I think it would definitely pressure the format to be faster and decks would have to stop relying on 3+ drops (adios Siege Rhino). It would definitely punish 3+ colours greedy manabases too.
I don't know if you've played against GW hatebears with leonin arbiter and ghost quarter, but it puts a lot of pressure on the mana and I think wasteland in modern may apply the same pressure as this deck. Would definitely be fun, though I don't think wizard would ever allow wasteland to be modern legal (and wasteland would most likely never be reprinted in a standard legal set. Maybe one with very few nonbasics and monocolor decks?).
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MTGO Username: Tajicyolo
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show Duel Commander:Kess High Tide Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
I keep thinking of cards like Natural Order which has managed to go up in value. There are many cards like this you would like them to reprint so the price will go down again. Of course they probably won't reprint a card like Natural Order. Some are suggesting vindicate should be reprinted and I don't see why it would be so important to have it reprinted unless it really goes up in value.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Reprint Vindicate and Abzan will get even stronger. We usually have some land destruction in the side, but with vindicate we would have a perfect removal suite for any threat in the format.
I like vindicate, but it is too much for modern at this point in time.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Reprint Vindicate and Abzan will get even stronger. We usually have some land destruction in the side, but with vindicate we would have a perfect removal suite for any threat in the format.
I like vindicate, but it is too much for modern at this point in time.
Vindicate is up there with Sulfuric Vortex for me. It just powers up a strategy that needs absolutely no help at the moment. I want to see cards in Modern that either empower lagging strategies or create new ones altogether. If we want cards from Invasion, let's talk about the dragon charms. All of them (especially Dromar's Charm could see Modern play and none of them push tier 1 strategies over the top.
Reprint Vindicate and Abzan will get even stronger. We usually have some land destruction in the side, but with vindicate we would have a perfect removal suite for any threat in the format.
I like vindicate, but it is too much for modern at this point in time.
Vindicate is up there with Sulfuric Vortex for me. It just powers up a strategy that needs absolutely no help at the moment. I want to see cards in Modern that either empower lagging strategies or create new ones altogether. If we want cards from Invasion, let's talk about the dragon charms. All of them (especially Dromar's Charm could see Modern play and none of them push tier 1 strategies over the top.
I have some curiosity regarding old madness cards. Wild Mongrel, Basking Rootwalla, Circular logic, Aquamoeba. They could spawn a cool deck with Vengevine.
They could at least "re"print a fixed version of Vindicate, since land destruction is not welcome. Something like Maelstrom Pulse in power level.
Sorcery speed 3 mana LD isn't an issue. Stone Rain, Molten Rain, Fulminator Mage, and Rain of Tears are all legal and LD isn't a thing. All of the cards for the old UR Magnivore LD decks are in modern and its not a thing. At which point, Pulse is strictly better for BGx whereas Vindicate could theoretically promote Esper or BW control strategies.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Sorcery speed 3 mana LD isn't an issue. Stone Rain, Molten Rain, Fulminator Mage, and Rain of Tears are all legal and LD isn't a thing. All of the cards for the old UR Magnivore LD decks are in modern and its not a thing. At which point, Pulse is strictly better for BGx whereas Vindicate could theoretically promote Esper or BW control strategies.
There is still a huge difference between a Sorcery Vindicate and Pulse, which is that ability to destroy lands. The fact that it destroys lands means it is never a dead card, especially in a meta filled to the brim with 3 color decks. It is exactly what Junk needs to cement its dominance of the Midrange archetype, and anything else it could do (enable Esper control, for example) would be nothing noteable compared to that fact.
Now, a version that can't target lands (Utter End at Sorcery speed for only 3 mana) I think would be fine, since its basically trading Pulse's ability to get 2 for 1s for the ability to exile the target. That would be ok. Not great, but enough to move some power out of BG and into BW, which is definitely a good thing for the format.
I've advocated Vindicate in the past, at present I do not because Abzan is oppressively good at the moment.
I'll change back to advocating Vindicate again when metagame shifts, future printings and/or future banlist changes end the dominance of Abzan. Great card, wrong time to introduce it.
They could at least "re"print a fixed version of Vindicate, since land destruction is not welcome. Something like Maelstrom Pulse in power level.
Sorcery speed 3 mana LD isn't an issue. Stone Rain, Molten Rain, Fulminator Mage, and Rain of Tears are all legal and LD isn't a thing. All of the cards for the old UR Magnivore LD decks are in modern and its not a thing.
Two issues here. First, that's an argument for Modern, not Standard, which is what's important here. Those cards you just listed? Look at when they were last in Standard. The most recent one to be in Standard was Rain of Tears, in 10th Edition. That was almost 8 years ago. Barring a change in policy, they obviously have no interest in putting land destruction at anything below 4 mana, let alone what's arguably the best 3-mana land destruction spell ever printed.
But this argument is problematic in terms of Modern also. Yes, land destruction isn't much of a thing despite those cards being legal. Thing is, those cards only destroy lands. They do nothing to take out threats on the board, except for maybe Fulminator Mage which I suppose can trade with some creatures. Vindicate kills off threats when they're around and stops threats from getting cast by destroying lands when threats aren't available.
At which point, Pulse is strictly better for BGx whereas Vindicate could theoretically promote Esper or BW control strategies.
Maelstrom Pulse is not strictly better for BGx than Vindicate. The ability to take out everything with the same name matters substantially less than the ability to take out lands. Also, Vindicate is about 10 times more relevant than Maelstrom Pulse is against Tron, a deck that BGx would be very happy to shore up its matchup with.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I keep going back to Divert. It would be a wonderful card against Burn, and it wouldn't drastically power up any existing deck. Misdirection could also be great here, but Wizards is very weary of free spells.
Goblin Piledriver could only help the format by powering up Goblins.
Moment's Peace/Respite could be nice, and would push Turbo Fog/Control decks while giving Twin one more hurdle to overcome.
Cursed Totem could only help. Even if it doesn't offer enough against Twin, it is a great police card to have around.
Absorb and Undermine. Since they are mentioned so often, even though I don't think they would see that much play, and they only add to the format.
Retribution of the Meek. This is a stretch, but it's something that can hurt Junk...maybe...probably not.
Meekstone. Another card that could possibly hurt Junk, but with some other unnecessary causalities such as Zoo.
Chill/Warmth. Sorry burn players, but your gameplan has always been "hope they don't pack to much sideboard hate". This just gives people more options.
Buried Alive. Gives Dredgevine decks some extra fuel.
It's Tier 2, but hardly "nonexistent." And that doesn't change the fact that it helps Junk shore up a trickier matchup considerably. It's also no slouch against Affinity due to their manlands.
Maelstrom Pulse hitting all of the Lingering Souls tokens is currently better than Vindicate.
No, it really isn't. Vindicate kills threats when they're around and destroys lands when they're not. Land destruction is still very powerful because of its ability to get rid of your opponents' access to particular colors, stall them, or destroy utility lands. You've claimed that "but land destruction isn't much of a thing even with all these land destruction cards!" Yeah, because cards that can only destroy lands can't do a thing to get rid of threats, but something like Vindicate nicely takes out lands when relevant while also taking out threats when relevant. That's useful far more often than Maelstrom Pulse's ability.
Even if you consider Tron "non-existent" there's more decks that have relevant land targets than decks that are running Lingering Souls.
Yep. It is. Unfortunately, because Standard was the barrier to entry into Modern, the power level just isn't there for our format. This could be part of an argument for either another set to funnel cards to Modern, or for a shift in Standard's power level generally.
I keep going back to Divert. It would be a wonderful card against Burn, and it wouldn't drastically power up any existing deck. Misdirection could also be great here, but Wizards is very weary of free spells.
Goblin Piledriver could only help the format by powering up Goblins.
Moment's Peace/Respite could be nice, and would push Turbo Fog/Control decks while giving Twin one more hurdle to overcome.
Cursed Totem could only help. Even if it doesn't offer enough against Twin, it is a great police card to have around.
Absorb and Undermine. Since they are mentioned so often, even though I don't think they would see that much play, and they only add to the format.
Retribution of the Meek. This is a stretch, but it's something that can hurt Junk...maybe...probably not.
Meekstone. Another card that could possibly hurt Junk, but with some other unnecessary causalities such as Zoo.
Chill/Warmth. Sorry burn players, but your gameplan has always been "hope they don't pack to much sideboard hate". This just gives people more options.
Buried Alive. Gives Dredgevine decks some extra fuel.
I'm a big fan of most of those. I'm of the opinion that it's hard to have too many police cards in a format.
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I don't know if you've played against GW hatebears with leonin arbiter and ghost quarter, but it puts a lot of pressure on the mana and I think wasteland in modern may apply the same pressure as this deck. Would definitely be fun, though I don't think wizard would ever allow wasteland to be modern legal (and wasteland would most likely never be reprinted in a standard legal set. Maybe one with very few nonbasics and monocolor decks?).
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
I like vindicate, but it is too much for modern at this point in time.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Vindicate is up there with Sulfuric Vortex for me. It just powers up a strategy that needs absolutely no help at the moment. I want to see cards in Modern that either empower lagging strategies or create new ones altogether. If we want cards from Invasion, let's talk about the dragon charms. All of them (especially Dromar's Charm could see Modern play and none of them push tier 1 strategies over the top.
Not all of the dragon charms. Darigaaz's Charm is still terrible (especially when compared to Jund Charm) and Treva's Charm is almost always worse than Bant Charm. The rest would be sweet though
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Sorcery speed 3 mana LD isn't an issue. Stone Rain, Molten Rain, Fulminator Mage, and Rain of Tears are all legal and LD isn't a thing. All of the cards for the old UR Magnivore LD decks are in modern and its not a thing. At which point, Pulse is strictly better for BGx whereas Vindicate could theoretically promote Esper or BW control strategies.
There is still a huge difference between a Sorcery Vindicate and Pulse, which is that ability to destroy lands. The fact that it destroys lands means it is never a dead card, especially in a meta filled to the brim with 3 color decks. It is exactly what Junk needs to cement its dominance of the Midrange archetype, and anything else it could do (enable Esper control, for example) would be nothing noteable compared to that fact.
Now, a version that can't target lands (Utter End at Sorcery speed for only 3 mana) I think would be fine, since its basically trading Pulse's ability to get 2 for 1s for the ability to exile the target. That would be ok. Not great, but enough to move some power out of BG and into BW, which is definitely a good thing for the format.
I'll change back to advocating Vindicate again when metagame shifts, future printings and/or future banlist changes end the dominance of Abzan. Great card, wrong time to introduce it.
But this argument is problematic in terms of Modern also. Yes, land destruction isn't much of a thing despite those cards being legal. Thing is, those cards only destroy lands. They do nothing to take out threats on the board, except for maybe Fulminator Mage which I suppose can trade with some creatures. Vindicate kills off threats when they're around and stops threats from getting cast by destroying lands when threats aren't available.
Maelstrom Pulse is not strictly better for BGx than Vindicate. The ability to take out everything with the same name matters substantially less than the ability to take out lands. Also, Vindicate is about 10 times more relevant than Maelstrom Pulse is against Tron, a deck that BGx would be very happy to shore up its matchup with.
Isn't that Utter End?
Goblin Piledriver could only help the format by powering up Goblins.
Moment's Peace/Respite could be nice, and would push Turbo Fog/Control decks while giving Twin one more hurdle to overcome.
Cursed Totem could only help. Even if it doesn't offer enough against Twin, it is a great police card to have around.
Innocent Blood. I think everybody wants this one back.
Absorb and Undermine. Since they are mentioned so often, even though I don't think they would see that much play, and they only add to the format.
Retribution of the Meek. This is a stretch, but it's something that can hurt Junk...maybe...probably not.
Meekstone. Another card that could possibly hurt Junk, but with some other unnecessary causalities such as Zoo.
Chill/Warmth. Sorry burn players, but your gameplan has always been "hope they don't pack to much sideboard hate". This just gives people more options.
Buried Alive. Gives Dredgevine decks some extra fuel.
PucaTrade Invite. Sign up and enjoy the first 500 points ($5) free!
No, it really isn't. Vindicate kills threats when they're around and destroys lands when they're not. Land destruction is still very powerful because of its ability to get rid of your opponents' access to particular colors, stall them, or destroy utility lands. You've claimed that "but land destruction isn't much of a thing even with all these land destruction cards!" Yeah, because cards that can only destroy lands can't do a thing to get rid of threats, but something like Vindicate nicely takes out lands when relevant while also taking out threats when relevant. That's useful far more often than Maelstrom Pulse's ability.
Even if you consider Tron "non-existent" there's more decks that have relevant land targets than decks that are running Lingering Souls.
Yep. It is. Unfortunately, because Standard was the barrier to entry into Modern, the power level just isn't there for our format. This could be part of an argument for either another set to funnel cards to Modern, or for a shift in Standard's power level generally.
I'm a big fan of most of those. I'm of the opinion that it's hard to have too many police cards in a format.
I'll give them credit for trying, though.
No.. Utter end is the degenerated version of Vindicate.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Glare of Subdual?
Innocent Blood
Goblins (Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Warchief,...)
Madness cards and enablers (Basking Rootwalla, Circular Logic, Wild Mongrel....)
Dismiss
Divert
Prohibit
Absorb and Undermine
Flametongue Kavu
Psychatog
Opt
Wild Growth
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Dack Fayden
Spiritmonger
Prophetic Bolt (probably to good for twin and co)
Capsize
Goblin Bombardment
Enchantress's Presence
Accumulated Knowledge (a "fair" draw spell)
Fact or Fiction (may be to good, but Control needs something like this, if AV stays on the Bannlist)
And what I want:
Riptide Laboratory (probably to good, since SCM)
Exploration
Cabal Therapy (just love this card, and I know it is probably to good)
Chain of Plasma cylce
Astral Slide
Lightning Rift
Eternal Dragon
Cycling Lands
Random Cyclers from Onslaught
I have several other wish cards too, but those are highly unlikely to get a reprint (something like Smokestack, Humility, Parallax Wave and co)
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)