I agree modern needs counterspell, or an unbanning of some kind. But my point was that while a reprint of counterspell is needed for modern, we're more likeliy to get a new spell along the lines of "UB: counter target spell cmc 3 or less, can't be countered" or even some kind of UU: counter target spell cmc 3 or less than we are to see an actual counterspell reprint--Situational counterspells that have strong failings, like not hitting birthing pod. Evidence: Look at all the cmc two spells that are played in modern, and look at the conditional nature on them. We don't get a straight up murder at cmc 2. It doesn't happen. Same thing I think for countermagic, which is why we won't get counterspell, much as we need it.
Sure as hell not me. Enough of the relevant threats and combo pieces in the format are cheap enough that abrupt counterspell would never truly be a dead card in a game, just bad in certain matchups--but if it's live in a given matchup, it is live ALL GAME. If they gave this to me in the spoilers, I'd preorder a foil Japanese playset ASAP and be testing to decide if it was a 3 of or a 4 of in esper control. Not to mention checking to see if it was legacy relevant as well.
I think the only MU where it would be actively bad is Tron, and even then there legal targets in plenty, those targets are just things that you don't want to be countering. As opposed to countering the things that actually matter in Tron like Karn, Engine and such.
A deck like Twin (where half of their combo can't be hit by this) or Pod (where their primary value engine is immune and can run out things in an uncounterable manner) still has the majority of the deck be legal targets for the spell. Seriously, this card can counter at least 75% of the spells that see serious Modern play, even though it does have some critical blind spots.
That fits my theory that it is Standard that gets in the way of them printing it for Modern.
Perhaps we need to wait for them to have a relatively high powered standard. Maybe a world where the practice of wizardry is highly developed and there is often magical conflicts and wars between wizard groups and stuff, that could have a high focus on reliably low cmc spells, including lots of low CMC removal, and a sub-theme of wizard tribal. And maybe an idea of 'ambush', where the only way to effectively fight wizards is to surprise them, so creatures get a lot of ETB effects, and many would have flash or haste, while a lot of others might be 'resilient to magic' in the form of hexproof or shroud, and various wizards would develop spells designed to get around enemy counter-magic, so there would be a decent number of spells and creatures that are in-lore summons that are counter-proof or counter-resistant, along the lines of Terra Stomper, Savage Summoning, Volcanic Fallout and Pearl Lake Ancient.
They could then surround that block with some other relatively high, but not quite as high, powered blocks, to ease the way in and out of it. The trick would be making sure it isn't so overpowered that it starts breaking Modern, or causes standard to get weird, such as only control being good in that Standard.
When control had Mana Leak, JTMS, Gideon Jura, Wall of Omens, Ponder, Preordain, Path to Exile, Condemn, Day of Judgment etc. etc. in standard it wasn't dominant - Jund was. They can make powerful control cards, and not have it be a dominant force in standard...it just means cards like Sprouting Thrinax, Bloodbraid Elf, Putrid Leech, Blightning, Inquisition of Kozilek, Bolt, etc. are in the same standard
Hell, even RDW during AL-ZEN was extremely good, as was RB Vamps. There's no reason we can't get good control cards through Standard...it's just that WoTC has been on a power decline in conjunction with a let's hate control because....we made a stupid mistake with SFM/Batterskull/Sword and thus we think Mana Leak and Jace is too powerful because Caw-blade, :>
Apples to Oranges. That's two-color, and in the realm of abrupt decay, proposed Abrupt counter, lightning helix, golgari charm, izzet charm type power level. Adding a second color changes things, and even then R&D members have written in the past that terminate may have been a mistake despite seeing almost no play in modern.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Apples to Oranges. That's two-color, and in the realm of abrupt decay, proposed Abrupt counter, lightning helix, golgari charm, izzet charm type power level. Adding a second color changes things, and even then R&D members have written in the past that terminate may have been a mistake despite seeing almost no play in modern.
How was Terminate a mistake and where is this article? Terminate has been around for a LONG time. If you're going to say Terminate is mostly OK because it's 2 color, I'll take my UW or UB functional reprint of Counterspell now, thanks. My point was, that counterspell being UU actually is a significant cost. It won't see play in decks like Delver because Spell Pierce is generally much better and much easier to cast. The same goes for Blue Moon since UU is quite restrictive when you're also playing Blood Moon MB. I'd almost wager dollars to donuts that UU would be a more restrictive cost than UW or UB.
I fail to see how a 2 mana counter is 'too powerful' in a world where most decks have average CMC's of ~ 2.5. It would also make playing cards like Lightning Helix alongside Counterspell quite dicey (as well as make LD against control even better...). I think it would be a great addition to the format and would further differentiate Control from this pseudo-burn deck to more traditional Control which is something Modern sorely needs.
Apples to Oranges. That's two-color, and in the realm of abrupt decay, proposed Abrupt counter, lightning helix, golgari charm, izzet charm type power level. Adding a second color changes things, and even then R&D members have written in the past that terminate may have been a mistake despite seeing almost no play in modern.
How was Terminate a mistake and where is this article? Terminate has been around for a LONG time. If you're going to say Terminate is mostly OK because it's 2 color, I'll take my UW or UB functional reprint of Counterspell now, thanks. My point was, that counterspell being UU actually is a significant cost. It won't see play in decks like Delver because Spell Pierce is generally much better and much easier to cast. The same goes for Blue Moon since UU is quite restrictive when you're also playing Blood Moon MB. I'd almost wager dollars to donuts that UU would be a more restrictive cost than UW or UB.
I fail to see how a 2 mana counter is 'too powerful' in a world where most decks have average CMC's of ~ 2.5. It would also make playing cards like Lightning Helix alongside Counterspell quite dicey (as well as make LD against control even better...). I think it would be a great addition to the format and would further differentiate Control from this pseudo-burn deck to more traditional Control which is something Modern sorely needs.
While I don't think that Counterspell is too good, Blue Moon plays Cryptic Command. It can easily cast it. Also, Spell Pierce is usually much worse, even in Delver. The only reason why it is seeing play now is because it beats Chalice, is good in the mirror, and fills the graveyard for Treasure Cruise faster. Counterspell is usually better, and I have seen many Delver decks play Mana Leak, which is just worse.
you guys are missing that counterspell is definitely still a situational counter since it costs 2 mana, 1 mana spells are therefore good against this type of strategy because they both: sneak in on turn 1 under counterspell mana, and on turn 3 etc you can play multiple spells a turn while only 1 of them gets counterspelled. Also have you guys not seen cavern of souls ? If counterspell became oppressive (which i really dont think it would) then people could just play a couple of these in their deck/sideboard, Same thing with Thrun, the last troll. Heck reanimator decks already play Boseiju, Who Shelters All in the sideboard. I really don't see how counterspell is "too good".
R&D members have written in the past that terminate may have been a mistake despite seeing almost no play in modern.
in sam stoddards article on removal he wrote about how various old powerful removal was possible to be reprinted (including path and lightning bolt) " I have personally enjoyed how it has shaped our FFL. I could see us printing Terminate in a gold set, for example, to give one color pair a strong and efficient removal spell and to shake Standard up a bit"
so you can see terminate is still considered for a spell theyd want to print. Most definitely not a mistake...
I was referencing the comments Stoddard made in the WOTC forums about that article, indicating that it was OK for a gold set but not the same power level they see as being "regular" for magic nowadays.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
ancient tomb and wasteland seem a little dangerous, even for a legacy lite.
Why? Wasteland is a card that forces people to build their decks to expect it and punishes greedy mana better than any other card in the game.
As for Tomb, it depends. Tomb is better in combo decks than City, but way worse in prison decks. If we're scared of combo, City is safer, but prison decks are also potentially scary. I suppose City is the safer card overall, though, since it requires you to build around it with Crucible of Worlds or what have you and Tomb doesn't.
they don't do cards on the reserved list that are just slightly different (like make it legendary) since as you said, it wouldnt change the gameplay at all. Also a lot of people don't like games where they cannot get to at least 3 mana or so and despite it being "their fault" for not building their mana bases with wasteland in mind they still have a bad experience. thats what modern day developers want to avoid anyways since it drives customers away, so it seems unlikely u'll get a wasteland reprint.
Again, thanks for stating the obvious, but this is not a thread about what will enter Modern, because of course Wasteland won't when they think Tec Edge is too good. It's a thread about what we think should be reprinted, and in my opinion, Wasteland should be reprinted.
In fairness, the thread isn't just a sounding board where people can just say "I want XYZ reprinted". Just as they can say why they want something, other users can agree/disagree as they please. I routinely disagree with any reprint that would help out Burn and regularly support any reprint that would help out black-based control.
Not sure what I think about Wasteland. Modern has a serious problem with nonbasic lands right now and some sort of punishment would be good. Price of Progress is obviously too busted given how strong Burn is right now, and Back to Basics is probably too narrow. But Wasteland seems overly punitive. What they really need is a middle ground between Tec Edge and Wasteland, but that's a topic for another thread.
In fairness, the thread isn't just a sounding board where people can just say "I want XYZ reprinted". Just as they can say why they want something, other users can agree/disagree as they please. I routinely disagree with any reprint that would help out Burn and regularly support any reprint that would help out black-based control.
Giving reasons for why the reprint would be bad is fine, but stating the obvious reason for why it hasn't/won't be reprinted doesn't really add much to the discussion.
Innocent Blood will almost certainly never see a Standard reprint again either with Wizards' current R&D philosophies - doesn't mean it wouldn't improve Modern by being there.
Not sure what I think about Wasteland. Modern has a serious problem with nonbasic lands right now and some sort of punishment would be good. Price of Progress is obviously too busted given how strong Burn is right now, and Back to Basics is probably too narrow. But Wasteland seems overly punitive. What they really need is a middle ground between Tec Edge and Wasteland, but that's a topic for another thread.
You seem to forget that Wasteland also punishes the player who's using it. Only some decks can afford to play a colourless land like it, and only some can afford to 1-for-1 the opponent's land. Granted, Delver might jump at the opportunity to play it, but I can't help but feel that Delver is just the flavour of the month right now and that things will even out in time. At any rate, I do feel like we need better nonbasic hate than what we have to slot into any colour. Much better than what we have.
Wasteland doesn't punish the player using it any more than Tectonic Edge. That hasn't stopped Edge from seeing play in a huge assortment of decks, and I assure you that Wasteland would see play in basically all of them.
In fairness, the thread isn't just a sounding board where people can just say "I want XYZ reprinted". Just as they can say why they want something, other users can agree/disagree as they please. I routinely disagree with any reprint that would help out Burn and regularly support any reprint that would help out black-based control.
Giving reasons for why the reprint would be bad is fine, but stating the obvious reason for why it hasn't/won't be reprinted doesn't really add much to the discussion.
Innocent Blood will almost certainly never see a Standard reprint again either with Wizards' current R&D philosophies - doesn't mean it wouldn't improve Modern by being there.
Not sure what I think about Wasteland. Modern has a serious problem with nonbasic lands right now and some sort of punishment would be good. Price of Progress is obviously too busted given how strong Burn is right now, and Back to Basics is probably too narrow. But Wasteland seems overly punitive. What they really need is a middle ground between Tec Edge and Wasteland, but that's a topic for another thread.
You seem to forget that Wasteland also punishes the player who's using it. Only some decks can afford to play a colourless land like it, and only some can afford to 1-for-1 the opponent's land. Granted, Delver might jump at the opportunity to play it, but I can't help but feel that Delver is just the flavour of the month right now and that things will even out in time. At any rate, I do feel like we need better nonbasic hate than what we have to slot into any colour. Much better than what we have.
Well at least I'll agree we need better non-basic hate in modern. I do kiiiiinda worry anything better than what we have will completely kill trons viability, but I still think it's doable since they can tutor up more lands. Less games with turn 3 karns sounds good to me anyway.
Again, thanks for stating the obvious, but this is not a thread about what will enter Modern, because of course Wasteland won't when they think Tec Edge is too good. It's a thread about what we think should be reprinted, and in my opinion, Wasteland should be reprinted.
In fairness, the thread isn't just a sounding board where people can just say "I want XYZ reprinted". Just as they can say why they want something, other users can agree/disagree as they please. I routinely disagree with any reprint that would help out Burn and regularly support any reprint that would help out black-based control.
Not sure what I think about Wasteland. Modern has a serious problem with nonbasic lands right now and some sort of punishment would be good. Price of Progress is obviously too busted given how strong Burn is right now, and Back to Basics is probably too narrow. But Wasteland seems overly punitive. What they really need is a middle ground between Tec Edge and Wasteland, but that's a topic for another thread.
I think part of the answer to the non-basic madness might be From the Ashes. It is safer to print than Ruination certainly. If they don't put enough basic lands in their deck it can actually reduce their number of lands, so it will police some of the greedier decks, but have less effect on decks that have a decent number of basics, other than reducing their future mana fixing potential, also great for clearing the field of most utility lands.
Well at least I'll agree we need better non-basic hate in modern. I do kiiiiinda worry anything better than what we have will completely kill trons viability, but I still think it's doable since they can tutor up more lands. Less games with turn 3 karns sounds good to me anyway.
That is the statement from someone who got his permanents exiled
Here is my list from cards that I would like to see as unlikely as they might be:
Well at least I'll agree we need better non-basic hate in modern. I do kiiiiinda worry anything better than what we have will completely kill trons viability, but I still think it's doable since they can tutor up more lands. Less games with turn 3 karns sounds good to me anyway.
That is the statement from someone who got his permanents exiled
Here is my list from cards that I would like to see as unlikely as they might be:
Hahahaha I like all these suggestions but not sold on sword to plowshares? I kinda like that white has to use path. It feels right power level wise. Give white mom instead and I will cease complaining on any and all threads hahaha
Well at least I'll agree we need better non-basic hate in modern. I do kiiiiinda worry anything better than what we have will completely kill trons viability, but I still think it's doable since they can tutor up more lands. Less games with turn 3 karns sounds good to me anyway.
That is the statement from someone who got his permanents exiled
Here is my list from cards that I would like to see as unlikely as they might be:
I like these with the exception of Swords to Plowshares. That card is most likely a little too good for what it does as lifegain is basically no downside, especially for small creatures. I like that Bolt can't hit huge creatures, that Path has a downside, and that Innocent Blood (if it was in Modern) forces you to not run important creatures like Goyf. I'd love more white removal, but it should at least have a relevant downside.
Scroll Rack would never be reprinted as long as Top is banned due to timing purposes, so this is just a unrealistic wish from my part. I just don't know of any card that single handily sets up miracles as well as Rack + it has the added benefit of working really well with Loam (hence the cycling lands too).
Vindicate and Innocent Blood could push Pox into T1 territory. There's a possibility that Vindicate would make Junk too good, but I'm not sure how much Junk wants this card over Decay.
Goblin Bombardment + Carrion Feeder could spawn a Zombie deck and Fact or Fiction would give slower blue decks a new tool.
Vindicate and Innocent Blood could push Pox into T1 territory. There's a possibility that Vindicate would make Junk too good, but I'm not sure how much Junk wants this card over Decay.
Vindicate and Innocent Blood could push Pox into T1 territory. There's a possibility that Vindicate would make Junk too good, but I'm not sure how much Junk wants this card over Decay.
Vindicate is WAY too strong for modern. If it didn't have the ability to destroy lands it would be okay, maaaaybe even at instant speed. Innocent Blood would be an interesting addition.
I mean Vindicate went from being a Legacy stable to seeing close to 0 play once Decay was printed. The curve of a Modern deck is slightly higher than the one of a Legacy deck (thus the LD part being stronger), but there's just so much removal you can afford to run MD (especially sorcery speed removal since we gotta deal with those Exarchs) and we don't have Deathrite to jump from 1 to 3 on the curve. Realistically how many decks would play Vindicate as a 4-of? Pox is the only one I can think of and I don't mind them getting a boost
Vindicate is WAY too strong for modern. If it didn't have the ability to destroy lands it would be okay, maaaaybe even at instant speed. Innocent Blood would be an interesting addition.
Lol, making it unable to destroy lands destroys the whole purpose of the card Maelstrom Pulse is BETTER than Vindicate without the ability to destroy lands. And that card sees NO PLAY AT ALL. And the colors are better....
Vindicate would be ok and cool.
it's WB, a color combination that does not see much play, it's sorcery, it's counterable.
Vindicate is not too strong for Modern, come on. 3 mana sorcery that's counterable is not broken for Modern at all. I'm tired of all this nonland stuff which makes the game actually more uninteractive when it comes to manlands and other utility lands. I understand wizards hates land destruction but, simply just don't print a plethora of cheap LD spells and its fine.
Vindicate is a great card but playtest it a bit and you'll realize its not broken for Modern. If anything, it may actually make the colors BW competitive.
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Yes we do, it's called Terminate.
I think the only MU where it would be actively bad is Tron, and even then there legal targets in plenty, those targets are just things that you don't want to be countering. As opposed to countering the things that actually matter in Tron like Karn, Engine and such.
A deck like Twin (where half of their combo can't be hit by this) or Pod (where their primary value engine is immune and can run out things in an uncounterable manner) still has the majority of the deck be legal targets for the spell. Seriously, this card can counter at least 75% of the spells that see serious Modern play, even though it does have some critical blind spots.
When control had Mana Leak, JTMS, Gideon Jura, Wall of Omens, Ponder, Preordain, Path to Exile, Condemn, Day of Judgment etc. etc. in standard it wasn't dominant - Jund was. They can make powerful control cards, and not have it be a dominant force in standard...it just means cards like Sprouting Thrinax, Bloodbraid Elf, Putrid Leech, Blightning, Inquisition of Kozilek, Bolt, etc. are in the same standard
Hell, even RDW during AL-ZEN was extremely good, as was RB Vamps. There's no reason we can't get good control cards through Standard...it's just that WoTC has been on a power decline in conjunction with a let's hate control because....we made a stupid mistake with SFM/Batterskull/Sword and thus we think Mana Leak and Jace is too powerful because Caw-blade, :>
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
How was Terminate a mistake and where is this article? Terminate has been around for a LONG time. If you're going to say Terminate is mostly OK because it's 2 color, I'll take my UW or UB functional reprint of Counterspell now, thanks.
I fail to see how a 2 mana counter is 'too powerful' in a world where most decks have average CMC's of ~ 2.5. It would also make playing cards like Lightning Helix alongside Counterspell quite dicey (as well as make LD against control even better...). I think it would be a great addition to the format and would further differentiate Control from this pseudo-burn deck to more traditional Control which is something Modern sorely needs.
While I don't think that Counterspell is too good, Blue Moon plays Cryptic Command. It can easily cast it. Also, Spell Pierce is usually much worse, even in Delver. The only reason why it is seeing play now is because it beats Chalice, is good in the mirror, and fills the graveyard for Treasure Cruise faster. Counterspell is usually better, and I have seen many Delver decks play Mana Leak, which is just worse.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
on the point of efficiency,
in sam stoddards article on removal he wrote about how various old powerful removal was possible to be reprinted (including path and lightning bolt) " I have personally enjoyed how it has shaped our FFL. I could see us printing Terminate in a gold set, for example, to give one color pair a strong and efficient removal spell and to shake Standard up a bit"
so you can see terminate is still considered for a spell theyd want to print. Most definitely not a mistake...
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Isn't city is on the reserved list?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
In fairness, the thread isn't just a sounding board where people can just say "I want XYZ reprinted". Just as they can say why they want something, other users can agree/disagree as they please. I routinely disagree with any reprint that would help out Burn and regularly support any reprint that would help out black-based control.
Not sure what I think about Wasteland. Modern has a serious problem with nonbasic lands right now and some sort of punishment would be good. Price of Progress is obviously too busted given how strong Burn is right now, and Back to Basics is probably too narrow. But Wasteland seems overly punitive. What they really need is a middle ground between Tec Edge and Wasteland, but that's a topic for another thread.
Wasteland doesn't punish the player using it any more than Tectonic Edge. That hasn't stopped Edge from seeing play in a huge assortment of decks, and I assure you that Wasteland would see play in basically all of them.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Well at least I'll agree we need better non-basic hate in modern. I do kiiiiinda worry anything better than what we have will completely kill trons viability, but I still think it's doable since they can tutor up more lands. Less games with turn 3 karns sounds good to me anyway.
I think part of the answer to the non-basic madness might be From the Ashes. It is safer to print than Ruination certainly. If they don't put enough basic lands in their deck it can actually reduce their number of lands, so it will police some of the greedier decks, but have less effect on decks that have a decent number of basics, other than reducing their future mana fixing potential, also great for clearing the field of most utility lands.
That is the statement from someone who got his permanents exiled
Here is my list from cards that I would like to see as unlikely as they might be:
Innocent Blood
Counterspell
Absorb
Undermine
Memory Lapse
Swords to Plowshares
Chill
Warmth
Hahahaha I like all these suggestions but not sold on sword to plowshares? I kinda like that white has to use path. It feels right power level wise. Give white mom instead and I will cease complaining on any and all threads hahaha
I like these with the exception of Swords to Plowshares. That card is most likely a little too good for what it does as lifegain is basically no downside, especially for small creatures. I like that Bolt can't hit huge creatures, that Path has a downside, and that Innocent Blood (if it was in Modern) forces you to not run important creatures like Goyf. I'd love more white removal, but it should at least have a relevant downside.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
- Cycling lands (Barren Moor, Tranquil Thicket etc.)
- Innocent Blood
- Vindicate
- Carrion Feeder
- Goblin Bombardment
- Fact or Fiction
- Scroll Rack
Scroll Rack would never be reprinted as long as Top is banned due to timing purposes, so this is just a unrealistic wish from my part. I just don't know of any card that single handily sets up miracles as well as Rack + it has the added benefit of working really well with Loam (hence the cycling lands too).
Vindicate and Innocent Blood could push Pox into T1 territory. There's a possibility that Vindicate would make Junk too good, but I'm not sure how much Junk wants this card over Decay.
Goblin Bombardment + Carrion Feeder could spawn a Zombie deck and Fact or Fiction would give slower blue decks a new tool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ
lol
Innocent Blood would be an interesting addition.
Lol, making it unable to destroy lands destroys the whole purpose of the card
Maelstrom Pulse is BETTER than Vindicate without the ability to destroy lands. And that card sees NO PLAY AT ALL. And the colors are better....
Vindicate would be ok and cool.
it's WB, a color combination that does not see much play, it's sorcery, it's counterable.
Vindicate is a great card but playtest it a bit and you'll realize its not broken for Modern. If anything, it may actually make the colors BW competitive.