It is really annoying. It destroys Snapcaster in Azorius Control. It eats my targets in Reanimator. It makes my life miserable against me in Mill. It warped the format to make more decks run cheap removal, which hurts Delver. However, as I said, it doesn't deserve a ban. Me being annoyed by a card does not mean that it should be added to the banned list.
I know, and I recognised this sentiment from your earlier post. I just wanted to pinpoint the place where the less reasonable people make the leap from "what's best for me" to "what's best for the format".
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
I personally am okay with Deathrite in the format. I have heard about some people wanting it banned, hence my making a thread about it. The only thing about Deathrite that I dislike is that it hoses Snapcaster in UR Delver, but my Zoo deck can handle it just fun. I certainly do not mind the graveyard battles between Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze.
It is really annoying. It destroys Snapcaster in Azorius Control. It eats my targets in Reanimator. It makes my life miserable against me in Mill. It warped the format to make more decks run cheap removal, which hurts Delver. However, as I said, it doesn't deserve a ban. Me being annoyed by a card does not mean that it should be added to the banned list.
I loathe Delver, I'm just going to put that out there for no applicable reason.
Decks ran plenty of removal prior to DRS. The different is that more, efficient removal ( i.e., Abrupt Decay ) was added to the stock pile.
I can imagine DRS being rather frustrating for you with Reanimator, however, I'm a bitter man when it comes to "surprise Emrakul!" decks.
I think he should be. Shake up the format away from 50% Jund by taking away their 1 mana swiss army knife. Too convenient against graveyard strategies which hardly exist in modern.
All graveyard strategies will not miraculously become viable again with just DRS gone. Scavenging Ooze will just camp outside your graveyard and laugh ( or gurgle? ) at you.
Quite frankly, GY strategies only come in degenerate ( Goryo ) and situational slow ( Living End ). The first is what WotC is trying to prevent from happening in Modern, which I fully agree with and I feel no sympathy for the Goryo player who can't rez a T2 Griselbrand on me and gain obscene advantage because of my one drops.
i'm not fond of it, but it doesn't break the t4 rule. It is just probably the best utility creature ever, not broken. an annoying little s**t, not a Mox. beat it, don't ban it
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I loathe Delver, I'm just going to put that out there for no applicable reason.
Decks ran plenty of removal prior to DRS. The different is that more, efficient removal ( i.e., Abrupt Decay ) was added to the stock pile.
I can imagine DRS being rather frustrating for you with Reanimator, however, I'm a bitter man when it comes to "surprise Emrakul!" decks.
From what I have heard, decks like Azorius Midrange became WUR Midrange to combat DRS with Bolt.
Also, I wasn't talking about Griselbrand Reanimator. I was talking about Breaking Bad Reanimator (cascade into Breaking // Entering, cast Entering, reanimate fatty).
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowless10 View Post
the lands of affintiy are exactly as they want it, they cant afford to replace their manlands and other colorless lands with colors, and they need their blue sources
Quote:
pyros bob is more correct, ok?
I'd prefer an extra card to a 1/1 flier, even with tribal synergy. Also, as I have said, there has been extensive testing of Faeries and it isn't broken. If I had room in my Sig, I'd add that to there.
did you mean to write something about affinity comment? thats the point. that the 1/1 flyers with tribal ARE BETTER than one of the best legal modern cards.
I would like to see the preemptive ban, just so I can stop thinking about how afwul this make your own is, but its not really needed.
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Originally Posted by Krovax View Post
I'm currently tinkering with a mono white devotion deck for modern. Give it some time. I do believe devotion decks will pick up some steam in modern. But even devotion decks like to splash colors. So it doesn't have to be 100% mono colored, especially with the mana fixing available.
Monowhite Devotion? That isn't even viable in Standard.
mono white devotion in modern has baneslayers and things, nythos into white fatties could be very promising, I just need to see a list to be sure.
"Punch him in the face" and "punch harder" are unacceptable in WCT. Advocating violence falls under the category of malicious advice. Suspension issued.
- Teia
Remember everyone that ban discussion can only happen in the designated thread here. All other ban discussion is going to be moderated; the Modern Forum Rules are very clear that this is prohibited. I am merging all the other posts in this thread to the banlist discussion to maintain the conversation. Another thread just got closed because of this so this is just a reminder to keep the ban talk in this thread
From what I have heard, decks like Azorius Midrange became WUR Midrange to combat DRS with Bolt.
I can insure you its completely false, most likely said to make DRS seem more format warping. UWR was a thing long before DRS was even a thought in some designer's head, simply because with fetches there's no excuse not to splash R for Lightning Bolt, Helix and Electrolyze. Heck, I was killing DRS with Esper Midrange, and that's considered worse than UWR.
Also, I wasn't talking about Griselbrand Reanimator. I was talking about Breaking Bad Reanimator (cascade into Breaking // Entering, cast Entering, reanimate fatty).
I have to admit I had to look that up just now.
@ktkenshinx: Oh you... I just hit reply when you locked the other thread.
Edit: Good to see sane people were leading the poll 19 to 6.
Just because I don't think anyone has articulated it concisely yet, the 'greed' problem with the fetch/shock manabase isn't about the risk/reward value at 3 colors being off, its about there being almost no penalty from 3c to 4c to 5c. Check this sequence of play:
That gives you 3 mana on turn 2, and if you hit your fetches right, access to all 5 colors at the same time. Or it could just be 2 colors. The cost in life is exactly the same either way. So its not the fetch/shock combo that is the problem...its the lack of ability to punish a player for getting greedy with it.
For example, lets say we get Wild Nacatl back. We'll assume you play it in a Naya shell (duh). If you want black, it becomes dark Naya. If you want blue, it becomes counter-cat or Aquarium or whatever. If you want both it becomes all of them and you might as well throw in Tribal Flame cuz Domain. But they're all just variations of Naya. And that's what leads to the lack of diversity. Its because its so easy to drop into extra colors and no incentive to just stay to 3c. There's no real risk brought about by getting greedy when the cost in life would be the same as staying straight Naya.
So there's got to be something that can be done to nip a single land, early enough in the game to hurt a 4 or 5c deck but without crippling the 3c deck.
Legacy suggests it might be that a well timed Wasteland is priceless. Maybe in Modern it will be Ruination to make them think twice about it going into the late game. Maybe both of those are too hardcore and can be toned down, but better than TecEdge and Thoughts of Ruin. Either way, this isn't the place for that discussion.
But what we can be certain of is this - the risk/reward ratio between 3 and 5 color shouldn't stay the same as you add more colors. I don't think that means we need a ban on fetch lands. But maybe we need something to punish the 4c and 5c in the name of defeating greedy.goodstuff.dec, because in the long term, continuing that trend is going to keep us talking about stuff like DRS and questioning whether Nacatl, SFM, BB, etc can ever come off when they're so easily splashable into any deck.
If 4 and 5 color decks are so easy then why is it that there are no 5 color decks and the only 4 color deck is essentially Jund with Ajani/Lingering Souls. Both of witch don't need the off color mana until t3.
If 4 and 5 color decks are so easy then why is it that there are no 5 color decks and the only 4 color deck is essentially Jund with Ajani/Lingering Souls. Both of witch don't need the off color mana until t3.
While I agree with you, Kiki Pod is usually 4 colors and Restore Balance and Domain Zoo are both 5 colors.
Yet, these decks still winning... because all this loss is not that relevant. Unless you face a heavy burn deck, it doesn't matter if you have 10 or 20, most decks, once they enter in an advantageous position, will kill you.
People are not going "down to 13-15 life turn 1 just to have the color they need n the table turn 1." They are not losing this life exclusively for mana, they are also disrupting the opponent, a disruption that in many cases are far more relevant than 5 life.
Becuase if he does that blindly, he is stupid, and stupidity should be punished.
Some people are stupid and blindly go 15 life against decks that this is loss is relevant, but whe shouldn't evalute this based on bad players. Good players know when they can go 15 life on turn 1, and when they can't.
The reward for going 3+ color is too much higher than the risks, the reason that we nearly don't see any sucessful mono color deck, because it's simply better to "splash another color".
I just had this awesome idea: a wasteland variant with "use only if the lands target player controls can produce at least 3 different color types. Each land can only count 1 color". Could be balanced :D.
But I still think that if anything should be done about the mana bases, they should print good cards against the fetches and not the shocklands or any other dual land that already comes with a drawback. Fetches are the best lands even in legacy over the abur duals.
A card is so much better than a fearie. A 1/1 flying fearie is not worth a single card, even at zero mana. Only after Bitterblossem has made a total of three tokens is that impressive, and only if in a deck that has synergy with them. Arena at two mana exists. His name is Bob, and he is insanely good. Bitterblossem is no Bob.
It will be played in tokens, fea, and an occasional other deck. Tokens will be good, fea will still suck, and those other decks aren't named Jund, so no one will care. Tokens could use the boost, so I say unban.
I've played tokens enough to know it won't still be good enough. At least until the meta isn't free of maindecks pyroclasms, pulses, etc. If it got unbanned many more volcanic fallouts will show on the sideboards.
While I agree with you, Kiki Pod is usually 4 colors and Restore Balance and Domain Zoo are both 5 colors.
True, but these decks also have things that set them apart from something like UWR adding black or Jund adding white.
Kiki Pod usually plays 8 mana dorks that let them cast their stuff plus Birthing Pod to cheat things in. It's still a pretty greedy mana base though so sure it's another example.
Restore Balance is generally a three color deck that has a fourth color by necessity. The last two Balance decks that performed on MTGO were a UWR deck that had green only for Violent Outburst (a card that is essential to the design of the deck) and the other was Jund with the only white card being Restore Balance. Not something they'll be actually casting.
Domain Zoo is just a greedy mana base by design. They actively want as many different land types as possible. Even here though when you have all the colors the deck typically only plays cards from three of them with a few white cards and no black.
While this ^^^ was coming on a wee bit (or a lot a bit) strong I do generally agree. Fetches and shocks allow for more interesting choice in deckbuilding and playing. Why would we not want to support the ability to splash whatever we think will be the best synergy for w/e deck we are building? Mono colored decks make this much more...well....boring. I.e. like standard is right now with all those dumb mono-colored decks owning the format.
It's not an choice if one of the options is always worse.
You must play fetches if you are running a non-colorless deck. You say that "mono colored is boring", boring for you maybe, but what about those who want this option without being automatically worse?
To actually make fetches and splash a choice, there must be some reasoning support both cases, currently there is near to no reason to not run multicolor.
You talk about standard, but if you really follow it, you know that beside the two main mono color decks (MonoU and MonoB devotion), all the others high tier decks are 2/3 colors (RG Monsters, UWx control, UWx aggro, RW devotion). This is options, you can go "boring" or go "interesting", it's your choice.
Also "interesting" and "boring" are subjetive. I think that options are interesting, options that actually have their own sets of advantages and disvantages. Currently one of the options grant no advantage, so it ends that the other option is the only real option.
Ok... but with splashes, the hate you are proposing, unless it is VERY costly to the person who is playing the non-basics, won't do much. So, what should we do about that? Make the hate reallllllllly nasty? Well, now we're ruining 80% of the decks in the format with one card.
For that i think that something on the lines of stifle would be the better option.
Most greedy decks leans totally on the back of fetches, so something that hose fetches that is actually playable could give a huge help.
Currently all things that can hoses fetches cost 2 or more (Shadow of Doubt, Squelch, Trickbind, Leonin Arbiter...). If we had something that would cause them to timewalk on the first turn, then people would be more wary of running fetches, and then only decks that requires multicolor to operate would use this resources.
If you look at legacy, because the high ammount of powerful hate, only decks that really requires multiple colors actually runs them.
Also, as I have said, there has been extensive testing of Faeries and it isn't broken.
You keep repeating that over and over again, so would you like to answer my question from a couple of pages back? Which lists were tested (the Fae lists in detail, not the colour combinations)?
I guess some people are really underestimating BB as they probably didn't have really tweaked lists. **
**Although I'm still not saying one shouldn't unban it, I'm just curious how the tests went but couldn't find anything besides a really REALLY janky list in an old "banned list testing" thread
If I was WOTC, I would unban both Wild Nacatl and Sword of the Meek. If not Sword of the Meek, then Bitterblossom, but it would need to be reprinted in some thing like an event deck right away so that the price doesn't spike too high.
This would give a boost to both aggro and control which is sorely needed and they would both balance each other out a little so neither would become overpowered. SotM and BB both serve similar purposes in that they help out a couple of currently niche archtypes and increase deck diversity. Zoo would be another good aggro deck and I don't believe it would push out decks like Affinity, Burn, or Merfolk. Sword wouldn't really fit into any current archtypes and could make Tezzerator viable. BB would bring both faeries and tokens up to tier 1-2 status.
GGT would also be a good unban but I don't think Wotc will ever unban 3 or more cards at once. It would be like admitting they were very wrong on the ban list. If none of the above cards or any others get unbanned, the least they could do is unban at least GGT as a show of faith that they will at least consider unbanning cards from time to time besides just Valakut since GGT is a joke of a card on the ban list. GGT should have unbanned at any point after DR was banned since GGT doesn't really do any thing without DR.
But what we can be certain of is this - the risk/reward ratio between 3 and 5 color shouldn't stay the same as you add more colors. I don't think that means we need a ban on fetch lands. But maybe we need something to punish the 4c and 5c in the name of defeating greedy.goodstuff.dec, because in the long term, continuing that trend is going to keep us talking about stuff like DRS and questioning whether Nacatl, SFM, BB, etc can ever come off when they're so easily splashable into any deck.
You realize that cards like Wasteland make DRS a LOT better than he already is, right? One of the strongest things about Maverick as a deck in Legacy used to be combining Hierarch with Wasteland (and Knight, to repeatedly waste them). Now it's usually DRS + Wasteland in Legacy since he's an even stronger one-drop. On the play, turn 1 DRS, turn 2 waste your land + Bob (or whatever) is basically game over in Modern.
Generally speaking, mana dorks become even stronger when combined with aggressive mana disruption. Even Birds of Paradise + Stone Rain was a thing in Standard. It ups the importance of being on the play as well.
I hope that everyone advocating for the ban of fetchlands understands that one of the biggest complaints about Modern is the lack of diversity, and more importantly, the linear "all in" nature of almost every deck in the format outside of B/G/x, U/W/x, and Pod.
I also hope everyone getting their jimmies rustled from those advocating for the ban of fetchlands understands that this conversation is not to be taken seriously. It's essentially the argument that a card should be banned because it's too efficient, while enabling nothing inherently broken. It falls in the same boat as the ban Goyf, ban DRS crowd. It makes me wonder how many of these players have actually participated in a truly oppressive meta, as the current modern format couldn't be further from that.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I hope that everyone advocating for the ban of fetchlands understands that one of the biggest complaints about Modern is the lack of diversity, and more importantly, the linear "all in" nature of almost every deck in the format outside of B/G/x, U/W/x, and Pod.
I also hope everyone getting their jimmies rustled from those advocating for the ban of fetchlands understands that this conversation is not to be taken seriously. It's essentially the argument that a card should be banned because it's too efficient, while enabling nothing inherently broken. It falls in the same boat as the ban Goyf, ban DRS crowd. It makes me wonder how many of these players have actually participated in a truly oppressive meta, as the current modern format couldn't be further from that.
If you read a lot and talk to a numerous players at events, you will find the spectrum os wants for the format. There are some grinders that wish the format was more narrow and easier to meta game for. These people like oppressive metas because its easier to set up decks and side boards for that type of meta. Not too much wiggle room in deck creation. Then on the other side of the coin are those wanting a brewers dream and complain the format is not open enough. These players want more decks tournament viable then we have now. The we have those who enjoy the format as it is. Of course its hard to find a group that all agree on power level also.
So seeing people suggest different views on the format is easier to understand. When there are pros writing in their weekly/monthly articles they believe fetches should be banned, its easy to see some regular Joe's feeling the same.
I had been hopeful that Theros block was going to provide some cards that impact modern that made thinking about the banned list one way or another moot.
Sadly, that seems to have not happened. Maybe the spring set will be where all the goodies are for us, but my hopes are greatly diminished at this point. And with no MM2 officially announced to give us the glimmer of hope that we might get new cards printed in it tailored for modern any time soon.
With all that in mind, I just want them to do SOMETHING. I have been a major advocate for extensive further bannings, and that is still my dream option, but I am still living in reality and understand thats very unlikely.
I think Chapin has a very good handle on where we are with the format. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27795_Control-Ephara-The-Modern-Banned-List.html
He's not headlong behind either bannings or unbannings (he favors one as a personal interest and believes the other is better for the overall health of the format), but is mostly just against this living between worlds thing WotC has going right now.
I think there is some merit in his prospective list of new bans containing Deathrite Shaman/Melira/Kiki-Jiki/Snapcaster. But I'm on board with several other configurations they might try as well.
But we all know that I am ban-happy. But I am also down with them taking a hard look at what is already banned, and taking some chances with unbanning some things. There are some things on the list that haven't really earned their place. Then there are others that I can agree are correct to ban if you want to take the bannings to their logical conclusion (Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, Sword of the Meek, etc) but that make very little sense if you are going to continue to allow some of the things that are just as powerful as those (or more so) to remain legal.
So all I want is for them to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING, and do it with conviction. I want them to set a clear precedent of what they want out of modern and stop tiptoeing about.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
It's not an choice if one of the options is always worse.
You must play fetches if you are running a non-colorless deck. You say that "mono colored is boring", boring for you maybe, but what about those who want this option without being automatically worse?
To actually make fetches and splash a choice, there must be some reasoning support both cases, currently there is near to no reason to not run multicolor.
You talk about standard, but if you really follow it, you know that beside the two main mono color decks (MonoU and MonoB devotion), all the others high tier decks are 2/3 colors (RG Monsters, UWx control, UWx aggro, RW devotion). This is options, you can go "boring" or go "interesting", it's your choice.
Also "interesting" and "boring" are subjetive. I think that options are interesting, options that actually have their own sets of advantages and disvantages. Currently one of the options grant no advantage, so it ends that the other option is the only real option.
For that i think that something on the lines of stifle would be the better option.
Most greedy decks leans totally on the back of fetches, so something that hose fetches that is actually playable could give a huge help.
Currently all things that can hoses fetches cost 2 or more (Shadow of Doubt, Squelch, Trickbind, Leonin Arbiter...). If we had something that would cause them to timewalk on the first turn, then people would be more wary of running fetches, and then only decks that requires multicolor to operate would use this resources.
If you look at legacy, because the high ammount of powerful hate, only decks that really requires multiple colors actually runs them.
No, your correct, it is all in the eye of the beholder. And maybe what we are actually talking about is just the bane of an eternal format. In this sense having access to the best cards from magic, or in the case of modern most of them, why would you not play the best or most synergistic cards regardless of color?
I know, and I recognised this sentiment from your earlier post. I just wanted to pinpoint the place where the less reasonable people make the leap from "what's best for me" to "what's best for the format".
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
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I loathe Delver, I'm just going to put that out there for no applicable reason.
Decks ran plenty of removal prior to DRS. The different is that more, efficient removal ( i.e., Abrupt Decay ) was added to the stock pile.
I can imagine DRS being rather frustrating for you with Reanimator, however, I'm a bitter man when it comes to "surprise Emrakul!" decks.
All graveyard strategies will not miraculously become viable again with just DRS gone. Scavenging Ooze will just camp outside your graveyard and laugh ( or gurgle? ) at you.
Quite frankly, GY strategies only come in degenerate ( Goryo ) and situational slow ( Living End ). The first is what WotC is trying to prevent from happening in Modern, which I fully agree with and I feel no sympathy for the Goryo player who can't rez a T2 Griselbrand on me and gain obscene advantage because of my one drops.
and this is the caliber of player who did "pre modern testing." that explains much.
From what I have heard, decks like Azorius Midrange became WUR Midrange to combat DRS with Bolt.
Also, I wasn't talking about Griselbrand Reanimator. I was talking about Breaking Bad Reanimator (cascade into Breaking // Entering, cast Entering, reanimate fatty).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
did you mean to write something about affinity comment? thats the point. that the 1/1 flyers with tribal ARE BETTER than one of the best legal modern cards.
I would like to see the preemptive ban, just so I can stop thinking about how afwul this make your own is, but its not really needed.
mono white devotion in modern has baneslayers and things, nythos into white fatties could be very promising, I just need to see a list to be sure.
I can insure you its completely false, most likely said to make DRS seem more format warping. UWR was a thing long before DRS was even a thought in some designer's head, simply because with fetches there's no excuse not to splash R for Lightning Bolt, Helix and Electrolyze. Heck, I was killing DRS with Esper Midrange, and that's considered worse than UWR.
I have to admit I had to look that up just now.
@ktkenshinx: Oh you... I just hit reply when you locked the other thread.
Edit: Good to see sane people were leading the poll 19 to 6.
Fetch (19), Shock (17), DRS
Fetch (16), Shock (14), tap DRS exiling fetch
That gives you 3 mana on turn 2, and if you hit your fetches right, access to all 5 colors at the same time. Or it could just be 2 colors. The cost in life is exactly the same either way. So its not the fetch/shock combo that is the problem...its the lack of ability to punish a player for getting greedy with it.
For example, lets say we get Wild Nacatl back. We'll assume you play it in a Naya shell (duh). If you want black, it becomes dark Naya. If you want blue, it becomes counter-cat or Aquarium or whatever. If you want both it becomes all of them and you might as well throw in Tribal Flame cuz Domain. But they're all just variations of Naya. And that's what leads to the lack of diversity. Its because its so easy to drop into extra colors and no incentive to just stay to 3c. There's no real risk brought about by getting greedy when the cost in life would be the same as staying straight Naya.
So there's got to be something that can be done to nip a single land, early enough in the game to hurt a 4 or 5c deck but without crippling the 3c deck.
Legacy suggests it might be that a well timed Wasteland is priceless. Maybe in Modern it will be Ruination to make them think twice about it going into the late game. Maybe both of those are too hardcore and can be toned down, but better than TecEdge and Thoughts of Ruin. Either way, this isn't the place for that discussion.
But what we can be certain of is this - the risk/reward ratio between 3 and 5 color shouldn't stay the same as you add more colors. I don't think that means we need a ban on fetch lands. But maybe we need something to punish the 4c and 5c in the name of defeating greedy.goodstuff.dec, because in the long term, continuing that trend is going to keep us talking about stuff like DRS and questioning whether Nacatl, SFM, BB, etc can ever come off when they're so easily splashable into any deck.
Speculate less. Test more.
Of Devotion cards? No it doesn't.
While I agree with you, Kiki Pod is usually 4 colors and Restore Balance and Domain Zoo are both 5 colors.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I just had this awesome idea: a wasteland variant with "use only if the lands target player controls can produce at least 3 different color types. Each land can only count 1 color". Could be balanced :D.
But I still think that if anything should be done about the mana bases, they should print good cards against the fetches and not the shocklands or any other dual land that already comes with a drawback. Fetches are the best lands even in legacy over the abur duals.
I've played tokens enough to know it won't still be good enough. At least until the meta isn't free of maindecks pyroclasms, pulses, etc. If it got unbanned many more volcanic fallouts will show on the sideboards.
True, but these decks also have things that set them apart from something like UWR adding black or Jund adding white.
Kiki Pod usually plays 8 mana dorks that let them cast their stuff plus Birthing Pod to cheat things in. It's still a pretty greedy mana base though so sure it's another example.
Restore Balance is generally a three color deck that has a fourth color by necessity. The last two Balance decks that performed on MTGO were a UWR deck that had green only for Violent Outburst (a card that is essential to the design of the deck) and the other was Jund with the only white card being Restore Balance. Not something they'll be actually casting.
Domain Zoo is just a greedy mana base by design. They actively want as many different land types as possible. Even here though when you have all the colors the deck typically only plays cards from three of them with a few white cards and no black.
It's not an choice if one of the options is always worse.
You must play fetches if you are running a non-colorless deck. You say that "mono colored is boring", boring for you maybe, but what about those who want this option without being automatically worse?
To actually make fetches and splash a choice, there must be some reasoning support both cases, currently there is near to no reason to not run multicolor.
You talk about standard, but if you really follow it, you know that beside the two main mono color decks (MonoU and MonoB devotion), all the others high tier decks are 2/3 colors (RG Monsters, UWx control, UWx aggro, RW devotion). This is options, you can go "boring" or go "interesting", it's your choice.
Also "interesting" and "boring" are subjetive. I think that options are interesting, options that actually have their own sets of advantages and disvantages. Currently one of the options grant no advantage, so it ends that the other option is the only real option.
For that i think that something on the lines of stifle would be the better option.
Most greedy decks leans totally on the back of fetches, so something that hose fetches that is actually playable could give a huge help.
Currently all things that can hoses fetches cost 2 or more (Shadow of Doubt, Squelch, Trickbind, Leonin Arbiter...). If we had something that would cause them to timewalk on the first turn, then people would be more wary of running fetches, and then only decks that requires multicolor to operate would use this resources.
If you look at legacy, because the high ammount of powerful hate, only decks that really requires multiple colors actually runs them.
You keep repeating that over and over again, so would you like to answer my question from a couple of pages back? Which lists were tested (the Fae lists in detail, not the colour combinations)?
I guess some people are really underestimating BB as they probably didn't have really tweaked lists. **
**Although I'm still not saying one shouldn't unban it, I'm just curious how the tests went but couldn't find anything besides a really REALLY janky list in an old "banned list testing" thread
This would give a boost to both aggro and control which is sorely needed and they would both balance each other out a little so neither would become overpowered. SotM and BB both serve similar purposes in that they help out a couple of currently niche archtypes and increase deck diversity. Zoo would be another good aggro deck and I don't believe it would push out decks like Affinity, Burn, or Merfolk. Sword wouldn't really fit into any current archtypes and could make Tezzerator viable. BB would bring both faeries and tokens up to tier 1-2 status.
GGT would also be a good unban but I don't think Wotc will ever unban 3 or more cards at once. It would be like admitting they were very wrong on the ban list. If none of the above cards or any others get unbanned, the least they could do is unban at least GGT as a show of faith that they will at least consider unbanning cards from time to time besides just Valakut since GGT is a joke of a card on the ban list. GGT should have unbanned at any point after DR was banned since GGT doesn't really do any thing without DR.
This is recently, and not the group of players that tested. but nice back handed comment...:rolleyes:
You realize that cards like Wasteland make DRS a LOT better than he already is, right? One of the strongest things about Maverick as a deck in Legacy used to be combining Hierarch with Wasteland (and Knight, to repeatedly waste them). Now it's usually DRS + Wasteland in Legacy since he's an even stronger one-drop. On the play, turn 1 DRS, turn 2 waste your land + Bob (or whatever) is basically game over in Modern.
Generally speaking, mana dorks become even stronger when combined with aggressive mana disruption. Even Birds of Paradise + Stone Rain was a thing in Standard. It ups the importance of being on the play as well.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WB Amalia Benavides Aguirre
I also hope everyone getting their jimmies rustled from those advocating for the ban of fetchlands understands that this conversation is not to be taken seriously. It's essentially the argument that a card should be banned because it's too efficient, while enabling nothing inherently broken. It falls in the same boat as the ban Goyf, ban DRS crowd. It makes me wonder how many of these players have actually participated in a truly oppressive meta, as the current modern format couldn't be further from that.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
If you read a lot and talk to a numerous players at events, you will find the spectrum os wants for the format. There are some grinders that wish the format was more narrow and easier to meta game for. These people like oppressive metas because its easier to set up decks and side boards for that type of meta. Not too much wiggle room in deck creation. Then on the other side of the coin are those wanting a brewers dream and complain the format is not open enough. These players want more decks tournament viable then we have now. The we have those who enjoy the format as it is. Of course its hard to find a group that all agree on power level also.
So seeing people suggest different views on the format is easier to understand. When there are pros writing in their weekly/monthly articles they believe fetches should be banned, its easy to see some regular Joe's feeling the same.
Same. Maybe I will pick up a new hobby like watching paint dry... That should be a bit more interesting
RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
URThe Locust godUR
Modern
UWMiraclesUW
Legacy
BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
RGLandsRG
Sadly, that seems to have not happened. Maybe the spring set will be where all the goodies are for us, but my hopes are greatly diminished at this point. And with no MM2 officially announced to give us the glimmer of hope that we might get new cards printed in it tailored for modern any time soon.
With all that in mind, I just want them to do SOMETHING. I have been a major advocate for extensive further bannings, and that is still my dream option, but I am still living in reality and understand thats very unlikely.
I think Chapin has a very good handle on where we are with the format.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27795_Control-Ephara-The-Modern-Banned-List.html
He's not headlong behind either bannings or unbannings (he favors one as a personal interest and believes the other is better for the overall health of the format), but is mostly just against this living between worlds thing WotC has going right now.
I think there is some merit in his prospective list of new bans containing Deathrite Shaman/Melira/Kiki-Jiki/Snapcaster. But I'm on board with several other configurations they might try as well.
But we all know that I am ban-happy. But I am also down with them taking a hard look at what is already banned, and taking some chances with unbanning some things. There are some things on the list that haven't really earned their place. Then there are others that I can agree are correct to ban if you want to take the bannings to their logical conclusion (Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, Sword of the Meek, etc) but that make very little sense if you are going to continue to allow some of the things that are just as powerful as those (or more so) to remain legal.
So all I want is for them to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING, and do it with conviction. I want them to set a clear precedent of what they want out of modern and stop tiptoeing about.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
No, your correct, it is all in the eye of the beholder. And maybe what we are actually talking about is just the bane of an eternal format. In this sense having access to the best cards from magic, or in the case of modern most of them, why would you not play the best or most synergistic cards regardless of color?
UWRMiraclesRWU
Modern
UWRControlRWU
Standard
Ummm no...
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