TRUE. The "nut draw" of some of the combo decks I've been playtesting with/against can sometimes literally make you pass the , "Do you have a Force of Will?" test, early as turn 2/3 ... in a format with no FoW. Maybe a mana leak will get you there. Oh, you're not playing blue? Take 15 annihilator 6 to the face because Brian Tinsman LOVES EPIC STUFF!!!11
You are biased because you are heavily invested in Legacy. Moderns "power level" has to stay off your pet format because it it ever approached it then what was the point of buying all those cards right?
I feel your pain, believe me Ive wasted plenty of money on this hobby, but thats not a good enough reason to deny the new eternal format access to all pre-mirrodin cards.
I could care less if modern's power level encroaches on Legacy, as long as they keep out all the broken cards.
That is the true distinction between LEgacy and Modern, it has nothing to do with power level. People want a huge format minus busted cards.
So because I have cards, I am biased. Thats a rich one. I PREFER Modern as it is. I could really care less about Legacy, I only play Legacy because the prize at the LGS I go to is sweet. Yes I have play sets of cards reaching back to the beginning of the game, so what. I still prefer to play Modern as it is now. I had a thread up about the power level of moder compared to the other formats. The majority placed Moder right where it was suppose to be, between Legacy and Standard. If they stop supporting Legacy, I am all for Modern to take its spot. But until that time, the power level needs to be kept in check.
Oh, one other thing. Modern isnt considered an eternal format.
No. Every single card on Infallible's list completely warped the Legacy Metagame. Every single one of those cards is a highly played staple that either crushed other archetypes into the ground or gave rise to new ones. A majority of T1 Legacy decks play with those new staples. The most popular decks in Legacy as of me typing this statement include flavors of delver, stoneblade, and Maverick. Each of those archetypes were born thanks to those new cards.
The point wasnt what the cards that were mentioned did to Legacy, its the small amount of cards that actually effect the format. It comes out to be roughly 3-4 cards per 200 cards that get played in eternal formats.
It seems like WotC is already supporting Modern more than Legacy. I could be wrong though. But, i thought Modern was made as a replacement for Eternal formats that could be supported? I really don't think SCG, the juggernaut that it is, needs WotC's help in supporting Legacy. They (SCG), basically made the format into the ridiculously popular thing that it is all by themselves. (I guess, maybe, i don't really understand what you mean by 'support' could you elaborate?)
If Wotc lets Modern reach Legacy power levels and there are 2 formats with roughly the same power. IF there was an agreement between SCG and Wotc, which format do you think Wotc will nerf to lower its power level?
In my opinion Wotc out sourced the support of Legacy to SCG. If Modern starts to undercut Legacy, SCG gets kicked in the balls for all the time and effort they put into Legacy. I dont think Wotc wants that. Losing the support of one of the biggest B&M LGS would put a huge dent in sales for Wotc.
Vintage is only supported in the states at Gen-con from what I remember. (sanctioned tournament) So in my book Vintage is a dead format with no support. At least there is still a season for Legacy from Wotc. Along with the SCG tournaments, there is plenty of support for the format.
Wotc set the cut off for the format, I just dont believe they should reach back from before the cut off to print cards for the Modern format. Not to mention, for those cards to be printed and be legal in Modern, they would also have to be legal in Standard for a time. That could get messy and amp up Standard. Not sure Wotc wants to do that.
Land Grant is fine. I've only ever seen it played in really ridiculous Storm decks like MeanDeckTendrils. That deck ran off the artifact "Eggs"like Darkwater Egg and Chromatic Spheres and was really, really difficult to pilot. It was just a +1 to storm that helped the deck find it's one land.
Basically I highly doubt it would do anything in modern at all but be a really great land tutor.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Land Grant is fine. I've only ever seen it played in really ridiculous Storm decks like MeanDeckTendrils. That deck ran off the artifact "Eggs"like Darkwater Egg and Chromatic Spheres and was really, really difficult to pilot. It was just a +1 to storm that helped the deck find it's one land.
Basically I highly doubt it would do anything in modern at all but be a really great land tutor.
I don't think wizards intends on empowering the storm mechanic anymore, but the eggs would make for a pretty cool reprint, I think.
glass-cannon griselbrand decks at least deserve the chance to think they might actually be playing something good. and it's just too nostalgic.
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Quote from ClockworkSwordfish »
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
Quote from LandBoySteve »
Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
It would probably be worked into the griselbrand reanimator deck in some fashion. I am far from an expert on the deck, but off the top of the head, they could turn 1 off of
Swamp, Dark Ritual, <reanimation target>, Goryo's, Thoughtseize
Introducing a turn one win, even a slightly unlikely one, is probably not advisable if they want to make a format that matches their stated goals for modern.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
There's two problems with Dark Ritual, that would make it broken in Storm:
1) Low initial mana cost. Dark Ritual costs 1 mana. Looking at the Modern rituals, Desperate and Pyretic cost 2 and Seething Song costs 3. That makes the threshold for Past in Flames lower. Right now, you need to hit 6 mana in order to Past (4) and ritual (2) to rebuild your mana. If Dark Ritual is introduced, this drops to 5.
2) High mana output. It gives you 2 more mana than you put into it.
Forget being off color, almost every red card in the deck can either turn colorless mana into red (1R or 2R rituals, Manamorphose), or uses up a lot of colorless mana (Past in Flames).
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
can people stop naming degenerate cards (anything with storm, dredge, dark ritual).
These arent degenerate cards. You understand that Dredge + Minds Desire Storm both existed in a format without Force of Will (Old Extended) and did perfectly fine? They weren't even the most prominent decks.
The combo-phobia in these forums and others sickens me. I guess Wizards' recent "Creature-Centric" magic has really lead sheep over cliffs. So sick of it.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Yeah, I really agree with Psychatog. Also, if not the onslaught cycling lands then at least the urza cycling lands. Innocent Blood could push black over the edge though, idk.
EDIT: @above: TEPS was dominant for a while and right before rotation was when dredge got broken wide open. Still, I'm glad I'm not the only one who is fond of that period.
The card will never be used for anything other than to win the game on the spot. It's probably the biggest mistake in magic history (except for maybe affinity)
Was Dark Ritual legal? Seething Song? Manamorphose? Gitaxian Probe? any of the cards that would make it absolutely ridiculous? No no no no
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
Last week I made a big post of cards and tried to steer away from degenerate, or often even just "overpowered". And I didn't get a single post in response.
Maybe its just bad timing on my part or something, but it seems like reasonable suggestions don't generate much discussion.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
can people stop naming degenerate cards (anything with storm, dredge, dark ritual).
Eternal Dragon [would not see play]
Decree of Justice [would not see play]
The onslaught "cycling" lands [would be an awesome reprint]
Mirari's Wake [would not see play]
Moment's Peace [would be an awesome reprint]
Compulsion [would be an awesome reprint]
Psychatog [would not see play]
Innocent Blood (probably the biggest one) [would be an awesome reprint]
Krosan Verge [would be an awesome reprint]
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
Quote from LandBoySteve »
Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
The card will never be used for anything other than to win the game on the spot. It's probably the biggest mistake in magic history (except for maybe affinity)
Was Dark Ritual legal? Seething Song? Manamorphose? Gitaxian Probe? any of the cards that would make it absolutely ridiculous? No no no no
You completely ignored the rest of my post. The part where I showed that Dredge and Minds Desire EXISTED AND WERE PLAYED in a format without Force of Will in it. And they weren't even the best decks in the format. CounterTop or Riptide Laboratory w/Faeries were. And you know what? The world didn't end. The format was healthy, thriving even. Old Extended is probably one of the best periods of magic history ever. Your combophobia and lack of understanding make your arguments impossible to stomach. There is nothing wrong with a card that says "I Win" provided activating or utilizing such a card requires EITHER! deckbuilding in a narrow manner, specifically for that card, or a large amount of player skill/math/game mechanics knowledge for said card to work.
I am getting so sick of these ignorant magic players who started playing with Lorwyn, or Shards of Alara or some other dumbed down "Turn mah Durdles" sideways period. These players' opinions are much less valid than anyone who has experienced a diverse and healthy format with combo decks, aggro decks, and control decks in them.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
It's too bad old extended isn't what wizards is using for a model with modern. In my opinion it was the only format that could hold a candle to legacy, unfortunately toning magic down is what they believe to be the better choice. Don't get me wrong though, it's a great format, just not as enjoyable for me as old extended.
It's too bad old extended isn't what wizards is using for a model with modern. In my opinion it was the only format that could hold a candle to legacy, unfortunately toning magic down is what they believe to be the better choice. Don't get me wrong though, it's a great format, just not as enjoyable for me as old extended.
I agree. But they aren't toning magic down, the cards are still powerful. They are narrowing the realm of strategies down rather than making cards less powerful.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
On topic, I'd like to see Cabal Therapy to play with. Pretty much everyone agrees it's one of the most skill-intensive cards printed, to play with and against, and a card which can do that without being broken in half is always welcome in a format like this.
I know there are a lot of people that would like it for an attempt at modern dredge. It's kind of a missing key component to the deck.
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So because I have cards, I am biased. Thats a rich one. I PREFER Modern as it is. I could really care less about Legacy, I only play Legacy because the prize at the LGS I go to is sweet. Yes I have play sets of cards reaching back to the beginning of the game, so what. I still prefer to play Modern as it is now. I had a thread up about the power level of moder compared to the other formats. The majority placed Moder right where it was suppose to be, between Legacy and Standard. If they stop supporting Legacy, I am all for Modern to take its spot. But until that time, the power level needs to be kept in check.
Oh, one other thing. Modern isnt considered an eternal format.
The point wasnt what the cards that were mentioned did to Legacy, its the small amount of cards that actually effect the format. It comes out to be roughly 3-4 cards per 200 cards that get played in eternal formats.
If Wotc lets Modern reach Legacy power levels and there are 2 formats with roughly the same power. IF there was an agreement between SCG and Wotc, which format do you think Wotc will nerf to lower its power level?
In my opinion Wotc out sourced the support of Legacy to SCG. If Modern starts to undercut Legacy, SCG gets kicked in the balls for all the time and effort they put into Legacy. I dont think Wotc wants that. Losing the support of one of the biggest B&M LGS would put a huge dent in sales for Wotc.
Vintage is only supported in the states at Gen-con from what I remember. (sanctioned tournament) So in my book Vintage is a dead format with no support. At least there is still a season for Legacy from Wotc. Along with the SCG tournaments, there is plenty of support for the format.
Wotc set the cut off for the format, I just dont believe they should reach back from before the cut off to print cards for the Modern format. Not to mention, for those cards to be printed and be legal in Modern, they would also have to be legal in Standard for a time. That could get messy and amp up Standard. Not sure Wotc wants to do that.
Honestly, I think that generalizing the statement like this still keeps it true.
-Tom
Please don't try to convince me its gonna make storm to good...or a neutered charbelcher deck become top dog.
Basically I highly doubt it would do anything in modern at all but be a really great land tutor.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I don't think wizards intends on empowering the storm mechanic anymore, but the eggs would make for a pretty cool reprint, I think.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
there. i said it.
glass-cannon griselbrand decks at least deserve the chance to think they might actually be playing something good. and it's just too nostalgic.
I would kill to have Dark Ritual in modern. That way, when I say using Infernal Tutor in past in flames decks, people wont look at me funny.
Swamp, Dark Ritual, <reanimation target>, Goryo's, Thoughtseize
Introducing a turn one win, even a slightly unlikely one, is probably not advisable if they want to make a format that matches their stated goals for modern.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
There's two problems with Dark Ritual, that would make it broken in Storm:
1) Low initial mana cost. Dark Ritual costs 1 mana. Looking at the Modern rituals, Desperate and Pyretic cost 2 and Seething Song costs 3. That makes the threshold for Past in Flames lower. Right now, you need to hit 6 mana in order to Past (4) and ritual (2) to rebuild your mana. If Dark Ritual is introduced, this drops to 5.
2) High mana output. It gives you 2 more mana than you put into it.
Forget being off color, almost every red card in the deck can either turn colorless mana into red (1R or 2R rituals, Manamorphose), or uses up a lot of colorless mana (Past in Flames).
You can even lose blue and jam Infernal Tutor and Dark Confidant in.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
The only broken storm deck that has ever existed has been Mind Desire.
Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens, Dragonstorm, Ignite Memories are all fair cards.
Hell, even Brainfreeze and Tendrils of Agony are fair cards.
Kid's are lucky you aren't playing in a format with Burning Wish. Haha
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Eternal Dragon
Decree of Justice
The onslaught "cycling" lands
Mirari's Wake
Moment's Peace
Compulsion
Psychatog
Innocent Blood (probably the biggest one)
Krosan Verge
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
These arent degenerate cards. You understand that Dredge + Minds Desire Storm both existed in a format without Force of Will (Old Extended) and did perfectly fine? They weren't even the most prominent decks.
The combo-phobia in these forums and others sickens me. I guess Wizards' recent "Creature-Centric" magic has really lead sheep over cliffs. So sick of it.
EDIT: @above: TEPS was dominant for a while and right before rotation was when dredge got broken wide open. Still, I'm glad I'm not the only one who is fond of that period.
Just wow.
Mind's Desire is the poster child of degenerate.
The card will never be used for anything other than to win the game on the spot. It's probably the biggest mistake in magic history (except for maybe affinity)
Was Dark Ritual legal? Seething Song? Manamorphose? Gitaxian Probe? any of the cards that would make it absolutely ridiculous? No no no no
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
Last week I made a big post of cards and tried to steer away from degenerate, or often even just "overpowered". And I didn't get a single post in response.
Maybe its just bad timing on my part or something, but it seems like reasonable suggestions don't generate much discussion.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
i was just about to suggest goblin bombardment, but blasting station is pretty similar. how come there's no blasting station/enduring renewal/memnite deck in the world, and why must its mantle fall to me?
You completely ignored the rest of my post. The part where I showed that Dredge and Minds Desire EXISTED AND WERE PLAYED in a format without Force of Will in it. And they weren't even the best decks in the format. CounterTop or Riptide Laboratory w/Faeries were. And you know what? The world didn't end. The format was healthy, thriving even. Old Extended is probably one of the best periods of magic history ever. Your combophobia and lack of understanding make your arguments impossible to stomach. There is nothing wrong with a card that says "I Win" provided activating or utilizing such a card requires EITHER! deckbuilding in a narrow manner, specifically for that card, or a large amount of player skill/math/game mechanics knowledge for said card to work.
I am getting so sick of these ignorant magic players who started playing with Lorwyn, or Shards of Alara or some other dumbed down "Turn mah Durdles" sideways period. These players' opinions are much less valid than anyone who has experienced a diverse and healthy format with combo decks, aggro decks, and control decks in them.
I agree. But they aren't toning magic down, the cards are still powerful. They are narrowing the realm of strategies down rather than making cards less powerful.
I know there are a lot of people that would like it for an attempt at modern dredge. It's kind of a missing key component to the deck.