You actually can Clone him... and steal him with Sower.
#awkward
Really? Complete misunderstanding of the interaction then, mea culpa and my apologies. Enlighten me.
Is it because he's being targeted by the ability on a permanent rather than a spell? Is that ability considered colorless? So he can be pacified/oblivion ringed/aether adepted, etc?
What about Progenitus, does everything therefore include those colorless ability triggers making him actually immune?
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Really? Complete misunderstanding of the interaction then, mea culpa and my apologies. Enlighten me.
Is it because he's being targeted by the ability on a permanent rather than a spell? Is that ability considered colorless? So he can be pacified/oblivion ringed/aether adepted, etc?
What about Progenitus, does everything therefore include those colorless ability triggers making him actually immune?
You can clone him because clone effects don't target. They just become a copy of another creature of your choice, but never actually target the creature. This is why you are able to clone creatures with Hexproof.
As for Sower, you can Sower emmy because Sower's ability triggers when it comes into play. At this time, Sower is now a permanent, not a spell. So yes, you can Oblivion Ring, Aether Adept, Deceiver Exarch, Pacifism, and Fiend Hunter him.
Proggy cannot be Aether Adept, Fiend Hunter'd, or Sowered because Proggy has Protection from Everything. This means Protection from Permanents, Humans, White Creatures, Spells with the letter "S" om their name, Steamflogger Boss, ect ect.
Really? Complete misunderstanding of the interaction then, mea culpa and my apologies. Enlighten me.
Is it because he's being targeted by the ability on a permanent rather than a spell? Is that ability considered colorless? So he can be pacified/oblivion ringed/aether adepted, etc?
What about Progenitus, does everything therefore include those colorless ability triggers making him actually immune?
colored spells are not creatures
seems counterintuitive because creatures are technically spells on the stack, but sower (and shreikmaw fwiw) are EtB triggers that happen after the spell is resolved.
This is why sower can steal and shreikmaw can kill.
Phantasmal Image does happen on the stack. The trick here is in the wording.
The card says "You may have ~ enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield, etc etc etc"
Since it doesn't target, it is not being targeted by a colored spell.
Neither of the EtB triggers can kill Progenitus, since he can't be targeted. However, he can be Cloned and Wrathed since they don't target.
So he's pingable too? For example, a Cunning Sparkmage + Basilisk Collar could tap/kill Emrakul? I was always under the impression that protection from included Hexproof from.
And just to confirm, all ETB effects can target creatures that have protection from those colors? Only protection from abilities (via Hexproof or Shroud) can truly protect?
yes, you can ping him. a ping (assuming mortarpod) is an ability, not a spell. emrakul's wording says spell. so you can't target it with lightning bolt or something.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
So he's pingable too? For example, a Cunning Sparkmage + Basilisk Collar could tap/kill Emrakul? I was always under the impression that protection from included Hexproof from.
And just to confirm, all ETB effects can target creatures that have protection from those colors? Only protection from abilities (via Hexproof or Shroud) can truly protect?
Well a ping is not a spell, it's an ability, so yet you should be able to ping him if you really wanted too... not sure if it'll help though
Emrakul has pro spells. Triggered abilities are not spells so Sower and Image would work and also because they do not target.
Everyone I have played against are tournament players, I have also played the deck on MTGO in which both those abilities resolved just fine which is further confirmation.
Anyhow, I think Illusions is a good deck in the current meta... even better than Merfolk, it just needs to be refined as every Tier 1 deck has.
And just to confirm, all ETB effects can target creatures that have protection from those colors? Only protection from abilities (via Hexproof or Shroud) can truly protect?
No. Sower of Temptation cannot steal something with protection from blue, for example. Protection prevents targeting by both spells and abilities with the given quality...but the quality for Emrakul is not "coloured things", it's "coloured spells". Emrakul is nearly unique in that regard: the protection offered by Devoted Caretaker is the only other case of protection from spells specifically (instants and sorceries can't be permanents anyway, so it rarely matters, but Caretaker won't save things from a cycled Solar Blast for example).
Back when 12Post was the deck to beat I used to play Goldmeadow Harrier as l33t t3ch against Emrakul.
Well a ping is not a spell, it's an ability, so yet you should be able to ping him if you really wanted too... not sure if it'll help though
Emrakul has pro spells. Triggered abilities are not spells so Sower and Image would work and also because they do not target.
Everyone I have played against are tournament players, I have also played the deck on MTGO in which both those abilities resolved just fine which is further confirmation.
Anyhow, I think Illusions is a good deck in the current meta... even better than Merfolk, it just needs to be refined as every Tier 1 deck has.
Sower specifically says that it targets:
When Sower of Temptation enters the battlefield, gain control of target creature for as long as Sower of Temptation remains on the battlefield.
That's not why you can steal an Emrakul with a Sower.
I was planning on going until my plans fell apart last week. I still have friends going, and they are playing a variety of decks (RUG Delver, Splinter-Twin, Faeries, etc.)
I playtested Living End for a few months, but it's just not consistent enough.
The best deck I have built is Faeries, but honestly...
I would play Martyr-Proc. Although not superior to Faeries, I just know how to play the deck in every single match-up. I'm still learning Faeries.
I would play Martyr as I would do the least amount of mistakes, know my hands, and I still feel confident in a lot of match-ups. The only ones where I fall flat on my face is Splinter-Twin and Affinity, unless I have the god-hand.
As for RG tron, it's certainly powerful, but you're essentially going to be goldfishing for 8 straight hours, without any reliable way to win bad matchups. With RG Tron, you're essentially scooping to Storm Combo, Twin, and Hive Mind, and are probably subpar against the Pod Combo decks as well since they not only have land-destruction off pod typically, but they often can just combo out quicker and win. Some tron people think playing Mindslaver saves them against combo decks, but even with 7 mana on turn 3 (which is only happens around 30-40% of the time), they still need to draw the mindslaver, and even then can't activate until turn 4. Most of the combo decks win turn 3 / 4 in the format, and have disruption to back it up anyway, so that's not really a reliable strategy.
Yup, RG Artifact Tron scoops to fast combo. You are not going to see those Mindslavers anywhere near reliably enough against UR Storm, there's a chance they don't fizzle on Turn 3 when they do see the Slaver, and you'd better get Emrakul or Ulamog fast or they're patient enough to ignore Relic of Progenitus. Against combo, make Karn Liberated nuke lands, not hands.
However, RG Artifact Tron crushes Melira Pod. I've playtested the match-up (at least pre-board), and Melira Pod cannot play around that deck's 16 maindeck outs to the combo (4 Pyroclasm, 4 Karn Liberated, 4 Relic, 2 Oblivion Stone, 1 Emrakul, 1 Ulamog). Always Clasm or O. Stone if Melira Pod has 2 combo pieces out. Make Karn nuke combo pieces immediately, hate bears otherwise, and value creatures third. RG Artifact Tron can win through infinite life--make an Eldrazi continuously wipe their board while Karn exiles an (other) Eldrazi later and restarts the game. Let's just say Tron wins that next game.
I purposefully don't combo off unless I'm forced to (Eldrazi swings, Clasm, Karn targets a combo piece, etc.) when there's a Relic out, and I still tend to lose against Tron with Melira Pod.
Sheesh, I play 2 Tron hate bears maindeck (Thalia, Knight of the Reliquary fetching Tectonic Edge), and RG Artifact Tron still wins 80% of the time. The only way Melira Pod is winning is if it loads up on relevant hate bears instead of weak-powered combo pieces and irrelevant hate bears (like Orzhov Pontiff). I Podded away Melira in that match-up; it was that bad.
Twin Pod's RG Artifact Tron match-up is significantly better, though. Restoration Angel actually makes quite a bit of the difference--foiling Karn by saving stuff from his -3 and killing him next turn through Wurmcoil Engine is funny. The fact that all of Twin Pod's "Exarchs" don't die to Pyroclasm also helps, that Relic can't stop the combo is great, and that a 2-card combo is much harder to telegraph than a 3-card combo (so you can combo off out of nowhere) is the icing on the cake.
When Sower of Temptation enters the battlefield, gain control of target creature for as long as Sower of Temptation remains on the battlefield.
That's not why you can steal an Emrakul with a Sower.
The person you quoted was misled. Image is not a triggered ability and Sower's ability certainly targets.
HOWEVER
Emrakul has protection from colored spells. To break that down, he has protection from any SPELLS that have a COLOR (are not colorless.) So, the first question is, is it a spell? If it is, then is it colored? If it is, Emrakul has protection from it.
Image is a spell when you choose to copy Emrakul, and it's colored, but it circumvents protection (and hexproof, as is relevant with GoST) because it doesn't target.
Sower's ability is colored and it targets, but it's not a spell, so Emrakul doesn't have protection from it the same way he doesn't have protection from JtMS or Sarkhan the Mad.
More on topic, I will be playing storm. I have never played a match irl and hope to decimate faces while not misplaying egregiously. I also think Hurkyl's Recall is serious tech against the majority of hate cards against storm and am looking forward to incorporating it in my board.
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
So yes, you can Oblivion Ring, Aether Adept, Deceiver Exarch, Pacifism, and Fiend Hunter him.
Sorry to keep this going, but you can't use Pacifism unless you put it into play without casting it. Primal Surge
On topic: I play the same deck at all Modern tournaments and that's Undying Flames. The deck is incredibly fun, which is very important when you're going to a tournament you probably won't win.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
lol
I like the idea of playing a deck that can successfully stick elesh norn or something that you are comfortable with.
UW Angel is a solid choice too.
Really? Complete misunderstanding of the interaction then, mea culpa and my apologies. Enlighten me.
Is it because he's being targeted by the ability on a permanent rather than a spell? Is that ability considered colorless? So he can be pacified/oblivion ringed/aether adepted, etc?
What about Progenitus, does everything therefore include those colorless ability triggers making him actually immune?
Modern
RG RG Tron GR
RUG RUG Twin RUG
X Affinity X
You can clone him because clone effects don't target. They just become a copy of another creature of your choice, but never actually target the creature. This is why you are able to clone creatures with Hexproof.
As for Sower, you can Sower emmy because Sower's ability triggers when it comes into play. At this time, Sower is now a permanent, not a spell. So yes, you can Oblivion Ring, Aether Adept, Deceiver Exarch, Pacifism, and Fiend Hunter him.
Proggy cannot be Aether Adept, Fiend Hunter'd, or Sowered because Proggy has Protection from Everything. This means Protection from Permanents, Humans, White Creatures, Spells with the letter "S" om their name, Steamflogger Boss, ect ect.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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colored spells are not creatures
seems counterintuitive because creatures are technically spells on the stack, but sower (and shreikmaw fwiw) are EtB triggers that happen after the spell is resolved.
This is why sower can steal and shreikmaw can kill.
Phantasmal Image does happen on the stack. The trick here is in the wording.
The card says "You may have ~ enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield, etc etc etc"
Since it doesn't target, it is not being targeted by a colored spell.
Neither of the EtB triggers can kill Progenitus, since he can't be targeted. However, he can be Cloned and Wrathed since they don't target.
And just to confirm, all ETB effects can target creatures that have protection from those colors? Only protection from abilities (via Hexproof or Shroud) can truly protect?
Modern
RG RG Tron GR
RUG RUG Twin RUG
X Affinity X
Well a ping is not a spell, it's an ability, so yet you should be able to ping him if you really wanted too... not sure if it'll help though
Emrakul has pro spells. Triggered abilities are not spells so Sower and Image would work and also because they do not target.
Everyone I have played against are tournament players, I have also played the deck on MTGO in which both those abilities resolved just fine which is further confirmation.
Anyhow, I think Illusions is a good deck in the current meta... even better than Merfolk, it just needs to be refined as every Tier 1 deck has.
No. Sower of Temptation cannot steal something with protection from blue, for example. Protection prevents targeting by both spells and abilities with the given quality...but the quality for Emrakul is not "coloured things", it's "coloured spells". Emrakul is nearly unique in that regard: the protection offered by Devoted Caretaker is the only other case of protection from spells specifically (instants and sorceries can't be permanents anyway, so it rarely matters, but Caretaker won't save things from a cycled Solar Blast for example).
Back when 12Post was the deck to beat I used to play Goldmeadow Harrier as l33t t3ch against Emrakul.
Sower specifically says that it targets:
When Sower of Temptation enters the battlefield, gain control of target creature for as long as Sower of Temptation remains on the battlefield.
That's not why you can steal an Emrakul with a Sower.
The deck is not *actually* good. But if noone expects it, it's actually surprisingly successful.
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I playtested Living End for a few months, but it's just not consistent enough.
The best deck I have built is Faeries, but honestly...
I would play Martyr-Proc. Although not superior to Faeries, I just know how to play the deck in every single match-up. I'm still learning Faeries.
I would play Martyr as I would do the least amount of mistakes, know my hands, and I still feel confident in a lot of match-ups. The only ones where I fall flat on my face is Splinter-Twin and Affinity, unless I have the god-hand.
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
Yup, RG Artifact Tron scoops to fast combo. You are not going to see those Mindslavers anywhere near reliably enough against UR Storm, there's a chance they don't fizzle on Turn 3 when they do see the Slaver, and you'd better get Emrakul or Ulamog fast or they're patient enough to ignore Relic of Progenitus. Against combo, make Karn Liberated nuke lands, not hands.
However, RG Artifact Tron crushes Melira Pod. I've playtested the match-up (at least pre-board), and Melira Pod cannot play around that deck's 16 maindeck outs to the combo (4 Pyroclasm, 4 Karn Liberated, 4 Relic, 2 Oblivion Stone, 1 Emrakul, 1 Ulamog). Always Clasm or O. Stone if Melira Pod has 2 combo pieces out. Make Karn nuke combo pieces immediately, hate bears otherwise, and value creatures third. RG Artifact Tron can win through infinite life--make an Eldrazi continuously wipe their board while Karn exiles an (other) Eldrazi later and restarts the game. Let's just say Tron wins that next game.
I purposefully don't combo off unless I'm forced to (Eldrazi swings, Clasm, Karn targets a combo piece, etc.) when there's a Relic out, and I still tend to lose against Tron with Melira Pod.
Sheesh, I play 2 Tron hate bears maindeck (Thalia, Knight of the Reliquary fetching Tectonic Edge), and RG Artifact Tron still wins 80% of the time. The only way Melira Pod is winning is if it loads up on relevant hate bears instead of weak-powered combo pieces and irrelevant hate bears (like Orzhov Pontiff). I Podded away Melira in that match-up; it was that bad.
Twin Pod's RG Artifact Tron match-up is significantly better, though. Restoration Angel actually makes quite a bit of the difference--foiling Karn by saving stuff from his -3 and killing him next turn through Wurmcoil Engine is funny. The fact that all of Twin Pod's "Exarchs" don't die to Pyroclasm also helps, that Relic can't stop the combo is great, and that a 2-card combo is much harder to telegraph than a 3-card combo (so you can combo off out of nowhere) is the icing on the cake.
XXXX
Modern
URTwinRU R.I.P.
EDH
WUGRoon of the Hidden RealmWUG
The person you quoted was misled. Image is not a triggered ability and Sower's ability certainly targets.
HOWEVER
Emrakul has protection from colored spells. To break that down, he has protection from any SPELLS that have a COLOR (are not colorless.) So, the first question is, is it a spell? If it is, then is it colored? If it is, Emrakul has protection from it.
Image is a spell when you choose to copy Emrakul, and it's colored, but it circumvents protection (and hexproof, as is relevant with GoST) because it doesn't target.
Sower's ability is colored and it targets, but it's not a spell, so Emrakul doesn't have protection from it the same way he doesn't have protection from JtMS or Sarkhan the Mad.
More on topic, I will be playing storm. I have never played a match irl and hope to decimate faces while not misplaying egregiously. I also think Hurkyl's Recall is serious tech against the majority of hate cards against storm and am looking forward to incorporating it in my board.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=380755
Sorry to keep this going, but you can't use Pacifism unless you put it into play without casting it. Primal Surge
On topic: I play the same deck at all Modern tournaments and that's Undying Flames. The deck is incredibly fun, which is very important when you're going to a tournament you probably won't win.