Jace isn't popular in legacy at the moment because of the popularity of tempo and mid range decks - decks with stuff thats traditionally good against Jace like Spell Pierces, Dazes, Bolts, unblockable dudes (TNN), lines of play that don't really care about Jace or make him waste his abilities (SFM into batterskull). Then there's the combo decks to worry about, which have never cared about Jace unless it's a topdeck war.
It's a bit asinine to say that Jace is balanced because he can't Fateseal, Brainstorm, and Unsummon in the same turn. He does whatever line is the best line for the turn, advances the board, and passes the turn. You protect him, he digs through your deck for answers to the board and threats to get the attention off him, all while functioning as a backup, "oops I win" card.
JTMS is not to be feared in a control shell. the control shell lost too much of its power,
This is flat out wrong. I'm sick of hearing it. The control shell lost AV, Ponder and Pre-ordain, and, well, that's about it. The removal is still there, the finishers are for the most part still there, and so on. What did control 'lose' that wasn't here to begin with? We never had free counterspells, or Brainstorm, etc.
One of the formats strongest players is a control (ish) deck - the GB rock shell. It's more of a midrange deck, but it plays as the "control deck" in a ton of its matchups. It's got discard, removal, and its win conditions are pretty interchangeable.
When did everyone start pretending that URW wasn't a competitive deck? HOW can people not see how insane that deck would be with Jace in it? It boggles my mind.
I'm really tired of arguing this. Jace and SFM aren't coming back to this format unless something goes horribly wrong. Good riddance.
Has anyone even considered the fact that Jace, Brainstorm, put Bonfire of the Damned on top is game against the G/B shell? Or a fair amount of the format? They kill it, you're up a card, and you get to miracle a Bonfire. Terminus too. We have never had a Miracles enabler in Modern, and believe me, the format is not equipped to handle one. I made a UWr miracles deck with 4 Jaces and tried it out. After 3 matches, I could tell it was crazy broken. You don't want that deck in the format, trust me.
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This wasn't one of the trials I discussed earlier, where we spent a lot of time developing a possible decklist and ran it through a predefined gauntlet. This was more a case of "is it insane?", so I hammered out a quick list without a sideboard and ran a few matches against a representative set of decks (Jund, Scapeshift, Affinity, and Twin, in this case). As such, I don't want to give the impression that this is a list I'd take to a tournament. It's just a placeholder.
Numbers: It crushed Jund and Affinity without any trouble (2-0. Twin was marginally more annoying, but really didn't pose much of a threat) either (2-1). I got stuck on three lands against Scapeshift both games, but it also felt like that was the weakest matchup overall, and probably was where the deck was most lacking. The key thing that I found was that basically every time I resolved a Jace, the game was actually over. I would brainstorm, and next turn I'd either Miracle something or have a hand full of counterspells. This suggests to me that, while the list itself is rough, the core concept is extremely powerful, and with a smoother set of answers around it is probably strong enough to beat just about anything. It also has the mark of having the best record of any first-draft deck like this I've ever played.
EDIT: who's actually mentioned a Clamp unban?
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We need A) A fresh thread, ~400 pages makes it seem cluttered and B) A new rule where we are not permitted to ever talk about removing JTMS, SFM or Skullclamp from the list because it is more likely for every single proton to decay right this instant than it is for them to be unbanned (Check out my physics e-willy ladies!).
LegitKarona, i'd love to see a decklist and numbers.
If we're doing that, we're at least also adding a rule forbidding the discussion of banning fetchlands.
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While I understand the frustration of talking about things that's position should be set in stone, it invalidates the idea of a discussion if you outright ban points of interest.
While I understand the frustration of talking about things that's position should be set in stone, it invalidates the idea of a discussion if you outright ban points of interest.
Agreed, no matter how silly or unreasonable it may be everyone has their right to discuss what they think is good for Modern.
If we're doing that, we're at least also adding a rule forbidding the discussion of banning fetchlands.
Frankly, I thing we need a ban list forum, with a stick thread for each of the cards on the list that gets discussed most. These conversations seem to go in circles. We discuss something, than someone who hasn't read the previous 100 pages of the thread comes in and says something already beaten to death.
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
This wasn't one of the trials I discussed earlier, where we spent a lot of time developing a possible decklist and ran it through a predefined gauntlet. This was more a case of "is it insane?", so I hammered out a quick list without a sideboard and ran a few matches against a representative set of decks (Jund, Scapeshift, Affinity, and Twin, in this case). As such, I don't want to give the impression that this is a list I'd take to a tournament. It's just a placeholder.
Numbers: It crushed Jund and Affinity without any trouble (2-0. Twin was marginally more annoying, but really didn't pose much of a threat) either (2-1). I got stuck on three lands against Scapeshift both games, but it also felt like that was the weakest matchup overall, and probably was where the deck was most lacking. The key thing that I found was that basically every time I resolved a Jace, the game was actually over. I would brainstorm, and next turn I'd either Miracle something or have a hand full of counterspells. This suggests to me that, while the list itself is rough, the core concept is extremely powerful, and with a smoother set of answers around it is probably strong enough to beat just about anything. It also has the mark of having the best record of any first-draft deck like this I've ever played.
Hrm. I tested it out some, and what I discovered is that GR Tron consistently stomps it. I'm sure a more tight list could do better, but I'm not sure that would really make it so Tron would not still have an overwhelming advantage against it; it'd likely have less of an overwhelming advantage, but said overwhelming advantage would likely remain.
Agreed, no matter how silly or unreasonable it may be everyone has their right to discuss what they think is good for Modern.
I agree, but talk of banning the fetchlands should not be allowed in this thread. Talk of increasing the size of the banned list by 2-3 cards is banned, so I don't see why talk of increasing it by 5 isn't.
I hadn't tested it against tron-I'm not surprised it didn't do very well. Ultimately, though, it probably wouldn't change much. The deck already has solid matchups against almost everything else, it would have enough room in the sideboard to level some serious hate against tron. Four Sowing Salts, a blood moon or two, Spreading Seas, the sky's the limit. The key is that the deck is, even as a very rough draft, competitive with and even superior to a large portion of the Modern tier 1. A more tuned list would be even stronger.
This also assumes that Miracles is the best place for Jace available. I defaulted to it because it would be a completely new deck and because it's the most broken, but it could easily be right to play a more consistent deck. Jace is pretty powerful, he could find a dominant home anywhere. BUG, standard UWR, possibly even an esper-blade deck with Lingering Souls and Swords. There could also be a RUG deck playing it alongside Oracle of Mul Daya like in standard. Being able to combine an insane mana/draw engine with the ability to consistently miracle Bonfire would be pretty scary. Or a similar shell in BUG, using Deathrite Shaman and the standard discard/removal suite to protect the mana/draw engine. It almost doesn't matter. The key is that the lower bound for how good Jace could be in Modern is already incredibly high, and the higher bound could be essentially anywhere.
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That also requires for Jace to go unanswered for 6 turns. So assuming he is dropped turn 4(3 with acceleration) you still have a win con on turn 10(9).
You have no clue as to how the card functions, you are stripping potential answers every turn Jace is active, whether its a creature, a potential spell on the top of their library, or in card advantage.
Jace protects himself in every single way possible, based on all the mechanics of Magic.
Modern is slow enough of a format that jace is just insane. The reason it's not broken in legacy is because of the difficulty to even reach 4 mana but here it's no problem at all in a blue deck so you just get to brainstorm over and over in a format that's lacking in card draw.. yeah no thanks.
I don't understand this train of thought... in a slower format, cards like Jace will loose power. You can't drop him and go nuts with his 0 or - ability. This format has so many creatures out by the time Jace hits the field that the only real safe option if you plan to untap with him is to +2. In legacy you can get away with 0 more often because lightning bolt is not splashed into damn near every archetype.
Again I come back to Karn vs Jace on turn 3. Which one of these options has a higher chance to sway the game: unsummon, fate seal, or sorcery speed brainstorm VS exile target permanent or exile a card from hand. The amount of tempo you gain from Karn puts Jace to shame. Hell even a turn 3 wurmcoil outclasses turn 3 Jace in the aggro matchup.
If he is unbanned, he will show up in a lot of decks, but he isn't format warping. Most decks already have answers for him. You don't need to bring anything extra in your SB to combat him.
As for Jace in a miracles deck, he wouldn't be bad, but that archetype really wants divining top and ponder/preordain more then Jace.
You have no clue as to how the card functions, you are stripping potential answers every turn Jace is active, whether its a creature, a potential spell on the top of their library, or in card advantage.
Jace protects himself in every single way possible, based on all the mechanics of Magic.
I understand how Fateseal works. Its not anymore powerful than any turn 3 play that tron, Jund, or affinity can pull.
Honestly the only reason people have a disdain for the card is because a price tag. This is modern. Jace hasn't fought vs the likes of living end or storm or tron or affinity... and no comparing Jace in legacy (a format that favors blue) to Jace in modern (blue based control not-existant) is ludicrous.
He doesn't break the turn 4 rule, he wont push any arc type to the top of the charts.
Like the majority of the preemptive bans, he seems to be guilty until proven innocent. How can we prove his innocence though?
wtf, again for the 1023230th time, you can't compare t3 karn with jtms.
It's very obvious, yet some still don't realize it, maybe if I explain they will stop (joke).
1. Turn3 karn can not be played as often as a t4 jtms.
2. Playing karn means your whole deck is dedicated to playing this card, and similar ones like wurmcoil (if you don't understand that I'll clarify: dedicading your deck to play fast Karns has an obvious tradeoff, the cards you can play are much fewer in the card pool, aka colorless), whereas if you want to play jtms you just have to play blue (duh). To be able to play a fast Karn you had to spend time and resources previously to be able to, but when you play jtms, you just had to play 4 lands.
As for Jace in a miracles deck, he wouldn't be bad, but that archetype really wants divining top and ponder/preordain more then Jace.
Jace's direct synergy with Miracles (referring to the mechanic) is actually quite weak. The reason he's aces in Miracles decks in Legacy is because Miracles has strong synergy with CounterTop, and CounterTop has strong synergy with Jace. This leads to strong indirect synergy between Miracles and Jace. But CounterTop doesn't exist in Modern, so you're left with the rather weak direct synergy between Jace and Miracles.
I am so, so very glad that this thread didn't turn against me and start arguing that JTMS would be fine for the format. I thought I was taking crazy pills for a second there... seems like an almost weekly ritual at this point where someone brings up Jace or SFM as fine for the format.
Some cards really should be banned from discussion at this point. Jace, SFM, Skullclamp, Hypergenesis, etc...
Keep the realm of discussion within realistic unbans, like Sword of the Meek, AV, Bitterblossom, etc.
wtf, again for the 1023230th time, you can't compare t3 karn with jtms.
It's very obvious, yet some still don't realize it, maybe if I explain they will stop (joke).
1. Turn3 karn can not be played as often as a t4 jtms.
2. Playing karn means your whole deck is dedicated to playing this card, and similar ones like wurmcoil (if you don't understand that I'll clarify: dedicading your deck to play fast Karns has an obvious tradeoff, the cards you can play are much fewer in the card pool, aka colorless), whereas if you want to play jtms you just have to play blue (duh). To be able to play a fast Karn you had to spend time and resources previously to be able to, but when you play jtms, you just had to play 4 lands.
I disagree. I can goldfish turn 3/4 karn or wurmcoil 9/10 games. Being able to "Just play blue" to play him isn't that great.Il Not every blue deck will run Jace just because they can. He's no DRS after all.
Also I am realistic, I don't think Jace will be unbanned anytime soon. As the format gets larger and the power level of other strategies increases, I think he would come off in the future.
For now I'd settle for bitter blossom and sword of the meek.
You could prove his innocence via testing heavily, and showing results that suggest he's not overpowered. As for Miracles... Well, I can't say you're wrong, because it would love some Tops and good cantrips, but Jace alone is demonstrably enough to make a Miracles shell absolutely insane.
Also, I think you're missing the point about Karn vs. Jace. Let me try to put it another way:
Karn on turn 3 requires your deck to be built around getting to that end. You're gonna be spending the first few turns of the game getting your tron lands, setting up your position so that you can play a turn 3 Karn. Meanwhile, your opponent is allowed to goldfish you for 2-3 turns, so they can play their Deathrites, Lilianas, Discard, Fulminator Mages post-board, Serum Visions to get counter magic, and so on. Essentially, you're not spending 1 card to play a turn 3 Karn, you're spending several cards and a LOT of tempo to get it down.
Jace, on the other hand, requires none of that. Playing it on turn four requires no more setup than the basic "play 24+ mana sources". As such, all that time in the turns beforehand, and all that mana, and all those cards you used to set up Karn, can instead be used to disrupt your opponent by killing their creatures, attacking their hand, countering their spells, etc. In short, the game state when you cast Karn vs. when you cast Jace is very different: with Karn, it has to not only protect itself, but WIN THE GAME on its own, because you spent a lot of resources getting to the point you could cast it. Jace, on the other hand, can be run out after you've bolted one guy and countered another, maybe taken something out of their hand, so that when it brainstorms it stands a good chance to survive to the next turn. If it doesn't, you got a brainstorm and 3 life out of the deal, while your opponent is probably down a card. If it does, the game is almost certainly over.
You have a decent point about comparing Jace to Legacy, so maybe this will convince you: Jace is not a proactive win con that you rely on to immediately win the game. Instead, he is an engine, one that will generate massive card advantage while simultaneously digging very deep into your deck. As such, if answers exist to the other decks, those answers will be at their best alongside Jace. There are powerful answers to these combos, therefore they will be powerful alongside Jace. It doesn't matter how good the other decks are. If there are effective answers to them, Jace will be powerful (assuming the format is slow enough to play Jace or has the inherent acceleration to make Jace playable sooner). Since these conditions hold true for Jace, Jace WILL be powerful, even dominant.
The last thing is simple: Jace is fundamentally, demonstrably too powerful for the format. My Miracles experiment is hardly concrete proof, but all the margin of error points up, not down, meaning that if my deck is an inaccurate image of Jace's power, then it is inaccurate because it is weaker than it should be, not stronger. As such, we can say with some certainty that Jace is not a safe unban, because I can show you a list with him that is too powerful for the format and you can see so for yourself.
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You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
You could prove his innocence via testing heavily, and showing results that suggest he's not overpowered. As for Miracles... Well, I can't say you're wrong, because it would love some Tops and good cantrips, but Jace alone is demonstrably enough to make a Miracles shell absolutely insane.
Also, I think you're missing the point about Karn vs. Jace. Let me try to put it another way:
Karn on turn 3 requires your deck to be built around getting to that end. You're gonna be spending the first few turns of the game getting your tron lands, setting up your position so that you can play a turn 3 Karn. Meanwhile, your opponent is allowed to goldfish you for 2-3 turns, so they can play their Deathrites, Lilianas, Discard, Fulminator Mages post-board, Serum Visions to get counter magic, and so on. Essentially, you're not spending 1 card to play a turn 3 Karn, you're spending several cards and a LOT of tempo to get it down.
Jace, on the other hand, requires none of that. Playing it on turn four requires no more setup than the basic "play 24+ mana sources". As such, all that time in the turns beforehand, and all that mana, and all those cards you used to set up Karn, can instead be used to disrupt your opponent by killing their creatures, attacking their hand, countering their spells, etc. In short, the game state when you cast Karn vs. when you cast Jace is very different: with Karn, it has to not only protect itself, but WIN THE GAME on its own, because you spent a lot of resources getting to the point you could cast it. Jace, on the other hand, can be run out after you've bolted one guy and countered another, maybe taken something out of their hand, so that when it brainstorms it stands a good chance to survive to the next turn. If it doesn't, you got a brainstorm and 3 life out of the deal, while your opponent is probably down a card. If it does, the game is almost certainly over.
You have a decent point about comparing Jace to Legacy, so maybe this will convince you: Jace is not a proactive win con that you rely on to immediately win the game. Instead, he is an engine, one that will generate massive card advantage while simultaneously digging very deep into your deck. As such, if answers exist to the other decks, those answers will be at their best alongside Jace. There are powerful answers to these combos, therefore they will be powerful alongside Jace. It doesn't matter how good the other decks are. If there are effective answers to them, Jace will be powerful (assuming the format is slow enough to play Jace or has the inherent acceleration to make Jace playable sooner). Since these conditions hold true for Jace, Jace WILL be powerful, even dominant.
The last thing is simple: Jace is fundamentally, demonstrably too powerful for the format. My Miracles experiment is hardly concrete proof, but all the margin of error points up, not down, meaning that if my deck is an inaccurate image of Jace's power, then it is inaccurate because it is weaker than it should be, not stronger. As such, we can say with some certainty that Jace is not a safe unban, because I can show you a list with him that is too powerful for the format and you can see so for yourself.
I understand what your saying. In hindsight comparing a card that just needs to be played out of a deck to a card that requires synergy with numerous others was not the right way to present my argument. Now is probably too soon for a card like Jace to come off, but with the power creep in creatures, soon control is going to need a engine like Jace just to compete.
I understand what your saying. In hindsight comparing a card that just needs to be played out of a deck to a card that requires synergy with numerous others was not the right way to present my argument. Now is probably too soon for a card like Jace to come off, but with the power creep in creatures, soon control is going to need a engine like Jace just to compete.
If Jace, The Mindsculptor is ever needed to compete with the rest of the metagame, Magic has already died a horrible death.
This argument/discussion the past couple pages comes down to personal preference to what people want the power level of Modern to be. Some want it higher, others want it the same, yet others want it lower. Until everyone can agree on the proper power level of the format, this discussion will continue, like a dog chasing its tail, going no where.
I personally have no desire to see JTMS in the format along with any type of miracle deck. Leave those for Legacy. But I am but one person.
It's a bit asinine to say that Jace is balanced because he can't Fateseal, Brainstorm, and Unsummon in the same turn. He does whatever line is the best line for the turn, advances the board, and passes the turn. You protect him, he digs through your deck for answers to the board and threats to get the attention off him, all while functioning as a backup, "oops I win" card.
This is flat out wrong. I'm sick of hearing it. The control shell lost AV, Ponder and Pre-ordain, and, well, that's about it. The removal is still there, the finishers are for the most part still there, and so on. What did control 'lose' that wasn't here to begin with? We never had free counterspells, or Brainstorm, etc.
One of the formats strongest players is a control (ish) deck - the GB rock shell. It's more of a midrange deck, but it plays as the "control deck" in a ton of its matchups. It's got discard, removal, and its win conditions are pretty interchangeable.
When did everyone start pretending that URW wasn't a competitive deck? HOW can people not see how insane that deck would be with Jace in it? It boggles my mind.
I'm really tired of arguing this. Jace and SFM aren't coming back to this format unless something goes horribly wrong. Good riddance.
unban Visions or Sword to see if it helps control don't unban Jace
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
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2 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Gideon Jura
2 Path to Exile
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Lightning Helix
2 Cryptic Command
2 Detention Sphere
1 Desolate Lighthouse
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Island
2 Plains
2 Mountain
2 Remand
2 Everflowing Chalice
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Temporal Mastery
1 Snapcaster Mage
Numbers: It crushed Jund and Affinity without any trouble (2-0. Twin was marginally more annoying, but really didn't pose much of a threat) either (2-1). I got stuck on three lands against Scapeshift both games, but it also felt like that was the weakest matchup overall, and probably was where the deck was most lacking. The key thing that I found was that basically every time I resolved a Jace, the game was actually over. I would brainstorm, and next turn I'd either Miracle something or have a hand full of counterspells. This suggests to me that, while the list itself is rough, the core concept is extremely powerful, and with a smoother set of answers around it is probably strong enough to beat just about anything. It also has the mark of having the best record of any first-draft deck like this I've ever played.
EDIT: who's actually mentioned a Clamp unban?
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
If we're doing that, we're at least also adding a rule forbidding the discussion of banning fetchlands.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Agreed, no matter how silly or unreasonable it may be everyone has their right to discuss what they think is good for Modern.
Frankly, I thing we need a ban list forum, with a stick thread for each of the cards on the list that gets discussed most. These conversations seem to go in circles. We discuss something, than someone who hasn't read the previous 100 pages of the thread comes in and says something already beaten to death.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Hrm. I tested it out some, and what I discovered is that GR Tron consistently stomps it. I'm sure a more tight list could do better, but I'm not sure that would really make it so Tron would not still have an overwhelming advantage against it; it'd likely have less of an overwhelming advantage, but said overwhelming advantage would likely remain.
I agree, but talk of banning the fetchlands should not be allowed in this thread. Talk of increasing the size of the banned list by 2-3 cards is banned, so I don't see why talk of increasing it by 5 isn't.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This also assumes that Miracles is the best place for Jace available. I defaulted to it because it would be a completely new deck and because it's the most broken, but it could easily be right to play a more consistent deck. Jace is pretty powerful, he could find a dominant home anywhere. BUG, standard UWR, possibly even an esper-blade deck with Lingering Souls and Swords. There could also be a RUG deck playing it alongside Oracle of Mul Daya like in standard. Being able to combine an insane mana/draw engine with the ability to consistently miracle Bonfire would be pretty scary. Or a similar shell in BUG, using Deathrite Shaman and the standard discard/removal suite to protect the mana/draw engine. It almost doesn't matter. The key is that the lower bound for how good Jace could be in Modern is already incredibly high, and the higher bound could be essentially anywhere.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
You have no clue as to how the card functions, you are stripping potential answers every turn Jace is active, whether its a creature, a potential spell on the top of their library, or in card advantage.
Jace protects himself in every single way possible, based on all the mechanics of Magic.
I don't understand this train of thought... in a slower format, cards like Jace will loose power. You can't drop him and go nuts with his 0 or - ability. This format has so many creatures out by the time Jace hits the field that the only real safe option if you plan to untap with him is to +2. In legacy you can get away with 0 more often because lightning bolt is not splashed into damn near every archetype.
Again I come back to Karn vs Jace on turn 3. Which one of these options has a higher chance to sway the game: unsummon, fate seal, or sorcery speed brainstorm VS exile target permanent or exile a card from hand. The amount of tempo you gain from Karn puts Jace to shame. Hell even a turn 3 wurmcoil outclasses turn 3 Jace in the aggro matchup.
If he is unbanned, he will show up in a lot of decks, but he isn't format warping. Most decks already have answers for him. You don't need to bring anything extra in your SB to combat him.
As for Jace in a miracles deck, he wouldn't be bad, but that archetype really wants divining top and ponder/preordain more then Jace.
I understand how Fateseal works. Its not anymore powerful than any turn 3 play that tron, Jund, or affinity can pull.
Honestly the only reason people have a disdain for the card is because a price tag. This is modern. Jace hasn't fought vs the likes of living end or storm or tron or affinity... and no comparing Jace in legacy (a format that favors blue) to Jace in modern (blue based control not-existant) is ludicrous.
He doesn't break the turn 4 rule, he wont push any arc type to the top of the charts.
Like the majority of the preemptive bans, he seems to be guilty until proven innocent. How can we prove his innocence though?
It's very obvious, yet some still don't realize it, maybe if I explain they will stop (joke).
1. Turn3 karn can not be played as often as a t4 jtms.
2. Playing karn means your whole deck is dedicated to playing this card, and similar ones like wurmcoil (if you don't understand that I'll clarify: dedicading your deck to play fast Karns has an obvious tradeoff, the cards you can play are much fewer in the card pool, aka colorless), whereas if you want to play jtms you just have to play blue (duh). To be able to play a fast Karn you had to spend time and resources previously to be able to, but when you play jtms, you just had to play 4 lands.
Jace's direct synergy with Miracles (referring to the mechanic) is actually quite weak. The reason he's aces in Miracles decks in Legacy is because Miracles has strong synergy with CounterTop, and CounterTop has strong synergy with Jace. This leads to strong indirect synergy between Miracles and Jace. But CounterTop doesn't exist in Modern, so you're left with the rather weak direct synergy between Jace and Miracles.
Some cards really should be banned from discussion at this point. Jace, SFM, Skullclamp, Hypergenesis, etc...
Keep the realm of discussion within realistic unbans, like Sword of the Meek, AV, Bitterblossom, etc.
I disagree. I can goldfish turn 3/4 karn or wurmcoil 9/10 games. Being able to "Just play blue" to play him isn't that great.Il Not every blue deck will run Jace just because they can. He's no DRS after all.
Also I am realistic, I don't think Jace will be unbanned anytime soon. As the format gets larger and the power level of other strategies increases, I think he would come off in the future.
For now I'd settle for bitter blossom and sword of the meek.
Also, I think you're missing the point about Karn vs. Jace. Let me try to put it another way:
Karn on turn 3 requires your deck to be built around getting to that end. You're gonna be spending the first few turns of the game getting your tron lands, setting up your position so that you can play a turn 3 Karn. Meanwhile, your opponent is allowed to goldfish you for 2-3 turns, so they can play their Deathrites, Lilianas, Discard, Fulminator Mages post-board, Serum Visions to get counter magic, and so on. Essentially, you're not spending 1 card to play a turn 3 Karn, you're spending several cards and a LOT of tempo to get it down.
Jace, on the other hand, requires none of that. Playing it on turn four requires no more setup than the basic "play 24+ mana sources". As such, all that time in the turns beforehand, and all that mana, and all those cards you used to set up Karn, can instead be used to disrupt your opponent by killing their creatures, attacking their hand, countering their spells, etc. In short, the game state when you cast Karn vs. when you cast Jace is very different: with Karn, it has to not only protect itself, but WIN THE GAME on its own, because you spent a lot of resources getting to the point you could cast it. Jace, on the other hand, can be run out after you've bolted one guy and countered another, maybe taken something out of their hand, so that when it brainstorms it stands a good chance to survive to the next turn. If it doesn't, you got a brainstorm and 3 life out of the deal, while your opponent is probably down a card. If it does, the game is almost certainly over.
You have a decent point about comparing Jace to Legacy, so maybe this will convince you: Jace is not a proactive win con that you rely on to immediately win the game. Instead, he is an engine, one that will generate massive card advantage while simultaneously digging very deep into your deck. As such, if answers exist to the other decks, those answers will be at their best alongside Jace. There are powerful answers to these combos, therefore they will be powerful alongside Jace. It doesn't matter how good the other decks are. If there are effective answers to them, Jace will be powerful (assuming the format is slow enough to play Jace or has the inherent acceleration to make Jace playable sooner). Since these conditions hold true for Jace, Jace WILL be powerful, even dominant.
The last thing is simple: Jace is fundamentally, demonstrably too powerful for the format. My Miracles experiment is hardly concrete proof, but all the margin of error points up, not down, meaning that if my deck is an inaccurate image of Jace's power, then it is inaccurate because it is weaker than it should be, not stronger. As such, we can say with some certainty that Jace is not a safe unban, because I can show you a list with him that is too powerful for the format and you can see so for yourself.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
I understand what your saying. In hindsight comparing a card that just needs to be played out of a deck to a card that requires synergy with numerous others was not the right way to present my argument. Now is probably too soon for a card like Jace to come off, but with the power creep in creatures, soon control is going to need a engine like Jace just to compete.
If Jace, The Mindsculptor is ever needed to compete with the rest of the metagame, Magic has already died a horrible death.
I personally have no desire to see JTMS in the format along with any type of miracle deck. Leave those for Legacy. But I am but one person.
thank God.