitterblossom as being an attempt to help control out in the format.
JTMS could probably exist in modern, but one of the best cards against him Bloodbraid Elfis also on the banlist. They might both be possible in modern, but it's probably a ways away from happening.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
I would like to point out that after the Modern Thread re-shuffles based on performance, there are currently 11 "Proven" archetypes. Only one of those is a control deck: UWR Control, but even they are turning into some UWR Flash/midrange/Control. It's certainly not a true control deck anymore.
I think they need to un-ban a control card or 2. After looking at the ban list, there are actually only a few cards that qualify as true "Control" cards. I think Mental Misstep and even JtMS can be considered for coming off the list. There has been a lot of control hate printed since these cards' bannings. The RTR "uncountable" cycle alone is completely control-hate. Wizards has shown Control players no love since Sphinx's Revelation, but continued to print anti-control cards (Voice of resurgence, Reaper of the Wilds, Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, Master of Waves, Thassa, Advent of the Wurm, Fleecemane Lion) and un-ban anti-control cards (Bitterblossom).
Something needs to be done about the lack of control's presence. I agree with no bans this time around to see how the previous un/bans would play out, but change needs to occur.
Edit: I know Reaper of the Wilds, Advent of the wurm, Fleecemane Lion and Ajani haven't seen play in modern yet, but these are all clearly pushed cards that are incredibly powerful vs. control
Fleecemane Lion is actually pretty weak against Control. Since WUR Control runs a ton of 3 damage removal and 4 Path to Exiles, there is no way that it is going to become Monstrous.
No, not in my opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with twin. I also don't think there's anything wrong with SotM, and I certainly think it can come off the list. I imagine they wanted to give it some time before they do any more unbannings....
The real question is how good is Sword of the Meek against aggro? Aggro really doesn't need to be hurt any more in Modern.[/quote]
This is exactly how I feel. I want Sword of the Meek to come off and I think it's fine in a format where other decks are doing much more than putting 3 1/1 fliers in play and 3 life on turn 4.
@Valanarch - I can understand concerns for Sword of the Meek against Aggro. Aggro is already weak and short of Aggro Control type decks, it is nearly dead in Modern. Maybe WoTC can do an experimental unban to see if it helps put the final nail in the coffin of Aggro?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
The real question is how good is Sword of the Meek against aggro? Aggro really doesn't need to be hurt any more in Modern.
I hope that Sword of the Meek is not the final nail in the coffin for Aggro in Modern. Short of Aggro Control type decks, Aggro is nearly non-existent. I see very little Zoo where I'm at. Maybe WoTC can do an experimental unban of Sword of the Meek?
[quote from="DotMatrix" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/543227-current-modern-banlist-discussion?comment=2598"]
No, not in my opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with twin. I also don't think there's anything wrong with SotM, and I certainly think it can come off the list. I imagine they wanted to give it some time before they do any more unbannings....
I agree completely. I want to see Sword of the Meek back and I don't think putting 3 1/1 fliers and 3 life on turn 4 is any stronger than what other decks in the format are doing. If this seems too strong, I want to play Modern where the person thinking this plays.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
No, not in my opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with twin. I also don't think there's anything wrong with SotM, and I certainly think it can come off the list. I imagine they wanted to give it some time before they do any more unbannings....
The real question is how good is Sword of the Meek against aggro? Aggro really doesn't need to be hurt any more in Modern.
This is exactly how I feel. I want Sword of the Meek to come off and I think it's fine in a format where other decks are doing much more than putting 3 1/1 fliers in play and 3 life on turn 4.
@Valanarch - I can understand concerns for Sword of the Meek against Aggro. Aggro is already weak and short of Aggro Control type decks, it is nearly dead in Modern. Maybe WoTC can do an experimental unban to see if it helps put the final nail in the coffin of Aggro?[/quote]
Affinity makes up between 11 to 15% of the meta by itself. Aggro is hardly dead, especially when you compare the amount of play aggro sees compared to Control.
Im not that experienced with eternal formats like many others but I have seen quite a few games in tournaments like the SCG Opens for example and read articles from pro-players.
Its well know that many of them hate aggro and not play it. Their mindset is that aggro/attacking is always bad until it is the right thing to do and then it becomes bad again.
And I find it not hard to see why they have that opinion. When you look at all the eternal formats where people can do powerful stuff so fast and consistent playing a bunch of one-drops and hoping to get there seems iffy.
When you look at all the truly successful decks that you could define as aggro in Legacy all of them have something broken combo-like thing going on themselves like Elves, Goblins and Affinity or can and will care about what the opponent is doing and stop it in the case of Merfolk and their counterspells.
I think "pure" aggro will never be a big thing in Modern either just based on past experience and how the game itself is structured. I mean they will probably never print more powerful creatures like Zoo has already access to for example but they will sure print cards that will help decks that are not focused on attacking. Be it combo-pieces or some new versatile removal spell etc.
Im not that experienced with eternal formats like many others but I have seen quite a few games in tournaments like the SCG Opens for example and read articles from pro-players.
Its well know that many of them hate aggro and not play it. Their mindset is that aggro/attacking is always bad until it is the right thing to do and then it becomes bad again.
And I find it not hard to see why they have that opinion. When you look at all the eternal formats where people can do powerful stuff so fast and consistent playing a bunch of one-drops and hoping to get there seems iffy.
When you look at all the truly successful decks that you could define as aggro in Legacy all of them have something broken combo-like thing going on themselves like Elves, Goblins and Affinity or can and will care about what the opponent is doing and stop it in the case of Merfolk and their counterspells.
I think "pure" aggro will never be a big thing in Modern either just based on past experience and how the game itself is structured. I mean they will probably never print more powerful creatures like Zoo has already access to for example but they will sure print cards that will help decks that are not focused on attacking. Be it combo-pieces or some new versatile removal spell etc.
At least for me, Aggro is boring and takes more combat math to know. The number one thing that scares me from playing Aggro is that I run out of gas and my opponent then has complete control of the game.
@Pizzap - I am a Blue player primarily and I would never think that in any shape or form, Mental Misstep is okay for Modern. Even in a way more powerful format like Legacy, Mental Misstep is too powerful. We don't want to see every deck devolve into a 56 card deck with 4 MM. Anyone who suggests that it should be unbanned should be ignored or is only saying it because they were able to procure many FOIL Mental Misstep for under $10 a piece and would love to see it get to $60 again.
(Admittedly, it's part of the reason why I want Sword of the Meek unbanned, but I actually think that the card would be fine.) In my meta, I couldn't see more than 2-3 people out of 36 playing it or it dominating over Pod, Twin, Affinity, etc.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
What I am wondering is if Mental Misstep would be fine if it only countered non-creature spells?
Regarding the Modern Banlist I believe that
1) Dread Return: should be unbanned. Dredge is a combo deck that actually has to play beatdown and is very vunerable to many forms of hate. I don't see Dread Return being too powerful for the format. As some have stated before me Dread Return and Bridge From Bellow is what makes the deck tick. Having one dredger or the other it doesn't really matter. Of course Grave Troll is a very strong creature but it alone will not make dredge viable while unbanning Dread Return would.
2) Bloodbraid Elf: could possibly be unbanned, it is an insanely strong card but it isn't either really broken (Mental Misstep) nor at the same power level as cards like Stoneforge nor it enables crazy combos such as Glimpse. It still is really edgy but I think it could be unbanned.
3) Sword of the Meek: should be unbanned. I don't get why the card is banned anyways. The Thopter combo is not really strong and kind of slow to get going so it still allows for aggro decks to get there before it comes online while the cards that make it up are really weak on their own.
4) Cloudpost: never really played with the card or saw what it can do so I am don't know. But it seems like another kind of Tron Deck except you want more of the same land instead of the three parts. Not sure if it's too strong or if it would be fine.
5) Jace the Mind Sculptor: there is a possibility that Jace could get in modern without breaking the format but I think it is way too risky. It's not as broken as say Stoneforge but still.
I think the rest of the cards are well into the banlist and not coming out. Some cards are banned due to tournament issues(Second Sunrise, Sensei's Divining Top) and would be fine to be unbanned if those issues ceased to exist but I don't see that happening. Other cards are totally broken (Skullclamp, Artifact Lands, Misstep) allow for too fast or too consistant combos(Hypergenesis, Seething Song, Blazing Shoal) or are just too strong (Jitte, Stoneforge).
Dread Return breaks the turn 4 rule and Cloudpost easily crushes fair decks. Also, why isn't Ancestral Vision on this list?
Dread Return does break the turn 4 rule but the deck itself is so fragile to hate that I think it would be fine to have it in the format. As I said I really don't know how cloudpost works so I asked and searched around a bit so it seems it's really far more broken than TronLands. Ancestral Vision is very cheap card advantage that is insanely strong both off suspend and off cascade. It breaks the balance of the game while still being cheap enough to cast without significant tempo loss.
Fragile, sure, but last word on the matter from the Wizards people was stuff about not liking having people play "the Dredge subgame."
Dread Return does break the turn 4 rule but the deck itself is so fragile to hate that I think it would be fine to have it in the format. As I said I really don't know how cloudpost works so I asked and searched around a bit so it seems it's really far more broken than TronLands. Ancestral Vision is very cheap card advantage that is insanely strong both off suspend and off cascade. It breaks the balance of the game while still being cheap enough to cast without significant tempo loss.
AV is weak off of cascade (it is completely unreliable, can only be run in decks without counterspells with cascade, and all of Modern's cascade cards are horrible). It isn't that strong off of suspend either because it takes 4 turns to do anything.
Dread Return does break the turn 4 rule but the deck itself is so fragile to hate that I think it would be fine to have it in the format. As I said I really don't know how cloudpost works so I asked and searched around a bit so it seems it's really far more broken than TronLands. Ancestral Vision is very cheap card advantage that is insanely strong both off suspend and off cascade. It breaks the balance of the game while still being cheap enough to cast without significant tempo loss.
AV is weak off of cascade (it is completely unreliable, can only be run in decks without counterspells with cascade, and all of Modern's cascade cards are horrible). It isn't that strong off of suspend either because it takes 4 turns to do anything.
Hardly weak off of cascade, considering Shardless BUG is a thing.
Rather it's that the quality of cascade cards legal in Modern is kinda trash for anything not a ReBal / LEnd deck.
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Doesn't seem broken in modern. That actually seems pretty slow and easy to deal with.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
I don't really care. I don't play dredge and the question is immaterial to my point.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
It's all fun and games until you go Lab Maniac + Azami.
You can not honestly say "Card x does this in VINTAGE therefore its too strong for Modern". That is, at its very core, the Apples to Oranges compassion of MTG. His effect on Vintage is secondary to the effect that the cards around him have. Troll without Powder or Bazaar would be worthless. In fact in Combo heavy meta's he is so worthless he is cut for black cards that can be used with Unmask. None of that matters though since Vintage is not Modern and Modern does not have the shell needed to push an over the top Dredge deck.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
It was just supposed to be a joke. I have no idea of how and if you could make that work.
Let's be honest here. Deathrite Shaman is outright garbage in Standard.
It's the clear example on how much of a difference the environment makes that the card is in.
Doesn't DRS see Standard play in Dredge?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Depends on their list. There are lists that did well that dont run any copies and the lists that do run him have 2 copies at most.
And Dredge is not a Tier 1 deck to begin with.
I want to play Seat of the Synod in mono blue tron
Couldn't we ban Ravager/Plating instead?
They can't come off without destroying affinity. Killing affinity to strengthen tron seems silly, but I'd love seat off the list for tezzorator :/
Or Sword of the Meek ought to come back.
It feels a bit double-standards, y'know? I really don't think Twin in its totality across its widespread axis of evil is that bad, but it's like... why bother banning Sword of the Meek and denying ThopterSword, yet let people win the game with Twin tricks?
Am I missing the big difference here? That the worst case scenario of Twin on Exarch is somehow still more appealing than getting finite bursts of Thopters and +1 life with ThopterSword?
Hate to say it, I really do, but I feel like something ought to be done. Either unban Sword, or ban one of the Red cloners. Am I being reasonable here?
No, not in my opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with twin. I also don't think there's anything wrong with SotM, and I certainly think it can come off the list. I imagine they wanted to give it some time before they do any more unbannings....
Saying that twin should have something banned because another card for a different potential deck is currently on the ban list is a step in the wrong direction.
The only difference I see is that twin is more easily disrupted/interacted with than thopter/sword for most decks, at least game 1 that is. But other than that, I don't think it's really fair to compare them as it's really apples to oranges. Note that I'm by no means saying sword should be banned. I haven't tested it, but I'm always welcoming of a new deck in the format, so long as it isn't completely broken.
The real question is how good is Sword of the Meek against aggro? Aggro really doesn't need to be hurt any more in Modern.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I think they need to un-ban a control card or 2. After looking at the ban list, there are actually only a few cards that qualify as true "Control" cards. I think Mental Misstep and even JtMS can be considered for coming off the list. There has been a lot of control hate printed since these cards' bannings. The RTR "uncountable" cycle alone is completely control-hate. Wizards has shown Control players no love since Sphinx's Revelation, but continued to print anti-control cards (Voice of resurgence, Reaper of the Wilds, Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, Master of Waves, Thassa, Advent of the Wurm, Fleecemane Lion) and un-ban anti-control cards (Bitterblossom).
Something needs to be done about the lack of control's presence. I agree with no bans this time around to see how the previous un/bans would play out, but change needs to occur.
Edit: I know Reaper of the Wilds, Advent of the wurm, Fleecemane Lion and Ajani haven't seen play in modern yet, but these are all clearly pushed cards that are incredibly powerful vs. control
UWRUWR MidrangeUWR
BUGSultai MidrangeBUG
BUGRTraverse MidrangeBUGR (currently brewing)
Misstep will never come off. It's too format warping. Also many see Bitterblossom as being an attempt to help control out in the format.
JTMS could probably exist in modern, but one of the best cards against him Bloodbraid Elfis also on the banlist. They might both be possible in modern, but it's probably a ways away from happening.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Fleecemane Lion is actually pretty weak against Control. Since WUR Control runs a ton of 3 damage removal and 4 Path to Exiles, there is no way that it is going to become Monstrous.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The real question is how good is Sword of the Meek against aggro? Aggro really doesn't need to be hurt any more in Modern.[/quote]
This is exactly how I feel. I want Sword of the Meek to come off and I think it's fine in a format where other decks are doing much more than putting 3 1/1 fliers in play and 3 life on turn 4.
@Valanarch - I can understand concerns for Sword of the Meek against Aggro. Aggro is already weak and short of Aggro Control type decks, it is nearly dead in Modern. Maybe WoTC can do an experimental unban to see if it helps put the final nail in the coffin of Aggro?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I hope that Sword of the Meek is not the final nail in the coffin for Aggro in Modern. Short of Aggro Control type decks, Aggro is nearly non-existent. I see very little Zoo where I'm at. Maybe WoTC can do an experimental unban of Sword of the Meek?
I agree completely. I want to see Sword of the Meek back and I don't think putting 3 1/1 fliers and 3 life on turn 4 is any stronger than what other decks in the format are doing. If this seems too strong, I want to play Modern where the person thinking this plays.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)This is exactly how I feel. I want Sword of the Meek to come off and I think it's fine in a format where other decks are doing much more than putting 3 1/1 fliers in play and 3 life on turn 4.
@Valanarch - I can understand concerns for Sword of the Meek against Aggro. Aggro is already weak and short of Aggro Control type decks, it is nearly dead in Modern. Maybe WoTC can do an experimental unban to see if it helps put the final nail in the coffin of Aggro?[/quote]
Affinity makes up between 11 to 15% of the meta by itself. Aggro is hardly dead, especially when you compare the amount of play aggro sees compared to Control.
Its well know that many of them hate aggro and not play it. Their mindset is that aggro/attacking is always bad until it is the right thing to do and then it becomes bad again.
And I find it not hard to see why they have that opinion. When you look at all the eternal formats where people can do powerful stuff so fast and consistent playing a bunch of one-drops and hoping to get there seems iffy.
When you look at all the truly successful decks that you could define as aggro in Legacy all of them have something broken combo-like thing going on themselves like Elves, Goblins and Affinity or can and will care about what the opponent is doing and stop it in the case of Merfolk and their counterspells.
I think "pure" aggro will never be a big thing in Modern either just based on past experience and how the game itself is structured. I mean they will probably never print more powerful creatures like Zoo has already access to for example but they will sure print cards that will help decks that are not focused on attacking. Be it combo-pieces or some new versatile removal spell etc.
At least for me, Aggro is boring and takes more combat math to know. The number one thing that scares me from playing Aggro is that I run out of gas and my opponent then has complete control of the game.
@Pizzap - I am a Blue player primarily and I would never think that in any shape or form, Mental Misstep is okay for Modern. Even in a way more powerful format like Legacy, Mental Misstep is too powerful. We don't want to see every deck devolve into a 56 card deck with 4 MM. Anyone who suggests that it should be unbanned should be ignored or is only saying it because they were able to procure many FOIL Mental Misstep for under $10 a piece and would love to see it get to $60 again.
(Admittedly, it's part of the reason why I want Sword of the Meek unbanned, but I actually think that the card would be fine.) In my meta, I couldn't see more than 2-3 people out of 36 playing it or it dominating over Pod, Twin, Affinity, etc.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Dread Return breaks the turn 4 rule and Cloudpost easily crushes fair decks. Also, why isn't Ancestral Vision on this list?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Fragile, sure, but last word on the matter from the Wizards people was stuff about not liking having people play "the Dredge subgame."
AV is weak off of cascade (it is completely unreliable, can only be run in decks without counterspells with cascade, and all of Modern's cascade cards are horrible). It isn't that strong off of suspend either because it takes 4 turns to do anything.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Hardly weak off of cascade, considering Shardless BUG is a thing.
Rather it's that the quality of cascade cards legal in Modern is kinda trash for anything not a ReBal / LEnd deck.