Counterspell wouldn't be unique in not losing value as the game goes on. Most answers can answer the same cards early and late game. Lightning Bolt kills 3 toughness or less creatures on turn 1 and on turn 500. Murderous Cut destroys a creature when you cast on turn 5 or on turn 25. Anguished Unmaking exiles a nonland card on turn 3 and still exiles nonland cards on turn 4, 5, 6, and 7. Blue has the problem that mana leak and remand can answer a card on turn 2 but not on turn 4. If you want to be able hit the same cards as the game develops you have to play very narrow answers like Spell Snare or Negate.
Prohibit would be able to hit the same cmc 2 or less spells early game and late game.
It's also worth noting that counterspell in the late game is powerful but can't hit anything that's already on the board. It's not quite as unconditional as other cards. In a late game top deck war it can lead to some very awkward positions where it can answer anything they cast but you just die to a manland or noble heirarch.
Well, Lightning bolt kill everything in the early game, but as larger creatures hit play it can no longer kill everything, and the things it does hit are probably the least dangerous. Similarly for abrupt decay. Murderous Cut needs a combination of a stocked graveyard and mana and is thus not able to do anything early game. Path to Exile's drawback is significant early but becomes less of a worry as the game goes on.
That was the point I was trying to make. The text on the card stays the same, but the relevance of that text to the game changes. Counterspell hits everything unconditionally, and it comes online as early as turn two. Now it does have the timing restrictions that you mentioned, and it also forces you to have UU untapped on turn two. But in terms of an early game answer that can still hit anything late game it does seem rather unique.
--
I am unsure about Counterspell myself. I would have said I was probably in the "it's fine" camp (although I have had the displeasure of being killed by a Thumbscrews), but I also respect LSV as an authority on magic, and I don't find it easy to dismiss his comments just like that. Also, the part about the "not loose relevance in the late game" was a novel way of looking at it that I wanted to discuss.
--
But the point I was making is that Lightning Bolt still kills those early game creatures in the late game. It can't kill bigger creatures but it can kill smaller creatures all game long. I even said it could only kill creatures with 3 toughness or less. The relevance to the game state may have diminished but if I top deck a grim lavamancer and start hitting you with it you can always bolt it. Many decks run exclusively less than 3 toughness creatures so Lightning Bolt is a removal spell all game long.
Answers may become less powerful as more threats that they can't deal with hit the field but most answers continue to be able deal with some threats as the game progresses. Abrupt Decay can still hit goyf if your opponent top decks it when you both have 10 lands. Mana Leak can't do that.
There were two points I was trying to make in the previous post so maybe I was unclear.
1. Blue's current 2 mana counter spells are either much narrower than similar removal options or lose almost all relevance as the game continues. As such something slightly more broad but capable of working in longer games would help blue control. Something like Prohibit.
2. My second point was about counterspell specifically and that not losing relevance is not unique to counterspell. Path to Exile still exiles creatures all game long. Murderous Cut can be active on turn 3 and it still hits late game creatures. Almost any early game answer a control deck wants to run will be relevant late game. Even in the late game people still play the early game spells they draw so early game answers are still useful although worse. Counterspell does hit more things than the average 2 mana answer but it can't answer lands or any of the can't be countered spells. It also has different relation to the board state where it becomes much less valuable if your opponent has gotten a threat on board already. This can lower it's value in the late game if you start having to top deck.
This isn't really a Reprint request, but an idea with Counterspell. Wizards was fine with "Counterspell if you jump through hoops" even as recent as Dragons of Tarkir. Would some sort of Energy based Counter be something that could see play in Modern? Something like:
Aether Leak UU
Instant
You gain 3 Energy, then you may pay any amount of Energy.
Counter Target spell unless it's controller pays X, where X is the number of Energy you paid.
Yeah, Counterspell would be one of those "one or two ofs only in the hardest control lists" sort of things. We've already got Mana Leak and Remand for two mana counters that are arguably good enough to be played instead of Counterspell in a lot of decks, and a whole PILE of niche "almost as goods". Would it find a slot? Sure, maybe a few, but it'd hardly change the metagame. It's not going to come down early vs. Aggro unless you're in Mono-Blue. Otherwise, you're likely using Fetch-Shocks to meet the UU requirement, and are down 4-6 life to set up a counterspell that doesn't provide any card advantage. It'd hurt the go big decks like Tron, but they're the decks least needing to be hurt right now.
Yep, the problem with Counterspell is finding a Standard where it's appropriate, not that it's too good for Modern. WotC doesn't want Draw-Go to be a standard archetype ever again.
Yep, the problem with Counterspell is finding a Standard where it's appropriate, not that it's too good for Modern. WotC doesn't want Draw-Go to be a standard archetype ever again.
Actually players don't like control, not WOTC...
Game 1 going for 1 hour or more. What about game 2 and 3?
Plus on-cast triggers, creatures that enter from the graveyard or from exile, planeswalkers...
When was the last time when pure draw-go type of decks were playable - early '00s?
Just look at the power creep.
Depends on your version of Draw-Go. INN-RTR saw a fairly good Esper deck that I would consider draw-go using Nephalia Drownyard as a win condition and Sphinx's Revelation for card draw and life gain. That was only 3 years ago when Innistrad rotated out.
Fire // Ice would be sweet in Modern, not overpowered but a really good toolbox-esk card. It would definitely see play in UR Delver, and some versions of RUG and Grixis Delver would play a couple of copies depending on the build.
Another card I would like to see is Curfew. It is nowhere near overpowered, it has some cool synergies with cards like Snapcaster Mage and other ETB effects plus it is another tool to fight all-in decks like Infect while not being dead in the water against other decks.
And where are they going to reprint these cards?
They don't want introduce cards in Modern outside of Standard.
I still believe Prohibit would be totally fair in Standard and would give Modern a badly-needed blue catchall. Same with poor Innocent Blood. Both cards fit Wizards' criteria of conditional spells that don't trump all other options (e.g. Counterspell vs. Negate/Essence Scatter), and cards you wouldn't just splash to play on their own (e.g. playing Red just for Bolt).
Depending on the deck, I can see Innocent Blood being splashed for.
Just noticed that Innocent Blood was reprinted in both Eternal Masters and Nissa vs. Ob Nixilus. It's probably optimistic but I'm calling a reprint in Amonkhet with new Bolas flavor.
Also, agree with everyone saying Prohibit should be reprinted. I'd also add Gush as a good reprint that would be playable in some U and UG control decks w/out being something any deck can easily jam in. Instant speed card draw in the early turns is badly needed for U based control decks to stand a prayer.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Yeah, Black needs Innocent Blood, I think. It would go a long way toward making Sultai a playable color combo. A near functional reprint of Recoil would be pretty awesome too, I assume they'd make it only non-land permanents though. I also wouldn't mind a Curfew reprint.
We're never getting Gush. Never, ever. If it ever makes it into Standard by some unholy pact, it will be preemptively banned in Modern. Free card draw is waaaaaaaaaaay too powerful for this format, as it stands.
Gush isn't just a free Divination, it comes with a Lotus Petal attached. Way too strong for any format but Vintage. It occasionally gets brought up as a potential unban in Legacy and storm players just giggle.
Gush isn't just a free Divination, it comes with a Lotus Petal attached. Way too strong for any format but Vintage. It occasionally gets brought up as a potential unban in Legacy and storm players just giggle.
I actually think Gush would be fine for standard. There aren't enough ways to really abuse it there. Modern though? Yeah, storm would catapult to tier 1 and become an obnoxious deck to play against.
There are actual 0 ways to "abuse" gush in pauper either, but as a heavy pauper player let me tell you that card is very powerful even when cast "fairly"
Once again putting forward the suggestion of a Crystal Vein reprint.
It's one time use only, and not as powerful as Eye of Ugin. There won't be a second coming of Eldrazi Winter if vein gets reprinted.
Once again putting forward the suggestion of a Crystal Vein reprint.
It's one time use only, and not as powerful as Eye of Ugin. There won't be a second coming of Eldrazi Winter if vein gets reprinted.
Eldrazi is already powerful enough. Why give them 4 extra cards with which they can T2 TKS and T3 Reality Smasher?
At my lgs last night we all got into talking about an armageddon print into modern. The general conclusion is that it would be very good for the format, thoughts?
At my lgs last night we all got into talking about an armageddon print into modern. The general conclusion is that it would be very good for the format, thoughts?
maro has said before that armageddon is a card they do not want to reprint in standard or let it go into modern.
its one of those cards printed in the past that they do not want to re-introduce to modern/contemporary formats as part of their "new world order" plan.
this also goes for cards like stasis and winter orb.
At my lgs last night we all got into talking about an armageddon print into modern. The general conclusion is that it would be very good for the format, thoughts?
maro has said before that armageddon is a card they do not want to reprint in standard or let it go into modern.
its one of those cards printed in the past that they do not want to re-introduce to modern/contemporary formats as part of their "new world order" plan.
this also goes for cards like stasis and winter orb.
Right, im aware of this, but assuming they somehow got past the standard issue and decided they wanted it in modern, would it be safe? Would it even be good?
Once again putting forward the suggestion of a Crystal Vein reprint. It's one time use only, and not as powerful as Eye of Ugin. There won't be a second coming of Eldrazi Winter if vein gets reprinted.
At my lgs last night we all got into talking about an armageddon print into modern. The general conclusion is that it would be very good for the format, thoughts?
maro has said before that armageddon is a card they do not want to reprint in standard or let it go into modern.
its one of those cards printed in the past that they do not want to re-introduce to modern/contemporary formats as part of their "new world order" plan.
this also goes for cards like stasis and winter orb.
Right, im aware of this, but assuming they somehow got past the standard issue and decided they wanted it in modern, would it be safe? Would it even be good?
it would bring back the old "rush and dump" type aggro decks (these decks now also have Noble Hierarch) and allow obnoxious prison decks like Lantern Control to be even more obnoxious.
i remember the wotc team do not like cards like Ensnaring Bridge and Chalice of the Void. Armageddon falls into this category of cards that are "Un-magic".
You won't see it. It's in different colour now.
Someone recently asked Maro.
Prison would be a side board card and i would have to Splash for it instead of going mono U so yeah having it in a differenti colour is the same as not having it
Most of the other stuff I either don't think would ever have a chance of being Modern relevant, or I think it might be too good in some way. I don't actually think Ash Barrens is too powerful balance wise, so much as the color pie issues it brings up with comparisons to Lay of the Land. I also don't really like the flavor of how Goblin Spymaster ends up working sometimes, so I think it might be nice to have a card that is very similar mechanically, but uses different creature types and flavor for the same mechanics to make what is going on more magical than simple goblin incitement and 'infiltration'. I'm also annoyed that Migratory Route makes tokens that are only white, rather than blue/white (that kind of thing annoys me on a lot of similar cards out there where the color(s) of tokens created pointlessly doesn't match the card itself, since in this case, birds can easily be blue or white or both).
I have never wanted a common reprinted into a standard legal set as much as Ash Barrens. I absolutely love it and it would help give loam a boost. Although, it does weaken blood moon, which I'm not okay with.
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Come watch me stream over at my twitch channel. I play Loam Pox, Ad Nauseam, and jank in modern on MTGO.
I have never wanted a common reprinted into a standard legal set as much as Ash Barrens. I absolutely love it and it would help give loam a boost. Although, it does weaken blood moon, which I'm not okay with.
It's not a real card, so it couldn't possibly be reprinted.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
But the point I was making is that Lightning Bolt still kills those early game creatures in the late game. It can't kill bigger creatures but it can kill smaller creatures all game long. I even said it could only kill creatures with 3 toughness or less. The relevance to the game state may have diminished but if I top deck a grim lavamancer and start hitting you with it you can always bolt it. Many decks run exclusively less than 3 toughness creatures so Lightning Bolt is a removal spell all game long.
Answers may become less powerful as more threats that they can't deal with hit the field but most answers continue to be able deal with some threats as the game progresses. Abrupt Decay can still hit goyf if your opponent top decks it when you both have 10 lands. Mana Leak can't do that.
There were two points I was trying to make in the previous post so maybe I was unclear.
1. Blue's current 2 mana counter spells are either much narrower than similar removal options or lose almost all relevance as the game continues. As such something slightly more broad but capable of working in longer games would help blue control. Something like Prohibit.
2. My second point was about counterspell specifically and that not losing relevance is not unique to counterspell. Path to Exile still exiles creatures all game long. Murderous Cut can be active on turn 3 and it still hits late game creatures. Almost any early game answer a control deck wants to run will be relevant late game. Even in the late game people still play the early game spells they draw so early game answers are still useful although worse. Counterspell does hit more things than the average 2 mana answer but it can't answer lands or any of the can't be countered spells. It also has different relation to the board state where it becomes much less valuable if your opponent has gotten a threat on board already. This can lower it's value in the late game if you start having to top deck.
Aether Leak UU
Instant
You gain 3 Energy, then you may pay any amount of Energy.
Counter Target spell unless it's controller pays X, where X is the number of Energy you paid.
Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny
Depends on your version of Draw-Go. INN-RTR saw a fairly good Esper deck that I would consider draw-go using Nephalia Drownyard as a win condition and Sphinx's Revelation for card draw and life gain. That was only 3 years ago when Innistrad rotated out.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Also, agree with everyone saying Prohibit should be reprinted. I'd also add Gush as a good reprint that would be playable in some U and UG control decks w/out being something any deck can easily jam in. Instant speed card draw in the early turns is badly needed for U based control decks to stand a prayer.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
We're never getting Gush. Never, ever. If it ever makes it into Standard by some unholy pact, it will be preemptively banned in Modern. Free card draw is waaaaaaaaaaay too powerful for this format, as it stands.
I actually think Gush would be fine for standard. There aren't enough ways to really abuse it there. Modern though? Yeah, storm would catapult to tier 1 and become an obnoxious deck to play against.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
It's one time use only, and not as powerful as Eye of Ugin. There won't be a second coming of Eldrazi Winter if vein gets reprinted.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
maro has said before that armageddon is a card they do not want to reprint in standard or let it go into modern.
its one of those cards printed in the past that they do not want to re-introduce to modern/contemporary formats as part of their "new world order" plan.
this also goes for cards like stasis and winter orb.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Right, im aware of this, but assuming they somehow got past the standard issue and decided they wanted it in modern, would it be safe? Would it even be good?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
it would bring back the old "rush and dump" type aggro decks (these decks now also have Noble Hierarch) and allow obnoxious prison decks like Lantern Control to be even more obnoxious.
i remember the wotc team do not like cards like Ensnaring Bridge and Chalice of the Void. Armageddon falls into this category of cards that are "Un-magic".
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Prison would be a side board card and i would have to Splash for it instead of going mono U so yeah having it in a differenti colour is the same as not having it
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Ancient Excavation
Migratory Route
Deepglow Skate
Selfless Squire
Entrapment Maneuver
Conqueror’s Flail
Frenzied Fugue
Goblin Spymaster
Most of the other stuff I either don't think would ever have a chance of being Modern relevant, or I think it might be too good in some way. I don't actually think Ash Barrens is too powerful balance wise, so much as the color pie issues it brings up with comparisons to Lay of the Land. I also don't really like the flavor of how Goblin Spymaster ends up working sometimes, so I think it might be nice to have a card that is very similar mechanically, but uses different creature types and flavor for the same mechanics to make what is going on more magical than simple goblin incitement and 'infiltration'. I'm also annoyed that Migratory Route makes tokens that are only white, rather than blue/white (that kind of thing annoys me on a lot of similar cards out there where the color(s) of tokens created pointlessly doesn't match the card itself, since in this case, birds can easily be blue or white or both).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me): Add to your mana pool.
Basic landcycling
I don't think it's much better than the Panoramas though. It does give you a way to get out from under Blood Moon, which is a plus.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.