Ashiok has been working well in UB and Esper control decks from what I have seen.
As somebody noted a week or so ago, you want to build your interaction with an opponent with the philosophy Recoil.
That is why you are seeing Liliana, Jace and other cards being used with Ashiok. I have seen engines that get people to discard cards, return cards to hand/library or some combination of both.
I have been testing something similar to memorylapses, but I splash white to ensure I can hardcast leyline of sanctity, Azorius Charm, and possibly Oust/Path to exile.
Ashiok has been working well in UB and Esper control decks from what I have seen.
As somebody noted a week or so ago, you want to build your interaction with an opponent with the philosophy Recoil.
That is why you are seeing Liliana, Jace and other cards being used with Ashiok. I have seen engines that get people to discard cards, return cards to hand/library or some combination of both.
I have been testing something similar to memorylapses, but I splash white to ensure I can hardcast leyline of sanctity, Azorius Charm, and possibly Oust/Path to exile.
Check out my primer thread in deck creation. I show a list where I have Tezzeret + a modest toolbox in place. You can tutor up a Witchbane Orb if needed. This releases me from the dependence on white mana for Leyline. But yes I agree, a Leyline / Witchbane effect is needed in a deck attempting to lock the board so if you are more comfortable with white mana I understand why.
Count me in the party that underestimated Ashiok. It's definitely a good card. It's a little more matchup dependent than Liliana, but he surprisingly good in creature matchups.
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So far from what I am seeing Ashiok isnt a powerhouse on his own unless played early against a control deck, but in conjunction with other cards he becomes a very key piece, and quite strong. Is anyone else getting this feeling?
Exiling is better than straight up mill for sure since you don't risk giving them gas. I'm just wondering if it can be considered disruption for the same reason mill isn't really disruption. You don't know what you're going to exile. It could just as easily be cards they need or don't need.
Most of the cases I've seen so far amount to presupposing a favorable board state, which is far from guaranteed.
Thats not true at all. Birthing Pod is terrible by itself but when used with the proper creatures and board state you can just win out of no where.
Also you could say the same thing about Liliana, she only really shines if she is Played very early, or when you are slightly ahead. Sure at worst she is a 3 mana edict, and gains a little life, but I think Ashiok could be just as relevant.
I think Ashiok will potentially be able to provide a little extra umph behind some BUG lists, and Esper control decks. Potentially making Control even stronger in Modern.
Most of the cases I've seen so far amount to presupposing a favorable board state, which is far from guaranteed.
Not exactly. He is positioned to be a finisher in a deck that create a stable board state. Every deck that creates a board lock needs a card to actually end the game and Ashiok is a 3cc walker that does exactly that.
My issue with Ashiok is that Ashiok comes off like a leftover from the "'cool' ideas for Dimir fans, because Dimir fans loooooooooove mill" folder.
You know, I completely understand that there are a thousand ways to combine blue and black and come out with a card that's just too good to let slide. I understand that Planeswalker abilities are part of their identity, and you can only have so much overlap before you encroach on what makes Jace and Liliana individually unique...
What floors me is that it has to be mill.
WITH A TITLE LIKE "NIGHTMARE WEAVER," I FEEL IT'S WITHIN MY RIGHT TO HAVE LOBOTOMY ON A STICK.
OR, I DUNNO, AT LEAST CONJURE THINGS THAT ARE IN THEIR HAND, WHICH SYMBOLIZES THEIR IMMEDIATE THOUGHTS AND MENTAL CONTENTS, AS OPPOSED TO THEIR LIBRARY, THE REPRESENTATION OF THEIR TOTAL KNOWLEDGE FROM WHICH THEY DRAW ON ALBEIT IN INCREMENTAL CHUNKS.
I MEAN SURE, NIGHTMARES ARE MORE LIKELY TO DWELL WITHIN THE RECESSES OF ONE'S MIND, AND THUS YOU HAVE A FLAVOR EXPLOSION WHEN IT COMES TO THE -X ABILITY, BUT SERIOUSLY WIZARDS. SERIOUSLY.
:|
To put it in more simple terms, for 3cmc I feel I'd rather want to resolve Jace Beleren or LiliVeil. More power to the mill deck archetype, but pls Wizards, I'd like UB value spells too without having to rebuild my pile into a Drownyard deck...
Though, considering that card evaluation is one of those things that people innately suck at (because, y'know, people are bad at Magic and all), I could be totally wrong in my attitude towards Ashiok...
What about playing him in some sort of Vedalken Shackles deck? The problem that comes to mind is that Abrupt Decay hoses both.
Seems good. You cant not build a deck because of one card. The decks that do play it its only a 1 or 2 of. Never 3 or 4 in the 75. I like it though. Shackles, Ashiok, Liliana, ect.
I've already stated my opinions on the card, but let me just say this: You do not need to have the board locked down for Ashiok to be good. You don't need leylines and e-bridges and whatnot. A single Tarmogoyf can hold the fort for plenty of time, even against the most aggressive of decks (except affinity, where I willingly conceded that I board her out).
Remember, its not like you're playing land->go for turns 1 and two, then landing her. You play things, Deathrite-->Bob-->Ashiok is a very threat riddled curve on its own. Or the controlling route IoK-->Abrupt-->Ashiok. These aren't Magical Christmas land scenarios.
People are severely underrating Ashiok's power. In the format chock full of powerful 3cmc and less creatures in nearly every deck, Ashiok shines. She may not be amazing against Tron, but Scavenging ooze and Abrupt Decay are pretty bad against tron too, yet they are some of the most played cards right now. Ashiok has the chance to be "Suspend 2 1UBWurmcoil Engine" Not super common, but at the same time you can rid them of extra tron pieces (making LD more effective), Eye of Ugins, or Eldrazi, all cards you don't want to face.
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Ashiok is one of those cards that's not very good in standard but better in modern due to the low-cost, high-impact creatures everywhere. It still seems a bit slow when you're not playing first though.
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Now I wouldn't say he is amazing in Standard. To be honest I think he is just much better in Modern.
I must agree with Pork here. Modern just has a crazy amount of insanely powerful cmc3 or less dudes. Many of standard's best creatures are 3+cmc.
In modern you can grab a goyf. in standard, for the same loyalty, you get, wait for it, fleecemane lion. Whoopdee-fricken-doo.
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I must agree with Pork here. Modern just has a crazy amount of insanely powerful cmc3 or less dudes. Many of standard's best creatures are 3+cmc.
In modern you can grab a goyf. in standard, for the same loyalty, you get, wait for it, fleecemane lion. Whoopdee-fricken-doo.
In Standard the decks that have Ashiok in it don't really get much out of having a fleecemane lion. As Tinfoil Hat has showed. But the decks that use Ashiok in Modern really benefit from having a Tarmogyf, Bob, Ooze... hell even Resto.
Have you even tried playing this deck to realize how bad it is?
You lose to combo, control, aggro, and tempo. You might have a shot against midrange, and that's if you get lucky off your other cards, not what Ashiok does. It is very, very, VERY easy to deal 5 damage turn 3 or turn 4 in Modern through discards.
Ashiok has no place in Modern, at least not in main deck. If you drop a turn 3 Ashiok, you're asking to lose to 50% of the meta.
Have you even tried playing this deck to realize how bad it is?
You lose to combo, control, aggro, and tempo. You might have a shot against midrange, and that's if you get lucky off your other cards, not what Ashiok does. It is very, very, VERY easy to deal 5 damage turn 3 or turn 4 in Modern through discards.
Ashiok has no place in Modern, at least not in main deck. If you drop a turn 3 Ashiok, you're asking to lose to 50% of the meta.
Thats pretty harsh.
Also I think you are wrong. What evidence do you have that this loses to combo, aggro, and control? I dont know of many combo decks that can work properly with 6 targeted discard spells, counter spells, and 4 Lilianas also attacking their hand. Same with Control, and Ashiok brings another way of attacking control lists.
Oh man its very easy to deal 5 damage to my planewalker, guess I shouldnt play Liliana of the Veil either. She must be terrible. Who cares if they do 5 damage to Ashiok? That is 4 for 1ing your opponent (exiling 3 cards plus all the cards they used to kill him just in case you couldnt figure that out). If they are using removal spells or burn on Ashiok, then your Goyfs and Deathrites live. I dont know about you but I would be okay with that. If they kill your creatures Ashiok threatens to take over the game.
Sure its bad against Affinity, and probably most other high aggro decks, but besides affinity how many aggressive decks are out there. Mono red? Meh, that deck isnt super good anyway.
Also just by saying I "might" have a chance against midrange decks that pretty good considering most of the top 8s of GPs, and other major tournaments have had at least 3 BGx midrange decks.
If Ashiok reliably 4-for-1'd opponents (and 3-for-1'd per +2), I'd expect him/her to be a lot better against combo and Tron than she turned out to be in my testing. S/he turned out to be fairly bad against combo and even worse against Tron. It takes forever on average to hit a fatty in Mono-U Tron (4 out of 60 cards), and Tron tends to win fast enough to ignore Ashiok's mill clock.
Also, Liliana OTV makes it significantly harder for opponents to deal 5 damage to her by making them lose a creature. Ashiok can't and has to survive long enough to get out a creature.
Jesus Christ mang so much blind speculation. Test her. You will see ashiok is actually good in this midrange dominated format. And no, you don't land->go twice then play ashiok. You INTERACT with your opponent, or lay out threats or, heaven forbid, you have a sick turn two ashiok off deathrite. With 5 loyalty she is actually incredibly hard to deal with, provided you're actually participating in the game by playing, idk tarmogoyfs and abrupt decays?
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As somebody noted a week or so ago, you want to build your interaction with an opponent with the philosophy Recoil.
That is why you are seeing Liliana, Jace and other cards being used with Ashiok. I have seen engines that get people to discard cards, return cards to hand/library or some combination of both.
I have been testing something similar to memorylapses, but I splash white to ensure I can hardcast leyline of sanctity, Azorius Charm, and possibly Oust/Path to exile.
Check out my primer thread in deck creation. I show a list where I have Tezzeret + a modest toolbox in place. You can tutor up a Witchbane Orb if needed. This releases me from the dependence on white mana for Leyline. But yes I agree, a Leyline / Witchbane effect is needed in a deck attempting to lock the board so if you are more comfortable with white mana I understand why.
I'm still not sure about it.
Most of the cases I've seen so far amount to presupposing a favorable board state, which is far from guaranteed.
Thats not true at all. Birthing Pod is terrible by itself but when used with the proper creatures and board state you can just win out of no where.
Also you could say the same thing about Liliana, she only really shines if she is Played very early, or when you are slightly ahead. Sure at worst she is a 3 mana edict, and gains a little life, but I think Ashiok could be just as relevant.
I think Ashiok will potentially be able to provide a little extra umph behind some BUG lists, and Esper control decks. Potentially making Control even stronger in Modern.
Not exactly. He is positioned to be a finisher in a deck that create a stable board state. Every deck that creates a board lock needs a card to actually end the game and Ashiok is a 3cc walker that does exactly that.
You know, I completely understand that there are a thousand ways to combine blue and black and come out with a card that's just too good to let slide. I understand that Planeswalker abilities are part of their identity, and you can only have so much overlap before you encroach on what makes Jace and Liliana individually unique...
What floors me is that it has to be mill.
WITH A TITLE LIKE "NIGHTMARE WEAVER," I FEEL IT'S WITHIN MY RIGHT TO HAVE LOBOTOMY ON A STICK.
OR, I DUNNO, AT LEAST CONJURE THINGS THAT ARE IN THEIR HAND, WHICH SYMBOLIZES THEIR IMMEDIATE THOUGHTS AND MENTAL CONTENTS, AS OPPOSED TO THEIR LIBRARY, THE REPRESENTATION OF THEIR TOTAL KNOWLEDGE FROM WHICH THEY DRAW ON ALBEIT IN INCREMENTAL CHUNKS.
I MEAN SURE, NIGHTMARES ARE MORE LIKELY TO DWELL WITHIN THE RECESSES OF ONE'S MIND, AND THUS YOU HAVE A FLAVOR EXPLOSION WHEN IT COMES TO THE -X ABILITY, BUT SERIOUSLY WIZARDS. SERIOUSLY.
:|
To put it in more simple terms, for 3cmc I feel I'd rather want to resolve Jace Beleren or LiliVeil. More power to the mill deck archetype, but pls Wizards, I'd like UB value spells too without having to rebuild my pile into a Drownyard deck...
Though, considering that card evaluation is one of those things that people innately suck at (because, y'know, people are bad at Magic and all), I could be totally wrong in my attitude towards Ashiok...
Seems good. You cant not build a deck because of one card. The decks that do play it its only a 1 or 2 of. Never 3 or 4 in the 75. I like it though. Shackles, Ashiok, Liliana, ect.
Remember, its not like you're playing land->go for turns 1 and two, then landing her. You play things, Deathrite-->Bob-->Ashiok is a very threat riddled curve on its own. Or the controlling route IoK-->Abrupt-->Ashiok. These aren't Magical Christmas land scenarios.
People are severely underrating Ashiok's power. In the format chock full of powerful 3cmc and less creatures in nearly every deck, Ashiok shines. She may not be amazing against Tron, but Scavenging ooze and Abrupt Decay are pretty bad against tron too, yet they are some of the most played cards right now. Ashiok has the chance to be "Suspend 2 1UB Wurmcoil Engine" Not super common, but at the same time you can rid them of extra tron pieces (making LD more effective), Eye of Ugins, or Eldrazi, all cards you don't want to face.
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yikes.
Veritas. Aequitas.
Now I wouldn't say he is amazing in Standard. To be honest I think he is just much better in Modern.
I must agree with Pork here. Modern just has a crazy amount of insanely powerful cmc3 or less dudes. Many of standard's best creatures are 3+cmc.
In modern you can grab a goyf. in standard, for the same loyalty, you get, wait for it, fleecemane lion. Whoopdee-fricken-doo.
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In Standard the decks that have Ashiok in it don't really get much out of having a fleecemane lion. As Tinfoil Hat has showed. But the decks that use Ashiok in Modern really benefit from having a Tarmogyf, Bob, Ooze... hell even Resto.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
I dont totally agree with this. I think BUG could now become a thing with Ashiok in it. Here is a sample list I have thought of
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Liliana, of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Mana Leak
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Creeping Tarpit
2 Treetop Village
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Have you even tried playing this deck to realize how bad it is?
You lose to combo, control, aggro, and tempo. You might have a shot against midrange, and that's if you get lucky off your other cards, not what Ashiok does. It is very, very, VERY easy to deal 5 damage turn 3 or turn 4 in Modern through discards.
Ashiok has no place in Modern, at least not in main deck. If you drop a turn 3 Ashiok, you're asking to lose to 50% of the meta.
Thats pretty harsh.
Also I think you are wrong. What evidence do you have that this loses to combo, aggro, and control? I dont know of many combo decks that can work properly with 6 targeted discard spells, counter spells, and 4 Lilianas also attacking their hand. Same with Control, and Ashiok brings another way of attacking control lists.
Oh man its very easy to deal 5 damage to my planewalker, guess I shouldnt play Liliana of the Veil either. She must be terrible. Who cares if they do 5 damage to Ashiok? That is 4 for 1ing your opponent (exiling 3 cards plus all the cards they used to kill him just in case you couldnt figure that out). If they are using removal spells or burn on Ashiok, then your Goyfs and Deathrites live. I dont know about you but I would be okay with that. If they kill your creatures Ashiok threatens to take over the game.
Sure its bad against Affinity, and probably most other high aggro decks, but besides affinity how many aggressive decks are out there. Mono red? Meh, that deck isnt super good anyway.
Also just by saying I "might" have a chance against midrange decks that pretty good considering most of the top 8s of GPs, and other major tournaments have had at least 3 BGx midrange decks.
Also, Liliana OTV makes it significantly harder for opponents to deal 5 damage to her by making them lose a creature. Ashiok can't and has to survive long enough to get out a creature.
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