There are plenty of 2cmc counters in the format.Its just some players are spoiled and want a catch all. Counterspell is way too powerful for Standard. It would warp Standard in a way I doubt Wotc would want to see. It would also lean Modern towards blue. Being a format not leaning towards blue is a selling point for some for Modern.
There are plenty of 2cmc counters in the format.Its just some players are spoiled and want a catch all. Counterspell is way too powerful for Standard. It would warp Standard in a way I doubt Wotc would want to see. It would also lean Modern towards blue. Being a format not leaning towards blue is a selling point for some for Modern.
I agree that a format leaning towards blue would be a bad thing, however, I don't think Counterspell is that dangerous. That's just my view though, but I imagine WotC agrees with you given how many players hated Snapcaster Mage and Mana Leak together in Standard.
I think you underestimate the power of counterspell, and catch all counter spells with zero draw backs in general. Mana leak with Snapcaster is ammoying, Snapcaster with counterspell would be warping.
For anyone who's interested, there's a similar thing happening in legacy at the moment, thanks to TNN. TNN is a case study in what poor design can do, and in magic, it's particularly bad because the power of creatures tends to be subtle and overlooked (as opposed to non-creatures, which break the game outright when they get too strong). TNN is so good at connecting that he forces deck to either ignore him (combo), have a reliable way of dealing with him (GBx), or play him (U tempo). TNN makes blue tempo decks much better against the powerful midrange decks that traditionally beat the crap out of delver. At the same time, delver has a strong matchup against combo by virtue of all its disruption. Because of this, the format has veered hard into blue, and delver decks are taking a lot of top 8 slots. Sure, they're different flavours of delver, but let's be honest, the disruption and draw package is largely the same, making up almost 50% of the deck. From the outset, it doesn't really look like there's a problem, because TNN is "just a creature", when really he's such a good threat that his effect is being felt throughout the meta. Since he's entered the format, the diversity among the top decks has statistically declined, and will probably do so further from this point on, until he's either banned, or a better answer comes along.
I'm going pure conspiracy theorist, tinfoil hat here...
...what if True Name Nemesis was printed specially to ruin Legacy so that people would move onto Modern/Standard!!!
I don't honestly believe that, but man, I'd be lying to you I said the thought didn't enter my head.
Anyway; I don't have a problem with Counterspell, but I don't feel like it's necessary either. I don't think it would change the dynamic of the game that much, and would often be a harder to cast Mana Leak.
and having the clamp around makes it so even the jankiest of weird decks can steal games by just drawing a pile of cards, so basically every deck we've made is at least viable. If it were a tournament format, I would be playing way more magic.
And that is exactly the reason to ban Skullclamp: It makes essentially every deck better. I would really hate deckbuilding if there were a bunch of autoinclude cards. I have to have 4 clamps, I have to have 4 Mental Missteps...
The cards already in modern are bad enough (almost any red deck wants Lightning Bolt, almost any green deck wants Tarmogoyf)...
EDIT: Also about BBE: Not only it generates a lot of value, it is also very difficult for controlling strategies. You have to kill or counter two different things for price of one (and if the deck is well built, you don't want either of them to be on the table).
Most of this is true, but only Zoo, BGx, and RUG Delver play Goyf. Most green decks don't.
I think you underestimate the power of counterspell, and catch all counter spells with zero draw backs in general. Mana leak with Snapcaster is ammoying, Snapcaster with counterspell would be warping.
Standard survived and even thrived when Lightning Bolt was reprinted. I don't see why Counterspell would be any different. Also, it wouldn't be broken in Modern by any means.
Lightning Bolt is Red, and statistically the common red mage ( Rubra Stolidus ) in Standard is most likely to
foam at the mouth upon having their spell countered.
Edit: I actually prefer Mana Leak in many situations. Its good enough until I can set up enough U mana for Cryptic Command.
For anyone who's interested, there's a similar thing happening in legacy at the moment, thanks to TNN. TNN is a case study in what poor design can do, and in magic, it's particularly bad because the power of creatures tends to be subtle and overlooked (as opposed to non-creatures, which break the game outright when they get too strong). TNN is so good at connecting that he forces deck to either ignore him (combo), have a reliable way of dealing with him (GBx), or play him (U tempo). TNN makes blue tempo decks much better against the powerful midrange decks that traditionally beat the crap out of delver. At the same time, delver has a strong matchup against combo by virtue of all its disruption. Because of this, the format has veered hard into blue, and delver decks are taking a lot of top 8 slots. Sure, they're different flavours of delver, but let's be honest, the disruption and draw package is largely the same, making up almost 50% of the deck. From the outset, it doesn't really look like there's a problem, because TNN is "just a creature", when really he's such a good threat that his effect is being felt throughout the meta. Since he's entered the format, the diversity among the top decks has statistically declined, and will probably do so further from this point on, until he's either banned, or a better answer comes along.
The reason I brought this up is because many games with TNN actually feel like modern games in the way they play out. You can't quite answer what it is your opponent is doing, but it's not quite broken either, so people are kind of willing to accept it. You can't really articulate why that card should be banned, because at the end of the day, it's just a creature, right? I mean DRS died to a stiff breeze, and could only do one thing per turn, so he's fair, right? Well, he has the same effect on the format that any creature does when it's too strong, which is limit the variety of interactions, and hate out certain decks just by virtue of existing. I mean, just because TNN exists, death and taxes is now struggling, purely due to the increase in maindeck and sideboard hate. DRS had a similar effect in that his presence in the format hated out pretty much any dedicated graveyard strategy, just because he was legal.
Anyway, my rant is done.
This isn't really true, there are 11-12 different decks that are consistently top 8'ing at legacy tourneys worldwide in December and January, that's pretty diverse. I think DRS makes BGx too consistent, but it should definitely be considered for unbanning when the meta adjusts.
Is it because we have to look to the "Professional" players to understand a shifting meta? Is it laziness? Have we failed at supporting and showcasing a new format that could be both interesting and challenging?
Where is the line drawn?
Pretty much that's the answer. People don't want to solve things on their own and if pros got lazy and just want to play the best deck (Caw Blade, Affinity, Etc.) they will do just that and people will rant OMG that card is broken, ban it or I'll quit. Something like that.
Look no further than MTGSalvation Forums and you got the answer why wizards don't want things to evolve on their own and needed to step in to ban something from a dominating deck so that other decks can exist. There are more actions in the proven and established compared to deck creation section. Instead of supporting and helping others that are trying brew, some people just shot the idea instead of helping. We are currently being spoonfed by the internet.
Well WotC wanted blue to have the same power level in terms of answers to black. Thoughtseize is dead late game, so is mana leak. But for fighting combo decks, both mana leak and thoughtseize do pretty well at disrupting them. There is already Deprive and Unified Will, and this means that they don't want hard counters to be accessible in any deck. Merfolk can run Unified Will or Deprive, RUG Delver runs Deprive.
Standard survived and even thrived when Lightning Bolt was reprinted. I don't see why Counterspell would be any different. Also, it wouldn't be broken in Modern by any means.
I wouldnt say thrived. Bolt changed quite a bit in Standard, I would go as far to say as warped the game because anything with a butt smaller then 4 wasnt played unless it was an amazing drop. 2 drop 3/3's that were once very powerful, were being left out of decks because of bolt when it was reprinted. Also bolt can only hit creatures and players. It has no effect on instants, sorceries, or enchantments. Counterspell effects all aspects of the game. Counterspell in Standard would push control and blue decks and upset the recent balance in playable cards in all colors.
I will say, IF they reprint counterspell, expect to see more 'can not be countered spells'. Not sure how many would agree with that trade off.
Standard survived and even thrived when Lightning Bolt was reprinted. I don't see why Counterspell would be any different. Also, it wouldn't be broken in Modern by any means.
I wouldnt say thrived. Bolt changed quite a bit in Standard, I would go as far to say as warped the game because anything with a butt smaller then 4 wasnt played unless it was an amazing drop. 2 drop 3/3's that were once very powerful, were being left out of decks because of bolt when it was reprinted. Also bolt can only hit creatures and players. It has no effect on instants, sorceries, or enchantments. Counterspell effects all aspects of the game. Counterspell in Standard would push control and blue decks and upset the recent balance in playable cards in all colors.
I will say, IF they reprint counterspell, expect to see more 'can not be countered spells'. Not sure how many would agree with that trade off.
True. If it was brought into Standard, it would probably be only for a year and in a core set so it would see less Standard time. Maybe a UU Smother for spells would be fine? It misses out on many of the finishers and high-end creatures in an average Standard. Also, Counterspell has the disadvantage of the timing restriction. It isn't a guaranteed answer for anything played in the first 2 turns of the game.
There are plenty of 2cmc counters in the format.Its just some players are spoiled and want a catch all. Counterspell is way too powerful for Standard. It would warp Standard in a way I doubt Wotc would want to see. It would also lean Modern towards blue. Being a format not leaning towards blue is a selling point for some for Modern.
You don't seem to understand that increasing answer diversity will allow an increase in threat diversity.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
SFM was not broken without Batterskull. In Standard, I think that it could have survived without a ban if Batterskull had never been printed. In Modern, Jitte is banned. Assuming that Batterskull didn't exist, all that it would do in Modern is be a Sword tutor. I'd say that that is less broken than Snapcaster Mage. A 1/2 in white is 1 mana. Add on 1 more mana for the Steelshaper's Gift and add the other ability because it is Rare. It would be a 1/2 that tutors for swords once and can get them out at instant speed on the next turn for 1 less mana at the cost of tapping it. Compared to Snapcaster Mage, which is a 2/1 with flash in a color that usually doesn't get good creatures and recurs any spell that you have played over the whole game. Which seems more broken to you?
Bustedskull made the deck better, but it was already broke with SoFaF. The deck had a strangle hold on the format long before bustedskull was ever printed.
i was following standard that time. the deck with mystic passed from "deck to beat" ( 2-3 decks in top 8) before batterskull, to absolute dominance ( 6-8 decks in top8 ) post batterskull
I should clarify: I don't think wizards should unban every single card in Modern. I'm just pointing out that, as long as you balance unbans among the colors and strategies, you can unban as many cards as you want without hurting the overall balance of the game. You'd just make it more powerful.
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What people are failing to realize when comparing Modern to old Extended, Old Extended was considered a failure by Wotc. Why would Wotc create a format to follow a format where Wotc though was a failure? Just because a format exsisted with cards playing together, doesnt mean the format was a good format.
The lack of popularity and ultimately the death of Old Extended had nothing to do with power level or gameplay.
Players didn't like Old Extended because it combined the worst elements of Standard (your cards rotating) and Legacy (old cards can be expensive). Modern doesn't rotate, and WotC has committed to reprinting staples.
Modern gets compared to Old Extended and Legacy because of the size of its card pool. I hope that people see Modern as its own format and shouldn't be comparing it to other formats, but it happens, especially in the absence of data - and the banned list is a big part of the reason why. I hope WotC is slowly moving toward unbanning the cards that were banned under the guise of 'cross-format relevance' for that reason.
Aside - I'm pretty sure we'll eventually see the return of Extended, but not for 5 years or so to let the 5th Dynasty design approach go into full effect. Probably 6-or-7 blocks to match MaRo's long-term design cycle, rotating on the logical schedule that New Extended set into motion. As Modern continues to creep up in power due to new printings and unbannings, there will need to be a 'tweener format eventually to placate the wants for both the Legacy-lite and Super Standard crowds.
You don't seem to understand that increasing answer diversity will allow an increase in threat diversity.
I want to touch on this one more time, now that I've thought about it a bit. This isn't about any one card in particular, it's about design philosophy. Having good answers allows a variety of threats to be played. This is the sole reason why both Legacy and Standard work. Standard is designed in a way that answers itself. Wizards is careful about this. Legacy works because of things like Force and Daze. By allowing these answers to be present in the their respective formats, you are also allowing what strategies are able to exist within a format. I will use Legacy as an example only because I am unfamiliar with Standard currently.
Think of the decks that Force of Will and Daze stop. Reanimator, Show and Tell, Dredge, Storm (to an extent) Belcher, Elves, and so on. If Force of Will was banned, or just not in the format, All of these decks would be blatantly better than the others. However, because those two cards exist, these decks are allowed to see play. These strategies are allowed to see play.
What takes their place in Modern? Lightning Bolt. But because Lightning Bolt is Modern's catch all answer, it is limiting what decks and strategies are allowed in. However, Lightning Bolt is limited in it's scope, the decks that are allowed to see play must be answered by Lightning Bolt, or they are deemed too powerful. Take for example Modern's best control deck, American. The core of this deck is
Do you see how our best control deck is running the same things as the best Zoo decks? How American is actually just a burn deck in disguise?
Not having diversified answers means that the meta game and the best decks are also not diversified in a meaningful way.
So what is the point? I'm not saying Force of Will or Daze or things like that be put into Modern. But something that would play they same role as they do would be a huge boon to this format, allowing a wider diversity of decks and threats within those decks.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
You don't seem to understand that increasing answer diversity will allow an increase in threat diversity.
I want to touch on this one more time, now that I've thought about it a bit. This isn't about any one card in particular, it's about design philosophy. Having good answers allows a variety of threats to be played. This is the sole reason why both Legacy and Standard work. Standard is designed in a way that answers itself. Wizards is careful about this. Legacy works because of things like Force and Daze. By allowing these answers to be present in the their respective formats, you are also allowing what strategies are able to exist within a format. I will use Legacy as an example only because I am unfamiliar with Standard currently.
Think of the decks that Force of Will and Daze stop. Reanimator, Show and Tell, Dredge, Storm (to an extent) Belcher, Elves, and so on. If Force of Will was banned, or just not in the format, All of these decks would be blatantly better than the others. However, because those two cards exist, these decks are allowed to see play. These strategies are allowed to see play.
What takes their place in Modern? Lightning Bolt. But because Lightning Bolt is Modern's catch all answer, it is limiting what decks and strategies are allowed in. However, Lightning Bolt is limited in it's scope, the decks that are allowed to see play must be answered by Lightning Bolt, or they are deemed too powerful. Take for example Modern's best control deck, American. The core of this deck is
Do you see how our best control deck is running the same things as the best Zoo decks? How American is actually just a burn deck in disguise?
Not having diversified answers means that the meta game and the best decks are also not diversified in a meaningful way.
So what is the point? I'm not saying Force of Will or Daze or things like that be put into Modern. But something that would play they same role as they do would be a huge boon to this format, allowing a wider diversity of decks and threats within those decks.
There always is Mental Misstep. While I like Modern, I am curious what a Modern with Skullclamp as the only banned card would be like.
There are plenty of 2cmc counters in the format.Its just some players are spoiled and want a catch all. Counterspell is way too powerful for Standard. It would warp Standard in a way I doubt Wotc would want to see. It would also lean Modern towards blue. Being a format not leaning towards blue is a selling point for some for Modern.
You don't seem to understand that increasing answer diversity will allow an increase in threat diversity.
Not always. As I pointed out about bolt being reprinted, it invalidated cards that were once in top decks before the reprint.
I dont have a problem with strong answers for parts of the beast, its answers that can kill the beast that warp formats.
Quote from Valanarch »
There always is Mental Misstep. While I like Modern, I am curious what a Modern with Skullclamp as the only banned card would be like.
Combo fest. It would be a turn 2 format, faster then Legacy without the policing cards to slow it down. The top decks would be elfball, hypergenesis, dredge, and storm. All capable of going off turn 2, some going off turn 1 with special hands. MM wouldnt be more then a speed bump in that format.
Quote from CrazyMike366 »
The lack of popularity and ultimately the death of Old Extended had nothing to do with power level or gameplay.
Players didn't like Old Extended because it combined the worst elements of Standard (your cards rotating) and Legacy (old cards can be expensive). Modern doesn't rotate, and WotC has committed to reprinting staples.
WotC didn't like Old Extended for logistic reasons because its rotations made no sense. Modern doesn't rotate.
Modern gets compared to Old Extended and Legacy because of the size of its card pool. I hope that people see Modern as its own format and shouldn't be comparing it to other formats, but it happens, especially in the absence of data - and the banned list is a big part of the reason why. I hope WotC is slowly moving toward unbanning the cards that were banned under the guise of 'cross-format relevance' for that reason.
Aside - I'm pretty sure we'll eventually see the return of Extended, but not for 5 years or so to let the 5th Dynasty design approach go into full effect. Probably 6-or-7 blocks to match MaRo's long-term design cycle, rotating on the logical schedule that New Extended set into motion. As Modern continues to creep up in power due to new printings and unbannings, there will need to be a 'tweener format eventually to placate the wants for both the Legacy-lite and Super Standard crowds.
Well lack of popularity killed the format, hence wasnt a good format for the players or Wotc. Again, why would people want to compare Modern to a format that was seen as a failure? Just because some cards were played together at some time in the past, doesnt mean they should be today in Modern.
There is a lot of weight to this. It's strange to think that five years ago or so, (2008-10) All of the boogie man cards existed in one format that worked and worked fine together. (Until Elves was indisputably the best deck.) But Affinity w/lands, CounterTop, Dredge, Mind's Desire Storm, Faeries, RDW, Zoo, Tron/Post, Loam, Junk, (wasn't quite Jund yet) Blue Draw-Go, and plenty of other archetypes existed together and things were really quite good for all involved. The only card on the ban list that I remember was Disciple of the Vault. I'm sure there were more, but nothing as petty as what has ended up on the Modern ban list.
Somewhere in the creation of Modern, or in the design of new cards, something was lost. A system of checks and balances maybe? A loss of faith in the community to figure it out with the tools given?
Take Seething Song and Rite of Flame for example. Yes, we and Wizards knows fast mana can do silly things, but what exactly are those silly things in Modern? Grapeshot? Epic Experiment? Dragonstorm? There are plenty of answers to these cards. But instead of letting the scene and meta adapt, let the players push Storm back down with hate, they just outright kill it. Is it a political move on Wizards part? Does Storm not have viable answers in the format? Hasn't it been the way of formats forever to change to beat the current "best" deck? I'm not speaking strictly about combo decks either. The same tools that stop Storm also stop Cascade. But when these kinds of things were popular where was the Trickbind deck? The answers are here, but where is the innovation?
Is it because we have to look to the "Professional" players to understand a shifting meta? Is it laziness? Have we failed at supporting and showcasing a new format that could be both interesting and challenging?
Where is the line drawn?
Just look at this (and previous) bannedlist threads.
There you get all the answers.
Extendeds powerlevel was significantly higher, and it had the "problem" of getting blown out by different combodecks if you don't have the right hate cards (which is solved by metagaming IN MY OPINION thats why i put the quotation marks).
I think this line of reasoning is a fairly flawed one. You discuss power level when compared to extended, but that's not the issue. It would be easy for Wizards to simply have "more" bans of (overly) strong cards to lower the power level of the format. The more they ban, the lower the level of the format until they get it where they want it. But that's not what their doing. They aren't banning cards. They are waiting for decks to develop, and then periodically clipping the wings of whatever is on top to "force" changes in the meta. And because they do this, players inevitably grow lazy and jaded. They don't want to develop counter-strategies for whatever they lose to, knowing Wizards will fix the problem for them before too long.
The problem was, the answers were not (and still are not) universally there for all decks to combat the top deck. Forcing players to play a specific deck or color to combat a top deck is no way to grow a format.
Maro put forward a suggestion for the eventual tweener format. Choose Your Own Standard. It was the format of the last invitational. I think the idea will need some tweaking though, too difficult for known decks to evolve.
Bocephus: It's not a turn 2 combo kill format. Mental Misstep is an awfully good answer to the decks that can kill that fast, and Chalice of the Void is even better. For every U/R Storm deck, there's a deck packing Countertop and Thopter-Sword with some of the most efficient disruption in the world that rips it apart.
Stephen Menendian found the same thing when he tried vintage with no restricted list a few years back. Broken interactions, while broken, all have fundamentally similar strategies, in that they're highly modular. That modularity comes at the price of things like: low cmc band, heavy reliance on additional resources such as the graveyard, and big turns in which they spend a lot of mana and cards. To put that in simpler terms, as the format grows stronger, the hate cards and answers become more efficient. This effect is even amplified here by the presence of powerful answers that are even on the banned list: Mental Misstep, Sensei's Divining Top to enable Counterbalance, and so on. Is combo powerful in a format with everything but clamp unbanned? Sure. It's incredibly powerful. But so is everything else. If you'd like to see it for yourself, build an ascension list on cockatrice and see how you do against Countertop Miracles with Jace, Countertop itself, and 4 mental missteps.
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Bocephus: It's not a turn 2 combo kill format. Mental Misstep is an awfully good answer to the decks that can kill that fast, and Chalice of the Void is even better. For every U/R Storm deck, there's a deck packing Countertop and Thopter-Sword with some of the most efficient disruption in the world that rips it apart.
Stephen Menendian found the same thing when he tried vintage with no restricted list a few years back. Broken interactions, while broken, all have fundamentally similar strategies, in that they're highly modular. That modularity comes at the price of things like: low cmc band, heavy reliance on additional resources such as the graveyard, and big turns in which they spend a lot of mana and cards. To put that in simpler terms, as the format grows stronger, the hate cards and answers become more efficient. This effect is even amplified here by the presence of powerful answers that are even on the banned list: Mental Misstep, Sensei's Divining Top to enable Counterbalance, and so on. Is combo powerful in a format with everything but clamp unbanned? Sure. It's incredibly powerful. But so is everything else. If you'd like to see it for yourself, build an ascension list on cockatrice and see how you do against Countertop Miracles with Jace, Countertop itself, and 4 mental missteps.
He is talking with only skullclamp on the ban list, everything else unbanned. It is too a combo fest. Counter top doesnt have time to set up, those combo decks run MM so MM becomes a speed bump in play, not really a deterrent.
I have played the format with no bans. It is incredibly fast and zero policing cards to slow it down.
What? Wait, what? I don't...what? Ignoring the fact that the irony in this post is literally palpable, are you seriously, honestly, legitimately, trying to argue that RARITY impacts balance? The bias here is laughable. So, if Rite of Flame was released as a rare, it'd be perfectly fair and balanced? I don't even...
But as far as a 3/2 haste for 2. That's...barely playable. First strike and added effect is worth SIGNIFICANTLY more than the +1 power. Enough to the point where the slightly harder mana cost is still outdone. And with AZ being rated at only "okay" itself...
You lack of interpratation skill amuse me so much that i don't even know how to argue with you, since you will not only won't understand it, but also twist anything i say in you favor
3/2 haste for 2 is barely playable? Maybe wizards should do a 4/4 haste first strike for 1 and people like you will be happy... oh wait, they will complain anyway... how can i keep a logical discussion with someone that thinks that... and complain about DRS... Nah i won't lose my time...
Luckly what people say here is irrelevant, BBE will stay banned at last until huey unless GBx totally dies in the next months, wich is very unlikely.
I agree that a format leaning towards blue would be a bad thing, however, I don't think Counterspell is that dangerous. That's just my view though, but I imagine WotC agrees with you given how many players hated Snapcaster Mage and Mana Leak together in Standard.
I'm going pure conspiracy theorist, tinfoil hat here...
...what if True Name Nemesis was printed specially to ruin Legacy so that people would move onto Modern/Standard!!!
I don't honestly believe that, but man, I'd be lying to you I said the thought didn't enter my head.
Anyway; I don't have a problem with Counterspell, but I don't feel like it's necessary either. I don't think it would change the dynamic of the game that much, and would often be a harder to cast Mana Leak.
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Most of this is true, but only Zoo, BGx, and RUG Delver play Goyf. Most green decks don't.
Standard survived and even thrived when Lightning Bolt was reprinted. I don't see why Counterspell would be any different. Also, it wouldn't be broken in Modern by any means.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Lightning Bolt is Red, and statistically the common red mage ( Rubra Stolidus ) in Standard is most likely to
foam at the mouth upon having their spell countered.
Edit: I actually prefer Mana Leak in many situations. Its good enough until I can set up enough U mana for Cryptic Command.
This isn't really true, there are 11-12 different decks that are consistently top 8'ing at legacy tourneys worldwide in December and January, that's pretty diverse. I think DRS makes BGx too consistent, but it should definitely be considered for unbanning when the meta adjusts.
Pretty much that's the answer. People don't want to solve things on their own and if pros got lazy and just want to play the best deck (Caw Blade, Affinity, Etc.) they will do just that and people will rant OMG that card is broken, ban it or I'll quit. Something like that.
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I wouldnt say thrived. Bolt changed quite a bit in Standard, I would go as far to say as warped the game because anything with a butt smaller then 4 wasnt played unless it was an amazing drop. 2 drop 3/3's that were once very powerful, were being left out of decks because of bolt when it was reprinted. Also bolt can only hit creatures and players. It has no effect on instants, sorceries, or enchantments. Counterspell effects all aspects of the game. Counterspell in Standard would push control and blue decks and upset the recent balance in playable cards in all colors.
I will say, IF they reprint counterspell, expect to see more 'can not be countered spells'. Not sure how many would agree with that trade off.
True. If it was brought into Standard, it would probably be only for a year and in a core set so it would see less Standard time. Maybe a UU Smother for spells would be fine? It misses out on many of the finishers and high-end creatures in an average Standard. Also, Counterspell has the disadvantage of the timing restriction. It isn't a guaranteed answer for anything played in the first 2 turns of the game.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You don't seem to understand that increasing answer diversity will allow an increase in threat diversity.
That's my point.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
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The lack of popularity and ultimately the death of Old Extended had nothing to do with power level or gameplay.
Players didn't like Old Extended because it combined the worst elements of Standard (your cards rotating) and Legacy (old cards can be expensive). Modern doesn't rotate, and WotC has committed to reprinting staples.
WotC didn't like Old Extended for logistic reasons because its rotations made no sense. Modern doesn't rotate.
Modern gets compared to Old Extended and Legacy because of the size of its card pool. I hope that people see Modern as its own format and shouldn't be comparing it to other formats, but it happens, especially in the absence of data - and the banned list is a big part of the reason why. I hope WotC is slowly moving toward unbanning the cards that were banned under the guise of 'cross-format relevance' for that reason.
Aside - I'm pretty sure we'll eventually see the return of Extended, but not for 5 years or so to let the 5th Dynasty design approach go into full effect. Probably 6-or-7 blocks to match MaRo's long-term design cycle, rotating on the logical schedule that New Extended set into motion. As Modern continues to creep up in power due to new printings and unbannings, there will need to be a 'tweener format eventually to placate the wants for both the Legacy-lite and Super Standard crowds.
Speculate less. Test more.
I want to touch on this one more time, now that I've thought about it a bit. This isn't about any one card in particular, it's about design philosophy. Having good answers allows a variety of threats to be played. This is the sole reason why both Legacy and Standard work. Standard is designed in a way that answers itself. Wizards is careful about this. Legacy works because of things like Force and Daze. By allowing these answers to be present in the their respective formats, you are also allowing what strategies are able to exist within a format. I will use Legacy as an example only because I am unfamiliar with Standard currently.
Think of the decks that Force of Will and Daze stop. Reanimator, Show and Tell, Dredge, Storm (to an extent) Belcher, Elves, and so on. If Force of Will was banned, or just not in the format, All of these decks would be blatantly better than the others. However, because those two cards exist, these decks are allowed to see play. These strategies are allowed to see play.
What takes their place in Modern? Lightning Bolt. But because Lightning Bolt is Modern's catch all answer, it is limiting what decks and strategies are allowed in. However, Lightning Bolt is limited in it's scope, the decks that are allowed to see play must be answered by Lightning Bolt, or they are deemed too powerful. Take for example Modern's best control deck, American. The core of this deck is
4x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
4x Snapcaster Mage
Do you see how our best control deck is running the same things as the best Zoo decks? How American is actually just a burn deck in disguise?
Not having diversified answers means that the meta game and the best decks are also not diversified in a meaningful way.
So what is the point? I'm not saying Force of Will or Daze or things like that be put into Modern. But something that would play they same role as they do would be a huge boon to this format, allowing a wider diversity of decks and threats within those decks.
There always is Mental Misstep. While I like Modern, I am curious what a Modern with Skullclamp as the only banned card would be like.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Not always. As I pointed out about bolt being reprinted, it invalidated cards that were once in top decks before the reprint.
I dont have a problem with strong answers for parts of the beast, its answers that can kill the beast that warp formats.
Combo fest. It would be a turn 2 format, faster then Legacy without the policing cards to slow it down. The top decks would be elfball, hypergenesis, dredge, and storm. All capable of going off turn 2, some going off turn 1 with special hands. MM wouldnt be more then a speed bump in that format.
Well lack of popularity killed the format, hence wasnt a good format for the players or Wotc. Again, why would people want to compare Modern to a format that was seen as a failure? Just because some cards were played together at some time in the past, doesnt mean they should be today in Modern.
I think this line of reasoning is a fairly flawed one. You discuss power level when compared to extended, but that's not the issue. It would be easy for Wizards to simply have "more" bans of (overly) strong cards to lower the power level of the format. The more they ban, the lower the level of the format until they get it where they want it. But that's not what their doing. They aren't banning cards. They are waiting for decks to develop, and then periodically clipping the wings of whatever is on top to "force" changes in the meta. And because they do this, players inevitably grow lazy and jaded. They don't want to develop counter-strategies for whatever they lose to, knowing Wizards will fix the problem for them before too long.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Stephen Menendian found the same thing when he tried vintage with no restricted list a few years back. Broken interactions, while broken, all have fundamentally similar strategies, in that they're highly modular. That modularity comes at the price of things like: low cmc band, heavy reliance on additional resources such as the graveyard, and big turns in which they spend a lot of mana and cards. To put that in simpler terms, as the format grows stronger, the hate cards and answers become more efficient. This effect is even amplified here by the presence of powerful answers that are even on the banned list: Mental Misstep, Sensei's Divining Top to enable Counterbalance, and so on. Is combo powerful in a format with everything but clamp unbanned? Sure. It's incredibly powerful. But so is everything else. If you'd like to see it for yourself, build an ascension list on cockatrice and see how you do against Countertop Miracles with Jace, Countertop itself, and 4 mental missteps.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
He is talking with only skullclamp on the ban list, everything else unbanned. It is too a combo fest. Counter top doesnt have time to set up, those combo decks run MM so MM becomes a speed bump in play, not really a deterrent.
I have played the format with no bans. It is incredibly fast and zero policing cards to slow it down.
3/2 haste for 2 is barely playable? Maybe wizards should do a 4/4 haste first strike for 1 and people like you will be happy... oh wait, they will complain anyway... how can i keep a logical discussion with someone that thinks that... and complain about DRS... Nah i won't lose my time...
Luckly what people say here is irrelevant, BBE will stay banned at last until huey unless GBx totally dies in the next months, wich is very unlikely.