Certain cards are on the banlist because are inherently super-duper-powerful cards. That is NOT the same thing as saying they are on the banlist BECAUSE they are inherently powerful cards. That list would include:
That list of cards is on the list of the most powerful cards in the existence of the game no matter the deck. You don't need to run some combo or gimmicky deck to make the card powerful, it just flat out destroys things.
Outside of those 5 cards, EVERY SINGLE CARD on the modern banlist is banned either because of slow play, breaking the turn 4 rule, or TO WEAKEN A DECK TYPE.
Don't believe me? Let's take an example that has been discussed in this thread most recently, Bloodbraid Elf...
If Bloodbraid Elf was simply banned because of its power level and had NOTHING to do with JUND needing a nerf, then it should be on a short list of the most powerful cards in the format, otherwise it couldn't be banned for power level alone. Problem with that is...
These are creatures that are, with any semblance of reason, SUBSTANTIALLY more powerful than BBE. If you would like to argue that BBE is better in some specific scenario, good for you. Any sane person would not argue that BBE is more powerful than any of the above creatures 90% of the time. If you are going to ban a card because of power level alone, there is no reason, and I mean NO reason to ban BBE over any of the above three creatures. That must mean that the banning of BBE was intended for some other purpose as well, and since it clearly doesn't break the turn 4 rule or time constraint, it must have been to weaken JUND since it had completely taken over the metagame.
I think to any person being fair and rational, it is quite clear that BBE got banned because Wizards wanted to nerf Jund while not destroying the deck, and didn't want to punish any other deck archetypes at the same time. Now, if you look at my post above, I have a theory for why that was, but there is no rational denying that Wizards finds it perfectly acceptable to ban a card to nerf a deck.
Also, a card being "too powerful" only matters if there are not other powerful cards and decks to balance out that card. Here is a list of decks that have cards on the banlist to nerf a deck type, not because of a time constraint or the turn 4 rule:
BTW, if you are still arguing about the reason for BBE ban, here is the quote from Wizards: "While the rest of the format is quite diverse, the dominance of Jund is making it less so overall. The DCI looked to ban a card. We wanted a card that top players consistently played four copies of in Jund, but ideally was less played in other top Modern decks. That would give the best chance of creating a more balanced metagame. The card that best fits our criteria is Bloodbraid Elf."
First Dread Return and GGT were turn 4 rule bans (even though GGT doesn't break anything). Second BGx is almost gone from the meta as we can see from MTGO. DRS is a more powerful card than BBE. BGx with DRS was only a little too strong. So that would mean that BBE Jund would not be broken and that BBE shouldn't be banned.
I'm totally agreeing...my whole post was to point out that BBE isn't "too powerful" and was just banned to hate a deck that just got BLASTED by the DRS ban. I personally think the only cards that should be on the modern banlist are:
Before you say, "OMG such-and-such deck would dominate" this is just my opinion of the banlist I would like to play with...the powerful decks would police themselves...
And you don't see a problem with this? Banning and unbanning cards that are nowhere near banworthy in their own right, and taking direction based on what decks they end up going into? You'd never see this type of treatment of cards that are ACTUALLY banworthy like Channel, Shaharazad, Flash, etc. Cards. Cards, not decks. Just cards.
No I dont. Wotc is trying to shape a new format. It should not be treated like Legacy or Vintage or Old Extended, or small Extended, or Overextended. It is a new format with new guidelines with new ideas. I dont want Modern to be like other formats. There is a reason I dont play Legacy and Vintage and it isnt lack of cards, I have the cards, I dont like the formats.
As for banning a card in a vacuum like you seem to be saying isnt why any card is banned. Almost every card on any ban list is banned because of the interaction with other cards in the format (excluding ante cards).
Rite of Flame OBJECTIVELY broke the turn 4 rule.
Artifact lands OBJECTIVELY broke the turn 4 rules.
Second Sunrise OBJECTIVELY broke time constraints.
GGT...is a card that was once in dredge. And some people dislike playing against dredge(even though it's weak without DR).
You see the difference here?
Wotc sided on the side of caution. They have had upstart formats die with in the first few months of being announced because of broken card interactions. They decided with Modern to remove what they felt were dangerous cards. Some have a different opinion of that, its expected. If they started the format with no bans there would be just as many, but different, people complaining about the format. Wotc can not make everyone happy. They understand this and did what they feel was right at the time. Over time things will change.
Yes, Wizards want a format with powerful decks. If you look at Modern, it's actually all of the previous standard decks upgraded with more powerful cards. There are a lot format for broken stategies right now, Legacy, Vintage and Commander. Wizards did not make Modern a format that competes with those. It's a format for rotating standard decks. You now have the option to not sell your standard deck and just buy Modern upgrade cards. It's also for deck brewers because anytime you see a combo interaction you can go ahead and build it if it can win in 4 turns. You can't do that in Legacy or Vintage because combo needs to be winning by turn 2 or 3 in that format.
Bloodbraid Elf did not need a ban. Wizards did not want to ban Deathrite Shaman at the time because it was a new card, simply put. Now we see what happened to Deathrite Shaman. Oh well; at least we had our fun for months with the card. By the way, I played vs. Bloodbraid Elf in Standard and Extended extensively and I never felt like it needed banning. Did it do powerful plays quite often? Yes, but that is what Magic is about, overcoming such plays and it was a "challenge," not impossible to overcome.
I also agree that Golgari Grave-Troll doesn't need a ban, but I don't think too many will argue here.
I don't understand the turn 4 rule in Modern. Are these Combos consistently winning on or before turn 4? I've won numerous times by turn 4 with Griselbrand Reanimator. I've even turn 1, put an Emrakul in play during testing. I've played a match in sanctioned play where I turn 2 won with Griselbrand and Fury of the Horde in both games 1 and 3. This is what I like about the format. Some powerful plays are allowed. Not everyone wants to slog though a match the way BG Midrange does. However you want to explain the "turn 4 Modern rule," it is just stupid to me. Some cards DO need to remain banned and I agree with that. I personally feel that if Bloodbraid Elf is back, then Jace, the Mind Sculptor would be okay. However, I do understand the need to keep Jace + Stoneforge Mystic banned because of how many people were traumatized by them. I would love to see them in the format.
Now with Bitterblossom in the format, we're going to see some cool things. Don't kid yourselves. Bitterblossom is a very powerful card and more powerful than at least 5 cards on the banned list currently. A simple hand of Thoughtseize, Bitterblossom, Scion of Oona, is enough to make any "fair" Modern deck concede and counterspells and hand disruption will destroy Combo decks. Only extreme Aggro decks will hang with Fae and those will mostly be hated out by other decks.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
The rule, at least when it was last "codified," was that top tier decks that win consistently before turn 4 are not allowed. Of course, exactly what qualifies as "top tier" and "consistently" are kind of vague.
The rule, at least when it was last "codified," was that top tier decks that win consistently before turn 4 are not allowed. Of course, exactly what qualifies as "top tier" and "consistently" are kind of vague.
That's not entirely true. "Top tier" is never a consideration for the turn4 rule. Since by definition, if it can win "consistently" before turn 4(through average levels of disruption), it WILL become a top tier deck. So the only real subjectivity here is the term "consistently." But it's fairly obvious what they mean by that. Storm was winning on turn 3 over 50% of the time in tournament settings. This is clearly a violation of "consistently." Which is why it got hit. Griselbrand can have great draws, but not enough redundancy like storm did to allow it to combo as "consistently," and therefore is not nearly as much an issue.
The reason they have the "turn 4" rule in modern is modern lacks sufficient counter methods (be they blue spells or otherwise) or fast enough decks to work against a 3 turn clock. If deceiver exarch and pestermite cost 2 mana and splinter twin cost 3 mana, the only way that any deck could ever win against splinter twin is to have enough counter magic to consistently counter 2/3 spells in turns 2-5 while still having enough spells to lay your own beatdown. If you are on the draw and they lay one of the two creatures on turn 2, you either have to have a 2 mana counterspell to deal with splinter twin turn 3, or a removal spell for a 4 toughness creature potentially for when they cast splinter twin.
Now if you look at storm, the ONLY way to interact with storm is counter magic. You can't remove a creature in storm to save you from death. A turn 3 storm death can ONLY be prevented by counter magic, which means if you aren't running blue, you lose.
Now, if a deck can combo out on turn 3, then something like a thoughtseize will obviously slow the deck down to turn 4, but that is still too quick. A turn 4 combo deck getting slowed down to turn 5, however, gives plenty of time for aggro to kill and midrange enough time to find enough answers potentially. If you get pushed back to turn 6 as a pure combo deck, good luck dealing with 4/5 goyf's and hordes of artifacts/beasts...
I'm totally agreeing...my whole post was to point out that BBE isn't "too powerful" and was just banned to hate a deck that just got BLASTED by the DRS ban. I personally think the only cards that should be on the modern banlist are:
Before you say, "OMG such-and-such deck would dominate" this is just my opinion of the banlist I would like to play with...the powerful decks would police themselves...
You do realize that Storm has EVERYTHING from the banned list unbanned in this? How is Storm with Ponder, Preordain, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, and Chrome Mox combined with Past in Flames, Epic Experiment, and Pyromancer's Swath less broken than Cloudpost or Elves?
The rule, at least when it was last "codified," was that top tier decks that win consistently before turn 4 are not allowed. Of course, exactly what qualifies as "top tier" and "consistently" are kind of vague.
That's not entirely true. "Top tier" is never a consideration for the turn4 rule.
"Before Pro Tour Philadelphia, the DCI's stated guideline for the Modern format was to avoid having decks that consistently win the game on turn three. With the results of the Pro Tour in, we are tweaking that goal to not having top-tier decks that consistently win on turn three (or earlier). We also have the goal of maintaining a diverse format."
Ok, I guess we can take away Rite of Flame, Seething Song, and if that isn't enough, Past in Flames...
Yeah, storm would definitely be quite overpowered. I think I just forgot about those cards mainly.
Ok, I thought that you thought that Storm would be fair with everything. I think that with the additions of Seething Song and Rite of Flame, your banned list would be fine.
That's why I wouldn't mind seeing Grapeshot swap with some combination of cantrips and rituals on the banned list. Using Empty the Warrens' goblin tokens for the storm kill is (1) a turn slower due to summoning sickness and/or requires an extra card in Goblin Bushwacker, and (2) is interaction on the battlefield, not just the stack. Storm gets both more explosive and more fragile, and non-blue decks can hope to interact and still win instead of dying on the spot. Also add on benefits to Delver, blue control, and All-in strategies.
That's why I wouldn't mind seeing Grapeshot swap with some combination of cantrips and rituals on the banned list. Using goblin tokens for the storm kill is (1) a turn slower due to summoning sickness, and (2) is interaction on the battlefield, not just the stack. Storm gets both more explosive and more fragile, and non-blue decks can hope to interact and still win instead of dying on the spot. Also add on benefits to Delver, blue control, and All-in strategies.
I have supported this idea for a long time. It would allow All-In Red to be Tier 3 again, allow Ritual Gifts to actually be a good deck, bring Dragonstorm back, make Hive Mind a powerful deck again, and help out many decks that just need a little more consistency as well as Delver decks.
I think the main unfair thing that storm does is mana spells + past in flames. If you take away their access to infinite mana, you make none of the storm cards broken, but merely fair. Empty the Warrens is hardly allowing interaction. It requires you to have a sweeper the next turn or you lose the game.
That's why I wouldn't mind seeing Grapeshot swap with some combination of cantrips and rituals on the banned list. Using Empty the Warrens' goblin tokens for the storm kill is (1) a turn slower due to summoning sickness and/or requires an extra card in Goblin Bushwacker, and (2) is interaction on the battlefield, not just the stack. Storm gets both more explosive and more fragile, and non-blue decks can hope to interact and still win instead of dying on the spot. Also add on benefits to Delver, blue control, and All-in strategies.
Doubtful? I'd just play Dragonstorm or Hive Mind then. Winning through the stack is superior to combat in every way. If you ban Grapeshot, there are other ways to kill without using haste goblins. Storm is convenient. Banefire also works. It's the engine that makes the decks powerful, not the kill spell. That's why Song was banned in the first place.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I think the main unfair thing that storm does is mana spells + past in flames. If you take away their access to infinite mana, you make none of the storm cards broken, but merely fair. Empty the Warrens is hardly allowing interaction. It requires you to have a sweeper the next turn or you lose the game.
It allows more interaction than Grapeshot. It also allows you to win next turn if possible (Splinter Twin for example).
I'm totally agreeing...my whole post was to point out that BBE isn't "too powerful" and was just banned to hate a deck that just got BLASTED by the DRS ban. I personally think the only cards that should be on the modern banlist are:
Before you say, "OMG such-and-such deck would dominate" this is just my opinion of the banlist I would like to play with...the powerful decks would police themselves...
You do realize that Storm has EVERYTHING from the banned list unbanned in this? How is Storm with Ponder, Preordain, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, and Chrome Mox combined with Past in Flames, Epic Experiment, and Pyromancer's Swath less broken than Cloudpost or Elves?
I'd want GSZ and DRS(best creature ever printed) on there as well, but that is basically the list that a great number of people want(including RoF and SS). The very utilitarian list banning things that are broken, and letting back in things that were taken out for political reasons("Jund is too popular", "Dredge dominated Extended", "Control is no fun").
And it would work. And it would be great. And literally everyone who I've heard from who has played in "house rules Modern" with said list have had nothing but glowing results from it. But Wizards...seemed to gunshy at the format's onset, and too scared to admit their mistakes. I have faith though that this will be the list in the long run. Whether it be in 2 years or 10 years.
Undeniably that is true, but if you ban grapeshot you ban the purpose of playing the deck using actual storm. People would go back to straight pyromancer's ascension, which is a far less fun version of the deck to play.
Undeniably that is true, but if you ban grapeshot you ban the purpose of playing the deck using actual storm. People would go back to straight pyromancer's ascension, which is a far less fun version of the deck to play.
How would it kill without Grapeshot? Milling out with Thought Scour or searching for a singleton Banefire? That just seems bad. The Ascension version is even weaker to graveyard hate than the ritual storm decks. At least it has the advantage of enough free slots that it can play a few Mana Leaks, Spell Snares, Remands, and/or Echoing Truth. Not sure if that's a good trade off in the current metagame.
Undeniably that is true, but if you ban grapeshot you ban the purpose of playing the deck using actual storm. People would go back to straight pyromancer's ascension, which is a far less fun version of the deck to play.
How would it kill without Grapeshot? Milling out with Thought Scour or searching for a singleton Banefire? That just seems bad. The Ascension version is even weaker to graveyard hate than the ritual storm decks. At least it has the advantage of enough free slots that it can play a few Mana Leaks, Spell Snares, Remands, and/or Echoing Truth. Not sure if that's a good trade off in the current metagame.
You don't get it. Grapeshot isn't what wins. It's what kills you. The Past in Flames + Ritual (Either Seething Song or Goblin) is what wins.
Personally, I'd like Song back, just to Dragonstorm again.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Wizards will never ban Grapeshot to allow Seething Song back.
I never really understood the hatred for Storm, or is it just WoTC catering to bad players
who had a bad experience.
Heck, I used to love losing to my one friend's Storm deck back when it had Song, and for the times he won there were plenty more where
he was hated out.
I'm still adamant that either Jace or Stoneforge will be unbanned in 2015 to help sell ( more ) MM2 packs. Also, since WotC takes into consideration a lot what the pros think and most agree that Bloodbraid Elf is a good Jace counter, I bet she'll be unbanned next year as well. However, I don't see Modern being a format with both Jace and Misty in it, though.
First Dread Return and GGT were turn 4 rule bans (even though GGT doesn't break anything). Second BGx is almost gone from the meta as we can see from MTGO. DRS is a more powerful card than BBE. BGx with DRS was only a little too strong. So that would mean that BBE Jund would not be broken and that BBE shouldn't be banned.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Ancient Den
Batterskull (instead of mystic)
Blazing Shoal
Dark Depths
Cloudpost
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Great Furnace
Hypergenesis
Mental Misstep
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Skullclamp
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers
Before you say, "OMG such-and-such deck would dominate" this is just my opinion of the banlist I would like to play with...the powerful decks would police themselves...
Well Vintage is not a format they declared on supporting right? They plan on supporting Standard, Modern and a little Legacy here and there.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
Yes, Wizards want a format with powerful decks. If you look at Modern, it's actually all of the previous standard decks upgraded with more powerful cards. There are a lot format for broken stategies right now, Legacy, Vintage and Commander. Wizards did not make Modern a format that competes with those. It's a format for rotating standard decks. You now have the option to not sell your standard deck and just buy Modern upgrade cards. It's also for deck brewers because anytime you see a combo interaction you can go ahead and build it if it can win in 4 turns. You can't do that in Legacy or Vintage because combo needs to be winning by turn 2 or 3 in that format.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
I also agree that Golgari Grave-Troll doesn't need a ban, but I don't think too many will argue here.
I don't understand the turn 4 rule in Modern. Are these Combos consistently winning on or before turn 4? I've won numerous times by turn 4 with Griselbrand Reanimator. I've even turn 1, put an Emrakul in play during testing. I've played a match in sanctioned play where I turn 2 won with Griselbrand and Fury of the Horde in both games 1 and 3. This is what I like about the format. Some powerful plays are allowed. Not everyone wants to slog though a match the way BG Midrange does. However you want to explain the "turn 4 Modern rule," it is just stupid to me. Some cards DO need to remain banned and I agree with that. I personally feel that if Bloodbraid Elf is back, then Jace, the Mind Sculptor would be okay. However, I do understand the need to keep Jace + Stoneforge Mystic banned because of how many people were traumatized by them. I would love to see them in the format.
Now with Bitterblossom in the format, we're going to see some cool things. Don't kid yourselves. Bitterblossom is a very powerful card and more powerful than at least 5 cards on the banned list currently. A simple hand of Thoughtseize, Bitterblossom, Scion of Oona, is enough to make any "fair" Modern deck concede and counterspells and hand disruption will destroy Combo decks. Only extreme Aggro decks will hang with Fae and those will mostly be hated out by other decks.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The rule, at least when it was last "codified," was that top tier decks that win consistently before turn 4 are not allowed. Of course, exactly what qualifies as "top tier" and "consistently" are kind of vague.
That's not entirely true. "Top tier" is never a consideration for the turn4 rule. Since by definition, if it can win "consistently" before turn 4(through average levels of disruption), it WILL become a top tier deck. So the only real subjectivity here is the term "consistently." But it's fairly obvious what they mean by that. Storm was winning on turn 3 over 50% of the time in tournament settings. This is clearly a violation of "consistently." Which is why it got hit. Griselbrand can have great draws, but not enough redundancy like storm did to allow it to combo as "consistently," and therefore is not nearly as much an issue.
Now if you look at storm, the ONLY way to interact with storm is counter magic. You can't remove a creature in storm to save you from death. A turn 3 storm death can ONLY be prevented by counter magic, which means if you aren't running blue, you lose.
Now, if a deck can combo out on turn 3, then something like a thoughtseize will obviously slow the deck down to turn 4, but that is still too quick. A turn 4 combo deck getting slowed down to turn 5, however, gives plenty of time for aggro to kill and midrange enough time to find enough answers potentially. If you get pushed back to turn 6 as a pure combo deck, good luck dealing with 4/5 goyf's and hordes of artifacts/beasts...
You do realize that Storm has EVERYTHING from the banned list unbanned in this? How is Storm with Ponder, Preordain, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, and Chrome Mox combined with Past in Flames, Epic Experiment, and Pyromancer's Swath less broken than Cloudpost or Elves?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
"Before Pro Tour Philadelphia, the DCI's stated guideline for the Modern format was to avoid having decks that consistently win the game on turn three. With the results of the Pro Tour in, we are tweaking that goal to not having top-tier decks that consistently win on turn three (or earlier). We also have the goal of maintaining a diverse format."
Source. Emphasis mine.
Yeah, storm would definitely be quite overpowered. I think I just forgot about those cards mainly.
Ok, I thought that you thought that Storm would be fair with everything. I think that with the additions of Seething Song and Rite of Flame, your banned list would be fine.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Ban: Grapeshot
Unban: Seething Song, Ponder, Preordain
Speculate less. Test more.
I have supported this idea for a long time. It would allow All-In Red to be Tier 3 again, allow Ritual Gifts to actually be a good deck, bring Dragonstorm back, make Hive Mind a powerful deck again, and help out many decks that just need a little more consistency as well as Delver decks.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Doubtful? I'd just play Dragonstorm or Hive Mind then. Winning through the stack is superior to combat in every way. If you ban Grapeshot, there are other ways to kill without using haste goblins. Storm is convenient. Banefire also works. It's the engine that makes the decks powerful, not the kill spell. That's why Song was banned in the first place.
It allows more interaction than Grapeshot. It also allows you to win next turn if possible (Splinter Twin for example).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'd want GSZ and DRS(best creature ever printed) on there as well, but that is basically the list that a great number of people want(including RoF and SS). The very utilitarian list banning things that are broken, and letting back in things that were taken out for political reasons("Jund is too popular", "Dredge dominated Extended", "Control is no fun").
And it would work. And it would be great. And literally everyone who I've heard from who has played in "house rules Modern" with said list have had nothing but glowing results from it. But Wizards...seemed to gunshy at the format's onset, and too scared to admit their mistakes. I have faith though that this will be the list in the long run. Whether it be in 2 years or 10 years.
How would it kill without Grapeshot? Milling out with Thought Scour or searching for a singleton Banefire? That just seems bad. The Ascension version is even weaker to graveyard hate than the ritual storm decks. At least it has the advantage of enough free slots that it can play a few Mana Leaks, Spell Snares, Remands, and/or Echoing Truth. Not sure if that's a good trade off in the current metagame.
Speculate less. Test more.
You don't get it. Grapeshot isn't what wins. It's what kills you. The Past in Flames + Ritual (Either Seething Song or Goblin) is what wins.
Personally, I'd like Song back, just to Dragonstorm again.
I never really understood the hatred for Storm, or is it just WoTC catering to bad players
who had a bad experience.
Heck, I used to love losing to my one friend's Storm deck back when it had Song, and for the times he won there were plenty more where
he was hated out.
I'm still adamant that either Jace or Stoneforge will be unbanned in 2015 to help sell ( more ) MM2 packs. Also, since WotC takes into consideration a lot what the pros think and most agree that Bloodbraid Elf is a good Jace counter, I bet she'll be unbanned next year as well. However, I don't see Modern being a format with both Jace and Misty in it, though.
i dont really get whhy people hates the deck so much, it's a combo deck. If you are not prepard to it you are gonna lose, welcome to magic