the ones who say URW and geist will be better in this metagame never player urw and geist.
a double token block on geist and he's gone, and zoo is too fast for the deck especially if they play blood moon mb
True, Traft won't be good in removal-light shells because of the blocker problem, but I've found that Traft backed up by Geist of Saint Win's burn can consistently cut through Bitterblossom (without anthems). They double block, a token gets Bolted. They triple block, two tokens get Electrolyzed half the time.
...Give Bitterblossom an anthem or Scion of Oona, though, and Traft is screwed.
from my own testing UB fae is pretty bad against tron... the version I tested against used no snappy, full sets of spellstutter, 4 vendilion and 3 mistbind on top of full set of BB.
the ones who say URW and geist will be better in this metagame never player urw and geist.
a double token block on geist and he's gone, and zoo is too fast for the deck especially if they play blood moon mb
You begin your two sentences long post with an attack and you end it discussing the possibility of a 3 color deck that cares about the presence of plains and forests play Blood Moon in the main board.
I honestly think it's way too early to know how this will turn out. However we can conclude that people trying to make Bitterblossom or Wild Nacatl work won't be hard to find. Tier 1 or not, other decks should be ready to face these cards. This is going to be pretty interesting when UB Fae plays against Zoo... hehe
UWR are colors that happen to have several cards that answer these 2 new threats.
Electrolyze is not great against 3 toughness aggro decks but it can be the 3rd point of damage when blocking with a snapcaster. The card also cantrips which helps you find one of the many cards such as Path, Bolt, Verdict or Helix that are meant to deal with aggro. Yes it's super slow at 3 mana... but it's not a dead card. Meanwhile, it's pretty good at killing Scion, Clique, Spellstutter, Snapcaster and tokens. Fae plays counters yes.. but UWR is built with almost exclusively instants so it can easily interact with other blue decks.
Turn 1 DRS, Turn 2 Lili. This is what you don't want to see when you have a Spell Snare instead of a bolt in your hand. While Spell Snare is still awful against Zoo, it just got better against Jund which will rely much more on their turn 2 Ooze/Bitterblossom/Confidant. Spell Snare is also going to help against Fae, stopping SSS, Remand, Bitterblossom, Snapcaster. It's actually one of the only way to efficiently deal with a turn 2 Bitterblossom... I think I want to play Fae just for that kind of interaction in the mirror.
Playing 3 colors like UWR does is also a pretty good way to support a card like Engineered Explosives. That card is insane against tokens but can also deal with Bitterblossom itself while bypassing Scion's shroud. It's also not so bad against aggro being a sweeper for 3 or 4 mana total.
About Geist, for him to be blocked by 2 tokens, the Bitterblossom was dropped on turn 2 and we're on turn 4. UWR plays removal and with a Geist on board, you're playing tempo for the win. It is true that Geist has trouble attacking against creatures, but that's nothing new, Lingering Souls has been here for a while now and in the context of attacking with Geist on turn 4, Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom aren't so different.
Keep in mind Geist comes with 56+15 other cards, some of them are meant to kill creatures.
I guess my point is it is way too soon know if UWR is better or worse and all we can do is speculate. However, UWR is a reactive deck so as long as there are blue/white/red cards that are good against the meta, UWR will have a shot at drawing these cards in the right order. Aside from when the midrange/tempo version tries to close the game quickly with Geist, the deck plays more like a control deck that is winning as long as it is not losing.
Controlmagic, I agree that UWR is always going to have the ability to metagame proper answers against any given deck, but there's an unavoidable fact that you are ignoring - Two new archetypes have just entered the scene, and neither of which looks like it's supplanting any other decks within their archetype. This means a greater likelihood of facing cards that require unique answers, which is never a good thing for a reactive deck. Yes, Jund got a little easier, but Zoo is outstanding when it comes to punishing UWR for running cards like electrolyze and spell snare. Not knowing you are holding an effective mulligan to 5 because you kept revelation + electrolyze is a bad spot to be in.
At the minimum, I feel like UWR is just going to be forced into maindecking towards likely (and overlapping) archetypes, and simply accepting the fact that it's going to be an uphill fight game 1 against a few decks.
Wait, what? Of all the decks that are currently tier 1, I feel like America midrange is going to have to change the LEAST from these changes...
The deck commonly runs 10 damage spells and 4 unconditional removal in PtE...that just destroys zoo in my mind even if you don't counter anything. Against the fae, we have spell snare which counters bitterblossom, spellstutter sprite, mana leak, and remand and America races far quicker if you geist turn 3...not to mention all the counters we have if they don't get board presence...
I mean, electrolyze just can blow out faeries as well, and elspeth prevents the whole double block deal when geist becomes a 5/5...on top of that, if things got really crazy, a resolved Rootborn Defenses against a token double block would be an absolute blowout...
Wait, what? Of all the decks that are currently tier 1, I feel like America midrange is going to have to change the LEAST from these changes...
The deck commonly runs 10 damage spells and 4 unconditional removal in PtE...that just destroys zoo in my mind even if you don't counter anything. Against the fae, we have spell snare which counters bitterblossom, spellstutter sprite, mana leak, and remand and America races far quicker if you geist turn 3...not to mention all the counters we have if they don't get board presence...
I mean, electrolyze just can blow out faeries as well, and elspeth prevents the whole double block deal when geist becomes a 5/5...on top of that, if things got really crazy, a resolved Rootborn Defenses against a token double block would be an absolute blowout...
He was talking about WUR Control. I think that WUR Midrange will have to undergo some changes too though because Zoo is really bad for it.
I guess if they counter electrolyze that is a thing, but there is always spell snare again in that case. Also, the zoo matchup is not bad at all for UWR midrange, I have no idea where people are getting that from, from playtesting it is about 60/40 UWR...
Also, wear // tear in the side for UWR just owns faeries big time...
It is a good matchup for zoo... On paper it may not seem like it, but it is in practice. if the deck goes turn 1 nacatl, turn 2 burning tree into guide/nacatl, turn 3 smiter, your burn cant keep up with it.
It also runs vines and boros charms in the side to make it even worse. Zoo only needs to drop you to 9-12, its burn kills you the rest of the way. Zoo beats control, thats how its always been.
As far as fae goes, on the play, they beat electrolize pretty easily. Turn 1 they discard your answer to bitter, than turn two bitter, untaping on turn three they can now spellstutter for 3 cmc, or scion.
Zoo does beat control, but Geist of Saint Win isn't control, it is midrange/tempo...and I'm not talking about paper, I've been playtesting it since the unban...
This isn't about the ban list. I've been thinking about building soul sisters. What's the deck good against, and what does it have a hard time against/what can it not beat?
This isn't about the ban list. I've been thinking about building soul sisters. What's the deck good against, and what does it have a hard time against/what can it not beat?
To me, it seems like it is strong against aggro (other than infect) and midrange, but is weak to combo.
This isn't about the ban list. I've been thinking about building soul sisters. What's the deck good against, and what does it have a hard time against/what can it not beat?
To me, it seems like it is strong against aggro (other than infect) and midrange, but is weak to combo.
Depends on the combo. A single Soul Warden stops Splinter Twin (or Kiki-Pod) from comboing off with Exarch, and two will stop it from comboing off with Pestermite.
It does seem quite good against aggro, though. Aggro vs. aggro is often a race, and forcing your opponent to run farther to win the race is a great thing. It's especially lethal against Burn, which it's almost an unwinnable matchup for the Burn player.
GR Tron is a tough matchup, for two big reasons. First, Tron barely cares about its opponent's life total, so you can gain as much life as you want and Tron doesn't mind, outside of possibly it resulting in a big Ajani's Pridemate or Serra Ascendant. Second, Tron has good sweepers to beat you with. Pyroclasm kills everything in the deck other than Ajani's Pridemate or Serra Ascendant (though both need to have been buffed up to survive it), and Oblivion Stone kills everything period, unless you're in the Red version, in which case Purphoros survives.
This isn't about the ban list. I've been thinking about building soul sisters. What's the deck good against, and what does it have a hard time against/what can it not beat?
To me, it seems like it is strong against aggro (other than infect) and midrange, but is weak to combo.
Depends on the combo. A single Soul Warden stops Splinter Twin (or Kiki-Pod) from comboing off with Exarch, and two will stop it from comboing off with Pestermite.
It does seem quite good against aggro, though. Aggro vs. aggro is often a race, and forcing your opponent to run farther to win the race is a great thing. It's especially lethal against Burn, which it's almost an unwinnable matchup for the Burn player.
GR Tron is a tough matchup, for two big reasons. First, Tron barely cares about its opponent's life total, so you can gain as much life as you want and Tron doesn't mind, outside of possibly it resulting in a big Ajani's Pridemate or Serra Ascendant. Second, Tron has good sweepers to beat you with. Pyroclasm kills everything in the deck other than Ajani's Pridemate or Serra Ascendant (though both need to have been buffed up to survive it), and Oblivion Stone kills everything period, unless you're in the Red version, in which case Purphoros survives.
You let the 5 other archetypes that hose tron bully the deck out of the metagame.
Seriously. Fae, Zoo, twin, and scapeshift all have outstanding matchups against GR tron. Soul Sisters is positioned well against Zoo, fae, and burn, while being mediocre against twin, affinity, BGx, and scapeshift, and is a dog to tron, URW control, UWR midrange, and gifts combo.
I thought we're at this point in our lives where we know that the token Bogles match is an inevitability and that all decks must be able to either answer Bogles or win through it without giving a damn.
Maindeck, you just kinda have to hope you can manage to get there before they stabilize. Sideboard is when you can try to shake things up. Your best card against Urzatron is probably Stony Silence. It turns off so many things in that deck, including Oblivion Stone (which is very strong against you) and the Chromatics (which make it harder of them to cast Pyroclasm).
I think the Red splash of Soul Sisters has better game against Tron as well. Tron has issues taking out a Purphoros (all they really have to do so is Karn Liberated), and hitting the opponent for 2 damage each time you get a creature is pretty powerful, especially when combined with Norin the Wary. Purphoros means that even if they blow you out with Pyroclasm or Oblivion Stone, just casting creatures is threatening.
Whether you're in the Red splash or not, though, be very wary of Torpor Orb. That's standard in GR Tron sideboards, and it turns your creatures into a bunch of grizzly bears. Some kind of artifact destruction is thus very useful in addition to Stony Silence.
But again, the Soul Sisters thread is probably the best place to ask these questions.
You let the 5 other archetypes that hose tron bully the deck out of the metagame.
Seriously. Fae, Zoo, twin, and scapeshift all have outstanding matchups against GR tron. Soul Sisters is positioned well against Zoo, fae, and burn, while being mediocre against twin, affinity, BGx, and scapeshift, and is a dog to tron, URW control, UWR midrange, and gifts combo.
This seems like a complicated way of saying "hope to heck you don't get matched up against it."
You let the 5 other archetypes that hose tron bully the deck out of the metagame.
Seriously. Fae, Zoo, twin, and scapeshift all have outstanding matchups against GR tron. Soul Sisters is positioned well against Zoo, fae, and burn, while being mediocre against twin, affinity, BGx, and scapeshift, and is a dog to tron, URW control, UWR midrange, and gifts combo.
This seems like a complicated way of saying "hope to heck you don't get matched up against it."
Essentially, yes. Tron was/is notorious for having wildly varying matchup percentages against different archetypes, largely because the deck's weaknesses are GLARING weaknesses. Soul Sisters is actually in the same boat, as certain cards like wrath effects and night of soul's betrayal absolutely hose the synergy of the deck.
From my experience, the number one best card against Zoo is lightning helix, so I don't think America will be going the way of Grixis or Esper for that matchup...you basically lightning helix a nacatl, kird ape, loam lion the second you see it and saves PtE for the bigger threats (goyf, smiter, KotR) or even a bolt snap bolt combo...
Against faeries, Celestial Purge really shines, so I could maybe see esper, but the ultimate sideboard card versus faeries I think will end up being volcanic fallout. And as much as people think Geist is a liability in that matchup, he truly is not. On the draw I could see him being a bit worse obviously, but if you land geist turn 3 on the play assuming they played BB turn 2, you are looking at 1 token and:
-Scion of Oona: Burn it...
-Spellstutter sprite flashed in for double block: Counter or burn it...
-Vendillion clique flashed in to block: Counter or burn it...
If you do any of that, you just blew them out pretty bad as they are losing their board state. Honestly, I think most smart bitterblossom players would just take the damage in that case, maybe chump the angel with the token. But if they are chumping the angel with the token each turn, you are essentially pinging them for 3 each turn. O yeah, and there are basically 0 scenarios where a bonfire for 2 against a board of faeries doesn't wipe them out (maybe if they have two Mistbind Cliques).
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True, Traft won't be good in removal-light shells because of the blocker problem, but I've found that Traft backed up by Geist of Saint Win's burn can consistently cut through Bitterblossom (without anthems). They double block, a token gets Bolted. They triple block, two tokens get Electrolyzed half the time.
...Give Bitterblossom an anthem or Scion of Oona, though, and Traft is screwed.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
Also, wear//tear destroys fearies and a resolved thundermaw hellkite blows them out...
You begin your two sentences long post with an attack and you end it discussing the possibility of a 3 color deck that cares about the presence of plains and forests play Blood Moon in the main board.
I honestly think it's way too early to know how this will turn out. However we can conclude that people trying to make Bitterblossom or Wild Nacatl work won't be hard to find. Tier 1 or not, other decks should be ready to face these cards. This is going to be pretty interesting when UB Fae plays against Zoo... hehe
UWR are colors that happen to have several cards that answer these 2 new threats.
Electrolyze is not great against 3 toughness aggro decks but it can be the 3rd point of damage when blocking with a snapcaster. The card also cantrips which helps you find one of the many cards such as Path, Bolt, Verdict or Helix that are meant to deal with aggro. Yes it's super slow at 3 mana... but it's not a dead card. Meanwhile, it's pretty good at killing Scion, Clique, Spellstutter, Snapcaster and tokens. Fae plays counters yes.. but UWR is built with almost exclusively instants so it can easily interact with other blue decks.
Turn 1 DRS, Turn 2 Lili. This is what you don't want to see when you have a Spell Snare instead of a bolt in your hand. While Spell Snare is still awful against Zoo, it just got better against Jund which will rely much more on their turn 2 Ooze/Bitterblossom/Confidant. Spell Snare is also going to help against Fae, stopping SSS, Remand, Bitterblossom, Snapcaster. It's actually one of the only way to efficiently deal with a turn 2 Bitterblossom... I think I want to play Fae just for that kind of interaction in the mirror.
Playing 3 colors like UWR does is also a pretty good way to support a card like Engineered Explosives. That card is insane against tokens but can also deal with Bitterblossom itself while bypassing Scion's shroud. It's also not so bad against aggro being a sweeper for 3 or 4 mana total.
About Geist, for him to be blocked by 2 tokens, the Bitterblossom was dropped on turn 2 and we're on turn 4. UWR plays removal and with a Geist on board, you're playing tempo for the win. It is true that Geist has trouble attacking against creatures, but that's nothing new, Lingering Souls has been here for a while now and in the context of attacking with Geist on turn 4, Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom aren't so different.
Keep in mind Geist comes with 56+15 other cards, some of them are meant to kill creatures.
I guess my point is it is way too soon know if UWR is better or worse and all we can do is speculate. However, UWR is a reactive deck so as long as there are blue/white/red cards that are good against the meta, UWR will have a shot at drawing these cards in the right order. Aside from when the midrange/tempo version tries to close the game quickly with Geist, the deck plays more like a control deck that is winning as long as it is not losing.
At the minimum, I feel like UWR is just going to be forced into maindecking towards likely (and overlapping) archetypes, and simply accepting the fact that it's going to be an uphill fight game 1 against a few decks.
*prepares to shill black removal spells*
But I'm expecting a grixis control or esper to take americans place.
My guess is Grixis. It is able to deal with Zoo more easily than Esper because of Lightning Bolt and it can run Volcanic Fallout to combat Faeries.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The deck commonly runs 10 damage spells and 4 unconditional removal in PtE...that just destroys zoo in my mind even if you don't counter anything. Against the fae, we have spell snare which counters bitterblossom, spellstutter sprite, mana leak, and remand and America races far quicker if you geist turn 3...not to mention all the counters we have if they don't get board presence...
I mean, electrolyze just can blow out faeries as well, and elspeth prevents the whole double block deal when geist becomes a 5/5...on top of that, if things got really crazy, a resolved Rootborn Defenses against a token double block would be an absolute blowout...
He was talking about WUR Control. I think that WUR Midrange will have to undergo some changes too though because Zoo is really bad for it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Or are we assuming Spellstutter was successfully baited out by turn 3?
Also, wear // tear in the side for UWR just owns faeries big time...
It also runs vines and boros charms in the side to make it even worse. Zoo only needs to drop you to 9-12, its burn kills you the rest of the way. Zoo beats control, thats how its always been.
As far as fae goes, on the play, they beat electrolize pretty easily. Turn 1 they discard your answer to bitter, than turn two bitter, untaping on turn three they can now spellstutter for 3 cmc, or scion.
To me, it seems like it is strong against aggro (other than infect) and midrange, but is weak to combo.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Depends on the combo. A single Soul Warden stops Splinter Twin (or Kiki-Pod) from comboing off with Exarch, and two will stop it from comboing off with Pestermite.
It does seem quite good against aggro, though. Aggro vs. aggro is often a race, and forcing your opponent to run farther to win the race is a great thing. It's especially lethal against Burn, which it's almost an unwinnable matchup for the Burn player.
GR Tron is a tough matchup, for two big reasons. First, Tron barely cares about its opponent's life total, so you can gain as much life as you want and Tron doesn't mind, outside of possibly it resulting in a big Ajani's Pridemate or Serra Ascendant. Second, Tron has good sweepers to beat you with. Pyroclasm kills everything in the deck other than Ajani's Pridemate or Serra Ascendant (though both need to have been buffed up to survive it), and Oblivion Stone kills everything period, unless you're in the Red version, in which case Purphoros survives.
Though a better place to ask might be the Soul Sisters thread.
So, how do you beat tron then?
You let the 5 other archetypes that hose tron bully the deck out of the metagame.
Seriously. Fae, Zoo, twin, and scapeshift all have outstanding matchups against GR tron. Soul Sisters is positioned well against Zoo, fae, and burn, while being mediocre against twin, affinity, BGx, and scapeshift, and is a dog to tron, URW control, UWR midrange, and gifts combo.
Pros will all switch to UWR and Zoo and Faeries.
No liliana.
THIS IS SUCH A
TERRIBLEGREAT IDEA.Don't worry, Splinter Twin and Melira Pod also got better, which will hopefully stop Bogles from dominating.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Maindeck, you just kinda have to hope you can manage to get there before they stabilize. Sideboard is when you can try to shake things up. Your best card against Urzatron is probably Stony Silence. It turns off so many things in that deck, including Oblivion Stone (which is very strong against you) and the Chromatics (which make it harder of them to cast Pyroclasm).
I think the Red splash of Soul Sisters has better game against Tron as well. Tron has issues taking out a Purphoros (all they really have to do so is Karn Liberated), and hitting the opponent for 2 damage each time you get a creature is pretty powerful, especially when combined with Norin the Wary. Purphoros means that even if they blow you out with Pyroclasm or Oblivion Stone, just casting creatures is threatening.
Whether you're in the Red splash or not, though, be very wary of Torpor Orb. That's standard in GR Tron sideboards, and it turns your creatures into a bunch of grizzly bears. Some kind of artifact destruction is thus very useful in addition to Stony Silence.
But again, the Soul Sisters thread is probably the best place to ask these questions.
This seems like a complicated way of saying "hope to heck you don't get matched up against it."
Essentially, yes. Tron was/is notorious for having wildly varying matchup percentages against different archetypes, largely because the deck's weaknesses are GLARING weaknesses. Soul Sisters is actually in the same boat, as certain cards like wrath effects and night of soul's betrayal absolutely hose the synergy of the deck.
Against faeries, Celestial Purge really shines, so I could maybe see esper, but the ultimate sideboard card versus faeries I think will end up being volcanic fallout. And as much as people think Geist is a liability in that matchup, he truly is not. On the draw I could see him being a bit worse obviously, but if you land geist turn 3 on the play assuming they played BB turn 2, you are looking at 1 token and:
-Scion of Oona: Burn it...
-Spellstutter sprite flashed in for double block: Counter or burn it...
-Vendillion clique flashed in to block: Counter or burn it...
If you do any of that, you just blew them out pretty bad as they are losing their board state. Honestly, I think most smart bitterblossom players would just take the damage in that case, maybe chump the angel with the token. But if they are chumping the angel with the token each turn, you are essentially pinging them for 3 each turn. O yeah, and there are basically 0 scenarios where a bonfire for 2 against a board of faeries doesn't wipe them out (maybe if they have two Mistbind Cliques).