A reprint of counterspell would just go against everything Wizards is trying to achieve with the modern format.
I don't have any bones to pick with anyone, and I hope you don't take offense to me responding directly to just one statement but there seems to be a common occurrence when people discuss Modern: "You will never see X or Y card because that's not how Wizards wants to approach the format."
What anybody has to accept out of that statement is a truth that I disagree with, and that is we are accepting the way Wizards is taking the format is for the better. So far there have been countless reasons given not by just certain individuals, but droves of communities to take certain course of actions with regards to Modern. Bitterblossom, JTMS, Ancestral Vision, at least Preordain, Wild Nacatl, and Green Sun Zenith. These cards have counters to them, but there is this misappropriated disdain for any card that is printed with "Counter target spell" by very vocal populations in the Magic community. Why do those who appreciate the true aspect of what Counter Spells do have to be subjugated into playing non-blue strategies to accomplish any form of control?
What I mean by that statement is this: "A Counter: A thing that opposes or prevents something else." Goblin Electromancer is a counter to Thalia for Instants and Sorceries. Leyline of the Sanctity is a counter to all targeted red burn spells and discard. There have been multiple printings of various forms of grave hate to assemble a list of counters to graveyard strategies.
So with the advent of the printing of even more powerful cards that are being designed to be cheaper to cast, we will eventually get to the point where so many cards do so many things that there are no longer catch-alls and only silver bullets for specific cards. That means I will have to dedicate 3-4 Mindbreak Traps, 4 Leylines, 3 Stony Silence, 2-4 Shadow of Doubts in the sideboard because the only way I can answer a specific mechanic is for Wizards to print cards like Glaring Spotlight to deal with certain narrow strategies.
UWR saw a lot of success this past weekend at GP Portland. I was in attendance, and I tested rigorously for the event. UWR Control utilizes tempo mechanics to achieve a long drawn out game of attrition and accumulating minimal card advantage until they have the critical mass of mana and cards to overwhelm the opponent. That is what control is reduced to in this format, being a tempo deck that doesn't even attempt to apply pressure early game and hope to hell that they draw all the removal spells they need because the only decks that are allowed to exist are creature based.
If a counter existed would we need to have banned seething song? How about Second Sunrise? If Bloodbraid Elf had something to counter could that also exist? What if all these cards could someday be unbanned like Valakut because the environment is ripe for it? Can we not just arrive at that time by catalyzing that environment instead of just dismissing it?
What does Counterspell counter? It isn't a Stifle, not even a Force of Will, not a Wasteland, not a card that breaks the boundaries of the Magic universe. It allows for cards to exist while it can Counter it. We don't need it now... because Wizards is just going to make Counterspell unnecessary. Yup, I don't think I've come to such a low opinion of something like this until now.
If the problem is that it's blue, then they should just print it in another color. Why not just have it cost GG instead of UU?
The problem isn't that it's blue. The problem is that blue is the only colour that wins on the stack. There need to be avenues for other colours to shut down spells on the stack, and the method I proposed was giving other colours conditional counters. There should be counters in green, red, black, and white. They don't need to be as strong as blue counters, in the same way that black and white removal tends to be the best, but they need to exist so that balanced interactions can occur on both axes of the game (battlefield and stack).
The problem isn't that it's blue. The problem is that blue is the only colour that wins on the stack. There need to be avenues for other colours to shut down spells on the stack, and the method I proposed was giving other colours conditional counters. There should be counters in green, red, black, and white. They don't need to be as strong as blue counters, in the same way that black and white removal tends to be the best, but they need to exist so that balanced interactions can occur on both axes of the game (battlefield and stack).
WHY? does blue also need Path? Does green need Thoughtseize?
Blue can only bounce stuff from the board,countering spells is blue's way to do it's stuff, just as red burns your face and has bolt, black strips your hand and has Thoughtseize and IoK, white exiles your creatures and has Path and green doesn't care and eats you with a giant Tarmogoyf.
Most of these are also legacy staples, whereas Countespell only sees fringe play, while at the same time apparently being "too powerful" for Modern, meanwhile, you'll even see all these cards in the same freaking deck. What about blue? Remand? Mana Leak? Where are blue's super efficient cheap spells?
WHY? does blue also need Path? Does green need Thoughtseize?
Blue can only bounce stuff from the board,countering spells is blue's way to do it's stuff, just as red burns your face and has bolt, black strips your hand and has Thoughtseize and IoK, white exiles your creatures and has Path and green doesn't care and eats you with a giant Tarmogoyf.
Most of these are also legacy staples, whereas Countespell only sees fringe play, while at the same time apparently being "too powerful" for Modern, meanwhile, you'll even see all these cards in the same freaking deck. What about blue? Remand? Mana Leak? Where are blue's super efficient cheap spells?
You're missing my point. I'm not saying that blue should get Path, or green needs thoughtseize. I'm talking about functionality. Let's look at it this way:
Bolt, unsummon, path, terminate, go for the throat, prey upon, beast within, and any fight mechanic: these are all members of the same type. They are all removal mechanics that fit within that colour. They take a creature off the battlefield, at instant speed. Blue doesn't need path, because it has unsummon, and unsummon fits its identity more. It has that functionality, same as any other colour.
Now we have draw: puresteel paladin, wall of omens, garruk, harmonize, sphinx's revelation, faithless looting, blue sun's zenith, dark confidant, phyrexian arena, necropotence, sign in blood, desperate ravings, burning inquiry. Again, these are all the same type: they let you dig into your deck, in a way that fits with the colour's identity.
How about tutoring? enlightened tutor, mystical tutor, diabolical tutor, vampiric tutor, reshape, trinket mage, treasure mage, mwonvuli beast tracker, green sun's zenith. Again, these are all the same basic type.
Now apply this logic to counterspells, and you'll find that almost all of them are blue. Blue is the colour that wins on the stack, and there are no other colours that are able to reliably fulfil this functionality. Counterspell, cancel, mana leak, mana drain, remand, etc. are all blue. You have mana tithe, judge's familiar, and frontline medic in white, but there needs to be a greater crossover.
I'm not arguing that all colours need to be the same, but I believe that opening counters up to other colours will allow for more balanced design space. Think about this:
GREEN COUNTER X1GG
Creature
Flash
When GREEN COUNTER enters the battlefield, counter target spell unless its controller pays 1+X.
X/X
So you get a soft counter if X=0, and it's on a creature, which fits green's theme. This would make a terrible blue counter, but as a green counter it might be okay. Or how about this:
BLACK COUNTER BB
Instant
Counter target spell. You lose X life, where X is equal to that spell's converted mana cost.
Or:
BLACK COUNTER 1BB
Enchantment
Flash
As an additional cost to cast ~, discard a card from your hand. When ~ enters the battlefield, counter target spell. BBB: sacrifice ~, counter target spells unless its controller discards a card.
Enchantments are a black thing, particularly flash enchantments. You get to counter two spells with it, but it requires you to discard, and the second time is both telegraphed, and a soft counter that fits in with black's theme.
RED COUNTER 1RR
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller takes damage equal that spell's converted mana cost.
not great early game, but powerful late game. Definitely wouldn't fit blue, but would probably fit red.
WHITE COUNTER 2WW
Enchantment
Flash
When WHITE COUNTER enters the battlefield, counter all spells not named WHITE COUNTER currently on the stack. WW, exile WHITE COUNTER: return target spell to its owner's hand.
White sets rules. You counter their spells, it counters all spells, including its own.
See how these are all examples of fulfilling functionality without necessarily being the same? All I'm saying is, I think making counters a part of every colour would restore a bit of balance to the game. Every colour could compete with blue (to an extent), and there would hence be nothing wrong with having spells like counterspell around, since it could be answered by other colours. In fact, this could open the game up to the return of cards like foil, that keep combo in check, not to mention, lead to the creation of new archetypes in different colours.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you clarify?
And NoUndies, really, unsummon as removal?
It is. Effectiveness is not part of the discussion, only the macro type. As I stated earlier, unsummon interacts with a creature on the battlefield, and removes it from the battlefield. It doesn't kill it, but it's definitely removal, and operates along the same line of play as Path, Bolt, Terminate etc. Sure, you'd rather use Path, but in a tempo deck, for example, there's functionally very little difference.
Compare this to counterspell; the only thing it has in common with bolt and other removal spells, is that it puts things into the graveyard. By that definition, mill would also count as removal, and I don't think any sane person would argue that this is the case.
If effectiveness is not part of the discussion, then how is the argument that mana leak is too strong for standard even an argument? That makes no sense. Hey, red and green have terrible, crap counterspells too. Should we count those?
Effectiveness MUST be a part of the discussion.
So by your reckoning, remand isn't a counterspell then, since it doesn't send the card to the graveyard? This is about forms of interaction, not where the spell ends up. Sure, there's a discussion to be had regarding how useful a card is in a given context, but that doesn't tell us much about what type of card it is. For that, we need to look at the zone it acts on, and the type of interaction it creates.
And where did I state that mana leak is too strong for standard? Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that there's a facet of the game that only blue has access to, and things would improve if other colours were able to interact along the same axis. This would mean we could potentially get stronger spells in general, and -gasp- maybe even conditionally free counters that can keep combo in check. Not moving counters into other colours creates the problem that legacy has, where everyone is forced to play blue just to stop unfair decks from doing their thing, and Wizard's explicitly wants to avoid that. Their solution has been to ban cards that create unfair interactions, and we've all seen how well that's been going.
Please use this thread for cards that are not in the modern card pool. This forum isn't "Bring Your Own Format"
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With removal you can play your drop now and deal with a threat later, you can topdeck it and deal with something on the board. Counters are dead in respect to what's on the board. You are underestimating the huge drawback of having to cast it exactly when it's target is cast. You don't have the option of not staying open for it and it still being as useful by itself later.
Just compare how broken a counterable, unrestricted Decay would look besides counterspell.
I don't know how old you are or if you played through the epoch of draw go magic but I thinking you didn't because I doubt we'd be having this conversation if you did.
So you want an unrestricted counterable decay to compare to counterspell? First of all, your proving my point by doing a hypothetical with a card that would be an auto include in every competitive deck that could support it. Second, your super decay still does nothing to protect you or your board state from instances and sorceries. Counterspell would still be equal or perhaps still more powerful than said card. The only way to make a removal spell as strong as Counterspell is take Vindicate and cut one mana. Now you have something close to counterspell.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
IoK, Thoughtseize, Deathrite, Bolt are ALL played more in Legacy. In fact I can think of two decks off the top of my head that play more than a jank copy of Counterspell at any given time.
here's what Coutnerspell would do to modern; This guy's UWR Midrange/Twin/Teachings deck is blue majority, -3 mana leak + 3 Counterspell
That is it. Now do we need Counterspell? I'll bet dollars to donuts that a Counterspell reprint would do nothing for control, slightly strengthen a few combo decks and be all around insignificant.
Let's focus on things modern actually NEEDS. Like a better way to deal with nonbasic lands, =\
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I don't know how old you are or if you played through the epoch of draw go magic but I thinking you didn't because I doubt we'd be having this conversation if you did.
So you want an unrestricted counterable decay to compare to counterspell? First of all, your proving my point by doing a hypothetical with a card that would be an auto include in every competitive deck that could support it. Second, your super decay still does nothing to protect you or your board state from instances and sorceries. Counterspell would still be equal or perhaps still more powerful than said card. The only way to make a removal spell as strong as Counterspell is take Vindicate and cut one mana. Now you have something close to counterspell.
What i wanted to illustrate is the point that you seem to keep missing about how removal and counterspells relate to each other. You have to stay open for a counter or it becomes a dead card in respect to what's on the board. The fact that you can counter a permanent spell doesn't mean you have an answer to any permanent. You have an answer to SPELLS, as in "as it's being cast". Super decay would be way more broken because it doesn't have that huge restriction wich counters have by default.
I started playing on Invasion extended. We had Mana leak, and both counterspell and brainstorm, and the creatures sucked compared to what modern has now, and you still wouldn't see everyone running blue by any means.
I'm curious, do you think its just happy coincidence that they entire framework of Modern is centered around starting in the first core set without counterspell?
And counterspell isn't dangerous because of what it would slide into but rather what would be spawned from it. Modern does not need a hard counter at 2 mana.
Infallible you are right about the not having enough nonbasic or any land hate in general. A reprint of wasteland would be nice but its so broken it'll never happen.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
One of the defining features of Modern is its friendliness towards 4-5 color goodstuff/midrange decks. Some players enjoy this, arguing that it leads to format diversity. I find it quite annoying, as it lets deckbuilders be indiscriminate in their card choices and go across colors to find what they need. Need a good beater? Splash green for Goyf. Need the best mana dork ever? Splash black for DRS. Need removal? Add white and red for Path and Bolt. Need some control and card advantage? Use blue for Snapcaster.
It's fine that these decks exist. What's not fine is that manabases are not punished by the cards in the card pool itself. Currently, the only thing keeping the 4-5C decks at bay is aggro. You can't play a 5 color manabase without double-bolting yourself by turn 4, and that's not always a good game plan. But in any other matchup, 4-5C decks can exist with impunity.
Modern needs some reprints to rein in manabases. Wasteland is obviously too powerful, and Tectonic Edge is obviously too terrible. Thankfully, there are a lot of reprints that punish nonbasics without being too over the top. Some of these cards would be more effective at punishing nonbasics (Back to Basics) than others (Encroach). But all of them are options to consider. They are listed in order of least to most powerful:
Let's just start with the last card on the list, and the most powerful. Price is almost assuredly too broken for Modern. Against most decks, that card is basically 2 mana for 8+ damage, which is probably too punitive. It would definitely push burn and red-based Zoo strategies over the top.
Ruination, Back to Basics, and Dust Bowl are much tamer options. All of them, especially Bowl and BtB, go into a certain type of control strategy that is currently absent from Modern. They bring metagame balance by helping archetypes that are underrepresented. Ruination is particularly interesting because it can act as a one-sided armageddon, thus enabling a bunch of mono R or Rx strategies.
Any of these cards except probably Encroach and Primal Order would have a big effect on Modern. And I don't think that any of them except Price are too crazy.
If I had to pick just one from the list, it would be Back to Basics, a card that would enable enough new decks without instantly slotting into existing ones. Dust Bowl is a close second, but that card is so niche that I worry it would not have enough metagame effect.
What i wanted to illustrate is the point that you seem to keep missing about how removal and counterspells relate to each other. You have to stay open for a counter or it becomes a dead card in respect to what's on the board. The fact that you can counter a permanent spell doesn't mean you have an answer to any permanent. You have an answer to SPELLS, as in "as it's being cast". Super decay would be way more broken because it doesn't have that huge restriction wich counters have by default.
I started playing on Invasion extended. We had Mana leak, and both counterspell and brainstorm, and the creatures sucked compared to what modern has now, and you still wouldn't see everyone running blue by any means.
The thing that your missing is by and large counterspell is an answer to any permanent. Enchantment you can't deal with, counterspell, creature to big or fast or evasive, counterspell, artifact, counterspell, equipment, counterspell, instant, counterspell, sorcery, counterspell, planeswalker, counterspell. It answers everything for UU, all you need to know is the interactions your opponent is trying to capitalize on. Think of it like an investment plan. The smart guy plans ahead and sees the problems before they become probelms (counterspell). The not so smart guy still sees the problem but defers it to a later date (spot removal). What happens on that later date when two or three more problems arise or interact with the first one? A lot of times your SOL.
Its also important to remember Modern is suppose to be a 4 turn format. Games aren't gonna last that long to begin with. Its why 1 mana removal is considered optimal. Its also why Mana Leak should be fine as well. It's usually nearly a hard counter through turn 5. And its still considered really good. Now imagine a counter through turn 15 (if you ever see 15 turns lol) that is as solid at 15 as it was at turn 2.
The other thing to take into account is there was no snapcaster, no delver, no GoST when counterspell was legal. Two of these are big aggro cards, which U never had until recently. The other turns your 4 counterspells into 8.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
The thing that your missing is by and large counterspell is an answer to any permanent. Enchantment you can't deal with, counterspell, creature to big or fast or evasive, counterspell, artifact, counterspell, equipment, counterspell, instant, counterspell, sorcery, counterspell, planeswalker, counterspell. It answers everything for UU, all you need to know is the interactions your opponent is trying to capitalize on. Think of it like an investment plan. The smart guy plans ahead and sees the problems before they become probelms (counterspell). The not so smart guy still sees the problem but defers it to a later date (spot removal). What happens on that later date when two or three more problems arise or interact with the first one? A lot of times your SOL.
Its also important to remember Modern is suppose to be a 4 turn format. Games aren't gonna last that long to begin with. Its why 1 mana removal is considered optimal. Its also why Mana Leak should be fine as well. It's usually nearly a hard counter through turn 5. And its still considered really good. Now imagine a counter through turn 15 (if you ever see 15 turns lol) that is as solid at 15 as it was at turn 2.
The other thing to take into account is there was no snapcaster, no delver, no GoST when counterspell was legal. Two of these are big aggro cards, which U never had until recently. The other turns your 4 counterspells into 8.
Er, no. The other guy gets turns into cryptic command by counterspell. There's a difference.
Also... Blue has had aggro cards. Fish has been a thing for ages.
Counterspell would make a lot of decks a little bit better, but it would provide the biggest boost to the real, long-game control decks like the WUR draw-go type of deck. Mana leak is just a bad card in that deck which almost never wins before turn 10 and often goes longer, but you still have to play it because there's nothing better.
That said, I think there are other counterspells that could be reprinted that would be nice. I kinda like complicate though I'm not totally sure what it would do (or if it would even be played). I also really like prohibit. You can't rely on only prohibits because it misses liliana, exarch, and pod and many others, but it would still be pretty nice to have.
There's also things like absorb and undermine. I'm not sure it's better than counterflux, which is mainboardable (and I do play 1-2 of them) but it's in different colors. Dromar's Charm would be a real sweet one for decks that could play it. I'm not sure if Forbid would be too good, but I don't think it would be broken because there's not much in the way of good repeatable card-drawing that goes on currently.
IoK, Thoughtseize, Deathrite, Bolt are ALL played more in Legacy. In fact I can think of two decks off the top of my head that play more than a jank copy of Counterspell at any given time.
here's what Coutnerspell would do to modern; This guy's UWR Midrange/Twin/Teachings deck is blue majority, -3 mana leak + 3 Counterspell
That is it. Now do we need Counterspell? I'll bet dollars to donuts that a Counterspell reprint would do nothing for control, slightly strengthen a few combo decks and be all around insignificant.
Let's focus on things modern actually NEEDS. Like a better way to deal with nonbasic lands, =\
Kill the mana base and you kill the format. The appeal is playing the greedy mana bases. Blood moon is available and its rarely played.
Counter spell is better later then mana leak. But I agree it would do little to the format.
The thing that your missing is by and large counterspell is an answer to any permanent. Enchantment you can't deal with, counterspell, creature to big or fast or evasive, counterspell, artifact, counterspell, equipment, counterspell, instant, counterspell, sorcery, counterspell, planeswalker, counterspell. It answers everything for UU, all you need to know is the interactions your opponent is trying to capitalize on. Think of it like an investment plan. The smart guy plans ahead and sees the problems before they become probelms (counterspell). The not so smart guy still sees the problem but defers it to a later date (spot removal). What happens on that later date when two or three more problems arise or interact with the first one? A lot of times your SOL.
Its also important to remember Modern is suppose to be a 4 turn format. Games aren't gonna last that long to begin with. Its why 1 mana removal is considered optimal. Its also why Mana Leak should be fine as well. It's usually nearly a hard counter through turn 5. And its still considered really good. Now imagine a counter through turn 15 (if you ever see 15 turns lol) that is as solid at 15 as it was at turn 2.
The other thing to take into account is there was no snapcaster, no delver, no GoST when counterspell was legal. Two of these are big aggro cards, which U never had until recently. The other turns your 4 counterspells into 8.
You don't understand the significance when i say counterspell is not at answer to permanents as much as an answer to SPELLS. Thoughtseize costs B and 2 life, and it can do all that too, and more, as you also get valuable information, but you have to play it before them, wich in turn, is still more flexible than if you have to play it exactly WHEN they play it.
You are right, mana leak is good through turn 5, or if you're not against Tron, and then it's kinda lame. Bolt is equally good all game long. How good would a Bolt unless you pay 3 be in comparison? I don't need to imagine how countespell would be. I actually know what it does and how strong it is, I know it would be a 4-of that ppl would seek to play often, but so are so many other cards.
When counterspell was legal we didn't have snapcasters, wich i agree could be a thing, but there also weren't Lilis and IoKs killing you hand, or Tarmos that were always bigger than what you could handle, or Bolts killing all your stuff or having you at half life on turn 3, or Karns on the 3rd land drop. Counterspell would, by comparison, actually be weaker in Modern now than what it was in extended when it was legal.
Hey man, believe what you want. I'd be happy to play draw go again.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
A card like Ruination is way too strong. It would reduce diversity. (Tron would have to run blue for instance and it's splashable and not prevented well by discard).
Some people have suggested running fetch land hosers like Ankh of Mishra.
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You don't understand the significance when i say counterspell is not at answer to permanents as much as an answer to SPELLS. Thoughtseize costs B and 2 life, and it can do all that too, and more, as you also get valuable information, but you have to play it before them, wich in turn, is still more flexible than if you have to play it exactly WHEN they play it.
You are right, mana leak is good through turn 5, or if you're not against Tron, and then it's kinda lame. Bolt is equally good all game long. How good would a Bolt unless you pay 3 be in comparison? I don't need to imagine how countespell would be. I actually know what it does and how strong it is, I know it would be a 4-of that ppl would seek to play often, but so are so many other cards.
When counterspell was legal we didn't have snapcasters, wich i agree could be a thing, but there also weren't Lilis and IoKs killing you hand, or Tarmos that were always bigger than what you could handle, or Bolts killing all your stuff or having you at half life on turn 3, or Karns on the 3rd land drop. Counterspell would, by comparison, actually be weaker in Modern now than what it was in extended when it was legal.
But there were Hymn, Duress, Hypnotic Specter, Dark Ritual, Mongoose, Vindicate, Strip Mine and on
Also, Deprive is a counterspell with a not so great drawback.
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Standard
Boring...
Modern WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
Yep, the format needs a bit more of nonbasic land hate (and this comes from a Tron player). Not to the point is completely kills the greedy manabased and consequently the diversity. But having almost every top deck being a 3/4 color goodstuff.dec isn't that fun too.
I have a bunch of allied fetchlands and don't see why they should have to be reprinted to be in Modern. They should have just allowed Onslaught to begin with, and why not Oddyssey and Invasion too.
I have a bunch of allied fetchlands and don't see why they should have to be reprinted to be in Modern. They should have just allowed Onslaught to begin with, and why not Oddyssey and Invasion too.
Can you imagine how expensive Onslaught fetchs would be right now if that was the case. These lands need a reprint one way or another
A card like Ruination is way too strong. It would reduce diversity. (Tron would have to run blue for instance and it's splashable and not prevented well by discard).
Some people have suggested running fetch land hosers like Ankh of Mishra.
Agreed that Ruination (and Back to Basics) are a bit too punitive. Additionally, fetch lands avoid nearly all forms of non-basic land hate.
If WotC had either:
A. Made fetch lands only crackable at Sorcery Speed
B. Not made the damn shock lands have basic land types
This wouldn't be an issue. But alas, here we are. I don't honestly know what the answer is, except MOAR CARD LIEK Aven Mindcensor.
Edit: While Dust Bowl and Hidden Herd are both fine power level wise, I think any reprinted non-basic hosers should be global ala blood moon as opposed to targeted. Otherwise we're just going to have people using non-basics to power targeted non-basic hate. So while I think Price and Ruination are a bit much, I think any hosers printed should be mechanically closer to them than Dust Bowl or Hidden Herd
Example:
Neo Hidden Herd
G
Enchantment
Whenever a player plays a non basic land, that player chooses an opponent. That opponent puts a 2/2 beat token onto the battlefield under his or her control.
Obviously, adjusted to an appropriate power level.
Blue Counter UU
instant
Counter target spell. Skip your next draw step.
? Would it be okay ? Or is the drawback not good enough.
I don't want Counterspell reprinted. I played during draw-go, I played during high tide and even Psychatog, Prosbloom era, Compulsion...Things like Counterspell narrow the field and reduce creativity.
The same goes though for the other power-1's and 2's.
Every deck now either needs DRS or a way to survive it. Every deck needs Snapcaster or a way to survive it. Every deck either needs Bolt or a way to survive it. Every deck needs Goyf or a way to survive it. Every deck either needs Tectonic Edge, or a way to survive it.
I think we're in the same mess. The top 3-4 decks are completely suffocating, netdec.'d, and over-represented. Just because none of them are straight blue permission decks doesn't mean they are less harmful.
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I don't have any bones to pick with anyone, and I hope you don't take offense to me responding directly to just one statement but there seems to be a common occurrence when people discuss Modern: "You will never see X or Y card because that's not how Wizards wants to approach the format."
What anybody has to accept out of that statement is a truth that I disagree with, and that is we are accepting the way Wizards is taking the format is for the better. So far there have been countless reasons given not by just certain individuals, but droves of communities to take certain course of actions with regards to Modern. Bitterblossom, JTMS, Ancestral Vision, at least Preordain, Wild Nacatl, and Green Sun Zenith. These cards have counters to them, but there is this misappropriated disdain for any card that is printed with "Counter target spell" by very vocal populations in the Magic community. Why do those who appreciate the true aspect of what Counter Spells do have to be subjugated into playing non-blue strategies to accomplish any form of control?
What I mean by that statement is this: "A Counter: A thing that opposes or prevents something else." Goblin Electromancer is a counter to Thalia for Instants and Sorceries. Leyline of the Sanctity is a counter to all targeted red burn spells and discard. There have been multiple printings of various forms of grave hate to assemble a list of counters to graveyard strategies.
So with the advent of the printing of even more powerful cards that are being designed to be cheaper to cast, we will eventually get to the point where so many cards do so many things that there are no longer catch-alls and only silver bullets for specific cards. That means I will have to dedicate 3-4 Mindbreak Traps, 4 Leylines, 3 Stony Silence, 2-4 Shadow of Doubts in the sideboard because the only way I can answer a specific mechanic is for Wizards to print cards like Glaring Spotlight to deal with certain narrow strategies.
UWR saw a lot of success this past weekend at GP Portland. I was in attendance, and I tested rigorously for the event. UWR Control utilizes tempo mechanics to achieve a long drawn out game of attrition and accumulating minimal card advantage until they have the critical mass of mana and cards to overwhelm the opponent. That is what control is reduced to in this format, being a tempo deck that doesn't even attempt to apply pressure early game and hope to hell that they draw all the removal spells they need because the only decks that are allowed to exist are creature based.
If a counter existed would we need to have banned seething song? How about Second Sunrise? If Bloodbraid Elf had something to counter could that also exist? What if all these cards could someday be unbanned like Valakut because the environment is ripe for it? Can we not just arrive at that time by catalyzing that environment instead of just dismissing it?
What does Counterspell counter? It isn't a Stifle, not even a Force of Will, not a Wasteland, not a card that breaks the boundaries of the Magic universe. It allows for cards to exist while it can Counter it. We don't need it now... because Wizards is just going to make Counterspell unnecessary. Yup, I don't think I've come to such a low opinion of something like this until now.
The problem isn't that it's blue. The problem is that blue is the only colour that wins on the stack. There need to be avenues for other colours to shut down spells on the stack, and the method I proposed was giving other colours conditional counters. There should be counters in green, red, black, and white. They don't need to be as strong as blue counters, in the same way that black and white removal tends to be the best, but they need to exist so that balanced interactions can occur on both axes of the game (battlefield and stack).
WHY? does blue also need Path? Does green need Thoughtseize?
Blue can only bounce stuff from the board,countering spells is blue's way to do it's stuff, just as red burns your face and has bolt, black strips your hand and has Thoughtseize and IoK, white exiles your creatures and has Path and green doesn't care and eats you with a giant Tarmogoyf.
Most of these are also legacy staples, whereas Countespell only sees fringe play, while at the same time apparently being "too powerful" for Modern, meanwhile, you'll even see all these cards in the same freaking deck. What about blue? Remand? Mana Leak? Where are blue's super efficient cheap spells?
You're missing my point. I'm not saying that blue should get Path, or green needs thoughtseize. I'm talking about functionality. Let's look at it this way:
Bolt, unsummon, path, terminate, go for the throat, prey upon, beast within, and any fight mechanic: these are all members of the same type. They are all removal mechanics that fit within that colour. They take a creature off the battlefield, at instant speed. Blue doesn't need path, because it has unsummon, and unsummon fits its identity more. It has that functionality, same as any other colour.
Now we have draw: puresteel paladin, wall of omens, garruk, harmonize, sphinx's revelation, faithless looting, blue sun's zenith, dark confidant, phyrexian arena, necropotence, sign in blood, desperate ravings, burning inquiry. Again, these are all the same type: they let you dig into your deck, in a way that fits with the colour's identity.
How about tutoring? enlightened tutor, mystical tutor, diabolical tutor, vampiric tutor, reshape, trinket mage, treasure mage, mwonvuli beast tracker, green sun's zenith. Again, these are all the same basic type.
Now apply this logic to counterspells, and you'll find that almost all of them are blue. Blue is the colour that wins on the stack, and there are no other colours that are able to reliably fulfil this functionality. Counterspell, cancel, mana leak, mana drain, remand, etc. are all blue. You have mana tithe, judge's familiar, and frontline medic in white, but there needs to be a greater crossover.
I'm not arguing that all colours need to be the same, but I believe that opening counters up to other colours will allow for more balanced design space. Think about this:
GREEN COUNTER X1GG
Creature
Flash
When GREEN COUNTER enters the battlefield, counter target spell unless its controller pays 1+X.
X/X
So you get a soft counter if X=0, and it's on a creature, which fits green's theme. This would make a terrible blue counter, but as a green counter it might be okay. Or how about this:
BLACK COUNTER BB
Instant
Counter target spell. You lose X life, where X is equal to that spell's converted mana cost.
Or:
BLACK COUNTER 1BB
Enchantment
Flash
As an additional cost to cast ~, discard a card from your hand. When ~ enters the battlefield, counter target spell.
BBB: sacrifice ~, counter target spells unless its controller discards a card.
Enchantments are a black thing, particularly flash enchantments. You get to counter two spells with it, but it requires you to discard, and the second time is both telegraphed, and a soft counter that fits in with black's theme.
RED COUNTER 1RR
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller takes damage equal that spell's converted mana cost.
not great early game, but powerful late game. Definitely wouldn't fit blue, but would probably fit red.
WHITE COUNTER 2WW
Enchantment
Flash
When WHITE COUNTER enters the battlefield, counter all spells not named WHITE COUNTER currently on the stack.
WW, exile WHITE COUNTER: return target spell to its owner's hand.
White sets rules. You counter their spells, it counters all spells, including its own.
See how these are all examples of fulfilling functionality without necessarily being the same? All I'm saying is, I think making counters a part of every colour would restore a bit of balance to the game. Every colour could compete with blue (to an extent), and there would hence be nothing wrong with having spells like counterspell around, since it could be answered by other colours. In fact, this could open the game up to the return of cards like foil, that keep combo in check, not to mention, lead to the creation of new archetypes in different colours.
It is. Effectiveness is not part of the discussion, only the macro type. As I stated earlier, unsummon interacts with a creature on the battlefield, and removes it from the battlefield. It doesn't kill it, but it's definitely removal, and operates along the same line of play as Path, Bolt, Terminate etc. Sure, you'd rather use Path, but in a tempo deck, for example, there's functionally very little difference.
Compare this to counterspell; the only thing it has in common with bolt and other removal spells, is that it puts things into the graveyard. By that definition, mill would also count as removal, and I don't think any sane person would argue that this is the case.
So by your reckoning, remand isn't a counterspell then, since it doesn't send the card to the graveyard? This is about forms of interaction, not where the spell ends up. Sure, there's a discussion to be had regarding how useful a card is in a given context, but that doesn't tell us much about what type of card it is. For that, we need to look at the zone it acts on, and the type of interaction it creates.
And where did I state that mana leak is too strong for standard? Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that there's a facet of the game that only blue has access to, and things would improve if other colours were able to interact along the same axis. This would mean we could potentially get stronger spells in general, and -gasp- maybe even conditionally free counters that can keep combo in check. Not moving counters into other colours creates the problem that legacy has, where everyone is forced to play blue just to stop unfair decks from doing their thing, and Wizard's explicitly wants to avoid that. Their solution has been to ban cards that create unfair interactions, and we've all seen how well that's been going.
Merged
I don't know how old you are or if you played through the epoch of draw go magic but I thinking you didn't because I doubt we'd be having this conversation if you did.
So you want an unrestricted counterable decay to compare to counterspell? First of all, your proving my point by doing a hypothetical with a card that would be an auto include in every competitive deck that could support it. Second, your super decay still does nothing to protect you or your board state from instances and sorceries. Counterspell would still be equal or perhaps still more powerful than said card. The only way to make a removal spell as strong as Counterspell is take Vindicate and cut one mana. Now you have something close to counterspell.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
IoK, Thoughtseize, Deathrite, Bolt are ALL played more in Legacy. In fact I can think of two decks off the top of my head that play more than a jank copy of Counterspell at any given time.
here's what Coutnerspell would do to modern; This guy's UWR Midrange/Twin/Teachings deck is blue majority, -3 mana leak + 3 Counterspell
That is it. Now do we need Counterspell? I'll bet dollars to donuts that a Counterspell reprint would do nothing for control, slightly strengthen a few combo decks and be all around insignificant.
Let's focus on things modern actually NEEDS. Like a better way to deal with nonbasic lands, =\
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
What i wanted to illustrate is the point that you seem to keep missing about how removal and counterspells relate to each other. You have to stay open for a counter or it becomes a dead card in respect to what's on the board. The fact that you can counter a permanent spell doesn't mean you have an answer to any permanent. You have an answer to SPELLS, as in "as it's being cast". Super decay would be way more broken because it doesn't have that huge restriction wich counters have by default.
I started playing on Invasion extended. We had Mana leak, and both counterspell and brainstorm, and the creatures sucked compared to what modern has now, and you still wouldn't see everyone running blue by any means.
And counterspell isn't dangerous because of what it would slide into but rather what would be spawned from it. Modern does not need a hard counter at 2 mana.
Infallible you are right about the not having enough nonbasic or any land hate in general. A reprint of wasteland would be nice but its so broken it'll never happen.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
It's fine that these decks exist. What's not fine is that manabases are not punished by the cards in the card pool itself. Currently, the only thing keeping the 4-5C decks at bay is aggro. You can't play a 5 color manabase without double-bolting yourself by turn 4, and that's not always a good game plan. But in any other matchup, 4-5C decks can exist with impunity.
Modern needs some reprints to rein in manabases. Wasteland is obviously too powerful, and Tectonic Edge is obviously too terrible. Thankfully, there are a lot of reprints that punish nonbasics without being too over the top. Some of these cards would be more effective at punishing nonbasics (Back to Basics) than others (Encroach). But all of them are options to consider. They are listed in order of least to most powerful:
Let's just start with the last card on the list, and the most powerful. Price is almost assuredly too broken for Modern. Against most decks, that card is basically 2 mana for 8+ damage, which is probably too punitive. It would definitely push burn and red-based Zoo strategies over the top.
Ruination, Back to Basics, and Dust Bowl are much tamer options. All of them, especially Bowl and BtB, go into a certain type of control strategy that is currently absent from Modern. They bring metagame balance by helping archetypes that are underrepresented. Ruination is particularly interesting because it can act as a one-sided armageddon, thus enabling a bunch of mono R or Rx strategies.
Any of these cards except probably Encroach and Primal Order would have a big effect on Modern. And I don't think that any of them except Price are too crazy.
If I had to pick just one from the list, it would be Back to Basics, a card that would enable enough new decks without instantly slotting into existing ones. Dust Bowl is a close second, but that card is so niche that I worry it would not have enough metagame effect.
The thing that your missing is by and large counterspell is an answer to any permanent. Enchantment you can't deal with, counterspell, creature to big or fast or evasive, counterspell, artifact, counterspell, equipment, counterspell, instant, counterspell, sorcery, counterspell, planeswalker, counterspell. It answers everything for UU, all you need to know is the interactions your opponent is trying to capitalize on. Think of it like an investment plan. The smart guy plans ahead and sees the problems before they become probelms (counterspell). The not so smart guy still sees the problem but defers it to a later date (spot removal). What happens on that later date when two or three more problems arise or interact with the first one? A lot of times your SOL.
Its also important to remember Modern is suppose to be a 4 turn format. Games aren't gonna last that long to begin with. Its why 1 mana removal is considered optimal. Its also why Mana Leak should be fine as well. It's usually nearly a hard counter through turn 5. And its still considered really good. Now imagine a counter through turn 15 (if you ever see 15 turns lol) that is as solid at 15 as it was at turn 2.
The other thing to take into account is there was no snapcaster, no delver, no GoST when counterspell was legal. Two of these are big aggro cards, which U never had until recently. The other turns your 4 counterspells into 8.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Er, no. The other guy gets turns into cryptic command by counterspell. There's a difference.
Also... Blue has had aggro cards. Fish has been a thing for ages.
That said, I think there are other counterspells that could be reprinted that would be nice. I kinda like complicate though I'm not totally sure what it would do (or if it would even be played). I also really like prohibit. You can't rely on only prohibits because it misses liliana, exarch, and pod and many others, but it would still be pretty nice to have.
There's also things like absorb and undermine. I'm not sure it's better than counterflux, which is mainboardable (and I do play 1-2 of them) but it's in different colors. Dromar's Charm would be a real sweet one for decks that could play it. I'm not sure if Forbid would be too good, but I don't think it would be broken because there's not much in the way of good repeatable card-drawing that goes on currently.
My decks:
-Modern UWR gifts control
-Modern Mono-G aggro elves
-Azami, Lady of Scrolls EDH
-Glissa the Traitor EDH
-Modern UWR Counterbalance Control
-Modern UW enchantment control: primer, on tapped out
-Modern regular UWR control
Kill the mana base and you kill the format. The appeal is playing the greedy mana bases. Blood moon is available and its rarely played.
Counter spell is better later then mana leak. But I agree it would do little to the format.
You don't understand the significance when i say counterspell is not at answer to permanents as much as an answer to SPELLS. Thoughtseize costs B and 2 life, and it can do all that too, and more, as you also get valuable information, but you have to play it before them, wich in turn, is still more flexible than if you have to play it exactly WHEN they play it.
You are right, mana leak is good through turn 5, or if you're not against Tron, and then it's kinda lame. Bolt is equally good all game long. How good would a Bolt unless you pay 3 be in comparison? I don't need to imagine how countespell would be. I actually know what it does and how strong it is, I know it would be a 4-of that ppl would seek to play often, but so are so many other cards.
When counterspell was legal we didn't have snapcasters, wich i agree could be a thing, but there also weren't Lilis and IoKs killing you hand, or Tarmos that were always bigger than what you could handle, or Bolts killing all your stuff or having you at half life on turn 3, or Karns on the 3rd land drop. Counterspell would, by comparison, actually be weaker in Modern now than what it was in extended when it was legal.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Some people have suggested running fetch land hosers like Ankh of Mishra.
But there were Hymn, Duress, Hypnotic Specter, Dark Ritual, Mongoose, Vindicate, Strip Mine and on
Also, Deprive is a counterspell with a not so great drawback.
Boring...
Modern
WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB
RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH
XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED
GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
Can you imagine how expensive Onslaught fetchs would be right now if that was the case. These lands need a reprint one way or another
Agreed that Ruination (and Back to Basics) are a bit too punitive. Additionally, fetch lands avoid nearly all forms of non-basic land hate.
If WotC had either:
A. Made fetch lands only crackable at Sorcery Speed
B. Not made the damn shock lands have basic land types
This wouldn't be an issue. But alas, here we are. I don't honestly know what the answer is, except MOAR CARD LIEK Aven Mindcensor.
Edit: While Dust Bowl and Hidden Herd are both fine power level wise, I think any reprinted non-basic hosers should be global ala blood moon as opposed to targeted. Otherwise we're just going to have people using non-basics to power targeted non-basic hate. So while I think Price and Ruination are a bit much, I think any hosers printed should be mechanically closer to them than Dust Bowl or Hidden Herd
Example:
Neo Hidden Herd
G
Enchantment
Whenever a player plays a non basic land, that player chooses an opponent. That opponent puts a 2/2 beat token onto the battlefield under his or her control.
Obviously, adjusted to an appropriate power level.
Blue Counter UU
instant
Counter target spell. Skip your next draw step.
? Would it be okay ? Or is the drawback not good enough.
I don't want Counterspell reprinted. I played during draw-go, I played during high tide and even Psychatog, Prosbloom era, Compulsion...Things like Counterspell narrow the field and reduce creativity.
The same goes though for the other power-1's and 2's.
Every deck now either needs DRS or a way to survive it. Every deck needs Snapcaster or a way to survive it. Every deck either needs Bolt or a way to survive it. Every deck needs Goyf or a way to survive it. Every deck either needs Tectonic Edge, or a way to survive it.
I think we're in the same mess. The top 3-4 decks are completely suffocating, netdec.'d, and over-represented. Just because none of them are straight blue permission decks doesn't mean they are less harmful.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein