As a thought experiment, what would a playable yet not overpowered version of that card (without any life gain) look like?
U and index 4? 6, maybe?
I believe the last time this came up the Pro's said something like 12+, but you have to remember Index is a complete non-bo with fetchlands, and it is card disadvantage. Besides, without the lifegain or additional affect multiples are completely dead (or at best very very bad), which makes the card even worse. I don't think any index effect is playable without an additional effect attached to it.
A high enough Index value is essentially a Vampiric Tutor for multiple cards without any lifeloss.
Rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck certainly is busted, especially with the ability to play it in most decks because of the hybrid ccosts and the ability to shuffle away unwanted cards. Most of the time, this is a Vampiric Tutor without lifeloss if you are looking for something that is a 4-of in your deck. That is too powerful for Modern, even without the lifegain. And can you imagine it with Miracle cards? You do that, then Temporal Mastery, and then a Terminus. Then you continue to get amazing draws until you start hitting the bad cards, at which point you just activate a fetchland.
You can't shuffle with an Index effect, and rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck is certainly not even remotely busted. The lifegain may be too much, so you can tinker with the sum minus costs. Maybe 10 is better, but why would Miracles play this when they have Sensei's Divining Top + Brainstorm which are just a million times better? Maybe it would help Countertop in Modern, but remember you don't know when you want to miracle, and you can't play fetchlands with it, and being sorcery means it is awkward with Miracles whereas Top + Bstorm are instant and are what make Countertop in Legacy actually playable. It's also not a Tutor as it doesn't draw you a card, and we have a lot of ways to search for cards in Modern that are much better that aren't banned. Index cards are notoriously horrible in multiples.
What I meant by shuffling was that you could pay 1 mana, get the best card in the top 14 cards of your library, and then draw a fetchland to shuffle the bad ones away as soon as you started getting worse cards.
As a thought experiment, what would a playable yet not overpowered version of that card (without any life gain) look like?
U and index 4? 6, maybe?
I believe the last time this came up the Pro's said something like 12+, but you have to remember Index is a complete non-bo with fetchlands, and it is card disadvantage. Besides, without the lifegain or additional affect multiples are completely dead (or at best very very bad), which makes the card even worse. I don't think any index effect is playable without an additional effect attached to it.
A high enough Index value is essentially a Vampiric Tutor for multiple cards without any lifeloss.
Rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck certainly is busted, especially with the ability to play it in most decks because of the hybrid ccosts and the ability to shuffle away unwanted cards. Most of the time, this is a Vampiric Tutor without lifeloss if you are looking for something that is a 4-of in your deck. That is too powerful for Modern, even without the lifegain. And can you imagine it with Miracle cards? You do that, then Temporal Mastery, and then a Terminus. Then you continue to get amazing draws until you start hitting the bad cards, at which point you just activate a fetchland.
You can't shuffle with an Index effect, and rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck is certainly not even remotely busted. The lifegain may be too much, so you can tinker with the sum minus costs. Maybe 10 is better, but why would Miracles play this when they have Sensei's Divining Top + Brainstorm which are just a million times better? Maybe it would help Countertop in Modern, but remember you don't know when you want to miracle, and you can't play fetchlands with it, and being sorcery means it is awkward with Miracles whereas Top + Bstorm are instant and are what make Countertop in Legacy actually playable. It's also not a Tutor as it doesn't draw you a card, and we have a lot of ways to search for cards in Modern that are much better that aren't banned. Index cards are notoriously horrible in multiples.
What I meant by shuffling was that you could pay 1 mana, get the best card in the top 14 cards of your library, and then draw a fetchland to shuffle the bad ones away as soon as you started getting worse cards.
You don't 'get' the best card in the top 14. You draw one of the top 14 cards on your next draw step (or if you have someway to draw it with another card). Index cards are hideously bad if all it does is rearrange some amount of cards on the top of your library. People way overrate that ability, just like new players do with lifegain. As for the comparison to vampiric tutor...On average this card will look at 1/4th of the cards that vampiric tutor will, it also doesn't shuffle and is a non-bo with fetchlands. I'd like to see Index effects actually playable, so you need to add an additional effect to them and make it at least 10-15 deep. Even then, it probably won't see play if the additional effect isn't compensatory for the deadness of drawing multiples.
As a thought experiment, what would a playable yet not overpowered version of that card (without any life gain) look like?
U and index 4? 6, maybe?
I believe the last time this came up the Pro's said something like 12+, but you have to remember Index is a complete non-bo with fetchlands, and it is card disadvantage. Besides, without the lifegain or additional affect multiples are completely dead (or at best very very bad), which makes the card even worse. I don't think any index effect is playable without an additional effect attached to it.
A high enough Index value is essentially a Vampiric Tutor for multiple cards without any lifeloss.
Rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck certainly is busted, especially with the ability to play it in most decks because of the hybrid ccosts and the ability to shuffle away unwanted cards. Most of the time, this is a Vampiric Tutor without lifeloss if you are looking for something that is a 4-of in your deck. That is too powerful for Modern, even without the lifegain. And can you imagine it with Miracle cards? You do that, then Temporal Mastery, and then a Terminus. Then you continue to get amazing draws until you start hitting the bad cards, at which point you just activate a fetchland.
You can't shuffle with an Index effect, and rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck is certainly not even remotely busted. The lifegain may be too much, so you can tinker with the sum minus costs. Maybe 10 is better, but why would Miracles play this when they have Sensei's Divining Top + Brainstorm which are just a million times better? Maybe it would help Countertop in Modern, but remember you don't know when you want to miracle, and you can't play fetchlands with it, and being sorcery means it is awkward with Miracles whereas Top + Bstorm are instant and are what make Countertop in Legacy actually playable. It's also not a Tutor as it doesn't draw you a card, and we have a lot of ways to search for cards in Modern that are much better that aren't banned. Index cards are notoriously horrible in multiples.
What I meant by shuffling was that you could pay 1 mana, get the best card in the top 14 cards of your library, and then draw a fetchland to shuffle the bad ones away as soon as you started getting worse cards.
You don't 'get' the best card in the top 14. You draw one of the top 14 cards on your next draw step (or if you have someway to draw it with another card). Index cards are hideously bad if all it does is rearrange some amount of cards on the top of your library. People way overrate that ability, just like new players do with lifegain. As for the comparison to vampiric tutor...On average this card will look at 1/4th of the cards that vampiric tutor will, it also doesn't shuffle and is a non-bo with fetchlands. I'd like to see Index effects actually playable, so you need to add an additional effect to them and make it at least 10-15 deep. Even then, it probably won't see play if the additional effect isn't compensatory for the deadness of drawing multiples.
If you are running a card as a 4 of, then you are probably going to get it in your top 14. Which makes this a Vampiric Tutor that gets you the best card in your deck multiple other good cards, the ability to put a fetchland on top of the bad cards so that you can shuffle them away after you have gone through the good ones, and no lifeloss. This would be too good with the lifegain. It would be incredibly strong even without it.
As a thought experiment, what would a playable yet not overpowered version of that card (without any life gain) look like?
U and index 4? 6, maybe?
I believe the last time this came up the Pro's said something like 12+, but you have to remember Index is a complete non-bo with fetchlands, and it is card disadvantage. Besides, without the lifegain or additional affect multiples are completely dead (or at best very very bad), which makes the card even worse. I don't think any index effect is playable without an additional effect attached to it.
A high enough Index value is essentially a Vampiric Tutor for multiple cards without any lifeloss.
Rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck certainly is busted, especially with the ability to play it in most decks because of the hybrid ccosts and the ability to shuffle away unwanted cards. Most of the time, this is a Vampiric Tutor without lifeloss if you are looking for something that is a 4-of in your deck. That is too powerful for Modern, even without the lifegain. And can you imagine it with Miracle cards? You do that, then Temporal Mastery, and then a Terminus. Then you continue to get amazing draws until you start hitting the bad cards, at which point you just activate a fetchland.
You can't shuffle with an Index effect, and rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck is certainly not even remotely busted. The lifegain may be too much, so you can tinker with the sum minus costs. Maybe 10 is better, but why would Miracles play this when they have Sensei's Divining Top + Brainstorm which are just a million times better? Maybe it would help Countertop in Modern, but remember you don't know when you want to miracle, and you can't play fetchlands with it, and being sorcery means it is awkward with Miracles whereas Top + Bstorm are instant and are what make Countertop in Legacy actually playable. It's also not a Tutor as it doesn't draw you a card, and we have a lot of ways to search for cards in Modern that are much better that aren't banned. Index cards are notoriously horrible in multiples.
What I meant by shuffling was that you could pay 1 mana, get the best card in the top 14 cards of your library, and then draw a fetchland to shuffle the bad ones away as soon as you started getting worse cards.
You don't 'get' the best card in the top 14. You draw one of the top 14 cards on your next draw step (or if you have someway to draw it with another card). Index cards are hideously bad if all it does is rearrange some amount of cards on the top of your library. People way overrate that ability, just like new players do with lifegain. As for the comparison to vampiric tutor...On average this card will look at 1/4th of the cards that vampiric tutor will, it also doesn't shuffle and is a non-bo with fetchlands. I'd like to see Index effects actually playable, so you need to add an additional effect to them and make it at least 10-15 deep. Even then, it probably won't see play if the additional effect isn't compensatory for the deadness of drawing multiples.
If you are running a card as a 4 of, then you are probably going to get it in your top 14. Which makes this a Vampiric Tutor that gets you the best card in your deck multiple other good cards, the ability to put a fetchland on top of the bad cards so that you can shuffle them away after you have gone through the good ones, and no lifeloss. This would be too good with the lifegain. It would be incredibly strong even without it.
Again...you don't 'get' anything. Index effects are card disadvantage. I don't know if you know this or not, but most decks need to crack their fetches either that turn or at the end of their opponents turn and not hold onto them for multiple turns in order to reshuffle the deck. You're trying to justify poor use of your most important resource (land base) for a pretty weak effect (Index). If it didn't have the lifegain I doubt it'd see any play. Cards like Mystical Teachings are a million times better for Control decks, and tempo decks would rather have a card that actually does *something*. Cards like Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand actually draw you a card and filter. I do not see any deck that would want to play a straight index effect even if it was 15 or 20 deep. Adding the lifegain means it might actually see some play.
Not to mention there's also the fact the card has a lot of variance. There's a reason you don't see cards like Treasure Hunt see much play even though on average you draw 2 cards from it.
As a thought experiment, what would a playable yet not overpowered version of that card (without any life gain) look like?
U and index 4? 6, maybe?
I believe the last time this came up the Pro's said something like 12+, but you have to remember Index is a complete non-bo with fetchlands, and it is card disadvantage. Besides, without the lifegain or additional affect multiples are completely dead (or at best very very bad), which makes the card even worse. I don't think any index effect is playable without an additional effect attached to it.
A high enough Index value is essentially a Vampiric Tutor for multiple cards without any lifeloss.
Rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck certainly is busted, especially with the ability to play it in most decks because of the hybrid ccosts and the ability to shuffle away unwanted cards. Most of the time, this is a Vampiric Tutor without lifeloss if you are looking for something that is a 4-of in your deck. That is too powerful for Modern, even without the lifegain. And can you imagine it with Miracle cards? You do that, then Temporal Mastery, and then a Terminus. Then you continue to get amazing draws until you start hitting the bad cards, at which point you just activate a fetchland.
You can't shuffle with an Index effect, and rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck is certainly not even remotely busted. The lifegain may be too much, so you can tinker with the sum minus costs. Maybe 10 is better, but why would Miracles play this when they have Sensei's Divining Top + Brainstorm which are just a million times better? Maybe it would help Countertop in Modern, but remember you don't know when you want to miracle, and you can't play fetchlands with it, and being sorcery means it is awkward with Miracles whereas Top + Bstorm are instant and are what make Countertop in Legacy actually playable. It's also not a Tutor as it doesn't draw you a card, and we have a lot of ways to search for cards in Modern that are much better that aren't banned. Index cards are notoriously horrible in multiples.
What I meant by shuffling was that you could pay 1 mana, get the best card in the top 14 cards of your library, and then draw a fetchland to shuffle the bad ones away as soon as you started getting worse cards.
You don't 'get' the best card in the top 14. You draw one of the top 14 cards on your next draw step (or if you have someway to draw it with another card). Index cards are hideously bad if all it does is rearrange some amount of cards on the top of your library. People way overrate that ability, just like new players do with lifegain. As for the comparison to vampiric tutor...On average this card will look at 1/4th of the cards that vampiric tutor will, it also doesn't shuffle and is a non-bo with fetchlands. I'd like to see Index effects actually playable, so you need to add an additional effect to them and make it at least 10-15 deep. Even then, it probably won't see play if the additional effect isn't compensatory for the deadness of drawing multiples.
If you are running a card as a 4 of, then you are probably going to get it in your top 14. Which makes this a Vampiric Tutor that gets you the best card in your deck multiple other good cards, the ability to put a fetchland on top of the bad cards so that you can shuffle them away after you have gone through the good ones, and no lifeloss. This would be too good with the lifegain. It would be incredibly strong even without it.
Again...you don't 'get' anything. Index effects are card disadvantage. I don't know if you know this or not, but most decks need to crack their fetches either that turn or at the end of their opponents turn and not hold onto them for multiple turns in order to reshuffle the deck. You're trying to justify poor use of your most important resource (land base) for a pretty weak effect (Index). If it didn't have the lifegain I doubt it'd see any play. Cards like Mystical Teachings are a million times better for Control decks, and tempo decks would rather have a card that actually does *something*. Cards like Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand actually draw you a card and filter. I do not see any deck that would want to play a straight index effect even if it was 15 or 20 deep. Adding the lifegain means it might actually see some play.
If you make a mostly fetchless manabase, but with enough fetchlands to put one on top of the bad cards and under the good cards to crack when you want to shuffle them away, you can ignore that. And I would happily run this in tempo. Turn 1 this. Turn 2 Delver, hold up counter mana or bolt mana. Turn 3, Remand+Bolt. Turn 4, Snapcaster Mage the Remand. And since Remand cantrips, you can even put the needed lands to advance your mana inbetween them. All that it takes is finding 3 cards that you are running as a 4 of in your opening hand and the top 14 cards of your library. It isn't hard. And that isn't even talking about Combo decks. Ad Nauseum would love that. It is essentially an easy way to tutor for the pieces of its combo. A low-fetch version of All-In Twin would most likely run it over Serum Visions. It is just that good. Scapeshift would run it. Melira Pod and Kiki Pod might even run it. It is Birthing Pods 5-8. And you can just shuffle away the unneeded cards with the Birthing Pod. Even without the lifegain, it is much more powerful than any Modern-legal tutor. I'd say that it is only a little weaker than Enlightened Tutor.
Not to mention there's also the fact the card has a lot of variance. There's a reason you don't see cards like Treasure Hunt see much play even though on average you draw 2 cards from it.
Treasure Hunt always draws you only 1 nonland card. That is not good enough when the nonland cards are usually what you want to draw. And you usually only draw 1 card in a deck with under 30 lands.
Edit: Though I'm sure you'd rather have Rancor most of the time.
Yay! it's in Modern. for some reason I thought it was much older. Rancor is good, but that is crazy, how is it not rare? thanks for pointing this out, must acquire a playset
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As a thought experiment, what would a playable yet not overpowered version of that card (without any life gain) look like?
U and index 4? 6, maybe?
I believe the last time this came up the Pro's said something like 12+, but you have to remember Index is a complete non-bo with fetchlands, and it is card disadvantage. Besides, without the lifegain or additional affect multiples are completely dead (or at best very very bad), which makes the card even worse. I don't think any index effect is playable without an additional effect attached to it.
A high enough Index value is essentially a Vampiric Tutor for multiple cards without any lifeloss.
Rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck certainly is busted, especially with the ability to play it in most decks because of the hybrid ccosts and the ability to shuffle away unwanted cards. Most of the time, this is a Vampiric Tutor without lifeloss if you are looking for something that is a 4-of in your deck. That is too powerful for Modern, even without the lifegain. And can you imagine it with Miracle cards? You do that, then Temporal Mastery, and then a Terminus. Then you continue to get amazing draws until you start hitting the bad cards, at which point you just activate a fetchland.
You can't shuffle with an Index effect, and rearranging the top 14 cards of your deck is certainly not even remotely busted. The lifegain may be too much, so you can tinker with the sum minus costs. Maybe 10 is better, but why would Miracles play this when they have Sensei's Divining Top + Brainstorm which are just a million times better? Maybe it would help Countertop in Modern, but remember you don't know when you want to miracle, and you can't play fetchlands with it, and being sorcery means it is awkward with Miracles whereas Top + Bstorm are instant and are what make Countertop in Legacy actually playable. It's also not a Tutor as it doesn't draw you a card, and we have a lot of ways to search for cards in Modern that are much better that aren't banned. Index cards are notoriously horrible in multiples.
What I meant by shuffling was that you could pay 1 mana, get the best card in the top 14 cards of your library, and then draw a fetchland to shuffle the bad ones away as soon as you started getting worse cards.
You don't 'get' the best card in the top 14. You draw one of the top 14 cards on your next draw step (or if you have someway to draw it with another card). Index cards are hideously bad if all it does is rearrange some amount of cards on the top of your library. People way overrate that ability, just like new players do with lifegain. As for the comparison to vampiric tutor...On average this card will look at 1/4th of the cards that vampiric tutor will, it also doesn't shuffle and is a non-bo with fetchlands. I'd like to see Index effects actually playable, so you need to add an additional effect to them and make it at least 10-15 deep. Even then, it probably won't see play if the additional effect isn't compensatory for the deadness of drawing multiples.
If you are running a card as a 4 of, then you are probably going to get it in your top 14. Which makes this a Vampiric Tutor that gets you the best card in your deck multiple other good cards, the ability to put a fetchland on top of the bad cards so that you can shuffle them away after you have gone through the good ones, and no lifeloss. This would be too good with the lifegain. It would be incredibly strong even without it.
Again...you don't 'get' anything. Index effects are card disadvantage. I don't know if you know this or not, but most decks need to crack their fetches either that turn or at the end of their opponents turn and not hold onto them for multiple turns in order to reshuffle the deck. You're trying to justify poor use of your most important resource (land base) for a pretty weak effect (Index). If it didn't have the lifegain I doubt it'd see any play. Cards like Mystical Teachings are a million times better for Control decks, and tempo decks would rather have a card that actually does *something*. Cards like Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand actually draw you a card and filter. I do not see any deck that would want to play a straight index effect even if it was 15 or 20 deep. Adding the lifegain means it might actually see some play.
If you make a mostly fetchless manabase, but with enough fetchlands to put one on top of the bad cards and under the good cards to crack when you want to shuffle them away, you can ignore that. And I would happily run this in tempo. Turn 1 this. Turn 2 Delver, hold up counter mana or bolt mana. Turn 3, Remand+Bolt. Turn 4, Snapcaster Mage the Remand. And since Remand cantrips, you can even put the needed lands to advance your mana inbetween them. All that it takes is finding 3 cards that you are running as a 4 of in your opening hand and the top 14 cards of your library. It isn't hard. And that isn't even talking about Combo decks. Ad Nauseum would love that. It is essentially an easy way to tutor for the pieces of its combo. A low-fetch version of All-In Twin would most likely run it over Serum Visions. It is just that good. Scapeshift would run it. Melira Pod and Kiki Pod might even run it. It is Birthing Pods 5-8. And you can just shuffle away the unneeded cards with the Birthing Pod. Even without the lifegain, it is much more powerful than any Modern-legal tutor. I'd say that it is only a little weaker than Enlightened Tutor.
Not to mention there's also the fact the card has a lot of variance. There's a reason you don't see cards like Treasure Hunt see much play even though on average you draw 2 cards from it.
Treasure Hunt always draws you only 1 nonland card. That is not good enough when the nonland cards are usually what you want to draw. And you usually only draw 1 card in a deck with under 30 lands.
Nobody was arguing that it wouldn't be good, just not "run around naked and yell "omg ban this now please!"" broken. I have to admit that the Vampiric Tutor comparison is a good call but I'd still argue that the variance pulls it down quite a bit. If Vampiric Tutor read: "flip a coin: if you win the flip search your library for a card and put it on top of your library. If you lose the flip: look at the top 4-6 cards of your library and put them back in any order" then I'm sure it wouldn't be half as broken as it is now.
Also why would Delver run a card like this when they have access to Serum Visions? Visions is enough to secure a flip the majority of the time and in a reactive deck it's impossible to plan more than 1-2 turns ahead anyway
A twist on burn to make it a little more interesting. Both are inferior to many existing burn spells, but have some interesting applications.
Held Breath - B
Instant
Target player loses 5 life. On the next upkeep, that player gains 5 life.
Judgment of Fire - R
Sorcery
Players with 5 life or less lose the game.
I don't think they are inferior. I actually think they both are overpowered. Kinda reminds me of Fireblast which you usually wait to cast to finish the opponent off too. For 1 mana you get 1 more reach and get to run 8 of them. In a world with shocks instead of duals that would be a serious game changer.
I mean if the opponent goes all Conley Woods on you, you can hypothetically kill him T2.
Opponent: Fetch into Shock (17)
You: Goblin Guide - attack (15)
Opponent: Fetch into Shock (12)
You: attack (10) Held Breath (5), Judgment of Fire - GG
I know this is not a realistic scenario but it just illustrates how ridiculous of a potential those cards have.
Oh man if you made Judgement of Fire RW it would be my new favorite card.
The problem with the variance argument is that with four D6 rolls, even a poor outcome is pretty decent. Getting to index six cards for a mana and a card is decent, and that's rolling 1-2-1-2, which is statistically terrible.
I also don't get the fetchland non-bo argument at all. If you play this T1 and get to index your first 14 cards, you'll be able to use any fetchlands to your advantage like this: When (not if) you find a fetchland in the 14 cards, you'll place it below the cards you want, above the cards you'd rather shuffle away. After you shuffle, you'll use your second index spell, which you're pretty certain to find with your first if you're running four, line up the cards you want right above another fetchland, etc etc. And if you're worried about any fetchland in your starting hand, play it first. Second one? Line up one more land of the right colors among your top 14 cards.
Yeah, I'm still convinced that the card would be OP and format warping.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
The problem with the variance argument is that with four D6 rolls, even a poor outcome is pretty decent. Getting to index six cards for a mana and a card is decent, and that's rolling 1-2-1-2, which is statistically terrible.
I also don't get the fetchland non-bo argument at all. If you play this T1 and get to index your first 14 cards, you'll be able to use any fetchlands to your advantage like this: When (not if) you find a fetchland in the 14 cards, you'll place it below the cards you want, above the cards you'd rather shuffle away. After you shuffle, you'll use your second index spell, which you're pretty certain to find with your first if you're running four, line up the cards you want right above another fetchland, etc etc. And if you're worried about any fetchland in your starting hand, play it first. Second one? Line up one more land of the right colors among your top 14 cards.
Yeah, I'm still convinced that the card would be OP and format warping.
I tried out Index in Standard briefly once, I think that's why I have such a low opinion on an effect like that. I know it was a non-combo and non-fetchland format but still I realized that rearranging more than 2-3 cards is impossible (due to the game being unpredictable) unless you treat the card as a straight up tutor and that's where variance kicks in: "How reliable of a tutor is the card really?" I'm no math genius, so I'll leave it as an open question.
As an additional cost to cast Devil's Due, sacrifice a permanent.
Destroy target permanent that shares a type with the sacrificed permanent. If it's destroyed this way, its controller may search his or her library for a permanent with the same name, reveal it, then put it into his or her hand. If he or she does, that player then shuffles his or her library.
This does a few key things for black. For one, it gives it a way to take out any kind of permanent, so long as you do the very in-color thing of sacrificing to get the job done. As an Instant, it can also disrupt certain combo strategies as they go off as well, which can justify the cost of two of your own cards.
"But they get it right back! You two-for-one yourself, and they get to replace it? Worthless junk!"
Potentially, yeah. Black shouldn't get outright destruction of enchantments or artifacts, even at the cost of one of your own. This is really the only "fair" way to do it. However, this allows black's other natural strengths to shine through: discard and extraction.
Basically, it can cost you three cards, but if you're willing to pay it, you can have them chuck the replacement with discard, effectively destroying the original while denying a second copy the ability to take its place. (If they only had one, bonus.) You're also almost guaranteeing that you're forcing a successful discard, which can play into a variety of other effects.
If it's anything but a basic land, your Surgical Extraction or Extirpate just got a lot more potent. No longer would you need to include Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge to strip out Tron pieces or manlands that normally dodge Memoricide, Slaughter Games, or the like. This also almost completely mitigates the drawback of giving them the replacement as well (since you still paid with two of your own cards, you can't really "eliminate" the drawback here).
Because of the synergy with other in-color abilities, the power level of this card is boosted in environments containing good versions of them. Due to this, it would be very low-risk to print in a Standard-legal set, so long as attention is paid to limit availability of good discard and extraction at the same time. And of course you would have to be playing a wide variety of permanents yourself to have the best chance of taking advantage of what this card has to offer.
It gives black something it's been missing since the beginning, but at a reasonable level of cost and risk. It also creates great thought branches for both deck construction and play.
+1 Each player draws a card then discards a card
0 Target player discards a card and lose 1 life
-5 Chose up to 2 cards from target opponents graveyard. You may play those cards without paying their mana cost
+1 Each player draws a card then discards a card
0 Target player discards a card and lose 1 life
-5 Chose up to 2 cards from target opponents graveyard. You may play those cards without paying their mana cost
3
Draw first, discard after is blues color pie pretty sure. Also the fact that you will be using the 0 for massive card advantage does not mean that three starting loyalty is fair. But yes, he would indeed be playable, and yea he doesn't protect himself so that does balance a little, I just don't think enough.
+1 Each player draws a card then discards a card
0 Target player discards a card and lose 1 life
-5 Chose up to 2 cards from target opponents graveyard. You may play those cards without paying their mana cost
3
Draw first, discard after is blues color pie pretty sure. Also the fact that you will be using the 0 for massive card advantage does not mean that three starting loyalty is fair. But yes, he would indeed be playable, and yea he doesn't protect himself so that does balance a little, I just don't think enough.
Faithless Looting?
But you're probably right though. I was switching between 0 and -1 on his second ability. Balancing cards is tough.
+1 Each player draws a card then discards a card
0 Target player discards a card and lose 1 life
-5 Chose up to 2 cards from target opponents graveyard. You may play those cards without paying their mana cost
3
Draw first, discard after is blues color pie pretty sure. Also the fact that you will be using the 0 for massive card advantage does not mean that three starting loyalty is fair. But yes, he would indeed be playable, and yea he doesn't protect himself so that does balance a little, I just don't think enough.
Faithless Looting?
But you're probably right though. I was switching between 0 and -1 on his second ability. Balancing cards is tough.
Touché haha. Yea it is really hard to balance without breaking, but it still needs to be pushed :/ what I'd really like to see is a -1 ability targeted discard. Maybe a -1 targeted discard limited to creatures? I think that would be balanced on this guy instead. Highly relevant but risks being a three mana removal spell and getting bolted. I'd LOVE a +1 all creatures get -1/-1 (also a removal +1 is stupid strong but hey I can dream right?) but I think if you put both it's just not red enough, and being tibalt I'd like the +1 to have some sorta random effect.
As an additional cost to cast Devil's Due, sacrifice a permanent.
Destroy target permanent that shares a type with the sacrificed permanent. If it's destroyed this way, its controller may search his or her library for a permanent with the same name, reveal it, then put it into his or her hand. If he or she does, that player then shuffles his or her library.
This does a few key things for black. For one, it gives it a way to take out any kind of permanent, so long as you do the very in-color thing of sacrificing to get the job done. As an Instant, it can also disrupt certain combo strategies as they go off as well, which can justify the cost of two of your own cards.
"But they get it right back! You two-for-one yourself, and they get to replace it? Worthless junk!"
Potentially, yeah. Black shouldn't get outright destruction of enchantments or artifacts, even at the cost of one of your own. This is really the only "fair" way to do it. However, this allows black's other natural strengths to shine through: discard and extraction.
Basically, it can cost you three cards, but if you're willing to pay it, you can have them chuck the replacement with discard, effectively destroying the original while denying a second copy the ability to take its place. (If they only had one, bonus.) You're also almost guaranteeing that you're forcing a successful discard, which can play into a variety of other effects.
If it's anything but a basic land, your Surgical Extraction or Extirpate just got a lot more potent. No longer would you need to include Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge to strip out Tron pieces or manlands that normally dodge Memoricide, Slaughter Games, or the like. This also almost completely mitigates the drawback of giving them the replacement as well (since you still paid with two of your own cards, you can't really "eliminate" the drawback here).
Because of the synergy with other in-color abilities, the power level of this card is boosted in environments containing good versions of them. Due to this, it would be very low-risk to print in a Standard-legal set, so long as attention is paid to limit availability of good discard and extraction at the same time. And of course you would have to be playing a wide variety of permanents yourself to have the best chance of taking advantage of what this card has to offer.
It gives black something it's been missing since the beginning, but at a reasonable level of cost and risk. It also creates great thought branches for both deck construction and play.
While this is interesting, I can't see how it would be playable. You are giving yourself card disadvantage and black doesn't usually have many artifacts or enchantments that it doesn't need anyways.
Just having the ability would be nice. I'd play this instantly in 8-Rack, for example. WB Death and Taxes would love it as well.
The fact that it can't be shoehorned into just any black deck, I feel, is key; black shouldn't have light restrictions on the ability to destroy basically anything.
In the right setup, though, this could be exactly what a few decks need.
Overheating Matrices2RR Enchantment - Aura Curse
Enchant target player.
During target player's upkeep, they take 1 damage for each enchantment they control. Any enchantment creatures they control take 1 damage. Any enchanted creatures they control take 1 damage for each aura they are enchanted by. Damage to enchanted player, their enchantment creatures, and their enchanted creatures can't be prevented this turn by sources enchanted player controls.
CompostingGGG Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have any cards in your graveyard, you may put a 1/1 green sapproling creature token onto the battlefield.
Just having the ability would be nice. I'd play this instantly in 8-Rack, for example. WB Death and Taxes would love it as well.
The fact that it can't be shoehorned into just any black deck, I feel, is key; black shouldn't have light restrictions on the ability to destroy basically anything.
In the right setup, though, this could be exactly what a few decks need.
There's only two flex spell slots in WB death and taxes, and it'd rather run dismember than this due to the more flexible cost. Also there's the issue that the one thing you'd really wanna hit is Batterskull and sacing your vial to kill it is counter productive.
Battlefield Lookout - W
Creature - Human Scout W,T: Return target creature you control to its owner's hand.
1/1
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
A high enough Index value is essentially a Vampiric Tutor for multiple cards without any lifeloss.
What I meant by shuffling was that you could pay 1 mana, get the best card in the top 14 cards of your library, and then draw a fetchland to shuffle the bad ones away as soon as you started getting worse cards.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You don't 'get' the best card in the top 14. You draw one of the top 14 cards on your next draw step (or if you have someway to draw it with another card). Index cards are hideously bad if all it does is rearrange some amount of cards on the top of your library. People way overrate that ability, just like new players do with lifegain. As for the comparison to vampiric tutor...On average this card will look at 1/4th of the cards that vampiric tutor will, it also doesn't shuffle and is a non-bo with fetchlands. I'd like to see Index effects actually playable, so you need to add an additional effect to them and make it at least 10-15 deep. Even then, it probably won't see play if the additional effect isn't compensatory for the deadness of drawing multiples.
If you are running a card as a 4 of, then you are probably going to get it in your top 14. Which makes this a Vampiric Tutor that gets you the best card in your deck multiple other good cards, the ability to put a fetchland on top of the bad cards so that you can shuffle them away after you have gone through the good ones, and no lifeloss. This would be too good with the lifegain. It would be incredibly strong even without it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Again...you don't 'get' anything. Index effects are card disadvantage. I don't know if you know this or not, but most decks need to crack their fetches either that turn or at the end of their opponents turn and not hold onto them for multiple turns in order to reshuffle the deck. You're trying to justify poor use of your most important resource (land base) for a pretty weak effect (Index). If it didn't have the lifegain I doubt it'd see any play. Cards like Mystical Teachings are a million times better for Control decks, and tempo decks would rather have a card that actually does *something*. Cards like Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand actually draw you a card and filter. I do not see any deck that would want to play a straight index effect even if it was 15 or 20 deep. Adding the lifegain means it might actually see some play.
Not to mention there's also the fact the card has a lot of variance. There's a reason you don't see cards like Treasure Hunt see much play even though on average you draw 2 cards from it.
If you make a mostly fetchless manabase, but with enough fetchlands to put one on top of the bad cards and under the good cards to crack when you want to shuffle them away, you can ignore that. And I would happily run this in tempo. Turn 1 this. Turn 2 Delver, hold up counter mana or bolt mana. Turn 3, Remand+Bolt. Turn 4, Snapcaster Mage the Remand. And since Remand cantrips, you can even put the needed lands to advance your mana inbetween them. All that it takes is finding 3 cards that you are running as a 4 of in your opening hand and the top 14 cards of your library. It isn't hard. And that isn't even talking about Combo decks. Ad Nauseum would love that. It is essentially an easy way to tutor for the pieces of its combo. A low-fetch version of All-In Twin would most likely run it over Serum Visions. It is just that good. Scapeshift would run it. Melira Pod and Kiki Pod might even run it. It is Birthing Pods 5-8. And you can just shuffle away the unneeded cards with the Birthing Pod. Even without the lifegain, it is much more powerful than any Modern-legal tutor. I'd say that it is only a little weaker than Enlightened Tutor.
Treasure Hunt always draws you only 1 nonland card. That is not good enough when the nonland cards are usually what you want to draw. And you usually only draw 1 card in a deck with under 30 lands.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The mob has spoken. Wizards, we demand you make this happen.
GG creatures you control gain trample until end of turn
it just seems wasteful to have the new hydras be so awesome and then get chumped by Humans
Edit: Though I'm sure you'd rather have Rancor most of the time.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Yay! it's in Modern. for some reason I thought it was much older. Rancor is good, but that is crazy, how is it not rare? thanks for pointing this out, must acquire a playset
Nobody was arguing that it wouldn't be good, just not "run around naked and yell "omg ban this now please!"" broken. I have to admit that the Vampiric Tutor comparison is a good call but I'd still argue that the variance pulls it down quite a bit. If Vampiric Tutor read: "flip a coin: if you win the flip search your library for a card and put it on top of your library. If you lose the flip: look at the top 4-6 cards of your library and put them back in any order" then I'm sure it wouldn't be half as broken as it is now.
Also why would Delver run a card like this when they have access to Serum Visions? Visions is enough to secure a flip the majority of the time and in a reactive deck it's impossible to plan more than 1-2 turns ahead anyway
Oh man if you made Judgement of Fire RW it would be my new favorite card.
The problem with the variance argument is that with four D6 rolls, even a poor outcome is pretty decent. Getting to index six cards for a mana and a card is decent, and that's rolling 1-2-1-2, which is statistically terrible.
I also don't get the fetchland non-bo argument at all. If you play this T1 and get to index your first 14 cards, you'll be able to use any fetchlands to your advantage like this: When (not if) you find a fetchland in the 14 cards, you'll place it below the cards you want, above the cards you'd rather shuffle away. After you shuffle, you'll use your second index spell, which you're pretty certain to find with your first if you're running four, line up the cards you want right above another fetchland, etc etc. And if you're worried about any fetchland in your starting hand, play it first. Second one? Line up one more land of the right colors among your top 14 cards.
Yeah, I'm still convinced that the card would be OP and format warping.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I tried out Index in Standard briefly once, I think that's why I have such a low opinion on an effect like that. I know it was a non-combo and non-fetchland format but still I realized that rearranging more than 2-3 cards is impossible (due to the game being unpredictable) unless you treat the card as a straight up tutor and that's where variance kicks in: "How reliable of a tutor is the card really?" I'm no math genius, so I'll leave it as an open question.
Instant
As an additional cost to cast Devil's Due, sacrifice a permanent.
Destroy target permanent that shares a type with the sacrificed permanent. If it's destroyed this way, its controller may search his or her library for a permanent with the same name, reveal it, then put it into his or her hand. If he or she does, that player then shuffles his or her library.
This does a few key things for black. For one, it gives it a way to take out any kind of permanent, so long as you do the very in-color thing of sacrificing to get the job done. As an Instant, it can also disrupt certain combo strategies as they go off as well, which can justify the cost of two of your own cards.
"But they get it right back! You two-for-one yourself, and they get to replace it? Worthless junk!"
Potentially, yeah. Black shouldn't get outright destruction of enchantments or artifacts, even at the cost of one of your own. This is really the only "fair" way to do it. However, this allows black's other natural strengths to shine through: discard and extraction.
Basically, it can cost you three cards, but if you're willing to pay it, you can have them chuck the replacement with discard, effectively destroying the original while denying a second copy the ability to take its place. (If they only had one, bonus.) You're also almost guaranteeing that you're forcing a successful discard, which can play into a variety of other effects.
If it's anything but a basic land, your Surgical Extraction or Extirpate just got a lot more potent. No longer would you need to include Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge to strip out Tron pieces or manlands that normally dodge Memoricide, Slaughter Games, or the like. This also almost completely mitigates the drawback of giving them the replacement as well (since you still paid with two of your own cards, you can't really "eliminate" the drawback here).
Because of the synergy with other in-color abilities, the power level of this card is boosted in environments containing good versions of them. Due to this, it would be very low-risk to print in a Standard-legal set, so long as attention is paid to limit availability of good discard and extraction at the same time. And of course you would have to be playing a wide variety of permanents yourself to have the best chance of taking advantage of what this card has to offer.
It gives black something it's been missing since the beginning, but at a reasonable level of cost and risk. It also creates great thought branches for both deck construction and play.
Planeswalker - Tibalt
+1 Each player draws a card then discards a card
0 Target player discards a card and lose 1 life
-5 Chose up to 2 cards from target opponents graveyard. You may play those cards without paying their mana cost
3
Draw first, discard after is blues color pie pretty sure. Also the fact that you will be using the 0 for massive card advantage does not mean that three starting loyalty is fair. But yes, he would indeed be playable, and yea he doesn't protect himself so that does balance a little, I just don't think enough.
Faithless Looting?
But you're probably right though. I was switching between 0 and -1 on his second ability. Balancing cards is tough.
Touché haha. Yea it is really hard to balance without breaking, but it still needs to be pushed :/ what I'd really like to see is a -1 ability targeted discard. Maybe a -1 targeted discard limited to creatures? I think that would be balanced on this guy instead. Highly relevant but risks being a three mana removal spell and getting bolted. I'd LOVE a +1 all creatures get -1/-1 (also a removal +1 is stupid strong but hey I can dream right?) but I think if you put both it's just not red enough, and being tibalt I'd like the +1 to have some sorta random effect.
While this is interesting, I can't see how it would be playable. You are giving yourself card disadvantage and black doesn't usually have many artifacts or enchantments that it doesn't need anyways.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The fact that it can't be shoehorned into just any black deck, I feel, is key; black shouldn't have light restrictions on the ability to destroy basically anything.
In the right setup, though, this could be exactly what a few decks need.
Enchantment - Aura Curse
Enchant target player.
During target player's upkeep, they take 1 damage for each enchantment they control. Any enchantment creatures they control take 1 damage. Any enchanted creatures they control take 1 damage for each aura they are enchanted by. Damage to enchanted player, their enchantment creatures, and their enchanted creatures can't be prevented this turn by sources enchanted player controls.
Composting GGG
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have any cards in your graveyard, you may put a 1/1 green sapproling creature token onto the battlefield.
There's only two flex spell slots in WB death and taxes, and it'd rather run dismember than this due to the more flexible cost. Also there's the issue that the one thing you'd really wanna hit is Batterskull and sacing your vial to kill it is counter productive.
Creature - Human Scout
W,T: Return target creature you control to its owner's hand.
1/1
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Feels more blue but I LOVE it. Now THAT is something I would play in death and taxes all day any day haha.