I agree that there is combos in modern. But wizards has been cutting them down slowly and steadily. Is Pod next on the chopping block? Wizards might be loathe to ban it since it enables cool creature decks and the combos it uses are generally a turn slower than Eggs and Storm were. Maybe we'll see a ban on Melira.
If anything, they'll ban the engine. Which is more dangerous, Grizzly Bears or Survival of the Fittest?
If anything, they'll ban the engine. Which is more dangerous, Grizzly Bears or Survival of the Fittest?
Melira Pod is currently significantly more popular than Twin Pod right now. I think Wizards would ban with enough precision to not hit Twin Pod (although accidentally hitting Hive Mind with the Seething Song ban is not a good track record, banning Bloodbraid Elf hit Jund more precisely than banning Deathrite Shaman would have).
Wizards probably won't ban Birthing Pod because it kills Twin Pod (which breaks Pod wide open even more than Melira Pod). Wizards actually probably won't ban Melira because Twin Pod uses her as an anti-Infect bullet. Wizards probably won't ban Voice of Resurgence (even though Melira Pod breaks it significantly more than Twin Pod) because GW Hatebears uses it. Wizards probably can't even ban Murderous Redcap because Twin Pod uses it.
Nay, I actually believe that Wizards is the most likely to ban Viscera Seer. I made a post in the Melira Pod thread covering its possible Turn 4 non-combo kills; I actually doubt that Melira Pod has any Turn 4 non-combo kills that do not involve Viscera Seer (though if it does have any, please let me know!). The main key to Turn 4 kills is that Seer turns Voice into a monstrously large token ASAP; Cartel Aristocrat cannot pull off similar stuff fast enough. With a Seer ban, no other decks would be directly harmed (as no other decks play Seer), and Melira Pod's combo match-up would worsen enough that Twin Pod would get some more real estate.
...Actually, I don't think Wizards will ban anything from Melira Pod this round; the deck hasn't smothered MTGO as hard as Jund had in its heyday, and the upcoming Scavenging Ooze does a number on the deck. I've lost most of the times that I've gone against this card pre-board--I only won if I went hard on the Gavony Township plan or if Linvala shut it up long enough (and Linvala kept eating removal in testing). (Then again, I maindeck targeted discard instead of Abrupt Decay, and Decay LOLs on Ooze.)
It also costs 1, which is not all that common for sacrifice outlets.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
If anything, they'll ban the engine. Which is more dangerous, Grizzly Bears or Survival of the Fittest?
Ain't that a loaded question. They dont want to ban Pod because its a cool card that operates with CREATURES. It sees play in different decks and does cool interactive things. Melira is being used in a way they never foresaw, instead of some kind of counter against the enemy she is used in a strictly degenerate way with persist. Nobody who wasn't abusing Persist would miss her, and it would slow the deck down.
I read Lectys blurb as well, and I could see Seer, but would prefer Melira. Some of your reasons for "they won't ban this because this" were weird. Does everyone at Wizards love Twin Pod? They haven't cared that much in the past for collateral damage, really.
I feel like most of the combo decks in this format are just too slow and aggro-ish to really even be considered a real combo. And yes, I'm afraid wizards wants it that way. They could just make control decks a bit stronger by allowing some decent control magic in the format, but instead they really want the ban list to be at least a mile long.
So, the fact that a format has LESS diversity is an ADVANTAGE?
I'd like to see you explain how
By having weaker control than Legacy (though it is still very powerful), and having the most powerful combos banned, Modern allows for more rogue decks. In Legacy, the combos are too powerful and the control is too powerful to allow any of this. I have played about 10 games of Modern. In addition to Merfolk tribal, Jund, Affinity, Scapeshift, and WUR, I have played against Borborygmos Enraged/Life from the Loam reanimator, WG Exalted, an equipment deck, and all of this was while playing mill. There is still room for diversity in Modern, you just don't have to worry about you deck being crushed by a free Force of Will or a turn 2 or 3 combo win.
Ain't that a loaded question. They dont want to ban Pod because its a cool card that operates with CREATURES. It sees play in different decks and does cool interactive things. Melira is being used in a way they never foresaw, instead of some kind of counter against the enemy she is used in a strictly degenerate way with persist. Nobody who wasn't abusing Persist would miss her, and it would slow the deck down.
I read Lectys blurb as well, and I could see Seer, but would prefer Melira. Some of your reasons for "they won't ban this because this" were weird. Does everyone at Wizards love Twin Pod? They haven't cared that much in the past for collateral damage, really.
I seriously doubt that nobody at Wizards noticed the interaction of Melira and persist. They may not have looked into the extent of it, but I'm sure they realized the possibility was there from the beginning. I realize that most of their testing is done with the current standard, but I like to think that they put a little more thought into the impact things have on the game than that.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see a viscera seer ban. A 1cmc sac outlet that also lets you control your draws is a bit much here. Loss of chance in drawing cards is something they seem to actively fight against (sensei's divining top). It also wouldn't shut the deck down completely, meaning it will piss off less people.
I seriously doubt that nobody at Wizards noticed the interaction of Melira and persist. They may not have looked into the extent of it, but I'm sure they realized the possibility was there from the beginning. I realize that most of their testing is done with the current standard, but I like to think that they put a little more thought into the impact things have on the game than that.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see a viscera seer ban. A 1cmc sac outlet that also lets you control your draws is a bit much here. Loss of chance in drawing cards is something they seem to actively fight against (sensei's divining top). It also wouldn't shut the deck down completely, meaning it will piss off less people.
I would like to think this as well, but after "Voltaic Key, oops, sorry Time Vault's a card" and "Vampire Hexmage, oops, sorry, Dark Depths exists" and even an article detailing Dragonstorm taking over Extended because they didn't playtest certain new Standard cards in an Extended environment, I have little faith left.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Ok, you make some good points, but those examples seem to be primarily of specific card interactions, which I would assume are a little less obvious than a card's interaction with an entire mechanic, right? ...right?
Moved several comparison posts to the comparison thread.
Please stay on topic.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I agree, modern has more potential for rogue decks. Soooo... Where are they?
People are lazy? Or maybe most players have full time jobs and can't spend 20 hours a week testing new decks for every tournament they want to play in. Or maybe they ARE bringing Rogue decks that simply aren't at the point where they would reach the top tables...
There are also a lot more potential options for a Modern brew than a Legacy one, considering that the power level of cards in the Modern card pool are closer together. I would argue that for many color combinations there are more "auto includes" in Legacy that makes it easier to just work on the slots that are open.
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
Sure, I guess that a lot of tribal decks are not viable unless decks with Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix lose some power in the metagame. Maybe those decks just need to protect their creatures better? For example, mono Green Elves might not make it, but UG Elves with Mutagenic Growth and Spell Pierce to protect those key Elf lords might do the trick?
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I feel like most of the combo decks in this format are just too slow and aggro-ish to really even be considered a real combo. And yes, I'm afraid wizards wants it that way. They could just make control decks a bit stronger by allowing some decent control magic in the format, but instead they really want the ban list to be at least a mile long.
They seem to be wanting to shift control towards more permanents, especially with the ETB effects lately. Which has actually allowed for fewer reactive and more proactive games than in the past. But I think they haven't perfected certain aspects for pricing and ect.
For example, there was a time whenever Counterspell was the "be all end all" and at common. Was cheap to buy and could stop any spell. Equally Swords to Ploweshares was cheap to get as well being printed several times at uncommon and can be still had at cheaper than Path to Exile.
It just seems the game does need some new spells that are stronger, but can be printed in multiple sets that are competitive worthy without breaking draft.
People are lazy? Or maybe most players have full time jobs and can't spend 20 hours a week testing new decks for every tournament they want to play in. Or maybe they ARE bringing Rogue decks that simply aren't at the point where they would reach the top tables...
There are also a lot more potential options for a Modern brew than a Legacy one, considering that the power level of cards in the Modern card pool are closer together. I would argue that for many color combinations there are more "auto includes" in Legacy that makes it easier to just work on the slots that are open.
I think we also just have to come down to the point that; people just like to win. Which is in part lazy, but also being the most efficient. This also explains sharp rises in prices for certain cards when they top 8. Which takes specifics and narrows the definition for what cards are "goods." The good thing about combo and modern is that there are many "sleeper hits" that may yet be awakened with each new set release. It seems that the developers want to take the game into a different direction focused around permanents rather than spell interactions. I agree with you in essence about the card pool, there's many things left to discover and exploit.
However, acting as a deck builder, a player, and a maven for the deck are different ways. I'm certain there are probably some deck variants out there that are very good, but simply aren't publicized and are just played at some backwater LGS. There are also times when emergent decks come together at similar times. I remember one deck at my local LGS that was very similar to a top 8 deck prior to that top 8 deck variant being popularized, and his construct was being built months in advanced when trying to hunt down cards. So the spread of information may make for some homogenization, but with the internet innovation can also become more narrowed as the quick access to information makes certain "rogues" become mainstream very quickly.
They only fought against SDT because it ate up time in rounds, not because they hate manipulation. A better example would be banning almost all the good blue cantrips because they enable combo to work very well.
Combo is far from dead - there are 3 "Tier 1" (whatever that means in this format) combo decks. I mean, check out the Daily Event results and weekly Premier Events on MTGO. Pod, Scapeshift, Storm, Twin, and Griselcannon all put up decent results.
Actually, in a lot of ways Modern is the most combo-riffic format that ever existed, in the sense that there are more varied and viable established combo decks around.
There are also lots of combos that haven't really been explored yet, more than anything because there are so many established archetypes to choose from in the format. Cards like Necrotic Ooze (here's my take on that) and the myriad 2-card infinite mana combos (Grand Architect + Pili-Pala, Composite Golem+Nim Deathmantle, etc.) haven't really been explored by the "pro" players, because they had plenty of "established" combos to work with.
This is the advantage to the way Wizards is treating modern - there are a LOT of potential combo decks, and though some obvious ones (Twin, Scapeshift, both of which were standard/extended decks) are around, there is plenty of room for others to pop up. There is virtually no TRADITIONAL control in the format, meaning that it is dominated by midrange, hyper-aggro, and combo strategies.
I think some new combo deck is going to come out of nowhere pretty soon and pull another "Eggs". It will be crazy powerful, if you are willing to put the time into it, and it will win a major tournament, and then it will be the new "big bad" for a while. Then it will get either neutered or people will get used to playing against it, until the next one comes along.
I haven't posted on Salvation in a long time, but I just wanted to say I recently built a Duskmantle Guildmage + Mindcrank combo deck on MTGO, since it's super cheap to build(Most expensive cards being Lotus Bloom, Watery Grave, and Serum Visions).
I feel like this deck has really flown under the radar. This combo is incredibly consistent. I have gotten multiple turn 4 kills with it, and even more turn 5-6. It backs things up by playing Duress and Mana Leak and the funny thing about the combo is that you can trigger it yourself(with Piranha Marsh or Thought Scour) or you can just wait for them to do something to kill themselves(like trying to kill the Guildmage, in response you activate and they trigger the combo with their own card), etc.
Now, I've seen the argument before that this deck isn't good because 'the individual pieces suck'. I dunno. I think the strength of this deck is the fact that it can go get its pieces pretty quickly with the 8x Transmute cards I play(Muddle the Mixture and Dimir Infiltrator).
I don't think combo is dead in Modern, people just don't bother trying anything new for the most part. Hell, I can remember infinite mana/damage combos from Kamigawa/Ravnica Standard that still exist in modern that I've never seen anyone try in Modern(Izzet Guildmage/Splicing Mechanic with Desperate Ritual and Glacial Ray)
The FinkelStorm list isn't bad because it relies on the yard or an Electromancer, it's bad because it needs multiple blue mana in order to do most things and if you don't hit (enough) manamorphose(s), the deck has serious issues. It's a decent Pyromancer deck and a decent generic PIF Storm deck, but it's not a great version of either. A Pyromancer list should always play a full set of Remands because of how ridiculously useful that card is in that kind of shell. The PiF side of it would be better if it had more ways to filter into blue mana, since it's really hard to do that enough to flashback enough cantrips for PiF to be a strong dig spell off just ~3 lands and 1 Manamorphose.
I went with Channel the Suns myself. With fetches/shocks it isn't exactly hard to support green mana, and it provides another 4 rituals that can make blue mana. Although using it in place of seething song makes it much more difficult to ritual chain->past in flames->ritual chain->grapeshot for the win, it does actually make it easier to do chains that draw and play the whole library off ascension, because they produce the blue mana needed to play all the cantrips.
Also, as a bonus, it is immune to Inquisition of Kozilek. I won a match because of that, it was fun.
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If anything, they'll ban the engine. Which is more dangerous, Grizzly Bears or Survival of the Fittest?
Melira Pod is currently significantly more popular than Twin Pod right now. I think Wizards would ban with enough precision to not hit Twin Pod (although accidentally hitting Hive Mind with the Seething Song ban is not a good track record, banning Bloodbraid Elf hit Jund more precisely than banning Deathrite Shaman would have).
Wizards probably won't ban Birthing Pod because it kills Twin Pod (which breaks Pod wide open even more than Melira Pod). Wizards actually probably won't ban Melira because Twin Pod uses her as an anti-Infect bullet. Wizards probably won't ban Voice of Resurgence (even though Melira Pod breaks it significantly more than Twin Pod) because GW Hatebears uses it. Wizards probably can't even ban Murderous Redcap because Twin Pod uses it.
Nay, I actually believe that Wizards is the most likely to ban Viscera Seer. I made a post in the Melira Pod thread covering its possible Turn 4 non-combo kills; I actually doubt that Melira Pod has any Turn 4 non-combo kills that do not involve Viscera Seer (though if it does have any, please let me know!). The main key to Turn 4 kills is that Seer turns Voice into a monstrously large token ASAP; Cartel Aristocrat cannot pull off similar stuff fast enough. With a Seer ban, no other decks would be directly harmed (as no other decks play Seer), and Melira Pod's combo match-up would worsen enough that Twin Pod would get some more real estate.
...Actually, I don't think Wizards will ban anything from Melira Pod this round; the deck hasn't smothered MTGO as hard as Jund had in its heyday, and the upcoming Scavenging Ooze does a number on the deck. I've lost most of the times that I've gone against this card pre-board--I only won if I went hard on the Gavony Township plan or if Linvala shut it up long enough (and Linvala kept eating removal in testing). (Then again, I maindeck targeted discard instead of Abrupt Decay, and Decay LOLs on Ooze.)
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
That's an Invitational Qualifier tournament. SCG has not had a modern portion to any of its tournaments.
Ain't that a loaded question. They dont want to ban Pod because its a cool card that operates with CREATURES. It sees play in different decks and does cool interactive things. Melira is being used in a way they never foresaw, instead of some kind of counter against the enemy she is used in a strictly degenerate way with persist. Nobody who wasn't abusing Persist would miss her, and it would slow the deck down.
I read Lectys blurb as well, and I could see Seer, but would prefer Melira. Some of your reasons for "they won't ban this because this" were weird. Does everyone at Wizards love Twin Pod? They haven't cared that much in the past for collateral damage, really.
How would you define decent control magic? There is Mana Leak, Remand, Cryptic Command, Counterbalance, Spell Snare, Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, and powerful removal spells in every color but blue. Do you expect there to be cards on the level of Force of Will, Hymn to Tourach, and Mental Misstep legal in Modern? This is what I hate about Legacy and Vintage, that unfair control cards are needed to keep overpowered combos in check. Modern's focus on midrange and aggro is better than that.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
My LGS has a player that strictly plays this combo and has been top 3 for the past month.
Its a little more resilient to disruption then grisselcannon and it can win at instant speed.
By having weaker control than Legacy (though it is still very powerful), and having the most powerful combos banned, Modern allows for more rogue decks. In Legacy, the combos are too powerful and the control is too powerful to allow any of this. I have played about 10 games of Modern. In addition to Merfolk tribal, Jund, Affinity, Scapeshift, and WUR, I have played against Borborygmos Enraged/Life from the Loam reanimator, WG Exalted, an equipment deck, and all of this was while playing mill. There is still room for diversity in Modern, you just don't have to worry about you deck being crushed by a free Force of Will or a turn 2 or 3 combo win.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I seriously doubt that nobody at Wizards noticed the interaction of Melira and persist. They may not have looked into the extent of it, but I'm sure they realized the possibility was there from the beginning. I realize that most of their testing is done with the current standard, but I like to think that they put a little more thought into the impact things have on the game than that.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see a viscera seer ban. A 1cmc sac outlet that also lets you control your draws is a bit much here. Loss of chance in drawing cards is something they seem to actively fight against (sensei's divining top). It also wouldn't shut the deck down completely, meaning it will piss off less people.
I would like to think this as well, but after "Voltaic Key, oops, sorry Time Vault's a card" and "Vampire Hexmage, oops, sorry, Dark Depths exists" and even an article detailing Dragonstorm taking over Extended because they didn't playtest certain new Standard cards in an Extended environment, I have little faith left.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Storage lands + Explore + Proliferate
You can even try Reap and Sow
Please stay on topic.
People are lazy? Or maybe most players have full time jobs and can't spend 20 hours a week testing new decks for every tournament they want to play in. Or maybe they ARE bringing Rogue decks that simply aren't at the point where they would reach the top tables...
There are also a lot more potential options for a Modern brew than a Legacy one, considering that the power level of cards in the Modern card pool are closer together. I would argue that for many color combinations there are more "auto includes" in Legacy that makes it easier to just work on the slots that are open.
~ Brian DeMars
~ Brian DeMars
They seem to be wanting to shift control towards more permanents, especially with the ETB effects lately. Which has actually allowed for fewer reactive and more proactive games than in the past. But I think they haven't perfected certain aspects for pricing and ect.
For example, there was a time whenever Counterspell was the "be all end all" and at common. Was cheap to buy and could stop any spell. Equally Swords to Ploweshares was cheap to get as well being printed several times at uncommon and can be still had at cheaper than Path to Exile.
It just seems the game does need some new spells that are stronger, but can be printed in multiple sets that are competitive worthy without breaking draft.
I think we also just have to come down to the point that; people just like to win. Which is in part lazy, but also being the most efficient. This also explains sharp rises in prices for certain cards when they top 8. Which takes specifics and narrows the definition for what cards are "goods." The good thing about combo and modern is that there are many "sleeper hits" that may yet be awakened with each new set release. It seems that the developers want to take the game into a different direction focused around permanents rather than spell interactions. I agree with you in essence about the card pool, there's many things left to discover and exploit.
However, acting as a deck builder, a player, and a maven for the deck are different ways. I'm certain there are probably some deck variants out there that are very good, but simply aren't publicized and are just played at some backwater LGS. There are also times when emergent decks come together at similar times. I remember one deck at my local LGS that was very similar to a top 8 deck prior to that top 8 deck variant being popularized, and his construct was being built months in advanced when trying to hunt down cards. So the spread of information may make for some homogenization, but with the internet innovation can also become more narrowed as the quick access to information makes certain "rogues" become mainstream very quickly.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Actually, in a lot of ways Modern is the most combo-riffic format that ever existed, in the sense that there are more varied and viable established combo decks around.
There are also lots of combos that haven't really been explored yet, more than anything because there are so many established archetypes to choose from in the format. Cards like Necrotic Ooze (here's my take on that) and the myriad 2-card infinite mana combos (Grand Architect + Pili-Pala, Composite Golem+Nim Deathmantle, etc.) haven't really been explored by the "pro" players, because they had plenty of "established" combos to work with.
This is the advantage to the way Wizards is treating modern - there are a LOT of potential combo decks, and though some obvious ones (Twin, Scapeshift, both of which were standard/extended decks) are around, there is plenty of room for others to pop up. There is virtually no TRADITIONAL control in the format, meaning that it is dominated by midrange, hyper-aggro, and combo strategies.
I think some new combo deck is going to come out of nowhere pretty soon and pull another "Eggs". It will be crazy powerful, if you are willing to put the time into it, and it will win a major tournament, and then it will be the new "big bad" for a while. Then it will get either neutered or people will get used to playing against it, until the next one comes along.
I feel like this deck has really flown under the radar. This combo is incredibly consistent. I have gotten multiple turn 4 kills with it, and even more turn 5-6. It backs things up by playing Duress and Mana Leak and the funny thing about the combo is that you can trigger it yourself(with Piranha Marsh or Thought Scour) or you can just wait for them to do something to kill themselves(like trying to kill the Guildmage, in response you activate and they trigger the combo with their own card), etc.
Now, I've seen the argument before that this deck isn't good because 'the individual pieces suck'. I dunno. I think the strength of this deck is the fact that it can go get its pieces pretty quickly with the 8x Transmute cards I play(Muddle the Mixture and Dimir Infiltrator).
I don't think combo is dead in Modern, people just don't bother trying anything new for the most part. Hell, I can remember infinite mana/damage combos from Kamigawa/Ravnica Standard that still exist in modern that I've never seen anyone try in Modern(Izzet Guildmage/Splicing Mechanic with Desperate Ritual and Glacial Ray)
Anyways, just my 2 cents on combo in Modern.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I went with Channel the Suns myself. With fetches/shocks it isn't exactly hard to support green mana, and it provides another 4 rituals that can make blue mana. Although using it in place of seething song makes it much more difficult to ritual chain->past in flames->ritual chain->grapeshot for the win, it does actually make it easier to do chains that draw and play the whole library off ascension, because they produce the blue mana needed to play all the cantrips.
Also, as a bonus, it is immune to Inquisition of Kozilek. I won a match because of that, it was fun.