I dont have the experience some of you guys in Modern but I saw a deck, I think it was called Valakut, run out a 6 drop green Titan on turn 3 and then the 6 drop red Titan on turn 4. I understand Kitchen Finks can be dropped turn 2 and is a really good card but couldnt Thragtusk run out as quick as those Titans, although then I would wonder what the kill condition(s) of the deck would be as the Titans had a 3 damage thing plus 6/6 and the other 6/6 trample plus all the mountains that come into play hitting off that 3 damage land. Maybe in certain situations or decks Thragtusk can be useful?
While it's true that you see Tusk in some RG Tron lists, I'm pretty sure it's wrong. Batterskull is about as good (better in my opinion) and you can find it with ancient stirrings. Wurmcoil is much better IMO, the one extra cost isn't that relevant in tron, and you can dig it up with both stirrings and eye of ugin.
I won't speak to the entirety of modern, but I'm pretty confident you shouldn't play tusk in Tron.
I agree with what you say. I actually don't like the idea of using Tusk in Modern. I only said that because there are stubborn players that will insist in playing that card even if there are better options. And Tron is one of the decks that could easily cast it.
I liked tusk vs delver a ton back then, and rarely lost to delver players. pod into tusk = huge tempo win and likely win inc and cavern naming beast was a backbreaker.
In a hvy creature game like standard was back then, tusk was awesome. Modern seems to have enough alternate gamestyles tho that tusk isn't as great.
Ok fine, I can't think of something within Valakut's realm... well unless you use mana dorks.
I think the guy had his turn count off or something, or I might be missing a specific arrangement of dorks that could make it work, I'm drawing blanks right now on non-Tron approaches.
You just need to ramp 3 times in the first two turns, triple dork does that as does turn 1 search for tomorrow, turn two double dork, or turn 1 dork, turn two sakura tribe elder + dork. Also utopia sprawl can help with this line.
There are other methods as well, none are massively reliable but
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I don't know what the deal is with Thragtusk in Modern, to be honest. This question comes up a lot, and every time we just agree that it's an awesome card that doesn't have a home in any Modern deck. I don't even think he's particularly weaker than other 5-drops in the format. Seems to have more value than any of them.
I just don't think aggro is rampant enough for it to be 'good', and if it were you have an arguably more resilient 5 drop in Batterskull, and also for one more Mana Wurmcoil has the potential to gain you more life; it's worth noting, too, that each of these is a cheaper alternative to thragtusk ($-wise).
A regular "Valakut" deck do not play mana dorks. That's just wrong, and I will not consider that for obvious motives.
Of course it is possible to get 6 mana on turn 3. Just not in a good "Valakut" deck.
Strange, I thought it did...
I mean, we're talking Valakut, the Titan-dropping hardcore ramp deck rooted in ye olde late Zendikar Standard, not Scapeshift, the control deck with a noncreature finisher... right?
GRP17 was pretty clear that he is new to modern. He probably didn't see a "Valakut" deck and merely saw a deck that contained Valakut.
I did mention Im still new to Modern like less then a month into it and less then 2 months into Standard after over a decade long layoff from MTG. If I remember correctly, Player 2 won game 1 and I walked by and watched game 2, it went something like this, again I may not remember this perfectly step by step and did not know what was in their hands
Player 1
turn 1 Plain + 1/1 white flying creature
turn 2 Plain + 2/2 white flying creature, attack for 1 (16 w/Stomping Ground damage)
turn 3 Plain + Spectral Procession, attack for 3 (14)
turn 4 drops 2 Serra Avenger, attack with 1/1 and 3 flying tokens for 4 damage (10)
Player 2
turn 1 Stomping Ground + Birds of Paradise
turn 2 Valakut + sorcery that gave him 2 lands and one on the battlefield Mountain tapped
turn 3 Mountain + a red 2 mana version of dark ritual + Green Titan + 1 Mountain + 1 Valakut
turn 4 Stomping Ground +
one drop enchantment giving all creatures haste then a Red Titan, do 3 damage Serra Avenger #1, Red Titan attack do 3 damage Serra Avenger #2, Green Titan attacks + 1 Mountain makes 5, then 1 more mountain do 6 more damage (14), Searing Blaze 3 damage (11) to him 3 damage kill 2/2 flyer, Red Titan does 6 damage (5), Green Titan does 6 damage (-1)
Player 1 said he didnt attack turn 4 with the 2/2 flyer in case he needed an extra blocker and he had a turn 5 Guardians Pledge all white creatures get +2/+2, then attack for three 3/3 flying tokens + the 1/1 flyer would be a 3/3 flyer for 12 (-2), he expected the Red Titan but didnt expect the Mass Hysteria. He said it was rare anyone would ever use that card in a deck like this. He also had a Day of Judgement but no 4th land. He would have attacked on turn 4 with the Guardians Pledge for 16 but was worried a Lightning Bolt would hit one of the flyers leaving him defenseless on Player 2's turn 4. Player 2 said he drew the Mass Hysteria on the turn 4 draw. He also said that his version of this deck surprised a lot of people.
I did mention Im still new to Modern like less then a month into it and less then 2 months into Standard after over a decade long layoff from MTG. If I remember correctly, Player 2 won game 1 and I walked by and watched game 2, it went something like this, again I may not remember this perfectly step by step and did not know what was in their hands
Player 1
turn 1 Plain + 1/1 white flying creature
turn 2 Plain + 2/2 white flying creature, attack for 1 (16 w/Stomping Ground damage)
turn 3 Plain + Spectral Procession, attack for 3 (14)
turn 4 drops 2 Serra Avenger, attack with 1/1 and 3 flying tokens for 4 damage (10)
Player 2
turn 1 Stomping Ground + Birds of Paradise
turn 2 Valakut + sorcery that gave him 2 lands and one on the battlefield Mountain tapped
turn 3 Mountain + a red 2 mana version of dark ritual + Green Titan + 1 Mountain + 1 Valakut
turn 4 Stomping Ground +
one drop enchantment giving all creatures haste then a Red Titan, do 3 damage Serra Avenger #1, Red Titan attack do 3 damage Serra Avenger #2, Green Titan attacks + 1 Mountain makes 5, then 1 more mountain do 6 more damage (14), Searing Blaze 3 damage (11) to him 3 damage kill 2/2 flyer, Red Titan does 6 damage (5), Green Titan does 6 damage (-1)
Player 1 said he didnt attack turn 4 with the 2/2 flyer in case he needed an extra blocker and he had a turn 5 Guardians Pledge all white creatures get +2/+2, then attack for three 3/3 flying tokens + the 1/1 flyer would be a 3/3 flyer for 12 (-2), he expected the Red Titan but didnt expect the Mass Hysteria. He said it was rare anyone would ever use that card in a deck like this. He also had a Day of Judgement but no 4th land. He would have attacked on turn 4 with the Guardians Pledge for 16 but was worried a Lightning Bolt would hit one of the flyers leaving him defenseless on Player 2's turn 4. Player 2 said he drew the Mass Hysteria on the turn 4 draw. He also said that his version of this deck surprised a lot of people.
FYI, I may have screwed up the life totals because the Stomping Grounds would have netted 2 damage to the Valakut player, sorry for any confusion
I agree that Thragtusk is too slow/expensive and does not have a lot of impact on turn 5 in Modern, but I disagree with the people who say its dies to Bolt, which makes it bad. If they want to get 2-for-1'd, by all means, let them. Bolt is honestly not that pinnacle of a card it once was in all honestly. Not with the creatures being what they are today. It's not terrible, and deals with a lot of *very* important threats, but it's not going to be good against creatures with good ETB/LTB effects or hexproof. For those, you need counters.
As far as I am concerned, getting a 3/3, gaining 5 life, and removing your lightning bolt from your hand is far from being a poor use of 5 mana, although I'd still want to play something else in Modern. But I don't like the Lightning Bolt argument.
I definitely think Thragtusk is slow for Modern. As a 5-drop in Modern, you're competing with cards like Gifts, Kiki, Thundermaw, Karn/Wurmcoil (we'll call another deck's 5 equal to their 7). All these cards are just better and much more powerful than Thragtusk. 5 life is cool, but you really don't want to tap out for this card that doesn't interact with the board much. You can be dead by 5 or die on the turn after. Yes, against some decks he'll do well, but as a whole in this format, he just doesn't cut it.
Nothing about whether he lives on the next turn is relevant, what's relevant is not dying. If you're playing him with 7 mana, well, that's quite late in this format, do you really expect him to win the game? It's really far into it, your opponent has things to do and he probably doesn't stall the game well enough. Something that interacts more immediately is likely better. It's why Bloodbraid was really powerful, because she has haste and could potentially hit something crazy to provide real pressure.
I actually get really confused why people play this. I always thought Aristocrat or Thundermaw were better end-game creatures than Thragtusk for Jund. I also thought it's terrible in RG Tron because Wurmcoil and Karn are just better creatures; this one always irked me.
Haha in hindsight this conversation is kind of funny now. Thragtusk is definitely modern playable. It's great vs anything aggro. It's seen play in a number of decks even currently
This discussion has been had so if there is any need for further Thragtusk talk then we can always open up a new thread. Also please do not call out people for what seems to be an honest mistake, that's not cool.
I agree with what you say. I actually don't like the idea of using Tusk in Modern. I only said that because there are stubborn players that will insist in playing that card even if there are better options. And Tron is one of the decks that could easily cast it.
^
This.
If I remember correctly, Tusk didn't see a lot of play during Scars-INN because Titans/Wurmcoil were much better.
Delver and mana leak does that to Tusk, Titans or Wurmcoils. It still doesn't change the fact that it is outclassed by these 6 drops.
In a hvy creature game like standard was back then, tusk was awesome. Modern seems to have enough alternate gamestyles tho that tusk isn't as great.
Urza's Mine.
Urza's Tower.
Urza's Powerplant.
...wait, that's 7 mana! How could I have made such a careless mistake!:o
turn 2: land, mana dork, mana dork.
turn 3: land, add 6 to mana pool, cast a titan.
Possible, yes. Reliable? No.
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Ok fine, I can't think of something within Valakut's realm... well unless you use mana dorks.
I think the guy had his turn count off or something, or I might be missing a specific arrangement of dorks that could make it work, I'm drawing blanks right now on non-Tron approaches.
There are other methods as well, none are massively reliable but
I just don't think aggro is rampant enough for it to be 'good', and if it were you have an arguably more resilient 5 drop in Batterskull, and also for one more Mana Wurmcoil has the potential to gain you more life; it's worth noting, too, that each of these is a cheaper alternative to thragtusk ($-wise).
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Strange, I thought it did...
I mean, we're talking Valakut, the Titan-dropping hardcore ramp deck rooted in ye olde late Zendikar Standard, not Scapeshift, the control deck with a noncreature finisher... right?
I swore it was manadork driven...
GRP17 was pretty clear that he is new to modern. He probably didn't see a "Valakut" deck and merely saw a deck that contained Valakut.
I did mention Im still new to Modern like less then a month into it and less then 2 months into Standard after over a decade long layoff from MTG. If I remember correctly, Player 2 won game 1 and I walked by and watched game 2, it went something like this, again I may not remember this perfectly step by step and did not know what was in their hands
Player 1
turn 1 Plain + 1/1 white flying creature
turn 2 Plain + 2/2 white flying creature, attack for 1 (16 w/Stomping Ground damage)
turn 3 Plain + Spectral Procession, attack for 3 (14)
turn 4 drops 2 Serra Avenger, attack with 1/1 and 3 flying tokens for 4 damage (10)
Player 2
turn 1 Stomping Ground + Birds of Paradise
turn 2 Valakut + sorcery that gave him 2 lands and one on the battlefield Mountain tapped
turn 3 Mountain + a red 2 mana version of dark ritual + Green Titan + 1 Mountain + 1 Valakut
turn 4 Stomping Ground +
- Mass Hysteria
one drop enchantment giving all creatures haste then a Red Titan, do 3 damage Serra Avenger #1, Red Titan attack do 3 damage Serra Avenger #2, Green Titan attacks + 1 Mountain makes 5, then 1 more mountain do 6 more damage (14), Searing Blaze 3 damage (11) to him 3 damage kill 2/2 flyer, Red Titan does 6 damage (5), Green Titan does 6 damage (-1)Player 1 said he didnt attack turn 4 with the 2/2 flyer in case he needed an extra blocker and he had a turn 5 Guardians Pledge all white creatures get +2/+2, then attack for three 3/3 flying tokens + the 1/1 flyer would be a 3/3 flyer for 12 (-2), he expected the Red Titan but didnt expect the Mass Hysteria. He said it was rare anyone would ever use that card in a deck like this. He also had a Day of Judgement but no 4th land. He would have attacked on turn 4 with the Guardians Pledge for 16 but was worried a Lightning Bolt would hit one of the flyers leaving him defenseless on Player 2's turn 4. Player 2 said he drew the Mass Hysteria on the turn 4 draw. He also said that his version of this deck surprised a lot of people.
FYI, I may have screwed up the life totals because the Stomping Grounds would have netted 2 damage to the Valakut player, sorry for any confusion
As far as I am concerned, getting a 3/3, gaining 5 life, and removing your lightning bolt from your hand is far from being a poor use of 5 mana, although I'd still want to play something else in Modern. But I don't like the Lightning Bolt argument.
Nothing about whether he lives on the next turn is relevant, what's relevant is not dying. If you're playing him with 7 mana, well, that's quite late in this format, do you really expect him to win the game? It's really far into it, your opponent has things to do and he probably doesn't stall the game well enough. Something that interacts more immediately is likely better. It's why Bloodbraid was really powerful, because she has haste and could potentially hit something crazy to provide real pressure.
I actually get really confused why people play this. I always thought Aristocrat or Thundermaw were better end-game creatures than Thragtusk for Jund. I also thought it's terrible in RG Tron because Wurmcoil and Karn are just better creatures; this one always irked me.
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Killing a 5 mana dude for 1 mana is a huge tempo advantage even if you get a token and some life.
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