Pod doesn't need anymore help from GSZ. Rock will probably end up adapting and find a way to break it.
How would BG Rock/Jund/Junk/Ajundi/BG Souls break it? What would they cut for it? And Chord of Calling can fetch all of the combo pieces in Pod, but it isn't a 4 of. I doubt that they could break GSZ.
They wouldn't break it, they would jsut use it heavily to the point of reducing format diversity. What we saw previously is every green deck running 4 of it, because it was simultaneously a 1 mana ramp spell and 5-8 of the best of every card you might want. So Jund WOULD run it, taking out a goyf, ooze and somethign else, just because it adds that consistency.
Similarly, pod would absolutely LOVE GSZ. Melira, Finks, Valroz (or any better green sac outlet) are all tutorable. It would replace Chord of Calling and provide a lot more consistency.
The problem isn't that it is too strong, it is that once you are green, you might as well run 4 of them. And then a lot of decks really start to look the same.
It is a really fun card though. I'm not actually convinced it should remain banned, just explaining the logic, as I see it.
Wow, so 5 specific cards across 4 turns drop a 5/5, a 1/1 and 2 2/2s? Thats so broken (big irony intended).
So much has been said about Bitterblossom being around the top 3 cards which make the least sense on the banned list.
As per not all colors being represented in legacy, lets check:
W - D&T, Stax
U - MUC / High Tide, S&T, Merfolk
B - MB Discard
R - Burn (+ splash to W), Painter
G - Elves (+ splashes to B and/or W)
WU - Miracles (+ splash to R)
WB - Some sort of WB blade existed once
WR - Variation of burn maybe?
WG - Zenith
UB - Reanimator, ANT
UR - Delver, Painter, Sneak&Show
UG - Second breakfast? Not sure on this one
BR - /
BG - Midrange
RG - /
Esper - Blade
Grixis - Variantions of delver, TES
Jund - Jund
Naya - Naya
Bant - Countertop / NO Bant, lost flavor a while ago
WBR - Midrange, seen some time ago though lost flavor
RUG - Delver
GWB (Junk) - Variation of GW
UWR - Miracles, Delver
BUG - BUG control
Seems pretty balanced to me. Nowadays its not that hard to find color combinations since there's so much color bleed. It's harder NOT to include colors because mana bases are dumb easy right now (yes, I'm on the ABRduals-are-bad boat). Why play WR aggro when you can use green's better critters, why play UB control when you can use White's great utilities, etc.
The list was off the top of my head so feel free to correct / add if anything. I don't see modern having this great diversity, am I wrong? And it's not that much because the cards aren't there (some aren't and thats just that), sometimes its the fact one or two cards invalidate too many or there's simply no will to go the brewing route by fear of the banhammer.
The main reason I agree on a nacatl unban comes from me seeing what happened in standard: naya kept jund in check. Right now midrange has nothing to fear because they just can't compete with DRS, goyfs, lilis, and the fact these decks survive to combo anyway. No predator, no danger. A fast and semi resilient big naya deck could help get jund back down to a balanced position and allow other decks which can prey on fast aggro to exist. Also, DRS still a bigger mistake than SFM to my eyes. I didn't see jund running mana elves before and they should kind of comit if they want to play explore or whatever, not have it so easy with a mana elf + lategame utility + gy hate at 1cmc.
To be honest, when i spoke about bitterblossom i was just writing a good starting, and of you consider not powerful in modern bitterblossom first turn, followed by a counter, followed by hexroof on your bitterblossom, followed by a time walk fairy, and the opponent Beated down by flyers -so no block-, i dunno if We have the same concept of power level. After that, if that combination of cards is hard to get online on your first hand is another question and about the legacy list you posted, i know legacy gas divercity, it's why i play it but i was speaking about aggro, and if you could find aggro decks wih all colors combination, not all the legacy metà
Again, srry for my bad english
Ps: i wrote i wouldnt unban bitterblossom, but i never played modern or estended when it was legal, nor i dont know what would happen it it gets unbanned, but i'd like too see it unbanned so We could see fairy become a thing
They wouldn't break it, they would jsut use it heavily to the point of reducing format diversity. What we saw previously is every green deck running 4 of it, because it was simultaneously a 1 mana ramp spell and 5-8 of the best of every card you might want. So Jund WOULD run it, taking out a goyf, ooze and somethign else, just because it adds that consistency.
So your argument is Jund would take out Tarmogoyf/Ooze in order to run a card... that gets them Tarmogoyf/Ooze but costs 1 extra mana to do so. I'm not seeing the logic.
Not to mention, if I recall correctly, Jund didn't run Green Sun's Zenith when it was legal.
There is no logic. Why should Jund pay one mana more for cards they only pack because they are so cheap? And why should Jund open itself up for another kind of hate (search hate)?
I have a scenario, where I win with Infect T1 in Modern. So what? It is extremly unreliable and it makes the deck overall weaker, because you have to include cards that only serve the purpose of making the deck faster.
As i said, i was just writing an example, you just focus on that and not on the other things i wrote, so i'll give up, but lastly, lightning bolt > all infect decks
So really to build the best aggro deck in a format like Modern you really need all three colors unless you have blistering speed like Brozek Boros in extended or RDW/Burn. Plus Naya actually has better mana than RG or GW so you are actually hindering yourself by playing RG or GW.
That is the point, the mana for Naya is better than RG, RW and GW because there is no punishment.
Straight RG could go on the route of speed if we had a better creature curve, but as it is now, we don't, as the drop 1 get outclassed quite fast as the game goes on, some REALLY strong drop 2 and 3 is what is needed for beatdown aggro to succed.
And the punishment on greedy mana makes sure that going 3 colors is not automatically a better choice due to the risks involved.
That is the point, the mana for Naya is better than RG, RW and GW because there is no punishment.
...
And the punishment on greedy mana makes sure that going 3 colors is not automatically a better choice due to the risks involved.
We -are- talking about one specific format here, right?
Because right here, you lost me.
Besides, the mana for Naya is as stable as Boros's mana considering the two operate under Arid Mesa's range. Gruul and Selesnya are mildly boned thanks to no allied fetches in the format.
I have a scenario, where I win with Infect T1 in Modern. So what? It is extremly unreliable and it makes the deck overall weaker, because you have to include cards that only serve the purpose of making the deck faster.
Its comments like this about Fae that makes me wonder how many have actually played against the deck posting about it. The example the other poster brought up is exactly why Fae was powerful and hated, and it happened quite often.
I have changed my stance on BB, unban it. As long as there is Abrupt Decay is in the format, they can unban quite a few cards. The problem is, they will unban those cards, realize decay is a format warping card, ban it, and then have to ban the cards they unbanned while decay was in the format. Should be great for player moral!
Nope, I don't find that any powerful at all when we're getting karns t3 anyway, won t4 with splinter twin with your scenario, infect, etc. Simian spirit guide + blossom existed before and was never used because its a bad move. Sure, that exact combination does something, but it certainly doesn't win you the game as DRS into t2 liliana on the play does sometimes, and thats 2 cards.
As per aggro being on all colors, well thats just how the color pie works. Same way control isn't in all colors either. I'm happy with colors having an identity by themselves and certain archetypes leaning towards certain colors. From my point of view, aggro is G. Control is U (the hardest of controls). All other mishmashes of colors are depending on metas, preferences, and cards printed, e.g. sphinx's revelation leaning to UW and hence making UB almost unplayable in standard if its not esper.
I did play a lot with blossom. In standard (all its eras), extended, and legacy. I can assure you that combination of cards is just a "meh" sequence of plays. Scion of oona mainly is always something I hated to play if it wasn't in response to a removal, because it's too expensive. Mistbind + blossom sure, can almost time walk you but it's still just a 4/4 which, without blossom, can be a pain to play vs open mana. Also, you're gonna need to mana leak something early, spellstutter doesn't catch everything.
So yeah, free bitterblossom!
Yea, your last post summarize what i was trying to say
If GSZ was unbanned decks would run a 3-1 split of Goyf-Ooze similar to what has been run in Legacy. Jund did not run GSZ when it was legal because it was horrible cascade target. They also did not have DRS in the deck to tutor up. Green decks would tend to start with 4. That's the way it was before they banned it.
But i reall doubt it that AV will ever see the light of day in Modern. This card is just too strong.
Ancestral Vision is arguably the safest card on the list after GGT.
It baffles me that in a format where you can win on turn 4, drawing a few cards a turn later is considered overpowered. And that's if you cast it on turn 1.
Point is, the decks that run it have other stuff to trade 1 for 1 against anything (namely bolts, snappies, mana leak, etc). Refilling so freely, as much as I hate to admit since I was the first to want it unbanned, is dangerous. It could be fine, or it could not. I feel there's plenty of other safer stuff to bring before (sword, blossom, nacatl, jace).
How in the world do you consider Jace safer than Ancestral Vision?
If GSZ was unbanned decks would run a 3-1 split of Goyf-Ooze similar to what has been run in Legacy. Jund did not run GSZ when it was legal because it was horrible cascade target. They also did not have DRS in the deck to tutor up. Green decks would tend to start with 4. That's the way it was before they banned it.
Except that's very rarely done in Legacy. Green Sun's Zenith mostly sees play in "toolbox" decks like Maverick or creature-based combo decks like Elves. Jund is neither.
All Green Sun's Zenith really offers Jund is the ability to pay an extra mana to get a card that's useful rather than simply being a card that's useful.
Except decay is ALREADY format warping and it wouldn't be in any more way with bb in the format, because hate towards it exists in many other ways. Fearing a counterspell is a bad argument imo.
Yes, it's a strong card vs empty boards, especially vs control. Oh wait, isn't that the point of cards? Being strong against something? How did GB elves, a deck so much less powerful than jund and GW these days in modern, beat it? Since modern faeries would have to be so much similar to the standard versions because of the minimum synergy needed whereas the decks predating (if that's even a word) on it have access to more tools and can adapt. The biggest improvement to faeries I can see is snapcaster, which is itself antisynergistic.
I'm glad you change your stance bocephus, one of us will end up wrong after it is unbanned and thats a good thing, we will find the right answer. Right now, we don't have it because there hasn't been a chance for WoTC to be proven wrong by us the players and customers.
Also, I don't really get what you didn't like of Ignithas's post. He's right in every sense. Including cards like simian spirit guide on faeries just to make a t1 blossom is SO a bad idea I can't start to explain why, comes from a guy who's even tested chrome mox for the same scenarios.
I do change my stance on AV though, even as much as I'd love the card to come out, for what I'm seeing of the meta it may be too much. Easy reload for decks who already have tools to slow you down to misery and just crush you in CA. It's a less compromising Sphinx's revelation to my eyes.
The problem with unbanning other cards with decay warping the format, later on if and when they get around to banning decay because its warping the format, all those cards they unbanned, will no be too powerful for the format and need to be banned again. Instead, Wotc should just ban decay now and then move on from there.
I cashed out of Modern because i like playing Control and yeah u know Control is kind of dead (PTQ Level, not FNM).
But playable Faeries (playable=Tier 1) with AV and BB will make me come back.
But i reall doubt it that AV will ever see the light of day in Modern. This card is just too strong.
How is it too strong? It is 3 cards on turn 5, if you suspend it on turn 1. It is a horrible topdeck, unlike Sphinx's Revelation. In a format where you can consistently get turn 3 Karn Liberated, I think that are many more powerful things than an extremely delayed Ancestral Recall.
If GSZ was unbanned decks would run a 3-1 split of Goyf-Ooze similar to what has been run in Legacy. Jund did not run GSZ when it was legal because it was horrible cascade target. They also did not have DRS in the deck to tutor up. Green decks would tend to start with 4. That's the way it was before they banned it.
If that was the case, Jund would be a slower deck. And if your creature was destroyed, you couldn't get another one because you would have GSZ instead of it. If you got a GSZ and needed a Scavenging Ooze to stop Griselbrand Reanimator, it might be too late to stop them if you needed 4 mana (3 to search, 1 to activate). Same goes for Living End. And if you needed a blocker against a Geist of Saint Traft, you would definitely be wishing that the GSZ in your hand was a Goyf. It just isn't worth it for them.
I think we can all agree that bitterblossom wouldn't at least break anything, and I don't think you even need to test it to realise it.
What we can argue about is wether its unban would make some sort of difference in the format or not, LOL.
Well, many players would play UB faeries at first, and even later on too just because it's FAERIES, but would a tier1.5 deck change the format in a significant way?
Except that's very rarely done in Legacy. Green Sun's Zenith mostly sees play in "toolbox" decks like Maverick or creature-based combo decks like Elves. Jund is neither.
All Green Sun's Zenith really offers Jund is the ability to pay an extra mana to get a card that's useful rather than simply being a card that's useful.
Yes but Legacy Jund can run BBE and you run into the same issue as old Modern Jund, GSZ is a terrible cascade target and running BBE is just more powerful. I highly doubt that Jund in Modern, sans a powerful cascade card, wouldn't play some amount GSZ. Being able to run a couple less Goyfs and Scooze to add in some utility seems exactly like what Jund would want. GSZ wouldn't even have to be a four of, even just running one seems really powerful for Jund to help make sure it has what it needs. It even plays nicely with Modern Jund's "card draw" of Bob and Chandra.
I don't know about vision, I only know it would boost UWR draw-go, which is a strategy I don't like at all (meaning I don't like draw-go strategies to see play in Modern).
The strat of just playing instants during your opponent's turn while gaining card advantage little by little is very dull, boring, grindy and lame for most people me thinks. If they tapped out at least once in a while during their turn it'd be bearable.
Of course, it's very hard to do that when your opponent is trying to EOT hierarch into twin, but oh well. Some other sort of proactive control should exist better than draw-go, although I'm ok with no control decks in the format, just tempo and aggro-control.
devotion won't see mass play in this format. it works for merfolk, because its a highly permanent based deck, and master of waves just happens to be a merfolk as well. the other deck i can see it working in is some sort of ww or death and taxes type deck, but white doesn't have a good top end devotion card to play into.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
I think black got the better end of the bargain for Devotion... except for the part where it's all high curve nigh-unplayable stuff that tempts you with promise of excellent value in magical christmas land.
And for the cost of casting some of those guys you could've launched one of many critters with reasonably good if not astounding ETB effects, from Tiago up to the still criminally underplayed Grave Tits.
Well, many players would play UB faeries at first, and even later on too just because it's FAERIES, but would a tier1.5 deck change the format in a significant way?
You are correct, U/B would be T1.5, but the 3 color Fae decks would be very good, much better then the U/B versions. I am talking U/B/g, U/B/r, and U/B/w. Adding that splash of the 3rd color makes Fae so much better. And its easy to do in Modern.
Devotion may be here to stay since its a fixed version of chroma so we already have older cards that work well with the mechanic. I would say give it time.
You are correct, U/B would be T1.5, but the 3 color Fae decks would be very good, much better then the U/B versions. I am talking U/B/g, U/B/r, and U/B/w. Adding that splash of the 3rd color makes Fae so much better. And its easy to do in Modern.
The problem I have with this logic is that if a splash makes Faeries so much better, why didn't the deck play 3 colors in the old extended format? The mana fixing was the same back then.
How would BG Rock/Jund/Junk/Ajundi/BG Souls break it? What would they cut for it? And Chord of Calling can fetch all of the combo pieces in Pod, but it isn't a 4 of. I doubt that they could break GSZ.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Similarly, pod would absolutely LOVE GSZ. Melira, Finks, Valroz (or any better green sac outlet) are all tutorable. It would replace Chord of Calling and provide a lot more consistency.
The problem isn't that it is too strong, it is that once you are green, you might as well run 4 of them. And then a lot of decks really start to look the same.
It is a really fun card though. I'm not actually convinced it should remain banned, just explaining the logic, as I see it.
To be honest, when i spoke about bitterblossom i was just writing a good starting, and of you consider not powerful in modern bitterblossom first turn, followed by a counter, followed by hexroof on your bitterblossom, followed by a time walk fairy, and the opponent Beated down by flyers -so no block-, i dunno if We have the same concept of power level. After that, if that combination of cards is hard to get online on your first hand is another question
Again, srry for my bad english
Ps: i wrote i wouldnt unban bitterblossom, but i never played modern or estended when it was legal, nor i dont know what would happen it it gets unbanned, but i'd like too see it unbanned so We could see fairy become a thing
Huh, and UG Madness was in the Top 4. And the Sneak and Show deck ran Woodfall Primus. My, the format was quite different back then.
So your argument is Jund would take out Tarmogoyf/Ooze in order to run a card... that gets them Tarmogoyf/Ooze but costs 1 extra mana to do so. I'm not seeing the logic.
Not to mention, if I recall correctly, Jund didn't run Green Sun's Zenith when it was legal.
As i said, i was just writing an example, you just focus on that and not on the other things i wrote, so i'll give up, but lastly, lightning bolt > all infect decks
Straight RG could go on the route of speed if we had a better creature curve, but as it is now, we don't, as the drop 1 get outclassed quite fast as the game goes on, some REALLY strong drop 2 and 3 is what is needed for beatdown aggro to succed.
And the punishment on greedy mana makes sure that going 3 colors is not automatically a better choice due to the risks involved.
We -are- talking about one specific format here, right?
Because right here, you lost me.
Besides, the mana for Naya is as stable as Boros's mana considering the two operate under Arid Mesa's range. Gruul and Selesnya are mildly boned thanks to no allied fetches in the format.
Its comments like this about Fae that makes me wonder how many have actually played against the deck posting about it. The example the other poster brought up is exactly why Fae was powerful and hated, and it happened quite often.
I have changed my stance on BB, unban it. As long as there is Abrupt Decay is in the format, they can unban quite a few cards. The problem is, they will unban those cards, realize decay is a format warping card, ban it, and then have to ban the cards they unbanned while decay was in the format. Should be great for player moral!
Yea, your last post summarize what i was trying to say
Only it's not. No one cares about it's Llanowar Elf impersonation.
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WUBRG
Ancestral Vision is arguably the safest card on the list after GGT.
It baffles me that in a format where you can win on turn 4, drawing a few cards a turn later is considered overpowered. And that's if you cast it on turn 1.
How in the world do you consider Jace safer than Ancestral Vision?
Except that's very rarely done in Legacy. Green Sun's Zenith mostly sees play in "toolbox" decks like Maverick or creature-based combo decks like Elves. Jund is neither.
All Green Sun's Zenith really offers Jund is the ability to pay an extra mana to get a card that's useful rather than simply being a card that's useful.
The problem with unbanning other cards with decay warping the format, later on if and when they get around to banning decay because its warping the format, all those cards they unbanned, will no be too powerful for the format and need to be banned again. Instead, Wotc should just ban decay now and then move on from there.
How is it too strong? It is 3 cards on turn 5, if you suspend it on turn 1. It is a horrible topdeck, unlike Sphinx's Revelation. In a format where you can consistently get turn 3 Karn Liberated, I think that are many more powerful things than an extremely delayed Ancestral Recall.
If that was the case, Jund would be a slower deck. And if your creature was destroyed, you couldn't get another one because you would have GSZ instead of it. If you got a GSZ and needed a Scavenging Ooze to stop Griselbrand Reanimator, it might be too late to stop them if you needed 4 mana (3 to search, 1 to activate). Same goes for Living End. And if you needed a blocker against a Geist of Saint Traft, you would definitely be wishing that the GSZ in your hand was a Goyf. It just isn't worth it for them.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Someone actually played this card?
My response exactly.
Does this card really come up enough in your games that it's a problem?
What we can argue about is wether its unban would make some sort of difference in the format or not, LOL.
Well, many players would play UB faeries at first, and even later on too just because it's FAERIES, but would a tier1.5 deck change the format in a significant way?
Yes but Legacy Jund can run BBE and you run into the same issue as old Modern Jund, GSZ is a terrible cascade target and running BBE is just more powerful. I highly doubt that Jund in Modern, sans a powerful cascade card, wouldn't play some amount GSZ. Being able to run a couple less Goyfs and Scooze to add in some utility seems exactly like what Jund would want. GSZ wouldn't even have to be a four of, even just running one seems really powerful for Jund to help make sure it has what it needs. It even plays nicely with Modern Jund's "card draw" of Bob and Chandra.
The strat of just playing instants during your opponent's turn while gaining card advantage little by little is very dull, boring, grindy and lame for most people me thinks. If they tapped out at least once in a while during their turn it'd be bearable.
Of course, it's very hard to do that when your opponent is trying to EOT hierarch into twin, but oh well. Some other sort of proactive control should exist better than draw-go, although I'm ok with no control decks in the format, just tempo and aggro-control.
And for the cost of casting some of those guys you could've launched one of many critters with reasonably good if not astounding ETB effects, from Tiago up to the still criminally underplayed Grave Tits.
You are correct, U/B would be T1.5, but the 3 color Fae decks would be very good, much better then the U/B versions. I am talking U/B/g, U/B/r, and U/B/w. Adding that splash of the 3rd color makes Fae so much better. And its easy to do in Modern.
Devotion may be here to stay since its a fixed version of chroma so we already have older cards that work well with the mechanic. I would say give it time.
The problem I have with this logic is that if a splash makes Faeries so much better, why didn't the deck play 3 colors in the old extended format? The mana fixing was the same back then.