Ban hammer.
As usual, Modern's ban list is always a hot topic. As such for about a week and a half during ban list announcements, we put up a temp thread so gut reactions can be had... before we wrath of god it and start clean and fresh once more.
But this time I added a shiny poll, so it's fun and everyone is happy.
Same rules apply as all the other ban threads. Don't murder anyone please.
Read this first.
Welcome to the Modern banlist discussion! Here, you can discuss everything related to the banlist, from questioning the possibility of unbans to recent announcements of new bannings.
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Remember, this is a place to discuss, and have fun. Keep it civil.
Big Update for this most recent announcement:
Lantern. Fill Me in when the time is right
To summarize Wizards' position, they feel they have banned cards that give decks the ability to either win or be in a controlling position by turn 3.
These cards fall in that list:
Ancient Den
Blazing Shoal
Chrome Mox
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Hypergenesis
Seat of the Synod
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers
The other main category of cards exist because they make decks too consistant/reliable and thus hamper the deck diversity of the metagame. I think these cards are the best candidates for an unbanning.
Ancestral Vision
Bitterblossom
Cloudpost
Green Sun's Zenith
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Stoneforge Mystic
Umezawa's Jitte
Then there are cards which wizards currently feels were mistakes or were never really tested in eternal formats.
Skullclamp
I realize Jace/Stoneforge could possibly be here depending on your point of view.
I know that everyone can't wait for the ban announcement. I also know that mods are being lenient in this thread because we expect knee-jerk, spammy, and lower quality discussion with the banlist announcement just around the corner. But try and keep posts on topic and constructive (KEEP IT ON BANS). Don't flame other users either; remember to criticize the idea and not insult the poster
I'm basically of the opinion that nothing that breaks the turn 4 rule of the format should be banned. It would create a more powerful modern BUT it would still be significantly different than legacy since there's no fast combo.
I think we've seen sufficient evidence that the format needs its power level to be raised, not lowered, from the dominance of the BGx shell. Jund already had something banned from it and here we are again talking about banning another card because the sum of its parts creates something stronger than most other decks in modern.
If we allow other decks to be powered up to that level, we will see a completely different format, but its still one that wouldnt be anything like the eternal formats. We'd have efficient midrange, aggro, tempo, and control strategies. We'd be missing fast combo, but I think its basically exactly what Wizards wants.
----
Edit: Of course I am under no delusion that this is likely. There will be no changes.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Darn you, I wanted to drop a massive rage post on someone but you closed the thread before I could click post!!!
@thedasuri
You guys are all serious optimists in expecting unbans. I doubt something gets unbanned for a long long time.
by the time wizards gets around to unbanning fun stuff, most of us will be living in nursing homes.
--------------------------------------
even if an unban did happen don't fall for the price spike fiasco, such as what happened with legacy's land tax unbanning shot through the roof, and all of the decks that played it still sucked, making it a pure speculators folly.
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Collaborative Pub: Ice Cold Thoughts Always On Tap Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
what i would like to see and what i think will actually happen are vastly different.
anywho, i voted:
stoneforge
artifact lands
preordain
seething song
bitterblossom
ancestral vision
and add something to the ban list
i've always been a fan of banning plating and disciple and getting artifact lands back. the rest of my choices are self explanatory.
stoneforge - not broken in the grand scheme of what you can do in this format on turns 2 and 3.
seething song - enable storm to poop on BGx decks. get some semblance of a triangle meta going.
preordain - card filtering is good
bitterblossom - because i want to play with it.
AV - it won't actually do anything. WUR control would like it, but until the deck switches to a better win con than colonnade, it'll still be average.
if newly printed hate was enough to get stuff unbanned, blossom would have come off ages ago.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
I'd like to see DRS go away. The card does too much for a 1-drop that has above-the-norm P/T.
I also would like Gravetroll back, just because I think it would make the format more interesting. Dredge is a fun deck to play against; the interactions are unique and fresh compared to more typical ones.
I'm not entirely convinced we'll get an unban now, but they have to start unbanning eventually, so no harm in being optimistic. I'd like to see a BB unban, as well as a few others, but I think a GGT or AV unban is most likely, and I can't see them unbanning more than one thing at a time.
Anyway, I voted:
Golgari-grave troll
Bitterblossom
Wild nacatl
Ancestral visions
Jace, the mind sculptor
And Dread return
Jace and dread return aren't necessarily safe unbans, but I think they need to be given a proper chance.
Unbans:
Wild Nacatl
Preordain
Chrome Mox
Bitterblossom
Golgari Grave-Troll
Green Sun's Zenith
Bans:
Dryad Arbor
Goryo's Vengeance
Basically, Nacatl is fine, everyone knows that. Except the DCI. Hope they learned that.
Preordain would be fine. Without Seething Song, Storm is a non-factor and pure Combo Twin is badly positioned against BGx and I doubt it's too good against UWR. Preordain would only advance fair blue decks.
GGT is a fine card, Dredge is not a real deck and there is no Dread Return. Just unban it already.
Bitterblossom is risky, but I think that the meta could handle a bunch of Faerie tokens at the moment and Fae would be an enrichment to the format.
Green Sun's Zenith is probably the riskiest card I'm suggesting, but I still think it's fine - under the condition that Dryad Arbor gets banned. What breaks GSZ is the ability to be a mana dork for 1 mana and a threat for more, being live all game and the best card in any green deck. Removing Dryad Arbor would get it back to where it should be - a tutor for random silver bullets.
Chrome Mox is fine under the condition that Goryo's Vengeance gets banned, otherwise that deck could kill you on turn 1. It can already kill people somewhat reliably on turn 2 and turn 3 is it's regular goldfish, from what I've noticed. Banning GV and bringing in Mox would enable a Thirst for Knowledge fueled Control deck, possibly featuring Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. It would speed up Twin, but I doubt they want more speed.
I'd like to see...
Ban: Nothing
Unban:
Wild Nacatl: Could help agro be a real contender.
Ponder/Preordain: I think tempo needs a boost, it's not like combo decks will be able to break the turn 4 rule with these.
Golgari Grave Troll: This does nothing without dread return, so yea, unban it.
Sword of the Meek: It's a slow combo that's easily hated, and it helps out control, which really needs it.
And I forgot to vote for it but...
Ancestral Vision: Like I said control needs a boost.
I would be interested in unbanning Bitterblossom, but I'm afraid it will slot right into g/b/x decks, so I think it needs to stay banned. Imagine straight rock decks using bitterblossom, manabase is easier than junk, jund, or ajundi, so less damage taken overall, and a steady stream of 1/1's starting turn 3 to make sure you can't ever get through, no thanks. At least sword/foundry combo has to find 2 pieces and still sink mana into it.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I also would like Gravetroll back, just because I think it would make the format more interesting. Dredge is a fun deck to play against; the interactions are unique and fresh compared to more typical ones.
Golgari Grave-Troll wouldn't make the format more interesting. It wouldn't make the format more anything because without Dread Return you can't really do much with Dredge.
The real reason it should be unbanned is simple principle: It's not overpowered. In fact, it's actually quite underpowered without Dread Return.
While it should be unbanned, it being unbanned is nothing to get excited over because it would, at best, elevate one or two Tier 3 decks to Tier 2.5.
Didn't realize this was a multiple choice poll. Anyways, I voted:
Unban Sword of the Meek.
If I had noticed it was a multiple choice poll, I would have also selected
No Changes
IMO, the format is almost perfect, but control is still too weak. Only and exactly Sword would bring control up a notch and create a perfect format, for me at least.
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Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Damn I hope none of my cards will get hammered out
Also: gogo wild nacatl! I wouldnt play you, but you deserve to be unbanned.
I heard a rumor about the banning of deathrite shaman, am i the only one scarred?
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Playing modern: all BGx, storm, burn, green eldrazi, dredge.
Unbanning nacatl brings another aggro deck into the format (not to mention one that doesn't die to pyroclasm) and offers a deck that's easy to prey upon with MBC.
Unbaning grave troll does nothing outside of extreme circumstances and thus shouldn't be on the list.
Bitterblossom is a wish of mine, I want to play it in MBC
no changes. For awhile I was for banning DRS as it's quite powerful for a one drop but I do not believe it warps the format. I would not mind to see it go but not bothered if it sticks around.
I would say safe unbannes are:
Wild Nactl
Bloodbraid Elf (only if the unban Jace)
Jace TMS (only if they unban BBE)
I will also say I would not be surprised if they banned Deathrite Shaman, but I dont think its needed. If they want to unban BBE Deathrite should go.
All in all Wild Nactl is easily the safest unban along with Visions
Bitterblossom is a safe card to unban now... the amount of MD removal for it is absurd, and fae can only run 4 copies of scion of oona... a 1/1 dies to pyroclasm as well as the rest of the deck. Fae is not nearly as strong as it would have been in standard/extended... Abrupt Decay says hello.
Bitterblossom is a safe card to unban now... the amount of MD removal for it is absurd, and fae can only run 4 copies of scion of oona... a 1/1 dies to pyroclasm as well as the rest of the deck. Fae is not nearly as strong as it would have been in standard/extended... Abrupt Decay says hello.
I disagree, the top tier decks that play decay only play 2 tops in the 75.
The deck would be very strong with IoKs Thoughtseizes, and then all the fae. Also Pryoclasm doesnt do much with a deck full of discard spells, Spellstutter Sprites, and V Cliques.
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Deathrite Shaman is banned. Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl are unbanned.
(Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/285)
UNBANNED!
Ban hammer.
As usual, Modern's ban list is always a hot topic. As such for about a week and a half during ban list announcements, we put up a temp thread so gut reactions can be had... before we wrath of god it and start clean and fresh once more.
But this time I added a shiny poll, so it's fun and everyone is happy.
Same rules apply as all the other ban threads. Don't murder anyone please.
Current DCI Modern Banned List
Big Update for this most recent announcement:
Lantern. Fill Me in when the time is right
To summarize Wizards' position, they feel they have banned cards that give decks the ability to either win or be in a controlling position by turn 3.
These cards fall in that list:
Ancient Den
Blazing Shoal
Chrome Mox
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Hypergenesis
Seat of the Synod
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers
The other main category of cards exist because they make decks too consistant/reliable and thus hamper the deck diversity of the metagame. I think these cards are the best candidates for an unbanning.
Ancestral Vision
Bitterblossom
Cloudpost
Green Sun's Zenith
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Stoneforge Mystic
Umezawa's Jitte
Then there are cards which wizards currently feels were mistakes or were never really tested in eternal formats.
Skullclamp
I realize Jace/Stoneforge could possibly be here depending on your point of view.
Made games last too long:
Sensei's Divining Top
Second Sunrise
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
1st Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
3rd Banned List change with explanations
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Addition of Second Sunrise
Old threads:
1/27/14
6/23/13
4/22/13
9/20/12
6/20/12
I know that everyone can't wait for the ban announcement. I also know that mods are being lenient in this thread because we expect knee-jerk, spammy, and lower quality discussion with the banlist announcement just around the corner. But try and keep posts on topic and constructive (KEEP IT ON BANS). Don't flame other users either; remember to criticize the idea and not insult the poster
I think we've seen sufficient evidence that the format needs its power level to be raised, not lowered, from the dominance of the BGx shell. Jund already had something banned from it and here we are again talking about banning another card because the sum of its parts creates something stronger than most other decks in modern.
If we allow other decks to be powered up to that level, we will see a completely different format, but its still one that wouldnt be anything like the eternal formats. We'd have efficient midrange, aggro, tempo, and control strategies. We'd be missing fast combo, but I think its basically exactly what Wizards wants.
----
Edit: Of course I am under no delusion that this is likely. There will be no changes.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Second most likely is Bitterblossom since that new black removal spell hoses it
lastly Grave Troll because Deathrite and Ooze hose it
banned: nothing
unbanned: either SoTM or Bitterblossom, but not both. JTMS, AV and wild nacatl
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
Awwww.
Thinking GGT, BB, or Ancestral Vision could all easily come off.
Darn you, I wanted to drop a massive rage post on someone but you closed the thread before I could click post!!!
@thedasuri
by the time wizards gets around to unbanning fun stuff, most of us will be living in nursing homes.
--------------------------------------
even if an unban did happen don't fall for the price spike fiasco, such as what happened with legacy's land tax unbanning shot through the roof, and all of the decks that played it still sucked, making it a pure speculators folly.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
anywho, i voted:
stoneforge
artifact lands
preordain
seething song
bitterblossom
ancestral vision
and add something to the ban list
i've always been a fan of banning plating and disciple and getting artifact lands back. the rest of my choices are self explanatory.
stoneforge - not broken in the grand scheme of what you can do in this format on turns 2 and 3.
seething song - enable storm to poop on BGx decks. get some semblance of a triangle meta going.
preordain - card filtering is good
bitterblossom - because i want to play with it.
AV - it won't actually do anything. WUR control would like it, but until the deck switches to a better win con than colonnade, it'll still be average.
if newly printed hate was enough to get stuff unbanned, blossom would have come off ages ago.
After looking at the poll, I feel many will be disappointed after the announcement.
I also would like Gravetroll back, just because I think it would make the format more interesting. Dredge is a fun deck to play against; the interactions are unique and fresh compared to more typical ones.
Anyway, I voted:
Golgari-grave troll
Bitterblossom
Wild nacatl
Ancestral visions
Jace, the mind sculptor
And Dread return
Jace and dread return aren't necessarily safe unbans, but I think they need to be given a proper chance.
Unban:
Wild Nacatl
Golgari Grave Troll
Sword of the Meek
Bitterblossom
Stoneforge Mystic
Green Sun's Zenith
Ban:
Batterskull (to let SFM come off)
Wild Nacatl
Preordain
Chrome Mox
Bitterblossom
Golgari Grave-Troll
Green Sun's Zenith
Bans:
Dryad Arbor
Goryo's Vengeance
Basically, Nacatl is fine, everyone knows that. Except the DCI. Hope they learned that.
Preordain would be fine. Without Seething Song, Storm is a non-factor and pure Combo Twin is badly positioned against BGx and I doubt it's too good against UWR. Preordain would only advance fair blue decks.
GGT is a fine card, Dredge is not a real deck and there is no Dread Return. Just unban it already.
Bitterblossom is risky, but I think that the meta could handle a bunch of Faerie tokens at the moment and Fae would be an enrichment to the format.
Green Sun's Zenith is probably the riskiest card I'm suggesting, but I still think it's fine - under the condition that Dryad Arbor gets banned. What breaks GSZ is the ability to be a mana dork for 1 mana and a threat for more, being live all game and the best card in any green deck. Removing Dryad Arbor would get it back to where it should be - a tutor for random silver bullets.
Chrome Mox is fine under the condition that Goryo's Vengeance gets banned, otherwise that deck could kill you on turn 1. It can already kill people somewhat reliably on turn 2 and turn 3 is it's regular goldfish, from what I've noticed. Banning GV and bringing in Mox would enable a Thirst for Knowledge fueled Control deck, possibly featuring Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. It would speed up Twin, but I doubt they want more speed.
Ban: Nothing
Unban:
Wild Nacatl: Could help agro be a real contender.
Ponder/Preordain: I think tempo needs a boost, it's not like combo decks will be able to break the turn 4 rule with these.
Golgari Grave Troll: This does nothing without dread return, so yea, unban it.
Sword of the Meek: It's a slow combo that's easily hated, and it helps out control, which really needs it.
And I forgot to vote for it but...
Ancestral Vision: Like I said control needs a boost.
I would be interested in unbanning Bitterblossom, but I'm afraid it will slot right into g/b/x decks, so I think it needs to stay banned. Imagine straight rock decks using bitterblossom, manabase is easier than junk, jund, or ajundi, so less damage taken overall, and a steady stream of 1/1's starting turn 3 to make sure you can't ever get through, no thanks. At least sword/foundry combo has to find 2 pieces and still sink mana into it.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Golgari Grave-Troll wouldn't make the format more interesting. It wouldn't make the format more anything because without Dread Return you can't really do much with Dredge.
The real reason it should be unbanned is simple principle: It's not overpowered. In fact, it's actually quite underpowered without Dread Return.
While it should be unbanned, it being unbanned is nothing to get excited over because it would, at best, elevate one or two Tier 3 decks to Tier 2.5.
"A Plague on All Your Houses!" - Thespian's Stage Pox
Unban Sword of the Meek.
If I had noticed it was a multiple choice poll, I would have also selected
No Changes
IMO, the format is almost perfect, but control is still too weak. Only and exactly Sword would bring control up a notch and create a perfect format, for me at least.
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
Wild Nacatl
Golgari-Grave Troll
Sword of the Meek
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Seething Song
Bitterblossom
Ancestral Visions
Preordain
Bloodbraid Elf
This list I feel would up some arc types without pushing any existing decks out. It will even add new lists entirely.
What I expect:
No change. WoTC has no nuts to do the above.
Also: gogo wild nacatl! I wouldnt play you, but you deserve to be unbanned.
I heard a rumor about the banning of deathrite shaman, am i the only one scarred?
Unbaning grave troll does nothing outside of extreme circumstances and thus shouldn't be on the list.
Bitterblossom is a wish of mine, I want to play it in MBC
I would say safe unbannes are:
Wild Nactl
Bloodbraid Elf (only if the unban Jace)
Jace TMS (only if they unban BBE)
I will also say I would not be surprised if they banned Deathrite Shaman, but I dont think its needed. If they want to unban BBE Deathrite should go.
All in all Wild Nactl is easily the safest unban along with Visions
calling liberals loons=not okay
The standard to which the forum moderators apply the rules here.
Bitterblossom is a safe card to unban now... the amount of MD removal for it is absurd, and fae can only run 4 copies of scion of oona... a 1/1 dies to pyroclasm as well as the rest of the deck. Fae is not nearly as strong as it would have been in standard/extended... Abrupt Decay says hello.
Ban: People who want Deathrite Shaman banned.
I disagree, the top tier decks that play decay only play 2 tops in the 75.
The deck would be very strong with IoKs Thoughtseizes, and then all the fae. Also Pryoclasm doesnt do much with a deck full of discard spells, Spellstutter Sprites, and V Cliques.