Kitty would shift aggro to Zoo decks and SotM would shut them all down. Sounds like steps to no where.
I can see Sword of the Meek (but only because I love Delver decks and that card would kill them) being a problem, but it deserves testing. I still don't understand why you think that Affinity would die if Nacatl was unbanned. All Naya Zoo would get is another 1-drop. Even at Pro Tour Philadelphia, when fast combo decks that Affinity couldn't interact were prevalent and Punishing Fire was both hurting it and helping Zoo, Affinity was still the 4th most played deck. It might get played less, but it wouldn't stop being played.
Got to love how the same people who were complaining when there was one clear cut best deck and there were bans to bring that one deck back to the rest, are now complaining because there are a handful of top decks and they are upset because it doesnt look like any changes will be coming soon. Seems some just want a certain deck viable in the format and nothing else.
i'm still in the camp that DRS was too good to be printed (as an 0/1 and/or a mana filter i think it would have been fine). the meta hasn't changed in almost a year. instead of jund being obviously the best deck, now the 5 decks that have always been "the best" or near "the best" are "the best."
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
I can see Sword of the Meek (but only because I love Delver decks and that card would kill them) being a problem, but it deserves testing. I still don't understand why you think that Affinity would die if Nacatl was unbanned. All Naya Zoo would get is another 1-drop. Even at Pro Tour Philadelphia, when fast combo decks that Affinity couldn't interact were prevalent and Punishing Fire was both hurting it and helping Zoo, Affinity was still the 4th most played deck. It might get played less, but it wouldn't stop being played.
Zoo was played more then Affinity though. There is a bit more forgiveness with the deck. But adding SotM will just nullify them both. So its a no win for aggro all around.
Quote from germanturkey »
i'm still in the camp that DRS was too good to be printed (as an 0/1 and/or a mana filter i think it would have been fine). the meta hasn't changed in almost a year. instead of jund being obviously the best deck, now the 5 decks that have always been "the best" or near "the best" are "the best."
I am that way about all the cant be countered cards.
I dont think the meta should change that fast or that much. I agree control needs a boost but I dont feel anything on the ban list would give it that boost.
Seriously that someone really suggested to ban Leyline of Sanctity? Really, seriously? Someone to suggest that really have absolutely no idea what is modern.
I will try to belive this was a joke...
Back on topic, the continued success of Twin online suggests that Preordain is not coming off the list anytime soon. That's unfortunate for those who hoped for a card that could help out UWx Miracles and/or Storm. Earlier, I had supported Preordain's unbanning, but I would be worried about its improvement of a deck that is already quite strong.
With Daily Events back on MTGO, we can start to see how the metagame looks with all the 2013 GPs behind us. Preliminarily, it looks like a ton of Jund, Melira Pod, Twin, and Affinity. Control is just gone, with very few representatives over the past week. Aggro isn't doing too horribly, although it's definitely underrepresented relative to its ideal metagame share (probably somewhere around 25%).
I was backing Preordain unban. While i belive it's impact on twin will not be so great a it would be on other decks that needs it, the simple fact that preordain might help an already successful deck reduces it's change a lot.
Zoo was played more then Affinity though. There is a bit more forgiveness with the deck. But adding SotM will just nullify them both. So its a no win for aggro all around.
I will concede that Sword of the Meek could be a problem. That is why I think it needs to be tested, as I think it might be fine but might not be. And what you said about Naya Zoo being played more than Affinity is true, but that is very different from Nacatl forcing all other aggro decks out of the format. And you have to remember that Punishing Fire was legal at the time too, which Zoo both used and was able to ignore. Affinity loses horribly to Punishing Fire, as it relies on a bunch of creatures with 2 or less toughness to win. With Punishing Fire gone I believe that we would see at least 2 top tier aggro decks if Nacatl was unbanned.
Does sword of the meek really hose all other aggro decks? Or is it just better than the other ones so there would be no point in playing any other one?
Is AV really what control needs right now? I'm honestly curious. To me, AV reads "Drop an island turn one and play this: Get 3 more cards on turn 4." It's a terrible top deck, and I feel it would lose effectiveness in a game of Modern by about turn 3 with how fast the format is currently. Comparing that to Bob in Jund, which gets you a card a turn, makes it seem that Jund would still have an upper hand. Also, would AV give control the edge it needs against combo currently?
Is AV really what control needs right now? I'm honestly curious. To me, AV reads "Drop an island turn one and play this: Get 3 more cards on turn 4." It's a terrible top deck, and I feel it would lose effectiveness in a game of Modern by about turn 3 with how fast the format is currently. Comparing that to Bob in Jund, which gets you a card a turn, makes it seem that Jund would still have an upper hand. Also, would AV give control the edge it needs against combo currently?
I agree with this, but that is even more of a reason to unban it. I am inclined to believe that the reason why control isn't working in Modern isn't because of the banned list but because of the card pool. Fact or Fiction and Counterspell are cards that could make control playable by giving it a strong 2-mana counter and a much more powerful draw spell.
That card? Is that really the card you want BANNED in the format? A sideboard police card that is currently used in probably <10% of sideboards?
Please Wizards, give us a ban announcement soon so we don't have to endure discussion about banning LEYLINE OF SANCTITY. Things always slow down when we don't have news from Wizards, but this is truly a new low.
let me explain my rationale. I play 4 copies of leyline of sanctity on the sideboard my bogle deck, and every time i have them out i would get the exact same reaction. it's not that leyline of sanctity is unbeatable, but it does make the game less enjoyable. slowly i start believing that without leyline of sanctity the game might just get a lil more interesting that I actually took them out of my sideboard. it does sound very absurd, but that was what i observed.
let me explain my rationale. I play 4 copies of leyline of sanctity on the sideboard my bogle deck, and every time i have them out i would get the exact same reaction. it's not that leyline of sanctity is unbeatable, but it does make the game less enjoyable. slowly i start believing that without leyline of sanctity the game might just get a lil more interesting that I actually took them out of my sideboard. it does sound very absurd, but that was what i observed.
The problem is that spells that target players directly bypass all the traditional defenses. You either play Leyline, or you out-aggro them. Without Leyline they would be even stronger, and the alternatives are either easily removed or too slow to play. Leyline is a control card, and even better, it's a non-blue control card, something Modern badly needs.
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
let me explain my rationale. I play 4 copies of leyline of sanctity on the sideboard my bogle deck, and every time i have them out i would get the exact same reaction. it's not that leyline of sanctity is unbeatable, but it does make the game less enjoyable. slowly i start believing that without leyline of sanctity the game might just get a lil more interesting that I actually took them out of my sideboard. it does sound very absurd, but that was what i observed.
You play boggles and you think that leyline of sanctity makes it uninteractive? boggles decks are made to be uninteractive, thats why you play only hexproof creatures and enchantments, the problem is not leyline....
Is AV really what control needs right now? I'm honestly curious. To me, AV reads "Drop an island turn one and play this: Get 3 more cards on turn 4." It's a terrible top deck, and I feel it would lose effectiveness in a game of Modern by about turn 3 with how fast the format is currently. Comparing that to Bob in Jund, which gets you a card a turn, makes it seem that Jund would still have an upper hand. Also, would AV give control the edge it needs against combo currently?
Being slow is not a problem for control. Currently the problem with control is the lack of good CA sources. While it can gain time, it can't stand long, because can't refill the resources lost to gain that time.
let me explain my rationale. I play 4 copies of leyline of sanctity on the sideboard my bogle deck, and every time i have them out i would get the exact same reaction. it's not that leyline of sanctity is unbeatable, but it does make the game less enjoyable. slowly i start believing that without leyline of sanctity the game might just get a lil more interesting that I actually took them out of my sideboard. it does sound very absurd, but that was what i observed.
You're playing Bogles and you think it's Leyline of Sanctity that is making the game unenjoyable for the people you play?
You play boggles and you think that leyline of sanctity makes it uninteractive? boggles decks are made to be uninteractive, thats why you play only hexproof creatures and enchantments, the problem is not leyline....
This ^^
I've almost commit myself to the idea that I should just immediately scoop every single match I come up against Bogles in. I know the deck is entirely beatable, but I just don't think anyone who plays it should have the satisfaction in actually being allowed to play at all. You're basically a prick for even considering it as an option in my opinion. The entire gameplan is basically to just hope your opponent's deck has them screwed before you even start playing, and swing for the fences giggling like a little girl, lol.
You play boggles and you think that leyline of sanctity makes it uninteractive? boggles decks are made to be uninteractive, thats why you play only hexproof creatures and enchantments, the problem is not leyline....
it's just one of the decks i have, and tbh i put it away since it's deemed "uninteractive" and doesnt make me friends (especially since modern is a dead format where i live, we have problems getting an 8-man modern event going even once a month). but without leyline at least you could run edicts. and besides, it's always easier to single out a card instead of a whole mechanism isnt it? if i were the one in charge i'd never create a mechanism like hexproof.
Being slow is not a problem for control. Currently the problem with control is the lack of good CA sources. While it can gain time, it can't stand long, because can't refill the resources lost to gain that time.
CA only works if you are trying to protect your early drops. Since you can not do that, you are behind by the time something hits your side of the board you can protect. Control is playing the catch up game from the opening draw. As Valanarch has said, there is really nothing on the ban list that can solve that problem.
Quote from LucidCheetah »
I've almost commit myself to the idea that I should just immediately scoop every single match I come up against Bogles in. I know the deck is entirely beatable, but I just don't think anyone who plays it should have the satisfaction in actually being allowed to play at all. You're basically a prick for even considering it as an option in my opinion. The entire gameplan is basically to just hope your opponent's deck has them screwed before you even start playing, and swing for the fences giggling like a little girl, lol.
Depends on what level of competition we are speaking. If we are talking friendly play testing or FNM level play, I agree, leave the Bogle.dek at home. If I am playing a qualifier or for maybe some Modern Masters packs or a box, I am playing Bogle.dek every time. There are very few weaknesses to the deck.
Depends on what level of competition we are speaking. If we are talking friendly play testing or FNM level play, I agree, leave the Bogle.dek at home. If I am playing a qualifier or for maybe some Modern Masters packs or a box, I am playing Bogle.dek every time. There are very few weaknesses to the deck.
That said, I wouldn't scoop a game in a serious competition either. If you're playing in a competitive event you should go in with at least some sort of potential game plan for facing Bogles. It's not unbeatable by any means, or you'd see it taking down way more competitions than it does. There's plenty of sideboard hate that crosses over to work well against both Bogles and more prominent tier decks in the format.
Bogles isn't even that great, honestly. There's a reason it tends not to play highly in competitive events.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad deck, but it's most certainly Tier 2. I certainly wouldn't immediately give up to it, especially because the deck can be so inconsistent and have major issues winning a game for that reason. We're not talking about something like Eggs, where you have to suffer through a lot of them playing just to see if they win or not.
Bogles isn't even that great, honestly. There's a reason it tends not to play highly in competitive events.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad deck, but it's most certainly Tier 2. I certainly wouldn't immediately give up to it, especially because the deck can be so inconsistent and have major issues winning a game for that reason. We're not talking about something like Eggs, where you have to suffer through a lot of them playing just to see if they win or not.
I would call Bogle a meta deck. It can crush in certain metas, and get crushed in other metas. If you know what you are walking into meta wise it can be a really good deck.
I would call Bogle a meta deck. It can crush in certain metas, and get crushed in other metas. If you know what you are walking into meta wise it can be a really good deck.
It's kinda like SI.
If SI was a deck that folded not to FoW but to non-destroy non-targeting effects.
It's kinda like SI.
If SI was a deck that folded not to FoW but to non-destroy non-targeting effects.
The effect of Force of Will on Spanish Inquisition is overrated. Force of Will doesn't stop it from being a Tier 1 deck. It just knocks it from Tier 2 to Tier 3.
Turbofog Maze's End in Standard might be a more apt comparison.
The effect of Force of Will on Spanish Inquisition is overrated. Force of Will doesn't stop it from being a Tier 1 deck. It just knocks it from Tier 2 to Tier 3.
Turbofog Maze's End in Standard might be a more apt comparison.
I feel the comparison to SI is still appropriate.
Bogle with the meta accounting for it is answered by enough decks to peg it down a few tiers, but not completely render it any more unplayable than it innately is.
I mean, there's going to be some matchups where you just weren't going to get interacted with anyway.
I think people are vastly overestimating what SotM can do with the tools available in modern.
Darksteel citadel is the only artifact land you get to play.
You do not get Chrome Mox.
The lack of those two make Thirst for Knowledge a lot worse.
Tron goes over the top of Thopter/Sword very well.
GBx can break your thopter/sword combo very easily.
Affinity and combo decks generally win before you can even get thopter/sword really going.
Many sideboard cards that people are already running are very effective against your combo, like Stony Silence or Rest in Peace.
Everyone seems to only imagine SotM fitting into other formats where they had several other tools that Modern does not have.
SotM could be bad for some other mythical modern format where other aggro decks are actually viable, but there are so many things standing in aggro's way right now, ThopterSword would really just be a drop in the bucket.
That is not to say I think it needs to be unbanned. I lump it in with the likes of Golgari Grave Troll. Its unlikely to have any effect on the format at all, so the only gain is the psychological one of having a smaller banned list.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
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I can see Sword of the Meek (but only because I love Delver decks and that card would kill them) being a problem, but it deserves testing. I still don't understand why you think that Affinity would die if Nacatl was unbanned. All Naya Zoo would get is another 1-drop. Even at Pro Tour Philadelphia, when fast combo decks that Affinity couldn't interact were prevalent and Punishing Fire was both hurting it and helping Zoo, Affinity was still the 4th most played deck. It might get played less, but it wouldn't stop being played.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
i'm still in the camp that DRS was too good to be printed (as an 0/1 and/or a mana filter i think it would have been fine). the meta hasn't changed in almost a year. instead of jund being obviously the best deck, now the 5 decks that have always been "the best" or near "the best" are "the best."
Zoo was played more then Affinity though. There is a bit more forgiveness with the deck. But adding SotM will just nullify them both. So its a no win for aggro all around.
I am that way about all the cant be countered cards.
I dont think the meta should change that fast or that much. I agree control needs a boost but I dont feel anything on the ban list would give it that boost.
I will try to belive this was a joke...
I was backing Preordain unban. While i belive it's impact on twin will not be so great a it would be on other decks that needs it, the simple fact that preordain might help an already successful deck reduces it's change a lot.
Then i hope for AV or BB.
I will concede that Sword of the Meek could be a problem. That is why I think it needs to be tested, as I think it might be fine but might not be. And what you said about Naya Zoo being played more than Affinity is true, but that is very different from Nacatl forcing all other aggro decks out of the format. And you have to remember that Punishing Fire was legal at the time too, which Zoo both used and was able to ignore. Affinity loses horribly to Punishing Fire, as it relies on a bunch of creatures with 2 or less toughness to win. With Punishing Fire gone I believe that we would see at least 2 top tier aggro decks if Nacatl was unbanned.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Oh I didn't realize it was control. Just by the way everyone described it, it sounded like an aggro deck.
I agree with this, but that is even more of a reason to unban it. I am inclined to believe that the reason why control isn't working in Modern isn't because of the banned list but because of the card pool. Fact or Fiction and Counterspell are cards that could make control playable by giving it a strong 2-mana counter and a much more powerful draw spell.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
let me explain my rationale. I play 4 copies of leyline of sanctity on the sideboard my bogle deck, and every time i have them out i would get the exact same reaction. it's not that leyline of sanctity is unbeatable, but it does make the game less enjoyable. slowly i start believing that without leyline of sanctity the game might just get a lil more interesting that I actually took them out of my sideboard. it does sound very absurd, but that was what i observed.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
The problem is that spells that target players directly bypass all the traditional defenses. You either play Leyline, or you out-aggro them. Without Leyline they would be even stronger, and the alternatives are either easily removed or too slow to play. Leyline is a control card, and even better, it's a non-blue control card, something Modern badly needs.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
You play boggles and you think that leyline of sanctity makes it uninteractive? boggles decks are made to be uninteractive, thats why you play only hexproof creatures and enchantments, the problem is not leyline....
Being slow is not a problem for control. Currently the problem with control is the lack of good CA sources. While it can gain time, it can't stand long, because can't refill the resources lost to gain that time.
You're playing Bogles and you think it's Leyline of Sanctity that is making the game unenjoyable for the people you play?
This ^^
I've almost commit myself to the idea that I should just immediately scoop every single match I come up against Bogles in. I know the deck is entirely beatable, but I just don't think anyone who plays it should have the satisfaction in actually being allowed to play at all. You're basically a prick for even considering it as an option in my opinion. The entire gameplan is basically to just hope your opponent's deck has them screwed before you even start playing, and swing for the fences giggling like a little girl, lol.
it's just one of the decks i have, and tbh i put it away since it's deemed "uninteractive" and doesnt make me friends (especially since modern is a dead format where i live, we have problems getting an 8-man modern event going even once a month). but without leyline at least you could run edicts. and besides, it's always easier to single out a card instead of a whole mechanism isnt it? if i were the one in charge i'd never create a mechanism like hexproof.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
CA only works if you are trying to protect your early drops. Since you can not do that, you are behind by the time something hits your side of the board you can protect. Control is playing the catch up game from the opening draw. As Valanarch has said, there is really nothing on the ban list that can solve that problem.
Depends on what level of competition we are speaking. If we are talking friendly play testing or FNM level play, I agree, leave the Bogle.dek at home. If I am playing a qualifier or for maybe some Modern Masters packs or a box, I am playing Bogle.dek every time. There are very few weaknesses to the deck.
That said, I wouldn't scoop a game in a serious competition either. If you're playing in a competitive event you should go in with at least some sort of potential game plan for facing Bogles. It's not unbeatable by any means, or you'd see it taking down way more competitions than it does. There's plenty of sideboard hate that crosses over to work well against both Bogles and more prominent tier decks in the format.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad deck, but it's most certainly Tier 2. I certainly wouldn't immediately give up to it, especially because the deck can be so inconsistent and have major issues winning a game for that reason. We're not talking about something like Eggs, where you have to suffer through a lot of them playing just to see if they win or not.
I would call Bogle a meta deck. It can crush in certain metas, and get crushed in other metas. If you know what you are walking into meta wise it can be a really good deck.
It's kinda like SI.
If SI was a deck that folded not to FoW but to non-destroy non-targeting effects.
The effect of Force of Will on Spanish Inquisition is overrated. Force of Will doesn't stop it from being a Tier 1 deck. It just knocks it from Tier 2 to Tier 3.
Turbofog Maze's End in Standard might be a more apt comparison.
I feel the comparison to SI is still appropriate.
Bogle with the meta accounting for it is answered by enough decks to peg it down a few tiers, but not completely render it any more unplayable than it innately is.
I mean, there's going to be some matchups where you just weren't going to get interacted with anyway.
Darksteel citadel is the only artifact land you get to play.
You do not get Chrome Mox.
The lack of those two make Thirst for Knowledge a lot worse.
Tron goes over the top of Thopter/Sword very well.
GBx can break your thopter/sword combo very easily.
Affinity and combo decks generally win before you can even get thopter/sword really going.
Many sideboard cards that people are already running are very effective against your combo, like Stony Silence or Rest in Peace.
Everyone seems to only imagine SotM fitting into other formats where they had several other tools that Modern does not have.
SotM could be bad for some other mythical modern format where other aggro decks are actually viable, but there are so many things standing in aggro's way right now, ThopterSword would really just be a drop in the bucket.
That is not to say I think it needs to be unbanned. I lump it in with the likes of Golgari Grave Troll. Its unlikely to have any effect on the format at all, so the only gain is the psychological one of having a smaller banned list.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.