8th Edition i'd see removed for some really lame cards: Hibernation,Ensnaring Bridge,Worship,Choke why? because they can steal away victories without requiring any skill or at least a combination of cards
Ensnaring Bridge: creatures are not that big in Modern, so in order for this card to be reliable you have to keep your hand really small, which limits your choices and means that you have to run smaller creatures than your opponent. It is a good card, but it restricts your options quite a bit. It is amazing in 8-Rack, but that is not a really common or potent deck.
Worship: As a person that has made several decks that utilize Worship, it is not as reliable as it looks. First of all it is 4 cmc, which is a lot in Modern. Second, keeping a creature in play is far from easy for most decks, and is not even easy if your creatures have hexproof.
for instance Choke is simply lame,it punishes blue players so hard for doing nothing wrong(especially in a meta with Blood Moon,where running basics is a plus)
Wait, only colors and decks that do something wrong (whatever that means) should be punished in MTG?
It could be the high-power Legacy alternative to tide people over until Modern comes into its own.
Modern would never come into it's own if there was a similar alternative because it would not get enough attention for WotC to grow the format into what it can be.
Onslaught as a starting point would have been pretty safe, though adding another set of expensive lands needed to play was probably a big deterrent when starting the format.
Oh, if only onslaught was in Modern…
Some cards that I would love to be able to play:
Fetches. I don'y like being forced to splash red in UW control, just because the mana doesn't get any worse… You have to run scaling tarn anyways in a pure UW deck. Riptide labaratory. Faeries, Delver, some new kind of wizards based deck… Spellstutter and Snapcaster are very fun creatures aren't they? Stifle Would also be a card that would help little blue buggers. Teaches players to play around it, punishes nonbasics… Pure fun this card Goblin Sharpshooter. Who doesn't like shooting down hordes of creatures? Not competitive probably, but maybe together with… Goblin Piledriver. Our green-skinned fella's, probably the best tribe (although Merfolk might have taken that title with recent additions to the main board), and not represented in the format at all besides a deck people play 'cause it only costs 10 bucks… Elvish Vanguard. Talking about tribal, it's not impossible that this card might boost elves to some extend, together with Wirewood symbiote,Timberwatch elf and Wellwisher. Bolt is a *****, but together I see this card being quite good. Symbiote doesn't have to prove itself of course, now only if glimpse was brought back… Future Sight. I would really like to try this in my control deck, double blue enabled by flooded strands… Finisher potential is huge, dodges abrupt decay, and helps you dig to the counter spell to protect it.
finally, all storm cards. Tendrils is kinda lame without Cabal- and dark ritual, but maybe brain freeze is viable?
Cabal Ritual was in Overextended. But in addition to the cards that you mentioned, we would also have
I mean - I get why Verhey shut down his website. Overextended specifically wasn't his goal, but rather an Extended alternative in general. But people liked Overextended. I didn't play it but it was really interesting. There were all kinds of archetypes - including a really cool Chain of Plasma/Swans of Brynn Argol/Pariah/Stuffy Doll deck.
But why not keep playing Overextended? There's precedent: EDH came to fruition solely through grassroots support and self-moderation.
It could be the high-power Legacy alternative to tide people over until Modern comes into its own.
I'd try to bring the format back myself if I didn't think I'd fail.
This is a good point. Someone should try to do this. Speaking of which, how would this ban list be (assuming that the format has something similar to Modern's turn 4 rule), considering that the proposed Overextended ban list seemed way too small
I initially voted Overextended, but, after thinking about it, I change my mind.
To give context: I played in Gavin's overextended tournaments (top 8ing the first tournament with my legacy affinity deck was possibly the most fun I've had playing magic). I don't think you can draw any parallels between those tournaments and what overextended would be as an actual format. While there was a lot of brewing and testing, there were no incentives to pick up expensive cards like Bob and Goyf if you weren't going to use them in legacy as well. As a result, the field was full of interesting budget brews and new takes on old standard/extended decks. Deck choice was dictated by 1) cards already in possession 2) nostalgia 3) fun. The only real metagaming was that everyone was packing serious hate for affinity and elves (the latter was eventually hit by a glimpse ban).
I think that a real overextended meta game would be far different than the brewer's paradise that we remember with rose-tinted glasses. While their would be some great additions (tribal, fetches, FoF), I think that bans would be in order for storm, entomb, dredge, (possibly deed as it gives BGx a really strong tool vs. aggro), and some of the wishes. I have very much enjoyed modern and believe that people don't put enough effort into innovation. I think that the modern card frame cut off makes a ton of sense in an FNM setting for newer players (members of this forum are far more educated about block order/history). I think that modern has a lot of potential without adding cards from older blocks, and I think that the main problems with the format relate to some of the cards which have been banned.
TL;DR: Overextended would be a far different format than Gavin's tournaments once it became competitive. Many cards would be degenerate and need banning. I think Modern is fine except for certain cards being banned.
I initially voted Overextended, but, after thinking about it, I change my mind.
To give context: I played in Gavin's overextended tournaments (top 8ing the first tournament with my legacy affinity deck was possibly the most fun I've had playing magic). I don't think you can draw any parallels between those tournaments and what overextended would be as an actual format. While there was a lot of brewing and testing, there were no incentives to pick up expensive cards like Bob and Goyf if you weren't going to use them in legacy as well. As a result, the field was full of interesting budget brews and new takes on old standard/extended decks. Deck choice was dictated by 1) cards already in possession 2) nostalgia 3) fun. The only real metagaming was that everyone was packing serious hate for affinity and elves (the latter was eventually hit by a glimpse ban).
I think that a real overextended meta game would be far different than the brewer's paradise that we remember with rose-tinted glasses. While their would be some great additions (tribal, fetches, FoF), I think that bans would be in order for storm, entomb, dredge, (possibly deed as it gives BGx a really strong tool vs. aggro), and some of the wishes. I have very much enjoyed modern and believe that people don't put enough effort into innovation. I think that the modern card frame cut off makes a ton of sense in an FNM setting for newer players (members of this forum are far more educated about block order/history). I think that modern has a lot of potential without adding cards from older blocks, and I think that the main problems with the format relate to some of the cards which have been banned.
TL;DR: Overextended would be a far different format than Gavin's tournaments once it became competitive. Many cards would be degenerate and need banning. I think Modern is fine except for certain cards being banned.
I only count 4 from that era that would need to be banned (Entomb, Ichorid, Tendrils of Agony, Mind's Desire). As for the card frame cuttoff being easier for newer players, it only takes a few seconds of a new player's time to search "Modern", find the legal sets, and see if their card is legal. Besides, then we would have tons of new players trying to play their Duel Deck/Commander/Planechase/Archenemy/Premium Deck cards. And I agree, Modern is fine except for the ban list. However, Overextended could have a different ban list and there would be a lot of new decks and good cards in the format. Grixis and Esper Control would be viable. Astral Slide, Madness, Goblins, and Elves would be competitive. Merfolk would be Tier 1. Dredge would be playable (most of the cards in there wouldn't be broken enough to ban). Prison decks like Scepter-Chant and Prison Loam could be played. RUG Delver would be viable with Nimble Mongoose. Control would have access to good counterspells. And the only downside would be a few bans. It seems like it would be a more balanced format.
Its not about what you feel should be banned, its what Wotc would feel needs to be banned to have a healthy format.
Okay then, what do you think would have to be banned that is not on my list (ignoring the fact that Wizards irrationally hates dredge and wouldn't want it to be playable at all)?
Adding: Blazing Shoal - It was legal but unplayed in OE, but I'd reckon that was only because no-one knew the deck existed. Nevertheless, I'm startled when I realize that this deck has zero-cost answers to spells (Disrupting Shoal, Pact of Negation) AND creatures (Snapback). What's more, Muddle the Mixture tutors both of these, plus the wincon to boot. Yeah...let's keep this one away. Dark Depths - not with Thespian's Stage around. Dread Return - the key card in Dredge. Without this 0-cost sac outlet, Bridge and Narcomoeba are useless. Glimpse of Nature - this was on the watchlist before OE ended. Given that Elves has gained Craterhoof Behemoth and Beck since then, I wouldn't mind if it was banned. Mental Misstep - obvious. Past in Flames - this is probably the most powerful card in Storm, regardless of build. It buffers against discard and effectively acts as a Praetor's Counsel when it resolves. Second Sunrise - I love this deck and I know Gavin Verhey did as well, but oh well. OE didn't have any problems with Sunrise because 1) Faith's Reward hadn't been released and 2) it was MTGO-only, so if the Eggs player played slow they'd lose to timeout.
OE had a much higher power level than Modern, not just because of the larger card pool, but also because there were fewer cards on the banlist. Thus, I'm OK with keeping some of the "too good for Modern" cards such as BB, Cloudpost, Jace, SFM.
Adding: Blazing Shoal - It was legal but unplayed in OE, but I'd reckon that was only because no-one knew the deck existed. Nevertheless, I'm startled when I realize that this deck has zero-cost answers to spells (Disrupting Shoal, Pact of Negation) AND creatures (Snapback). What's more, Muddle the Mixture tutors both of these, plus the wincon to boot. Yeah...let's keep this one away. Dark Depths - not with Thespian's Stage around. Dread Return - the key card in Dredge. Without this 0-cost sac outlet, Bridge and Narcomoeba are useless. Glimpse of Nature - this was on the watchlist before OE ended. Given that Elves has gained Craterhoof Behemoth and Beck since then, I wouldn't mind if it was banned. Mental Misstep - obvious. Past in Flames - this is probably the most powerful card in Storm, regardless of build. It buffers against discard and effectively acts as a Praetor's Counsel when it resolves. Second Sunrise - I love this deck and I know Gavin Verhey did as well, but oh well. OE didn't have any problems with Sunrise because 1) Faith's Reward hadn't been released and 2) it was MTGO-only, so if the Eggs player played slow they'd lose to timeout.
OE had a much higher power level than Modern, not just because of the larger card pool, but also because there were fewer cards on the banlist. Thus, I'm OK with keeping some of the "too good for Modern" cards such as BB, Cloudpost, Jace, SFM.
I wouldn't put Sword of the Meek on there, without Dark Depths I doubt that it would be dominant.
Rite of Flame needs to be on there. Storm and Manamorphose-Ascension won consistently on turn 2-3 before it was banned without Past in Flames.
Pyrite Spellbomb should be on there instead of Second Sunrise, no other win condition would be as slow as it, and Eggs would still be able to function as a deck.
I would also add Ichorid, Dredge seems like it would be too powerful with it even without Dread Return. Alternatively, Bridge From Below could be added instead.
Cloudpost might be too powerful as well, considering that right now it can be 16-Post thanks to Thespian's Stage. I could be wrong though.
Punishing Fire also is too warping, it would hurt most aggro and tempo strategies enough that it shouldn't be allowed in the format.
However, if you were not going to keep thee turn 4 rule, your list work (though I would prefer Second Sunrise and Sword of the Meek to be unbanned in any case).
Cloudpost might be too powerful as well, considering that right now it can be 16-Post thanks to Thespian's Stage. I could be wrong though.
16-Post would almost certainly be a nonentity. Thespian's Stage is inefficient in the deck and requires you take out lands that produce Green-colored mana, which is rather important to have when you're playing Primeval Titan. Since the deck by default runs 13 lands that can't produce colored mana (the post lands and Eye of Ugin), it's very important you have sufficient Green mana sources, especially due to the double G in Primeval Titan.
Now, that's not particularly relevant to the question of whether regular ol' 12-Post would be too powerful, but I don't think 16-Post is a concern.
16-Post would almost certainly be a nonentity. Thespian's Stage is inefficient in the deck and requires you take out lands that produce Green-colored mana, which is rather important to have when you're playing Primeval Titan. Since the deck by default runs 13 lands that can't produce colored mana (the post lands and Eye of Ugin), it's very important you have sufficient Green mana sources, especially due to the double G in Primeval Titan.
Now, that's not particularly relevant to the question of whether regular ol' 12-Post would be too powerful, but I don't think 16-Post is a concern.
Fair enough.
On another note, I did some Storm testing and it goldfished on turn 3. However, stronger counterspells might be enough to keep it in check. If not, Past in Flames would have to be added to my hypothetical banned list.
Also, though Goblins looks like it could be competitive, I am not sure whether it would be Tier 1 in Overextended without Goblin Lackey.
After some more testing, Dredge looks like it wouldn't need an Ichorid ban, Dread Return being banned keeps it as a turn 4 deck. Someone really should start doing unsanctioned tournaments for Overextended.
One thing Modern has done is make it even bigger news if they ever reprint sweet cards from Overextended in a new set. The next time Flashback comes around for instance, we may get Cabal Therapy.
They may decide it is time to bring Counterspell back a few years from now, even Daze. These things seem unlikely, but you never know when they might design a format where those cards can be balanced.
I heard about this a long time ago, and hell, after reading the thread, it seems like most people who like a varied meta-game are all for it. I would prefer the Masques and Up but ... Invasion and up would be just as fine and after a few bannings, it would be Legacy-lite.
But as someone previously mentioned, thats not what modern is .... I assumed it was and after research I started playing Eggs, that got banned and ... well, not much else to say. I honestly did expect Legacy-lite, overextended would be a LOT more fun and a lot more creative than what modern is now; it would actually reward creative deck-building rather than playing the same 52x cards from Jund and changing the sideboard and calling it original.
Overextended would be like banning force of will and dual lands from Legacy, and that's about it. Modern is clearly defined as it is with its own set of problems, and its own set of triumphs. I am glad that extended is different than Legacy in its defining cards.
I think they thought they knew better than they actually did.
I am a fan of modern, but at the same time, I am probably going to be a fan of anything in the spectrum we're talking about, all the way from Masques-Forward, to Modern with a banlist twice as long as it is now.
I think the big miss was that they didn't use MTGO to do more research to see what people were hungry for. They can run as many different types of queues as they have ideas for. Run them for six months or a year and then see what the winners are.
They may have felt rushed by PT Philadelphia looming with CawBlade threatening to go wild. But how many tournaments had already been smashed by CawBlade, would one more really be the end of the world? Someone very well may have found some tech that could hold it down, but we'll never know. Or they could have just banned a card to make it less of an issue. The time table they were on, whatever they did was going to make some people upset for the event, so I don't know that going the new format route was so much better PR than the just banning something route.
I don't think there is anything particularly superior about overextended. I think it would have had just as many (if different) growing pangs as Modern has. The resultant format could be better or worse than current modern, there really is no way to know. Maybe it stabilizes very quickly, or maybe we end up needing twice as many bans to even get to the level that Modern is currently at.
I would have liked for them to have given several possible permutations a shot on MTGO, and we could have learned what was the best format to move forward with by experience instead of by gut.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
How about a format where every card not on the Reserved List is legal, barring a few common-sense bans (like Necropotence)
I feel like this would just look like Legacy with shocklands, though.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Overextended would be like banning force of will and dual lands from Legacy, and that's about it. Modern is clearly defined as it is with its own set of problems, and its own set of triumphs. I am glad that extended is different than Legacy in its defining cards.
False. Look at Legacy. Now look at Overextended. While it would be a Legacy-lite format, it wouldn't be nearly as broken, especially with some bans. Think Elves without Glimpse of Nature or Gaea's Cradle, Dredge without Dread Return or Lion's Eye Diamond, Delver without True-Name Nemesis, Wasteland, Force of Will, Brainstorm, or Daze, and Storm without Tendrils of Agony, Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, or Rite of Flame. It would have powerful Legacy decks in it, but they could easily be restrained to fit within a turn 4 rule like Modern has. It seems like it would have all of the good aspects of Legacy, but stop right before the end of the broken era.
I am a fan of modern, but at the same time, I am probably going to be a fan of anything in the spectrum we're talking about, all the way from Masques-Forward, to Modern with a banlist twice as long as it is now.
Nitpicking, but I was talking Invasion-forward Overextended, not Masques-forward. Masques-forward would have too many Legacy cards in it.
How about a format where every card not on the Reserved List is legal, barring a few common-sense bans (like Necropotence)
I feel like this would just look like Legacy with shocklands, though.
I couldn't touch this format. Legacy would still be extremely expensive and I could still not afford the deck that I want to build for it (MUD). I also dislike Legacy's extremely high power-level. What I wish there was is a format with a higher power-level than Modern but lower than Legacy's, and Overextended would fit perfectly.
On another note, after some more testing, here is what my hypothetical banned list would be.
We hashed out some stuff in the old Overextended forum before the birth of Modern and we were just getting to the point where the brewers had quit testing existing decks and were starting to take it and run.
While I still lobbied for the IPA-7 format we did have one particularly interesting Rebel deck that would only be more powerful today than it was then, esp with the new legend rule.
Going back to masques really does require a stronger ban list and it feels much like legacy w/out wasteland (although having port in the format was decent).
Goblins and Vial Goblins were strong but considerably weaker w/out Lackey.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
We hashed out some stuff in the old Overextended forum before the birth of Modern and we were just getting to the point where the brewers had quit testing existing decks and were starting to take it and run.
While I still lobbied for the IPA-7 format we did have one particularly interesting Rebel deck that would only be more powerful today than it was then, esp with the new legend rule.
Going back to masques really does require a stronger ban list and it feels much like legacy w/out wasteland (although having port in the format was decent).
Goblins and Vial Goblins were strong but considerably weaker w/out Lackey.
I've gotten the same results for Goblins so far. The lack of Wasteland and Port also hurts them.
Banning Past in Flames finally was able to get the Storm deck down to a turn 4 kill, I will continue testing it, Dredge, and Goblins and also start on 12-Post and Merfolk.
I think Wotc should support Overextended on Magic Online. I mean they are going to support the dumbest and unfun format in Magic's History: Vintage. A format where CONTROL decks can kill you T1, and where you can play the most busted card in history: Yawgmoths Will.
Well, first off, that's a rather inaccurate description of Vintage. And second, no, you can't play the most busted card in history in Vintage, because Contract from Below is banned.
After some more testing, I think that Vesuva could come off of my imaginary banned list. 12-Post is actually staying relatively fair.
Fair by whos standard? The reason 12 post was found to be bad was it pushed other decks out of the format because of so much mana so quickly. 8 post decks were fine, but 12 post decks were far from 'fair' by many peoples standard.
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I would have preferred overextended.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Ensnaring Bridge: creatures are not that big in Modern, so in order for this card to be reliable you have to keep your hand really small, which limits your choices and means that you have to run smaller creatures than your opponent. It is a good card, but it restricts your options quite a bit. It is amazing in 8-Rack, but that is not a really common or potent deck.
Worship: As a person that has made several decks that utilize Worship, it is not as reliable as it looks. First of all it is 4 cmc, which is a lot in Modern. Second, keeping a creature in play is far from easy for most decks, and is not even easy if your creatures have hexproof.
Wait, only colors and decks that do something wrong (whatever that means) should be punished in MTG?
Modern would never come into it's own if there was a similar alternative because it would not get enough attention for WotC to grow the format into what it can be.
Onslaught as a starting point would have been pretty safe, though adding another set of expensive lands needed to play was probably a big deterrent when starting the format.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Cabal Ritual was in Overextended. But in addition to the cards that you mentioned, we would also have
Absorb and Undermine: Playable 3 mana counterspells.
Armadillo Cloak: Would replace Unflinching Courage in Bogles.
Artifact Mutation and Aura Mutation: Powerful Artifact/Enchantment removal.
Aura Shards: Strong sideboard card against Affinity and Bogles
Bind: Could see sideboard play
Breaking Wave: Seems like a powerful effect
Breath of Darigaaz: Burn sideboard?
Coalition Flage: Enchanted creature is a Spellskite
Crosis's Charm: Grixis Control would love this. It is removal, maindeckable artifact-destruction, and bounce all in one card at instant speed.
Diabolic Intent: Strong tutor, something that Modern really doesn't have
Disrupt: Probably would be playable in Delver.
Do or Die: For 2 mana, it wipes half of the opponents board. Seems playable to me.
Dromar's Charm: EsperControl would love this. Lifegain or a counterspell or removal all in one card is strong.
Dueling Grounds: I bet a Bant exalted deck might become playable with this.
Elfhame Sanctuary: Nothing currently powerful would use this, but the Belcher deck in Deck Creation would use this.
Enslistment Officer: With the cards from Onslaught, soldier tribal might become a thing.
Exclude: It is a counterspell that cantrips, control decks would use this.
Fact or Fiction: Would replace Sphinx's Revelation in control decks.
Fire // Ice: Could be playable.
Fires of Yavimaya: This might finally be a playable Fervor effect.
Flametounge Kavu: Removal attached to a beater.
Gerrard's Verdict: 8-Rack already sometimes splash white for Ghostly Prison and Lingering Souls, this would replace Wrench Mind
Goblin Ringleader: Modern Goblins would be tier 1 with this and the Onslaught cards.
Meteor Crater: Maybe playable
Pernicious Deed: BGx decks would use this
Rith's Charm: Another charm with very powerful effects
Sterling Grove: Playable Enchantress
Tangle: This on an Isochron Scepter is evil.
Vindicate: Junk would replace Maelstrom Pulse with this.
Barbarian Ring: Burn would use this.
Braids, Cabal Minion: Stax?
Buried Alive: Would add more consistency to Griselbrand Reanimator.
Cephalid Colosseum: Dredge
Deserted Temple: Might be playable in Tron?
Druid's Call: This on a Goyf=Awesome.
Entomb: This would be banned for sure.
Innocent Blood: Modern has been needing some more powerful black removal, Tokens and black control/noncreature combo decks would use this.
Moment's Peace: Turbofog
Nimble Mongoose: RUG Delver would be playable again.
Patron Wizards: This with Voidmage Progidy in a Mono-U Wizards deck.
Psychatog: No explanation needed for this one.
Standstill: Merfolk would use this for sure.
Upheaval: Great with Psychatog, might be too slow though.
Wild Mongrel: RUG Madness would be competitive
Arrogant Wurm: Reckless Wurm 5-8.
Basking Rootwalla: RUG Madness
Breakthrough: Dredge would definitely be Tier 1, bans would be needed.
Cabal Ritual: Great in Storm.
Circular Logic: Madness
Ichorid: Dredge at Tier 1.
Putrid Imp: See Ichorid
Sickening Dreams: Not sure where this would be playable, but it could be
Anger: Madness and Dredge (who doesn't love an army of 2/2 zombies with haste?)
Breaking Point: Burn
Burning Wish: Storm and Scapeshift would become extremely consistent.
Cabal Therapy: Dredge again.
Cunning Wish: Combo decks love cheap wishes
Envelop: Could see sideboard play.
Hunting Grounds: I could see this being a playable deck.
Living Wish: Tron, Pod, Twin, and several other decks could use this.
Mental Note: Extra Thought Scours?
Nantuko Monastery: Better than Stirring Wildwood?
Riftstone Portal: Provides great mana-fixing
Solitary Confinement: Prison Loam with the Cycling Lands, Life from the Loam, and Seismic Assault.
Wonder: Madness
Akroma's Vengeance: Astral Slide
Astral Slide and Lightning Rift: Astral Slide would be a competitive deck.
Secluded Steppe, Lonely Sandbar, Barren Moor, Forgotten Cave, Tranquil Thciket: Prison Loam
Brightstone Ritual: Goblin deck of some sort?
Catapult Master: Soldiers?
Chain of Plasma: The aforementioned Swans of Bryn Argol deck.
Chain of Vapor: Cheap bounce
Elvish Guidance: Elvish Archdruid on a land.
Enchantress's Presence: Enchantress
Goblin Pyromancer: Goblins?
Patriarch's Bidding: Goblin Bidding
Slice and Dice: Astral Slide
Unholy Grotto: Zombies
Words of War: Enchantress
Caller of the Claw: Sweeper protection
Clickslither:Goblin Bidding
Plated Sliver, Crypt Sliver, Quick Sliver: Slivers
Carrion Feeder: Would replace Viscera Seer in Melira Pod.
Daru Warchief: Soldiers
Eternal Dragon: Astral Slide
Mind's Desire: Would be banned immediately
Sparkstorm: Astral Slide
Spark Spray: Astral Slide
Sulfuric Vortex: Burn
Tendrils of Agony: Probably would be banned
Wing Shards: Seems playable
Counterspell: Every control deck would play this.
Engineered Plague: Great sideboard card
Force Spike: Tempo decks would play this
Goblin Matron: Tier 1 Goblins.
Greed: Mono-Black Control
Mana Breach, Mana Short, Meekstone, and Opposition: Prison decks would work in Modern.
Memory Lapse: Lock with Isochron Scepter, would replace Remand in all decks.
Tolarian Winds: Storm and Dredge would use this.
Verduan Enchantress:Enchantress
Just looking at this, several decks would become playable, so I would support Overextended.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This is a good point. Someone should try to do this. Speaking of which, how would this ban list be (assuming that the format has something similar to Modern's turn 4 rule), considering that the proposed Overextended ban list seemed way too small
Blazing Shoal
Chrome Mox
Cranial Plating
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Deathrite Shaman
Disciple of the Vault
Dread Return
Entomb
Glimpse of Nature
Goblin Electromancer
Hypergenesis
Ichorid
Mental Misstep
Mind's Desire
Punishing Fire
Pyrite Spellbomb
Rite of Flame
Sensei's Divining Top
Skullclamp
Tendrils of Agony
Umezawa's Jitte
I probably screwed up horribly with this ban list, but what does everyone think?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
To give context: I played in Gavin's overextended tournaments (top 8ing the first tournament with my legacy affinity deck was possibly the most fun I've had playing magic). I don't think you can draw any parallels between those tournaments and what overextended would be as an actual format. While there was a lot of brewing and testing, there were no incentives to pick up expensive cards like Bob and Goyf if you weren't going to use them in legacy as well. As a result, the field was full of interesting budget brews and new takes on old standard/extended decks. Deck choice was dictated by 1) cards already in possession 2) nostalgia 3) fun. The only real metagaming was that everyone was packing serious hate for affinity and elves (the latter was eventually hit by a glimpse ban).
I think that a real overextended meta game would be far different than the brewer's paradise that we remember with rose-tinted glasses. While their would be some great additions (tribal, fetches, FoF), I think that bans would be in order for storm, entomb, dredge, (possibly deed as it gives BGx a really strong tool vs. aggro), and some of the wishes. I have very much enjoyed modern and believe that people don't put enough effort into innovation. I think that the modern card frame cut off makes a ton of sense in an FNM setting for newer players (members of this forum are far more educated about block order/history). I think that modern has a lot of potential without adding cards from older blocks, and I think that the main problems with the format relate to some of the cards which have been banned.
TL;DR: Overextended would be a far different format than Gavin's tournaments once it became competitive. Many cards would be degenerate and need banning. I think Modern is fine except for certain cards being banned.
I only count 4 from that era that would need to be banned (Entomb, Ichorid, Tendrils of Agony, Mind's Desire). As for the card frame cuttoff being easier for newer players, it only takes a few seconds of a new player's time to search "Modern", find the legal sets, and see if their card is legal. Besides, then we would have tons of new players trying to play their Duel Deck/Commander/Planechase/Archenemy/Premium Deck cards. And I agree, Modern is fine except for the ban list. However, Overextended could have a different ban list and there would be a lot of new decks and good cards in the format. Grixis and Esper Control would be viable. Astral Slide, Madness, Goblins, and Elves would be competitive. Merfolk would be Tier 1. Dredge would be playable (most of the cards in there wouldn't be broken enough to ban). Prison decks like Scepter-Chant and Prison Loam could be played. RUG Delver would be viable with Nimble Mongoose. Control would have access to good counterspells. And the only downside would be a few bans. It seems like it would be a more balanced format.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Okay then, what do you think would have to be banned that is not on my list (ignoring the fact that Wizards irrationally hates dredge and wouldn't want it to be playable at all)?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Adding:
Blazing Shoal - It was legal but unplayed in OE, but I'd reckon that was only because no-one knew the deck existed. Nevertheless, I'm startled when I realize that this deck has zero-cost answers to spells (Disrupting Shoal, Pact of Negation) AND creatures (Snapback). What's more, Muddle the Mixture tutors both of these, plus the wincon to boot. Yeah...let's keep this one away.
Dark Depths - not with Thespian's Stage around.
Dread Return - the key card in Dredge. Without this 0-cost sac outlet, Bridge and Narcomoeba are useless.
Glimpse of Nature - this was on the watchlist before OE ended. Given that Elves has gained Craterhoof Behemoth and Beck since then, I wouldn't mind if it was banned.
Mental Misstep - obvious.
Past in Flames - this is probably the most powerful card in Storm, regardless of build. It buffers against discard and effectively acts as a Praetor's Counsel when it resolves.
Second Sunrise - I love this deck and I know Gavin Verhey did as well, but oh well. OE didn't have any problems with Sunrise because 1) Faith's Reward hadn't been released and 2) it was MTGO-only, so if the Eggs player played slow they'd lose to timeout.
OE had a much higher power level than Modern, not just because of the larger card pool, but also because there were fewer cards on the banlist. Thus, I'm OK with keeping some of the "too good for Modern" cards such as BB, Cloudpost, Jace, SFM.
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Big Johnny.
I wouldn't put Sword of the Meek on there, without Dark Depths I doubt that it would be dominant.
Rite of Flame needs to be on there. Storm and Manamorphose-Ascension won consistently on turn 2-3 before it was banned without Past in Flames.
Pyrite Spellbomb should be on there instead of Second Sunrise, no other win condition would be as slow as it, and Eggs would still be able to function as a deck.
I would also add Ichorid, Dredge seems like it would be too powerful with it even without Dread Return. Alternatively, Bridge From Below could be added instead.
Cloudpost might be too powerful as well, considering that right now it can be 16-Post thanks to Thespian's Stage. I could be wrong though.
Punishing Fire also is too warping, it would hurt most aggro and tempo strategies enough that it shouldn't be allowed in the format.
Chrome Mox also allows easy turn 3 wins.
However, if you were not going to keep thee turn 4 rule, your list work (though I would prefer Second Sunrise and Sword of the Meek to be unbanned in any case).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
16-Post would almost certainly be a nonentity. Thespian's Stage is inefficient in the deck and requires you take out lands that produce Green-colored mana, which is rather important to have when you're playing Primeval Titan. Since the deck by default runs 13 lands that can't produce colored mana (the post lands and Eye of Ugin), it's very important you have sufficient Green mana sources, especially due to the double G in Primeval Titan.
Now, that's not particularly relevant to the question of whether regular ol' 12-Post would be too powerful, but I don't think 16-Post is a concern.
Fair enough.
On another note, I did some Storm testing and it goldfished on turn 3. However, stronger counterspells might be enough to keep it in check. If not, Past in Flames would have to be added to my hypothetical banned list.
Also, though Goblins looks like it could be competitive, I am not sure whether it would be Tier 1 in Overextended without Goblin Lackey.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
They may decide it is time to bring Counterspell back a few years from now, even Daze. These things seem unlikely, but you never know when they might design a format where those cards can be balanced.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
But as someone previously mentioned, thats not what modern is .... I assumed it was and after research I started playing Eggs, that got banned and ... well, not much else to say. I honestly did expect Legacy-lite, overextended would be a LOT more fun and a lot more creative than what modern is now; it would actually reward creative deck-building rather than playing the same 52x cards from Jund and changing the sideboard and calling it original.
I am a fan of modern, but at the same time, I am probably going to be a fan of anything in the spectrum we're talking about, all the way from Masques-Forward, to Modern with a banlist twice as long as it is now.
I think the big miss was that they didn't use MTGO to do more research to see what people were hungry for. They can run as many different types of queues as they have ideas for. Run them for six months or a year and then see what the winners are.
They may have felt rushed by PT Philadelphia looming with CawBlade threatening to go wild. But how many tournaments had already been smashed by CawBlade, would one more really be the end of the world? Someone very well may have found some tech that could hold it down, but we'll never know. Or they could have just banned a card to make it less of an issue. The time table they were on, whatever they did was going to make some people upset for the event, so I don't know that going the new format route was so much better PR than the just banning something route.
I don't think there is anything particularly superior about overextended. I think it would have had just as many (if different) growing pangs as Modern has. The resultant format could be better or worse than current modern, there really is no way to know. Maybe it stabilizes very quickly, or maybe we end up needing twice as many bans to even get to the level that Modern is currently at.
I would have liked for them to have given several possible permutations a shot on MTGO, and we could have learned what was the best format to move forward with by experience instead of by gut.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I feel like this would just look like Legacy with shocklands, though.
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False. Look at Legacy. Now look at Overextended. While it would be a Legacy-lite format, it wouldn't be nearly as broken, especially with some bans. Think Elves without Glimpse of Nature or Gaea's Cradle, Dredge without Dread Return or Lion's Eye Diamond, Delver without True-Name Nemesis, Wasteland, Force of Will, Brainstorm, or Daze, and Storm without Tendrils of Agony, Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, or Rite of Flame. It would have powerful Legacy decks in it, but they could easily be restrained to fit within a turn 4 rule like Modern has. It seems like it would have all of the good aspects of Legacy, but stop right before the end of the broken era.
Nitpicking, but I was talking Invasion-forward Overextended, not Masques-forward. Masques-forward would have too many Legacy cards in it.
I couldn't touch this format. Legacy would still be extremely expensive and I could still not afford the deck that I want to build for it (MUD). I also dislike Legacy's extremely high power-level. What I wish there was is a format with a higher power-level than Modern but lower than Legacy's, and Overextended would fit perfectly.
On another note, after some more testing, here is what my hypothetical banned list would be.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
While I still lobbied for the IPA-7 format we did have one particularly interesting Rebel deck that would only be more powerful today than it was then, esp with the new legend rule.
Going back to masques really does require a stronger ban list and it feels much like legacy w/out wasteland (although having port in the format was decent).
Goblins and Vial Goblins were strong but considerably weaker w/out Lackey.
I've gotten the same results for Goblins so far. The lack of Wasteland and Port also hurts them.
Banning Past in Flames finally was able to get the Storm deck down to a turn 4 kill, I will continue testing it, Dredge, and Goblins and also start on 12-Post and Merfolk.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Fair by whos standard? The reason 12 post was found to be bad was it pushed other decks out of the format because of so much mana so quickly. 8 post decks were fine, but 12 post decks were far from 'fair' by many peoples standard.