As far as I've been able to find, Beetle is the only card that can trigger Ordeal on turn 2. None of the other Ordeals are really worth much, but Nylea's seems pretty incredible if you can pull it off early enough, before your opponent has a chance to react.
The two cards together offer a very nice start: you get to attack for three on turn 2, you gain some card advantage, and you can accelerate to five on turn 3, which is practically unheard of without sacrificing a ton of tempo. Obviously, the trouble is that neither card fits in any other deck, and they're only good together, in first two turns of the game. And also, both cards are crazy vulnerable to removal.
As such, my question is, is it possible to find a deck that wants this start badly enough to run it? Some version of affinity would be my first guess, but I'm open to any ideas.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
I think thassa's could be great too. Need to fin another 1 drop with counters. Rqkdos cackler comes to mind, a turn slower but still attacking for three. Seems good for casual but too slow/inconsostant for modern unfortunately
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Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Any deck that uses these is going to have to recognize that it's a gambit that may not pay off, and therefore can't use cards that rely on the mana boost to work. What are some strong ways to capitalize on having 5 mana on turn 3, but that uses cards that don't depend on it? Stuff like Mikaeus, the Lunarch got played in Standard because of that flexibility, is there anything like that, that's worth it in Modern? Is Mistcutter Hydra any good?
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
There are a couple of cards with Modular that would be pretty cool (most importantly Arcbound Ravager), but it'd mean running a lot of them and that'd make for a very different kind of deck.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
Plays nice with Scute Mob, making your suite of 1-drop critters both must-answers and Swarmyard friendly.
Quickly brewed a list with the above, Heartwood Storyteller, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, Scavenging Ooze, Sword of Light+Shadow, and Beast Within. Wasn't really sure what I wanted to do with the deck, so the sideboard is filled with hate removal plus some Plow Unders for kicks.
Did a quick trio of matches in cockatrice, wound up again WUR flash, some Dega Deathrite/Sculler/Helix build, and G/R tron.
Tied or Won all of them, though I question how I was able to keep pulling the T2 Ordeal combo.
WUR: Swarmyards reduce the answers for the deck to Path of Exile. Sticking a Sword won the game handily. Lost the second game on account of drawing 8 Forests in a row, player could not stay long enough for the third. Would likely have lost.
Dega: Heh. Sword. His Tidehollow had to steal away my Heartwood to prevent me from just outscaling his hand attack, which left me with many fun toys to turn sideways with.
G/R Tron: It turns out that a resolved Plow Under warrants scooping.
Is this viable? Most certainly not. I only won those games because no one bothered to leave mana open to Bolt the Beetle, enabling Acid-Moss, Swords, and Plow to completely ruin their starts. If anyone actually took the Beetle as a legitimate threat, it would have stalled the deck out there.
Could we play more 2-3 drops in case Beetle fails? Sure, but then successful ramp rushes won't actually lead to significant gains ahead of the opponent.
Could we try Auratog for more Ordeal tech? Sure, and we can toss in Rancor, Ordeal of Thassa, etc. in while we're at it too. But then why aren't we playing Bogle?
Explosive Vegetation for 2 is cute, I'll give it that. Finding a curve that synergizes with this particular combo is really tricky.
Plays nice with Scute Mob, making your suite of 1-drop critters both must-answers and Swarmyard friendly.
Quickly brewed a list with the above, Heartwood Storyteller, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, Scavenging Ooze, Sword of Light+Shadow, and Beast Within. Wasn't really sure what I wanted to do with the deck, so the sideboard is filled with hate removal plus some Plow Unders for kicks.
Did a quick trio of matches in cockatrice, wound up again WUR flash, some Dega Deathrite/Sculler/Helix build, and G/R tron.
Tied or Won all of them, though I question how I was able to keep pulling the T2 Ordeal combo.
WUR: Swarmyards reduce the answers for the deck to Path of Exile. Sticking a Sword won the game handily. Lost the second game on account of drawing 8 Forests in a row, player could not stay long enough for the third. Would likely have lost.
Dega: Heh. Sword. His Tidehollow had to steal away my Heartwood to prevent me from just outscaling his hand attack, which left me with many fun toys to turn sideways with.
G/R Tron: It turns out that a resolved Plow Under warrants scooping.
Is this viable? Most certainly not. I only won those games because no one bothered to leave mana open to Bolt the Beetle, enabling Acid-Moss, Swords, and Plow to completely ruin their starts. If anyone actually took the Beetle as a legitimate threat, it would have stalled the deck out there.
Could we play more 2-3 drops in case Beetle fails? Sure, but then successful ramp rushes won't actually lead to significant gains ahead of the opponent.
Could we try Auratog for more Ordeal tech? Sure, and we can toss in Rancor, Ordeal of Thassa, etc. in while we're at it too. But then why aren't we playing Bogle?
Explosive Vegetation for 2 is cute, I'll give it that. Finding a curve that synergizes with this particular combo is really tricky.
Mutagenic Growth is another option for getting out of Bolt range, that'll actually work before our second turn. Inconsistent still, but it's an option.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
So the goal here is to ramp 2 lands by enchanting a creature, then attack 3 times with zero disruption? If you want ramp, just play ramp cards. If you want to attack for lots of damage, just play efficient creatures. This just seems like a 2 card combo that's end result is weaker than simply playing ramp spells or a creature like goyf.
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I think the point is that the beetle starts with two counters, so it would only need to attack once.
That said, I am not sure what this does that Lotus Cobra doesn't do better. And Lotus Cobra is pretty fringe already.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I think the point is that the beetle starts with two counters, so it would only need to attack once.
That said, I am not sure what this does that Lotus Cobra doesn't do better. And Lotus Cobra is pretty fringe already.
Even then, it's 2 cards to get 2 lands. This is pretty much the same as casting 2 farseeks, except it's 1 mana cheaper. The difference is for this "combo" you have to play 2 cards that are terrible when you can't combo them together, and it's also vulnerable to any removal in the format.
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Yes, those are both valid concerns - probably crippling ones, in fact - but the upside is way better than 2 Farseeks. Imagine if Farseek cost 1 mana, and had Kicker 1: put a 2/2 into play. This opener is slightly stronger than even that (since you actually get the creature on T1).
The opening is extremely strong when it happens. The difference between accelerating to 6 on turn 4 and accelerating to 5 on turn 3 is large. The problem is that it's inconsistent and highly disruptible, not that it's weak.
I'm pretty convinced at this point that there's no way to build a deck that can deal with those drawbacks effectively, though. In order to make the Ordeal playable at any other stage of the game you have to play with like 20 cards that make +1/+1 counters, and there just aren't enough of them that are competitive and fit in the same deck to justify it.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
My 2 cents... If Llanowar Reborn and Oran-rief the Vastwood wants to be on a deck that involves a +1/+1 counter, you want there to be more of it. You should add Vesuva in the deck.
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On the works: Leyline Deck Wins
:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
Ordeal of Nylea
As far as I've been able to find, Beetle is the only card that can trigger Ordeal on turn 2. None of the other Ordeals are really worth much, but Nylea's seems pretty incredible if you can pull it off early enough, before your opponent has a chance to react.
The two cards together offer a very nice start: you get to attack for three on turn 2, you gain some card advantage, and you can accelerate to five on turn 3, which is practically unheard of without sacrificing a ton of tempo. Obviously, the trouble is that neither card fits in any other deck, and they're only good together, in first two turns of the game. And also, both cards are crazy vulnerable to removal.
As such, my question is, is it possible to find a deck that wants this start badly enough to run it? Some version of affinity would be my first guess, but I'm open to any ideas.
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
Any deck that uses these is going to have to recognize that it's a gambit that may not pay off, and therefore can't use cards that rely on the mana boost to work. What are some strong ways to capitalize on having 5 mana on turn 3, but that uses cards that don't depend on it? Stuff like Mikaeus, the Lunarch got played in Standard because of that flexibility, is there anything like that, that's worth it in Modern? Is Mistcutter Hydra any good?
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Experiment One
4 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Llanowar Reborn
2 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
2 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
Anothe card that could be useful is Stromkirk Noble
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
Simic Initiate could be decent. It doesn't trigger after one attack on it's own, but it enables a lot of other creatures to do it.
Thinking about a couple other cards too: Cytoplast Rootkin, Storm Entity.
There are a couple of cards with Modular that would be pretty cool (most importantly Arcbound Ravager), but it'd mean running a lot of them and that'd make for a very different kind of deck.
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
Quickly brewed a list with the above, Heartwood Storyteller, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, Scavenging Ooze, Sword of Light+Shadow, and Beast Within. Wasn't really sure what I wanted to do with the deck, so the sideboard is filled with hate removal plus some Plow Unders for kicks.
Did a quick trio of matches in cockatrice, wound up again WUR flash, some Dega Deathrite/Sculler/Helix build, and G/R tron.
Tied or Won all of them, though I question how I was able to keep pulling the T2 Ordeal combo.
Dega: Heh. Sword. His Tidehollow had to steal away my Heartwood to prevent me from just outscaling his hand attack, which left me with many fun toys to turn sideways with.
G/R Tron: It turns out that a resolved Plow Under warrants scooping.
Is this viable? Most certainly not. I only won those games because no one bothered to leave mana open to Bolt the Beetle, enabling Acid-Moss, Swords, and Plow to completely ruin their starts. If anyone actually took the Beetle as a legitimate threat, it would have stalled the deck out there.
Could we play more 2-3 drops in case Beetle fails? Sure, but then successful ramp rushes won't actually lead to significant gains ahead of the opponent.
Could we try Auratog for more Ordeal tech? Sure, and we can toss in Rancor, Ordeal of Thassa, etc. in while we're at it too. But then why aren't we playing Bogle?
Explosive Vegetation for 2 is cute, I'll give it that. Finding a curve that synergizes with this particular combo is really tricky.
edit: graft?
The ordeal cards are really good if you can trigger them...but otherwise terrible...I'm sure there's a way.
Auratog looks good...bant ordeals?
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
Playing Simian Spirit Guide lets Aquastrand Spider work as a T2 option, also.
...Bloodhall Ooze? T1 Spirit Guide, Ooze, Slitherhead, T2 Ordeal, attack for 4, trigger Ordeal.
As I mentioned in that post, G/W Bogles does it strictly better. Gotta find some other avenue of usefulness.
That said, I am not sure what this does that Lotus Cobra doesn't do better. And Lotus Cobra is pretty fringe already.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
Even then, it's 2 cards to get 2 lands. This is pretty much the same as casting 2 farseeks, except it's 1 mana cheaper. The difference is for this "combo" you have to play 2 cards that are terrible when you can't combo them together, and it's also vulnerable to any removal in the format.
The opening is extremely strong when it happens. The difference between accelerating to 6 on turn 4 and accelerating to 5 on turn 3 is large. The problem is that it's inconsistent and highly disruptible, not that it's weak.
I'm pretty convinced at this point that there's no way to build a deck that can deal with those drawbacks effectively, though. In order to make the Ordeal playable at any other stage of the game you have to play with like 20 cards that make +1/+1 counters, and there just aren't enough of them that are competitive and fit in the same deck to justify it.
Assuming a 4-of of both components, you're only looking at around a 14.5% chance of it being in your non-mulligan opener.
Are you just going the pure beatdown route? I'd think you'd need to be more diverse than that.
Zoo decks need some form of reach to "get there".
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu: