Fastest full lockdown in modern

  • #27
    Quote from beast89
    I don't think anyone actually continues to play the game once they've been "locked-out" with mindslaver. So, I don't understand how it offers entertainment or creative decision making because that part of the game is never actually played out. A player will just concede if you can establish the mindslaver lock. So, it's actually just like combo.


    I was talking about what happens when someone is taking a Mindslaver turn, not when the Mindslaver lock is already in place. There is a distinct difference between one Mindslavered turn and someone never having another turn in the game. I know this because I have been Slavered and gone on to win games, and I have Slavered people and gone on to lose games. That's what's fun about it: thinking about ways to win through your opponent using all of your available resources against you. Or just enjoying watching someone completely work a board position over.

    Quote from DrWorm
    My guess is you are in the minority when you say you think it is fun to be the target of Mindslaver. That is just a guess, so I could be wrong, but I fail to see how that level of elimination of power could be fun once the lock is on. I love playing control mirrors, and when I face a deck that is owning me my first instinct is not to want to play another deck- I want to play again until I am able to find a way to beat it. Mindsalver, in my opinion, is on another level of control.


    I probably am in the minority. Then again, I respect a good beating when I see one--even if I'm the guy on the receiving end.

    If I gauged fun on whether I was winning or not I would not play this game. Because I tend to like to try rogue decks or rogue builds of established decks, and I feel that you never get better unless you are playing someone better than you, I loose more often than I win.


    Of course. I was talking more about players in general, including myself. It's very difficult to strive to win a game, then take the loss in stride and immediately respect the opponent for winning the game. Naturally, if you're trying your hardest to win, it's a challenge to handle that distaste from losing. That feeling from Mindslaver that says "there's nothing I can do" is only going to make that harder after a loss, no matter how mature the player is.

    I was not clear enough in my exaggerated rant, but when I said "that I know of" I was trying to communicate that I was talking about for me personally. I then mentioned MaRo and AaFo because comments that they have made with regards to what research has shown what players find "fun" and "unfun". That is about as far as I am comfortable as I am extrapolating my opinion on other players. When I say "Mindslaver is the most unfun card in magic" I am talking about my opinion, since it would be pure arrogance to think that everyone thought like I did in this regard.


    Well, of course it's your opinion! I decided that it was worth sharing my opinion, as well, to have a counter-point in the discussion. I know you don't project your opinion on other people like that; sometimes when I share my opinion I can come on a bit strong because of my lust for debate.

    Also I was not truly making an assertion as to the actual existance of an afterlife, of a state of punnishment after death, or of what the requirements were for that punishment. Additionally I did not mean to advocate for the existance of the Judeo-Christian idea of "hell".


    Don't worry, there's a special place in Hell for the people who take everything literally. :p
  • #28
    Isochron Scepter (w/ Silence) and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is the fastest lockdown possible. It's lockdown T4-5 usually. If they don't have an answer to your EoT Teferi, you win.
  • #29
    Quote from NavyJoe
    Isochron Scepter (w/ Silence) and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is the fastest lockdown possible. It's lockdown T4-5 usually. If they don't have an answer to your EoT Teferi, you win.


    Very true. But I can't think of any way to build a deck around this interaction that isn't too slow, clunky and inconsistent.
  • #30
    Quote from i-never-smile
    Well, of course it's your opinion! I decided that it was worth sharing my opinion, as well, to have a counter-point in the discussion. I know you don't project your opinion on other people like that; sometimes when I share my opinion I can come on a bit strong because of my lust for debate.
    Thank you for making that distinction, I should not have taken it personally. I apologize, sometime I get a little sensitive about being lumped in with the arrogant population of the interwebs- especially I sense I have the tendency to be a bit of a know-it-all (though surprisingly enough I don't) in real life.

    Perhaps I misunderstood because you never smile. Have you ever noticed that?
    GaJo
    tumblr: thewormturns
    MTGO: Dr Worm
    EDH: Earl, Ghaiji Aggro, Snow Patrol, Shirei, Eeshatron, Momir Big, What's Yours is Mine, Punisher
    Modern: Red Snow Devotion, X-Force, Black Devotion Control
    Currently Testing: Fever Dream

    ؟ is the "Irony Mark", but since no one seems to be able to use the term "irony" correctly, I hereby dub it the "Sarcasm Mark."
  • #31
    Quote from beast89
    Very true. But I can't think of any way to build a deck around this interaction that isn't too slow, clunky and inconsistent.


    Wouldn't Erayo be faster because it is 2-3 turns rather than 4-5?
  • #32
    Erayo is not a hard lock. It's a soft lock.

    UW Teferi control wouldn't be hard to build. Playing Gifts to grab Teferi, Noxious Revival, Isochron Scepter, Silence. You get 2 of the pieces.
  • #33
    Quote from NavyJoe
    Erayo is not a hard lock. It's a soft lock.

    UW Teferi control wouldn't be hard to build. Playing Gifts to grab Teferi, Noxious Revival, Isochron Scepter, Silence. You get 2 of the pieces.
    LOL, you could even use Knowledge Pool for a late game plan B.
    GaJo
    tumblr: thewormturns
    MTGO: Dr Worm
    EDH: Earl, Ghaiji Aggro, Snow Patrol, Shirei, Eeshatron, Momir Big, What's Yours is Mine, Punisher
    Modern: Red Snow Devotion, X-Force, Black Devotion Control
    Currently Testing: Fever Dream

    ؟ is the "Irony Mark", but since no one seems to be able to use the term "irony" correctly, I hereby dub it the "Sarcasm Mark."
  • #34
    Scepter + Silence is a nice little combo that most decks can't remove main deck once it has been established. Supplement it with creature removal and lifegain/counters to stop whatever instant-speed burn your opponent may have, and you have quite the Soft Lock.

    Combine with Teferi and you have a Hard Lock. The good part about the combo is that you're not making yourself vulnerable early to pull it off; the best way to play out the combo is when you've already been blowing your hand to remove every threat you could before dropping it. If you keep their board clear of threats when this hits, you will win 95% of the time.
  • #35
    So many people are ignoring the fact that scepter lock isn't playable because card filtering in the modern format has been nerfed into the ground.

    The only reason erayo affinity and the mindslaver lock are competitive is because both decks use a shell that can compete with the field without actually seeing erayo or mindslaver.

    Erayo affinity in particular is powerful because cranial plating,inmoth nexus, and master of etherium are all excellent backup plans.
  • #36
    Quote from Razorgore
    Erayo affinity in particular is powerful because cranial plating,inmoth nexus, and master of etherium are all excellent backup plans.
    so then why could you not just build a scepter lock in to that instead of Erayo?
    GaJo
    tumblr: thewormturns
    MTGO: Dr Worm
    EDH: Earl, Ghaiji Aggro, Snow Patrol, Shirei, Eeshatron, Momir Big, What's Yours is Mine, Punisher
    Modern: Red Snow Devotion, X-Force, Black Devotion Control
    Currently Testing: Fever Dream

    ؟ is the "Irony Mark", but since no one seems to be able to use the term "irony" correctly, I hereby dub it the "Sarcasm Mark."
  • #37
    Quote from beast89
    Can somebody tell me how to set up the lock Mindslaver + Academy Ruins
    I'm guessing you fetch it with gifts ungiven. But what exactly is the package that you're supposed to fetch?

    Slaver, Ruins, Crucible of Worlds, and whatever other scary card (ideally a land or artifact) guarantees the lock against a goldfish, though it might take a couple turns to set up.
  • #38
    Assuming I left my Slaver Lock hate at home, I'll probably give you the Slaver and the scary card (Wurmcoil Engine/Sundering Titan/Batterskull/Karn Liberated/Inkwell Leviathan/not an Eldrazi) every time. You need the fourth card to be Buried Ruin/Noxious Revival/Expedition Map (assuming you have more than one Ruins in your deck)/Tolaria West (ditto)/Life from the Loam (if you splash green) to guarantee the Slaver lock. (I prefer Buried Ruin, as it's a land at worst and it doesn't require modified deck-building to use.)

    Some people use Eldrazi in the same deck as the Slaver lock; if someone accidentally gives me the Slaver-Ruins-Crucible-Eldrazi pile, I'll give that person the Crucible and Ruins all the time, as the buried Eldrazi automatically shuffles the Slaver back in before Ruins can put it on top of the library.
    Last edited by Lectrys: 1/7/2012 12:34:36 AM
  • #39
    Quote from DrWorm
    so then why could you not just build a scepter lock in to that instead of Erayo?


    Because the scepter lock is only a soft lock whereas the erayo lock is a hard lock. I've said this so many times on this thread.

    Also, affinity decks are already synergistic with erayo because the goal of affinity is to play as many spells as it can in a single turn (and that's usually a pretty high number).


    Quote from NavyJoe
    Erayo is not a hard lock. It's a soft lock.


    If you want to contradict my claim, please, at least give an explanation of why you're saying that. What you're saying might not be wrong, but it's far from obvious.
    Last edited by Beast89: 1/7/2012 12:48:26 AM
  • #40
    The Erayo lock is only a hard lock if you add Ethersworn Canonist or Rule of Law in it. (Erayo Affinity does run Canonist, turning it into a hard lock.)

    Sadly, at least one commonly played spell in Modern can disrupt the Erayo lock (assuming Canonist is the second piece) once completed--Shattering Spree. Replicate it at least once and Erayo can't counter everything.

    The Erayo lock also does nothing if your opponent has a large enough board presence before it is completed--I once had a player concede after assembling the Erayo lock because I had a Goyf on the other side of the board at that time. (Granted, that player could only assemble the lock after quite a few turns of play--the Erayo lock is a little inconsistent to assemble, as it requires four spells in rapid sequence.)
    Last edited by Lectrys: 1/7/2012 12:57:36 AM
  • #41
    Quote from Lectrys
    Assuming I left my Slaver Lock hate at home, I'll probably give you the Slaver and the scary card (Wurmcoil Engine/Sundering Titan/Batterskull/Karn Liberated/Inkwell Leviathan/not an Eldrazi) every time. You need the fourth card to be Buried Ruin/Noxious Revival/Expedition Map (assuming you have more than one Ruins in your deck)/Tolaria West (ditto)/Life from the Loam (if you splash green) to guarantee the Slaver lock. (I prefer Buried Ruin, as it's a land at worst and it doesn't require modified deck-building to use.)

    Oh, right, wasn't thinking there. The fourth card does have to be Noxious Revival to guarantee the lock.
  • #42
    Quote from Lectrys
    The Erayo lock is only a hard lock if you add Ethersworn Canonist or Rule of Law in it. (Erayo Affinity does run Canonist, turning it into a hard lock.)


    Yes, this is what is meant by the "Erayo lock". Nobody thinks that Erayo by itself is a hard lock.


    Sadly, at least one commonly played spell in Modern can disrupt the Erayo lock (assuming Canonist is the second piece) once completed--Shattering Spree. Replicate it at least once and Erayo can't counter everything.


    Interesting to know. I didn't know that replicate can get around canonist / rule of law. If what you say is true, then we must conclude that:

    Erayo + Canonist = soft lock but
    Erayo + Rule = hard lock


    The Erayo lock also does nothing if your opponent has a large enough board presence before it is completed--I once had a player concede after assembling the Erayo lock because I had a Goyf on the other side of the board at that time. (Granted, that player could only assemble the lock after quite a few turns of play--the Erayo lock is a little inconsistent to assemble, as it requires four spells in rapid sequence.)


    Yup, this is very true. This is one of the drawbacks of the whole "lock-out" strategy. You also need to be able to deal with stuff that's already hit the board before you've locked-out the game (or you have to make sure that nothing dangerous hits the board before your lock is established).
  • #43
    Not that it sees, but Obliterate breaks the Eryao-Rule lock as does cycling the blue megacycler from Alar block, so it's not a true hard lock. The only true lock I can think of is Trinisphere, Crucible of Worlds, Strip mine by turn 2. Anything else can be answered one way or another.
    "A little nonsense now and then is cherished by the wisest men."
    - Willy Wonka
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