Valakut and Bitterblossom were also considered too strong by most and decried as potential destroyers of the format.
Actually, most of the people in this thread wanted Bitterblossom to be unbanned. Also, one of the best decks in the format right now is WUR Twin. Imagine that with SFM. I like SFM, but with Batterskull it is too strong (IMO).
If people can not deal with one card in Karn, how the hell does anyone think they can deal with 2 cards, SFM and what every they tutor up?
Wotc sees SFM as a mistake, I believe its going to be some time, if ever, before SFM comes off the list.
To be fair, it is harder to deal with Karn than it is to deal with Batterskull and SFM. And if you deal with Battterskull, unless if the deck that you are facing is running Restoration Angel, you can ignore the Squire that is left behind.
I hope they unban Stoneforge Mystic. A format that allows a Turn 3 Karn Liberated shouldn't have anything to fear from a Turn 4 Lifelink 4/4.
Especially when you consider how much easier it is to interact with Mystic or Batterskull than a planeswalker, or that a number of the combo decks consistently just win on turn four. The banlist works in mysterious ways.
In all honestly though, I think this was another card that was banned for fear of severely warping the format for the worst but I don't remember the reason off the top of my head. Being able to hold up mana to counter something like a turn three Karn then dropping Batterskull end of turn is really good.
Keep in mind that dropping karn turn 3 is a build around while stoneforge Batterskull is totally something slotted into goodstuff decks. Also keep in mind stoneforge is WAY more abusable considering it's an etb effect, it tutors, Batterskull going into play is uncounterable, and if you run her in a vial deck she's uncounterable as well. Fact of the matter is there's far more ways to abuse creatures with etb and tutor effects than a walker. She also puts more constraints on what future Equipments they can create, absolutely killing that design space.
I agree with most of this (I would love an SFM unban, but it couldn't happen with Batterskull in the format. However, it does not restrict future design space much. All that it stops is creating equipment that are so strong that they would most likely break Standard, equipment with high costs and low equip costs (which are almost never created), and powerful equipment with Living Weapon.
True yea but you get where I'm coming from when I say sfm and Batterskull is just a wee bit too strong for the format.
Agreed. I still think that Batterskull being banned and SFM being unbanned would be better for the format.
I would LOVE that for my death and taxes deck haha. It would make running swords so much safer! Not to mention Batterskull is one of the worst threats for my deck to deal with. But yea, extreme bias haha.
I haven't been keeping up with the format as of late but WUR Twin is top tier? SFM is strong, no doubt, but in a format where everyone runs some number of artifact hate and discard is better than counters coupled with the fact there is no Brainstorm or Jace I think she will be found acceptable. How soon I don't know.
I haven't been keeping up with the format as of late but WUR Twin is top tier? SFM is strong, no doubt, but in a format where everyone runs some number of artifact hate and discard is better than counters coupled with the fact there is no Brainstorm or Jace I think she will be found acceptable. How soon I don't know.
WUR Twin is currently at least Tier 1.5. I personally think that SFM with Batterskull might be safe, but it is a little too risky with Batterskull and turn 3 Batterskull is too strong against aggro.
I haven't been keeping up with the format as of late but WUR Twin is top tier? SFM is strong, no doubt, but in a format where everyone runs some number of artifact hate and discard is better than counters coupled with the fact there is no Brainstorm or Jace I think she will be found acceptable. How soon I don't know.
I think it's Jitte that would make SFM overpowered in Modern, as there are far more creatures in decks played in Modern than in the spell-heavy Legacy format. Batterskull is good too, but people play Krosan Grip already for Splinter Twin decks......I think SFM added to the format would be just fine.
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Not just any artifact hate can deal with bustedskull. I actually think there are more ways to deal with a planeswalker then with bustedskull effectively.
Not just any artifact hate can deal with bustedskull. I actually think there are more ways to deal with a planeswalker then with bustedskull effectively.
Normally, it is played without the mana up to bounce it so it does die to all artifact-hate.
How about umezawa's jitte? It has never seen play in Modern. Is it really that busted to remain banned?
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How about umezawa's jitte? It has never seen play in Modern. Is it really that busted to remain banned?
I am unsure. It was banned for being too good with SFM, but now SFM is banned.
I don't play legacy, so I'm not sure how good it really is? But it seems way better in a creature centric format like modern than legacy and it's already good there. I'd love to see it back in, but I'd need more insight on the matter on the risks.
If Jitte put the counters on the creature, I could see it being unbanned, but with it being the way it is, it will be a long time before it is if ever.
How about umezawa's jitte? It has never seen play in Modern. Is it really that busted to remain banned?
I am unsure. It was banned for being too good with SFM, but now SFM is banned.
I don't play legacy, so I'm not sure how good it really is? But it seems way better in a creature centric format like modern than legacy and it's already good there. I'd love to see it back in, but I'd need more insight on the matter on the risks.
Jitte is so poorly designed, they even forgot the combat damage to player clause. Jitte can also kill creatures and gives you life even when it is not equipped. I think it hurts the Vorthos' eyes. As a player I really don't like the card. I played with it and against it in Cube. It was there at least completely nuts. I always felt dirty playing it and hated it to play against it. I really don't want to see it in Modern. Probably I will be forced to play it, because I would be crazy if I would not. I wish that Jitte would have had an old card frame, so it wouldn't have been brought up every ban thread. That thing is just broken/unfun, does too many things for too little effort.
Okay I'll take your word. It does do an awful lot for very very little, and pretty much is broken in any deck with a lot of creatures.
How about umezawa's jitte? It has never seen play in Modern. Is it really that busted to remain banned?
I am unsure. It was banned for being too good with SFM, but now SFM is banned.
I don't play legacy, so I'm not sure how good it really is? But it seems way better in a creature centric format like modern than legacy and it's already good there. I'd love to see it back in, but I'd need more insight on the matter on the risks.
Jitte is so poorly designed, they even forgot the combat damage to player clause. Jitte can also kill creatures and gives you life even when it is not equipped. I think it hurts the Vorthos' eyes. As a player I really don't like the card. I played with it and against it in Cube. It was there at least completely nuts. I always felt dirty playing it and hated it to play against it. I really don't want to see it in Modern. Probably I will be forced to play it, because I would be crazy if I would not. I wish that Jitte would have had an old card frame, so it wouldn't have been brought up every ban thread. That thing is just broken/unfun, does too many things for too little effort.
I didn't even see that it just says "deals combat damage". I'm so used to seeing "deals combat damage to a player." Wow, that is busted. I would still like it unbanned since I recently picked one up, and well, I have one slot open for my Merfolk deck and would love for it to be in there. LOL. I guess I can see now why it would stay on the list.
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Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming. Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
I don't know why everyone keeps bringing up the turn 3 Karn Liberated thing as some kind of standard. Tron can only manage that a small minority of games, and that's if it encounters zero resistance (e.g. no discard or counterspells).
Heck, I'm pretty sure that (again, when goldfishing) Storm can win the game on turn 3 more often than Tron can cast a Karn Liberated.
As for Jitte, if you don't understand why that card is so powerful, play against it just once. You will understand exactly how crazy that card is.
When I was still grasping the most rudimentary aspects of magic I came across Jitte and thought it was awesome. Anyone who has play even 1 game of magic can tell you that. But once you get into the intricacies of the card you come to realize how it is broken and most likely a mistake.
As mentioned, the combat damage clause. Secondly, Jitte can have counters removed when its just sitting on the battlefield w/o being attached to a creature. Card is broken plain and simple. If it were to be unbanned. It would get thrown into pretty much every deck.
I would use it in tokens...Merfolk Jund Zoo Bant etc. It would not allow a deck that is not powerful to now become a force (Like SoTM would) and it would decrease diversity.
In DnT (Legacy) the two Stoneforge targets main are normally Skull and Jitte. The reason is whatever situation one does not answer, the other normally does. That would not be fun here.
Jitte can single handedly win games. Against Burn you use it to mitigate life loss, against creatures it is repeatable removal, against combo or control it is a faster clock. The card is busted and I do enjoy using it, but I would like to keep it where I have access to Force of Will and Piledriver. Just to keep the balance fair.
Jitte is the most busted equipment of all time (Skullclamp is not equipment, it's a draw engine) and it would be better off left on the list for modern.
What would SFM mystic help in modern? I don't really see how it would be healthy for the format. What decks would it enable rather than just pushing the already good piles of good stuff with white in them?
As mentioned, the combat damage clause. Secondly, Jitte can have counters removed when its just sitting on the battlefield w/o being attached to a creature. Card is broken plain and simple. If it were to be unbanned. It would get thrown into pretty much every deck.
No, there's a lot of decks that have little need for a Jitte. None of the combo decks have any real interest in it. GR Tron wouldn't play it. Tempo decks would also find it underwhelming, because as good as it is, spending 2 mana to cast and 2 mana to equip is not how those decks really want to be using their mana.
As powerful as it is, people do need to remember that there's a lot of decks that have no interest in playing it, and a lot of decks that don't care much at all about seeing an opponent have one in play. Of course, in decks that do want to play it, when going up against decks that do fear it, it becomes pretty crazy.
Of course not EVERY deck would play it. I did say pretty much every deck....
Every deck that relies on creature to win would play it. Pod included.
And depends on what kind of tempo you are playing. If they run enough creatures between Snappy young pyromancer I would bet it would at least be a s/b card.
Thanks for pointing out that storm and other combo decks wouldnt play it tho. Is my point any less substantive?
What would SFM mystic help in modern? I don't really see how it would be healthy for the format. What decks would it enable rather than just pushing the already good piles of good stuff with white in them?
It would help out Team Italia, Azorius Midrange, Junk, WUR Geist Midrange, and Naya Midrange, all of which have fallen in popularity recently.
What would SFM mystic help in modern? I don't really see how it would be healthy for the format. What decks would it enable rather than just pushing the already good piles of good stuff with white in them?
It would help out Team Italia, Azorius Midrange, Junk, WUR Geist Midrange, and Naya Midrange, all of which have fallen in popularity recently.
Youre forgetting Death and Taxes. It sees play in Legacy Death and Taxes so it wouldn't be hard to fit it into that or Hatebears.
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What would SFM mystic help in modern? I don't really see how it would be healthy for the format. What decks would it enable rather than just pushing the already good piles of good stuff with white in them?
It would help out Team Italia, Azorius Midrange, Junk, WUR Geist Midrange, and Naya Midrange, all of which have fallen in popularity recently.
Youre forgetting Death and Taxes. It sees play in Legacy Death and Taxes so it wouldn't be hard to fit it into that or Hatebears.
On those 2 it is more debatable due to them playing Leonin Arbiter. However, you are right about them.
I do wonder why a card like top finds itself banned in Modern, but not Legacy where the issue it creates are compounded. That to me says that there is more than a time issue going on. The card is seen as too powerful for Modern (and with a lack of card manipulation in the format, not hard to understand why) overall and is banned for more than just the official reaonsiong.
To be fair, it was banned in Extended for the same reason.
Yes. They ban things for time reasons in all formats that they support. They don't really support any other format aside from Standard and Modern right now. Also in Legacy or Vintage there are also games that are decided in 3 turns so it compensates for some of the times lost to control mirrors.
Actually, most of the people in this thread wanted Bitterblossom to be unbanned. Also, one of the best decks in the format right now is WUR Twin. Imagine that with SFM. I like SFM, but with Batterskull it is too strong (IMO).
Agreed. I still think that Batterskull being banned and SFM being unbanned would be better for the format.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
WUR Twin is currently at least Tier 1.5. I personally think that SFM with Batterskull might be safe, but it is a little too risky with Batterskull and turn 3 Batterskull is too strong against aggro.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I think it's Jitte that would make SFM overpowered in Modern, as there are far more creatures in decks played in Modern than in the spell-heavy Legacy format. Batterskull is good too, but people play Krosan Grip already for Splinter Twin decks......I think SFM added to the format would be just fine.
Normally, it is played without the mana up to bounce it so it does die to all artifact-hate.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming.
Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Originally posted by MemoryLapse and DotMatrix
I am unsure. It was banned for being too good with SFM, but now SFM is banned.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I don't play legacy, so I'm not sure how good it really is? But it seems way better in a creature centric format like modern than legacy and it's already good there. I'd love to see it back in, but I'd need more insight on the matter on the risks.
Okay I'll take your word. It does do an awful lot for very very little, and pretty much is broken in any deck with a lot of creatures.
I didn't even see that it just says "deals combat damage". I'm so used to seeing "deals combat damage to a player." Wow, that is busted. I would still like it unbanned since I recently picked one up, and well, I have one slot open for my Merfolk deck and would love for it to be in there. LOL. I guess I can see now why it would stay on the list.
Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming.
Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Originally posted by MemoryLapse and DotMatrix
Heck, I'm pretty sure that (again, when goldfishing) Storm can win the game on turn 3 more often than Tron can cast a Karn Liberated.
As for Jitte, if you don't understand why that card is so powerful, play against it just once. You will understand exactly how crazy that card is.
As mentioned, the combat damage clause. Secondly, Jitte can have counters removed when its just sitting on the battlefield w/o being attached to a creature. Card is broken plain and simple. If it were to be unbanned. It would get thrown into pretty much every deck.
I would use it in tokens...Merfolk Jund Zoo Bant etc. It would not allow a deck that is not powerful to now become a force (Like SoTM would) and it would decrease diversity.
Jitte can single handedly win games. Against Burn you use it to mitigate life loss, against creatures it is repeatable removal, against combo or control it is a faster clock. The card is busted and I do enjoy using it, but I would like to keep it where I have access to Force of Will and Piledriver. Just to keep the balance fair.
Jitte is the most busted equipment of all time (Skullclamp is not equipment, it's a draw engine) and it would be better off left on the list for modern.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
No, there's a lot of decks that have little need for a Jitte. None of the combo decks have any real interest in it. GR Tron wouldn't play it. Tempo decks would also find it underwhelming, because as good as it is, spending 2 mana to cast and 2 mana to equip is not how those decks really want to be using their mana.
As powerful as it is, people do need to remember that there's a lot of decks that have no interest in playing it, and a lot of decks that don't care much at all about seeing an opponent have one in play. Of course, in decks that do want to play it, when going up against decks that do fear it, it becomes pretty crazy.
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Every deck that relies on creature to win would play it. Pod included.
And depends on what kind of tempo you are playing. If they run enough creatures between Snappy young pyromancer I would bet it would at least be a s/b card.
Thanks for pointing out that storm and other combo decks wouldnt play it tho. Is my point any less substantive?
It would help out Team Italia, Azorius Midrange, Junk, WUR Geist Midrange, and Naya Midrange, all of which have fallen in popularity recently.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Youre forgetting Death and Taxes. It sees play in Legacy Death and Taxes so it wouldn't be hard to fit it into that or Hatebears.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
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BR Reanimator
On those 2 it is more debatable due to them playing Leonin Arbiter. However, you are right about them.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yes. They ban things for time reasons in all formats that they support. They don't really support any other format aside from Standard and Modern right now. Also in Legacy or Vintage there are also games that are decided in 3 turns so it compensates for some of the times lost to control mirrors.
UWR Midrange
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BG Rock
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