I like playing Control, and I even like playing Strix (play it in Legacy) but it's not a card that would help Modern. We are (hopefully) finally getting to a point where fair interactive strategies are gaining some ground against linear decks; Strix is a card that basically begs other players not to play fair creature decks but instead play something like Grishoalbrand or Tron that doesn't care about Strix. I don't see how that would be beneficial to the Modern meta. Grixis decks are already good enough at grinding out creature decks, we don't need another tool for that, we need something to deal with ramp and combo.
Better creature removal is just about the last thing Modern control decks need, we are already fine in that department. We need Counterspell or some equivalent badly.
What are you talking about? Strix promotes playing more removal effects to kill it. (promotes cards like disfigure/darkblast) Griselbrand definitely CARES about strix (it has flying). Tron already dismantles grixis. Strix helps against aggro and aggro only... Strix gives us: Grixis at tier 1, esper midrange decks being good, boosts tezzerator decks, etc.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Whos complaining though? We'd just like to see a card reprinted that would elevate some tier 2 decks into, perhaps, tier 1, I havent seen people in here shouting about how horrible and terrible and *****ty modern is because Baleful Strix isn't in the format.
Even if Strix does get reprinted Grixis will still have bad matchups (Tron, for instance), as people have said. Furthermore you play a deck that is very similar to that, a la Jund.
You need to defend why Grixis doing "good enough" is a reason to not introduce Baleful Strix into Modern. As of yet you haven't really given an argument other than, "it would be broken because its too value (in a vacuum)" or, "Why does it NEED to be printed? Why do these decks NEED to be improved?" But its not about anything NEEDING to happen, Grixis doesn't NEED to be Tier 1, but what does it hurt? Why is having Tier 1 Grixis unhealthy for Modern? What does it break? The argument that having more than one Tier 1 control deck in Modern doesn't really hold without more explanation because there are several Tier 1 aggro and midrange decks. You need to argue why Baleful Strix is unhealthy for Modern that doesn't come from a place of, "Well I don't like control so its unhealthy."
I should also mention half of the cards you mentioned aren't even blue cards. (I take a rough estimation of your point though, cards that enable blue to be played)
I think we can all agree that Modern is great, but "great" isn't perfect, and even if we can never achieve "perfect" it doesn't hurt to keep trying to make it better and better.
The burden of proof here though should be on those arguing FOR the reprint, not against it, when we are talking about a potentially format warping card. Modern has issues, but Strix does not seem like a card that fixes any of them. Dealing with creatures is not and has never been something that Modern control decks have struggled with. What we REALLY need in the format is stuff like Counterspell or Miscalculation, and adding Strix to the format I fear would make WotC more reluctant to print those much-needed answers in the future.
Strix is also a card that makes Control's good MUs better but doesn't help its bad MUs. If we want to make control stronger in Modern, we should print cards that give control more of a chance against Scapeshift, Tron, etc, not by improving its already good matchups which is what Strix would do.
As a Grixis player, I don't want/need another card that's good against Infect and Jund, we already have a plethora of those.
I was mostly arguing against the way he was arguing, while I don't think Strix would hurt Modern much I also don't particularly care if it's printed (as much as I adore UB <3).
I really would like a new Counterspell, although while part of me really wants THE Counterspell, I doubt they'd print it and I think conditional counterspells are also more interesting from a gameplay perspective. Miscalculation for instance, would be a great reprint as far as being a worse Mana Leak while providing more versatility than Mana Leak.
One thing I'd like to know about is how Strix would really impact more Esper/BUG builds, because while I love Grixis, I also love BUG/like Esper and wonder if Strix would help them in any particular way or if, as you put it, it'd just be another card that make's their good MUs better but doesn't help the bad MUs. I can't really say, I havent played anything outside of Affinity in a very long time (been trying to build Grixis/Esper Gifts for a while) so my perspective on matchups is limited.
You can't even compare Innocent Blood and Baleful Strix as the latter is way more powerful card. I would be fine with Innocent Blood but can't say this for Baleful Strix.
What exactly is Strix breaking? Is a Tier 1 Grixis deck such a problem? I'm sure it would see about as much play as Jeskai currently (~6% of the format), and that might be optimistic. Is this Tier 2 to Tier 1 jump so scary? Seems like it increases diversity across the board, to say nothing of all the Tier 3 or lower decks Strix helps.
Someone please make a case about what DECK Strix breaks. I don't care about how Strix is a broken card in a vacuum or the theoretical discussion of it being a 2-for-1. What DECK does the card break and why?
Then tell me why on earth Grixis Control should be tier 1 when we already have Jeskai Control in that secrion. I don't understand why we suddenly need two control decks in tier 1 and that when both are doing very fine. It would break Grikis Control and that for no reason (like I said it's doing very fine and doesn't need any help).
Baleful Strix gives all UBx decks big help against any deck that tries to do something with creatures and/or play fair Magic.
In what world is Jeskai a tier 1 deck right now? Baleful strix does not break grixis control whatsoever. The card just gives the deck a better aggro matchup. It doesn't fix grixis's horrible matchup to Tron or to burn. I think you don't want grixis control to be tier 1 because it beats jund.
Man look at metagame numbers and you can see that Jeskai control is tier 1 (modern nexus for example). Grixis on the other hand is good tier 2 deck and is doing good enough. Yes, it has bad aggro matchups but every deck has bad matchups and it doesn't need to be free of them.
And yes. I don't like control but what I hate about this even more is that it got AV, it already had Snapcaster Mage, Grixis has crazy good combo with Snapcaster Mage and Kolaghan's Command, now also has Goblin Dark-Dwellers and some blue players still don't have enough. What I want is them to stop complaining and start enjoying Modern which is in a great shape rather than suggesting unbans that make no sense since none deck needs a help really, it's just fine as it is.
Modern Nexus is ran by Kt who is the main mod of this site. If jeskai was tier 1 he would put the deck in tier 1. Jeskai has had a spike in usage but it needs to retain that for awhile to be tier 1. I do agree that it is better than grixis but not by much. I just think it's funny that you are complaining when you are playing what many consider to be the best deck in modern. You play jund which has historically been one of the best decks in modern history and yet you don't want even want control to be a good archtype because grixis gives jund a bad matchup. Your bias blinds you in seeing how powerful card power is. (control needs snap to function in modern, k-command into snap is super slow to say the least which gets wreaked by relic/rip, etc.)
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
The burden of proof here though should be on those arguing FOR the reprint, not against it, when we are talking about a potentially format warping card. Modern has issues, but Strix does not seem like a card that fixes any of them. Dealing with creatures is not and has never been something that Modern control decks have struggled with. What we REALLY need in the format is stuff like Counterspell or Miscalculation, and adding Strix to the format I fear would make WotC more reluctant to print those much-needed answers in the future.
Strix is also a card that makes Control's good MUs better but doesn't help its bad MUs. If we want to make control stronger in Modern, we should print cards that give control more of a chance against Scapeshift, Tron, etc, not by improving its already good matchups which is what Strix would do.
As a Grixis player, I don't want/need another card that's good against Infect and Jund, we already have a plethora of those.
That's not how this works. The people who are ban list whistle blowers have the burden of proof to provide as to how the card is "format warping." I don't see how you play grixis control if you don't think that strix doesn't help our terrible merfolk/small zoo matchup that the deck has. That's literally all the card does. Dimir is TERRIBLE right now as a color type and it needs all the help it can get.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I was mostly arguing against the way he was arguing, while I don't think Strix would hurt Modern much I also don't particularly care if it's printed (as much as I adore UB <3).
I really would like a new Counterspell, although while part of me really wants THE Counterspell, I doubt they'd print it and I think conditional counterspells are also more interesting from a gameplay perspective. Miscalculation for instance, would be a great reprint as far as being a worse Mana Leak while providing more versatility than Mana Leak.
One thing I'd like to know about is how Strix would really impact more Esper/BUG builds, because while I love Grixis, I also love BUG/like Esper and wonder if Strix would help them in any particular way or if, as you put it, it'd just be another card that make's their good MUs better but doesn't help the bad MUs. I can't really say, I havent played anything outside of Affinity in a very long time (been trying to build Grixis/Esper Gifts for a while) so my perspective on matchups is limited.
As for BUG, both BUG Ruse would be playable (it lacks the Ruse value engine and removal what RUG and Bant has) and the BUG Midrange list Fabiano played (basically the good stuff list). As for Esper, it is more difficult to answer it. Esper Mentor will likely not want it while the Delve version will definitely run it.
As for Esper Control, I don't think they want Strix, since it doesn't fit the game plan (which is a huge problem) and it also is slow/can't deal with problematic permanents (especially Lilli and Confi).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
What exactly is Strix breaking? Is a Tier 1 Grixis deck such a problem? I'm sure it would see about as much play as Jeskai currently (~6% of the format), and that might be optimistic. Is this Tier 2 to Tier 1 jump so scary? Seems like it increases diversity across the board, to say nothing of all the Tier 3 or lower decks Strix helps.
Someone please make a case about what DECK Strix breaks. I don't care about how Strix is a broken card in a vacuum or the theoretical discussion of it being a 2-for-1. What DECK does the card break and why?
Then tell me why on earth Grixis Control should be tier 1 when we already have Jeskai Control in that secrion. I don't understand why we suddenly need two control decks in tier 1 and that when both are doing very fine. It would break Grikis Control and that for no reason (like I said it's doing very fine and doesn't need any help).
Baleful Strix gives all UBx decks big help against any deck that tries to do something with creatures and/or play fair Magic.
In what world is Jeskai a tier 1 deck right now? Baleful strix does not break grixis control whatsoever. The card just gives the deck a better aggro matchup. It doesn't fix grixis's horrible matchup to Tron or to burn. I think you don't want grixis control to be tier 1 because it beats jund.
Man look at metagame numbers and you can see that Jeskai control is tier 1 (modern nexus for example). Grixis on the other hand is good tier 2 deck and is doing good enough. Yes, it has bad aggro matchups but every deck has bad matchups and it doesn't need to be free of them.
And yes. I don't like control but what I hate about this even more is that it got AV, it already had Snapcaster Mage, Grixis has crazy good combo with Snapcaster Mage and Kolaghan's Command, now also has Goblin Dark-Dwellers and some blue players still don't have enough. What I want is them to stop complaining and start enjoying Modern which is in a great shape rather than suggesting unbans that make no sense since none deck needs a help really, it's just fine as it is.
Modern Nexus is ran by Kt who is the main mod of this site. If jeskai was tier 1 he would put the deck in tier 1. Jeskai has had a spike in usage but it needs to retain that for awhile to be tier 1. I do agree that it is better than grixis but not by much. I just think it's funny that you are complaining when you are playing what many consider to be the best deck in modern. You play jund which has historically been one of the best decks in modern history and yet you don't want even want control to be a good archtype because grixis gives jund a bad matchup. Your bias blinds you in seeing how powerful card power is. (control needs snap to function in modern, k-command into snap is super slow to say the least which gets wreaked by relic/rip, etc.)
I believe he updates this site's tiers on a schedule while nexus has a more real time reflection. Jeskai is tier 1.
EDIT: He updates the tiers on this site on a monthly basis. The last update was 5/8/2016. The next will be 6/8/2016 and will most likely put Jeskai in Tier 1.
Regarding Strix - even if it doesn't help something like Grixis as much as something like say Counterspell would, is that a good reason to not want it reprinted? I'm ok with taking whatever we can get, even if it's not the MOST helpful thing.
Regarding Strix - even if it doesn't help something like Grixis as much as something like say Counterspell would, is that a good reason to not want it reprinted? I'm ok with taking whatever we can get, even if it's not the MOST helpful thing.
I just feel like every time a powerful blue value card gets introduced into the format, it puts us a step further from getting Counterspells or equivalent.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
Regarding Strix - even if it doesn't help something like Grixis as much as something like say Counterspell would, is that a good reason to not want it reprinted? I'm ok with taking whatever we can get, even if it's not the MOST helpful thing.
I just feel like every time a powerful blue value card gets introduced into the format, it puts us a step further from getting Counterspells or equivalent.
I just don't really see the two as competing - and I don't know that we've ever had a value blue card specifically like strix. Removal, card advantage, pitchable to Thirst for Knowledge, and recurrable with K-Command? That's head and shoulders above most of the things blue has gotten and something I think most of us would be happy to have, counterspell or not. I REALLY don't think Counterspell is ever going to happen unless WOTC changes the way that cards can enter this format - they might print something functionally similar for standard, but I'd put money on straight up counterspell never being in standard again (Strix or not).
Im also fairly convinced strix would further push grixis towards the midrange strategy, which debatably would not run counterspell. Just look st strix in legacy, it is only maindecked in shardless, a pretty cut and dry midrange deck, and is in delver lists, which are clearcut tempo decks. Strix would further push grixis to play proactively, which is the direction i believe WotC wants to see urx decks move
Im also fairly convinced strix would further push grixis towards the midrange strategy, which debatably would not run counterspell. Just look st strix in legacy, it is only maindecked in shardless, a pretty cut and dry midrange deck, and is in delver lists, which are clearcut tempo decks. Strix would further push grixis to play proactively, which is the direction i believe WotC wants to see urx decks move
Strix is in those decks as a defensive measure. Great blocker plus draw a card is absolutely up Control's alley. Shardless packs the deck full of as many 2 for 1 plays as possible, and Strix fits that bill plus buys the deck time. Delver sides it in when the match will go long. It's not a midrange card in and of itself, but it can be used in various shells. Including control.
Old and boring removal? Sounds like the problem is they need to print new and interesting removal. Too bad interesting removal tends to be pretty mediocre.
I think the most interesting reprint dynamic with regards to Strix isn't it's power level in a vacuum within Modern decks, but FZA's thing about it's power level perhaps making new and powerful Countermagic a liability to print. I'm like 90% sure Counterspell isn't going to get a reprint in the modern regime of Modern-Cards-Come-Through-Standard, but would Strix be too powerful in a world of Miscalculations (to continue FZA's example) or other efficient/flexible/powerful counterspells. So to boil it down would Strix create a difficult design space for U to receive better countersuites. If so which do you think is preferable?
Personally my motto is, "If my opponent is having fun then I'm not" so I like Counterspells. However I think that their plans for Standard (and thusly Modern) are more creature centric, so I'd have to presume we'll see Strix assuming they can print it in Standard (totally doable if you create a proper environment for it to exist in.)
As we have the full cycle of shadowmoor/eventide filters, i dont think they would see much play. I use these in edh whenever i can, and the fact that they cant create any combination of their colors can be very awkward. They can make great budget options, but not much more than that
Old and boring removal? Sounds like the problem is they need to print new and interesting removal. Too bad interesting removal tends to be pretty mediocre.
I think the most interesting reprint dynamic with regards to Strix isn't it's power level in a vacuum within Modern decks, but FZA's thing about it's power level perhaps making new and powerful Countermagic a liability to print. I'm like 90% sure Counterspell isn't going to get a reprint in the modern regime of Modern-Cards-Come-Through-Standard, but would Strix be too powerful in a world of Miscalculations (to continue FZA's example) or other efficient/flexible/powerful counterspells. So to boil it down would Strix create a difficult design space for U to receive better countersuites. If so which do you think is preferable?
Personally my motto is, "If my opponent is having fun then I'm not" so I like Counterspells. However I think that their plans for Standard (and thusly Modern) are more creature centric, so I'd have to presume we'll see Strix assuming they can print it in Standard (totally doable if you create a proper environment for it to exist in.)
The thing is counterspells balance the game in a way that makes formats a lot more interesting. I never got this whole thing about counters being "unfun", I mean even if you're one of those people who has it out for control decks, which is getting your creature countered somehow less fun than getting it Doom Bladed or whatever? Counterspells add a very enjoyable element to magic. It would be a shame to me if Strix and similar cards kept getting printed and good counters didn't; then we'd get to the point where blue decks are trying to play the same sort of midrange game as Jund is, and that just makes the format more homogeneous and boring. Counters are also much better against uninteractive combo and ramp decks, which is really where blue decks in Modern need help. Like I said, we already have tons of good answers to creatures, and Strix really is just a 2-for-1 removal spell most of the time.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
I think what people often find unfun about Countermagic isn't just that they dont get to play with their creature, but the psychological effect of, "can I play this cool thing? What if he counters it? I reaaaallly want to play it, but if it gets countered..." I don't really know why thats different from removal, maybe its the fact that for a tiny amount of time your creature was actually on the board? Either way it seems like the sentiment "counters aren't fun" is a pretty established thing and I imagine it's going to be a rare occurrence where we see decent countermagic printed, be it new or a reprint.
As much as I love counterspells (and I do, believe me, my first real deck was UB Fae ) it seems like WotC is aiming for a more creature centric game, and considering we're going to be getting our cards from Standard for the foreseeable future I don't hold high ups for more potent countermagic. I expect a world of continuing the tradition of the Thragtusk/Siege Rhino value creature. I hope I'm wrong, I'd like to play a deck with a strong suite of countermagic and I'd REALLY love to play some counter-centric draw-go control or tempo. Seems like decks are going to be more in the Jund-y value-y midrange-y realm to me though.
In any case some counterspells I'd personally like to see, Circular Logic (I would love a control deck that required GY resource management with Delve and stuff) Forbid Miscalculation Thwart
These embody regimes of countermagic that I like archetypically, Circular Logic requires resource management and is vulnerable to hate, Forbid is a costly recursive hard counter thats negative value, Miscalculation is a flexible generally solid counterspell, and Thwart is a "free" counterspell, even if weak. (maybe Daze is a better example of this though.)
I'm not sure what kind of counterspell is best for Modern, I'm so-so on whether or not I'd want to see Daze reprinted for Modern, I'm wary of "free" counterspells like Daze that can occur so early, but maybe that kind of early counterspell is what Modern countermagic needs to look like? Theres always just Counterspell plain 'ol hard counters, but I doubt they're going to print straight up hard counters that are Modern quality (though I think that Counterspell is of Modern powerlevel, definitely not game breaking), and conditonal countermagic is, to me, more appealing anyways with regards to the way it can influence deck building.
I haven't played anything other than Affinity for a long while so my perspective is skewed, but these are my views for whatever they're worth with regards to counterspells within Modern.
I think what people often find unfun about Countermagic isn't just that they dont get to play with their creature, but the psychological effect of, "can I play this cool thing? What if he counters it? I reaaaallly want to play it, but if it gets countered..." I don't really know why thats different from removal, maybe its the fact that for a tiny amount of time your creature was actually on the board? Either way it seems like the sentiment "counters aren't fun" is a pretty established thing and I imagine it's going to be a rare occurrence where we see decent countermagic printed, be it new or a reprint.
~other good written stuff~
The reason, why Countespells are better than a universal 2 mana removal spell (like Decay which has no target limitation) is, that the permanents, cannot generate any value. Lets say you are countering a Huntmaster, opponent gets nothing out of it. If you Doomblade him however, he gains a 2/2 token and 2 life. You can always activate a Planeswalker before you are able to kill it, you can always use a triggered or activated ability (when it is not a creature) when the spell resolves.
This is the reason, why Counterspell is a better card than Removal and this is also the reason why Wizard pushed out Counterspells of the 2 Mana territory while speeding (and at the same time slowing) the game up, which makes the 3 Mana counterspells so much worse than the 2 mana ones.
There is a reason, why we see close to 0 3 mana counter spells in Modern, even though, there are some great ones out there (Voidslime says hi) but mostly 1 and 2 Mana ones (Snare/Pierce/Dispel, Leak/Remand/Negate/Logic Knot and Condescend) and only in rare cases 3+ mana counter spells (Cryptic and the X costed one are the only exclusion for obvious reasons).
Hence, while I would love to have a powerful catch-all answer for U Control mages, I doubt, that it will ever get printed. Instead, something like the counters you mentioned are by far more realistic.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: I would love to be able to play UG Madness in modern <3
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
you're missing the big downside to a counterspell--doom blade works against tarmogoyf if you're on the draw, while counterspell does not. More generally, removal spells work ALL the time, counterspells only work if you HAVE them AND MANA available WHEN your opponent casts a spell. The inherent strength of counterspells is that they generate tempo (opponent wasted mana and a turn for no value, you gained that as tempo towards a stronger late game or towards preserving your fast clock) while being terrible if you can't abuse the tempo (don't have a stronger late game/threat on board). Removal trades this tempo advantage for relevance--it's ALWAYS good to draw removal spells since they ALWAYS work, while counterspells off the top do nothing against a delver punching you in the face.
Final point: Removal lets YOU dictate the pace of the game. Counterspells let YOUR OPPONENT dictate the pace of the game. The nature of countermagic is such that it only comes into play when your opponent decides to pick a fight, which means it's super vulnerable to things like discard or sideboarded hate (Thrun, the last troll says hi), while removal can be fired off at your convenience. Anyone who plays legacy extensively and has experience playing with/around daze, force of will, flusterstorm, spell pierce, and possibly even counterspell understands that having countermagic doesn't mean you're in control of the game, and it doesn't let you dominate--because if you're holding up all that countermagic, you can't do anything proactive to try and WIN the game. In formats like modern where the mana base hurts a ton to start with, it doesn't take all that much pressure beyond what the countermagic shields can cover before you just lose the game.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Circular Logic, Forbid (Life from the Loam!) and Miscalculation would be great in the format but I think we will end up with is a card similar (probably CMC 3 or less) to what everyone thoughtHorribly Awry was before they read it a second time and where just horrible disappointed. Another option would a be reprint of Prohibit.
I generally like the idea of these kinds of cards because they aren't dead in the late game like Mana Leak.
Also, I detest the idea of Counterspell being overpowered in Modern. I understand that we will probably never get it because of standard but in a format with Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize, the idea of a 2 mana counterspell being in someway too powerful is ridiculous.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
No, no, I exactly know how the pace of the game interacts with both Removal and Counters. I just made a statement, why a two mana counter spell would be better than a two mana removal spell (which cannot kill everything since there is non existing, which can kill everything). Furthermore, you will have a sad time with your Terminates and co when the opponent plays a Enchantment/Artifact/Plainswalker and just laughs at you (or just a spell with multiple bodies). Here, removal is again worse. Yes, you can "dictate" the game with Removal (cause you can play first Threats than kill the opp stuff), but especially the free counter spells you mentioned turns this 180° around, cause suddenly you can play Threads AND counters in the same turn. That is why Delver (especially Canadian Thresh and Grixis Delver) are such a good decks, they can abuse the full tempo swings generate by their counter spells (especially Daze and FoW).
However, Counterspell is a different story. Counterspell is not free, hence you either play a Turn 1 thread (or Vial) and than keep Counterspell up or you are playing a Flash game plan with Clique/Venser/Teferie/Resto. Miracles can do this, because every finisher (but Jace, but he is more of a value engine than a finisher) has Flash, BS/Top into Entreat or Clique/Venser in the legendary builds. Sure, there are Mentor builds out there, but this is rather because of the raw power of Mentor than the power of counterspell (and those lists don't tend to play the 1/2 off Counterspells).
So you can say something: A universal 2 Mana counterspell is better than existing 2 mana removal spell as long as you can use the generate tempo. This can be either to get into the lategame (Control decks) or just to close the game out (most of the Times tempo decks). This is especially true for Control decks, where you play high impact late game cards (Sphinx's Rev, Scapeshift, Elspeth 3.0, Giddeon *insert random high maker here*).
Note: I did not include a very important point, manlands. Counterspell has a sad time vs them.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Btw. I'm playing Legacy (Tin Fins, Storm, Spanish Inquisition, Nic Fit, RUG Delver) so I kinda know the role and pace assessment you mentioned ^^
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I want Cabal Therapy in Modern. Card is so much fun.
Yes. I love playing combo dredge myself. Unfortunately, dredge.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
What are you talking about? Strix promotes playing more removal effects to kill it. (promotes cards like disfigure/darkblast) Griselbrand definitely CARES about strix (it has flying). Tron already dismantles grixis. Strix helps against aggro and aggro only... Strix gives us: Grixis at tier 1, esper midrange decks being good, boosts tezzerator decks, etc.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Even if Strix does get reprinted Grixis will still have bad matchups (Tron, for instance), as people have said. Furthermore you play a deck that is very similar to that, a la Jund.
You need to defend why Grixis doing "good enough" is a reason to not introduce Baleful Strix into Modern. As of yet you haven't really given an argument other than, "it would be broken because its too value (in a vacuum)" or, "Why does it NEED to be printed? Why do these decks NEED to be improved?" But its not about anything NEEDING to happen, Grixis doesn't NEED to be Tier 1, but what does it hurt? Why is having Tier 1 Grixis unhealthy for Modern? What does it break? The argument that having more than one Tier 1 control deck in Modern doesn't really hold without more explanation because there are several Tier 1 aggro and midrange decks. You need to argue why Baleful Strix is unhealthy for Modern that doesn't come from a place of, "Well I don't like control so its unhealthy."
I should also mention half of the cards you mentioned aren't even blue cards. (I take a rough estimation of your point though, cards that enable blue to be played)
I think we can all agree that Modern is great, but "great" isn't perfect, and even if we can never achieve "perfect" it doesn't hurt to keep trying to make it better and better.
Strix is also a card that makes Control's good MUs better but doesn't help its bad MUs. If we want to make control stronger in Modern, we should print cards that give control more of a chance against Scapeshift, Tron, etc, not by improving its already good matchups which is what Strix would do.
As a Grixis player, I don't want/need another card that's good against Infect and Jund, we already have a plethora of those.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
I really would like a new Counterspell, although while part of me really wants THE Counterspell, I doubt they'd print it and I think conditional counterspells are also more interesting from a gameplay perspective. Miscalculation for instance, would be a great reprint as far as being a worse Mana Leak while providing more versatility than Mana Leak.
One thing I'd like to know about is how Strix would really impact more Esper/BUG builds, because while I love Grixis, I also love BUG/like Esper and wonder if Strix would help them in any particular way or if, as you put it, it'd just be another card that make's their good MUs better but doesn't help the bad MUs. I can't really say, I havent played anything outside of Affinity in a very long time (been trying to build Grixis/Esper Gifts for a while) so my perspective on matchups is limited.
Modern Nexus is ran by Kt who is the main mod of this site. If jeskai was tier 1 he would put the deck in tier 1. Jeskai has had a spike in usage but it needs to retain that for awhile to be tier 1. I do agree that it is better than grixis but not by much. I just think it's funny that you are complaining when you are playing what many consider to be the best deck in modern. You play jund which has historically been one of the best decks in modern history and yet you don't want even want control to be a good archtype because grixis gives jund a bad matchup. Your bias blinds you in seeing how powerful card power is. (control needs snap to function in modern, k-command into snap is super slow to say the least which gets wreaked by relic/rip, etc.)
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
That's not how this works. The people who are ban list whistle blowers have the burden of proof to provide as to how the card is "format warping." I don't see how you play grixis control if you don't think that strix doesn't help our terrible merfolk/small zoo matchup that the deck has. That's literally all the card does. Dimir is TERRIBLE right now as a color type and it needs all the help it can get.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
As for BUG, both BUG Ruse would be playable (it lacks the Ruse value engine and removal what RUG and Bant has) and the BUG Midrange list Fabiano played (basically the good stuff list). As for Esper, it is more difficult to answer it. Esper Mentor will likely not want it while the Delve version will definitely run it.
As for Esper Control, I don't think they want Strix, since it doesn't fit the game plan (which is a huge problem) and it also is slow/can't deal with problematic permanents (especially Lilli and Confi).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
EDIT: He updates the tiers on this site on a monthly basis. The last update was 5/8/2016. The next will be 6/8/2016 and will most likely put Jeskai in Tier 1.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I just feel like every time a powerful blue value card gets introduced into the format, it puts us a step further from getting Counterspells or equivalent.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
I just don't really see the two as competing - and I don't know that we've ever had a value blue card specifically like strix. Removal, card advantage, pitchable to Thirst for Knowledge, and recurrable with K-Command? That's head and shoulders above most of the things blue has gotten and something I think most of us would be happy to have, counterspell or not. I REALLY don't think Counterspell is ever going to happen unless WOTC changes the way that cards can enter this format - they might print something functionally similar for standard, but I'd put money on straight up counterspell never being in standard again (Strix or not).
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I think the most interesting reprint dynamic with regards to Strix isn't it's power level in a vacuum within Modern decks, but FZA's thing about it's power level perhaps making new and powerful Countermagic a liability to print. I'm like 90% sure Counterspell isn't going to get a reprint in the modern regime of Modern-Cards-Come-Through-Standard, but would Strix be too powerful in a world of Miscalculations (to continue FZA's example) or other efficient/flexible/powerful counterspells. So to boil it down would Strix create a difficult design space for U to receive better countersuites. If so which do you think is preferable?
Personally my motto is, "If my opponent is having fun then I'm not" so I like Counterspells. However I think that their plans for Standard (and thusly Modern) are more creature centric, so I'd have to presume we'll see Strix assuming they can print it in Standard (totally doable if you create a proper environment for it to exist in.)
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
The thing is counterspells balance the game in a way that makes formats a lot more interesting. I never got this whole thing about counters being "unfun", I mean even if you're one of those people who has it out for control decks, which is getting your creature countered somehow less fun than getting it Doom Bladed or whatever? Counterspells add a very enjoyable element to magic. It would be a shame to me if Strix and similar cards kept getting printed and good counters didn't; then we'd get to the point where blue decks are trying to play the same sort of midrange game as Jund is, and that just makes the format more homogeneous and boring. Counters are also much better against uninteractive combo and ramp decks, which is really where blue decks in Modern need help. Like I said, we already have tons of good answers to creatures, and Strix really is just a 2-for-1 removal spell most of the time.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
As much as I love counterspells (and I do, believe me, my first real deck was UB Fae ) it seems like WotC is aiming for a more creature centric game, and considering we're going to be getting our cards from Standard for the foreseeable future I don't hold high ups for more potent countermagic. I expect a world of continuing the tradition of the Thragtusk/Siege Rhino value creature. I hope I'm wrong, I'd like to play a deck with a strong suite of countermagic and I'd REALLY love to play some counter-centric draw-go control or tempo. Seems like decks are going to be more in the Jund-y value-y midrange-y realm to me though.
In any case some counterspells I'd personally like to see,
Circular Logic (I would love a control deck that required GY resource management with Delve and stuff)
Forbid
Miscalculation
Thwart
These embody regimes of countermagic that I like archetypically, Circular Logic requires resource management and is vulnerable to hate, Forbid is a costly recursive hard counter thats negative value, Miscalculation is a flexible generally solid counterspell, and Thwart is a "free" counterspell, even if weak. (maybe Daze is a better example of this though.)
I'm not sure what kind of counterspell is best for Modern, I'm so-so on whether or not I'd want to see Daze reprinted for Modern, I'm wary of "free" counterspells like Daze that can occur so early, but maybe that kind of early counterspell is what Modern countermagic needs to look like? Theres always just Counterspell plain 'ol hard counters, but I doubt they're going to print straight up hard counters that are Modern quality (though I think that Counterspell is of Modern powerlevel, definitely not game breaking), and conditonal countermagic is, to me, more appealing anyways with regards to the way it can influence deck building.
I haven't played anything other than Affinity for a long while so my perspective is skewed, but these are my views for whatever they're worth with regards to counterspells within Modern.
The reason, why Countespells are better than a universal 2 mana removal spell (like Decay which has no target limitation) is, that the permanents, cannot generate any value. Lets say you are countering a Huntmaster, opponent gets nothing out of it. If you Doomblade him however, he gains a 2/2 token and 2 life. You can always activate a Planeswalker before you are able to kill it, you can always use a triggered or activated ability (when it is not a creature) when the spell resolves.
This is the reason, why Counterspell is a better card than Removal and this is also the reason why Wizard pushed out Counterspells of the 2 Mana territory while speeding (and at the same time slowing) the game up, which makes the 3 Mana counterspells so much worse than the 2 mana ones.
There is a reason, why we see close to 0 3 mana counter spells in Modern, even though, there are some great ones out there (Voidslime says hi) but mostly 1 and 2 Mana ones (Snare/Pierce/Dispel, Leak/Remand/Negate/Logic Knot and Condescend) and only in rare cases 3+ mana counter spells (Cryptic and the X costed one are the only exclusion for obvious reasons).
Hence, while I would love to have a powerful catch-all answer for U Control mages, I doubt, that it will ever get printed. Instead, something like the counters you mentioned are by far more realistic.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: I would love to be able to play UG Madness in modern <3
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Final point: Removal lets YOU dictate the pace of the game. Counterspells let YOUR OPPONENT dictate the pace of the game. The nature of countermagic is such that it only comes into play when your opponent decides to pick a fight, which means it's super vulnerable to things like discard or sideboarded hate (Thrun, the last troll says hi), while removal can be fired off at your convenience. Anyone who plays legacy extensively and has experience playing with/around daze, force of will, flusterstorm, spell pierce, and possibly even counterspell understands that having countermagic doesn't mean you're in control of the game, and it doesn't let you dominate--because if you're holding up all that countermagic, you can't do anything proactive to try and WIN the game. In formats like modern where the mana base hurts a ton to start with, it doesn't take all that much pressure beyond what the countermagic shields can cover before you just lose the game.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I generally like the idea of these kinds of cards because they aren't dead in the late game like Mana Leak.
Also, I detest the idea of Counterspell being overpowered in Modern. I understand that we will probably never get it because of standard but in a format with Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize, the idea of a 2 mana counterspell being in someway too powerful is ridiculous.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
However, Counterspell is a different story. Counterspell is not free, hence you either play a Turn 1 thread (or Vial) and than keep Counterspell up or you are playing a Flash game plan with Clique/Venser/Teferie/Resto. Miracles can do this, because every finisher (but Jace, but he is more of a value engine than a finisher) has Flash, BS/Top into Entreat or Clique/Venser in the legendary builds. Sure, there are Mentor builds out there, but this is rather because of the raw power of Mentor than the power of counterspell (and those lists don't tend to play the 1/2 off Counterspells).
So you can say something: A universal 2 Mana counterspell is better than existing 2 mana removal spell as long as you can use the generate tempo. This can be either to get into the lategame (Control decks) or just to close the game out (most of the Times tempo decks). This is especially true for Control decks, where you play high impact late game cards (Sphinx's Rev, Scapeshift, Elspeth 3.0, Giddeon *insert random high maker here*).
Note: I did not include a very important point, manlands. Counterspell has a sad time vs them.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Btw. I'm playing Legacy (Tin Fins, Storm, Spanish Inquisition, Nic Fit, RUG Delver) so I kinda know the role and pace assessment you mentioned ^^
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Yes. I love playing combo dredge myself. Unfortunately, dredge.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Yeah, pre SOI it would have been no problem but now, dunno, it will be a serious problem (at least in my opinion).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)