It's got a random Razor Golem in because I currently don't want to cough up 2 tix for another Standard Bearer right now.
I haven't run dailies with it yet; probably on the weekend. So far in casuals, it's destroying any creature based matchup. Those Holy Day and Rest for the Weary are way better than I thought they would be.
Anthony Sansone has won a few 3-1 + these recent dailies, so it's got something going for it!
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Hi guys, I've just gotten into Pauper and having played white weenie style of decks in other formats (most recently Tempered Steel) I naturally gravitated towards this deck. I noticed this topic has been a bit dead so I was hoping I could start up some discussion points. As I said I'm still in the process of learning the format (having only played 3 DEs so far and a handful of practice matches with the deck).
As far as I can tell the core (i.e cards every version of the deck runs) is:
From there the deck usually goes in one of two directions:
1) A more aggressive deck based around War Falcon and a much lower curve.
2) A higher curve deck that outclasses other decks with undercosted beaters like Razor Golem and the difficult to remove Guardian of the Guildpact.
I've seen some hybrid versions of these two ideas but those seem worse than the two individual ideas. The main point I wanted to discuss here is which style people think is better. Is it simply a matter of preference or are there actual advantages to each? I started off with a Razor Golem/Guardian version but have since gravitated towards the more aggressive War Falcon versions. The Razor Golem version crushed me in the mirror thanks to Guardian of the Guildpact in one DE I played in and I can certainly see why going "bigger" would be better in the mirror. Guardian is also pretty good against the decks like Cloudpost that are trying to attrition you out as he's pretty tough for them to deal with (and putting a Bonesplitter on him represents a very fast clock). The deck is fairly land light however and even on 21 lands Guardians can still get stuck in your hand at times. Having a higher curve is usually a bad thing as well against a deck like mono-blue Delver that tries to stick early threats and prey on expensive cards with their counter-magic and tempo spells.
Transitioning to something a bit different, what is the best way to play around mono-U Delver's countermagic (Daze and Spellstutter Sprite in particular). At times it doesn't even seem possible to do so. For example when they run out turn 2 Cloud of Faeries on the play and pass with two mana up they're pretty much going to get you with one of those two cards no matter what they play (unless you have a Javelineers in play but you can't always count on that). You could just pass the turn back but that seems like a poor idea as well since then they get to sculpt their hand with their cantrips, set up their Delvers, etc. Should you just accept the 2-for-1 by baiting out the Spellstutter with your worse threat? We can make up the card advantage later with Squadron Hawks but it's still annoying to have your whole turn wasted AND they get to add a body to their side. Ideally you will have two 1 drops so after they counter the first you can still run out the second. As for Daze is it worth playing around at all in the early game? On the draw they're going to get us with it almost no matter what since we'd put ourselves too far behind playing around it but on the play we could in theory play around it if we wanted. Obviously later in the game when I have more mana to work with I make sure not to unnecessarily walk into Daze but early game it's difficult to always avoid it while still mounting an offence.
Is there any situation we should be siding out Squadron Hawks? I've been siding them out in the mono-green stompy matchup lately and have not really missed them at all there. I know they're one of our main sources of card advantage but the 1/1 bodies just aren't very relevant against most of the threats stompy plays (especially when Rancored up). In addition Stompy often boards into Scattershot Archers against us which hoses the Hawks pretty badly
Is mulliganing aggressively for the sideboard hate cards a good strategy against Storm? Game 1 is for the most part a lost cause against them (we pretty much have to hope they fizzle barring a maindeck Strands) but after board we get a lot of good answers against them. My strategy has been to play out a threat the first couple of turns and then leave up 3 mana for Prismatic Strands every turn after that (assuming I don't draw a Unicorn). I know this doesn't put them on quite as fast of a clock and gives them more time to sculpt their hand but getting caught with our pants down when they combo off seems like an easy way to lose and I have certainly been comboed out by them on turn 3. It also forces them to find their Flaring Pain which they often have only one or two copies of in their board it seems.
Is this a good block vs Infect?. In the last DE I played against Infect in round 4 and my opponent (on the play) ran out forest and Glistener Elf turn 1 followed on turn 2 by a second Forest and attacked into my turn 1 Icatian Javelineers. I ended up blocking with the Javelineers based on the fact that any of the following combinations of pump spells would have killed me by letting it through:
-2x Invigorate plus any 3rd pump
-2x Groundswell and Mutagenic Growth
-1x Invigorate, 1x kicked Vines of Vastwood, 1x Mutagenic Growth
-1x Invigorate, 1x Groundswell, 1x Mutagenic Growth
I'd have felt pretty silly losing to any of those though they are all 3 card combos so perhaps my concerns were unwarranted. I did end up winning that game and the match for what it's worth but that doesn't necessarily mean the block was good.
What are the best matchups to bring Holy Light in against? It's obviously a great trump against Empty the Warrens but there's a bunch of other matchups where I've thought "hey this might be good" and then ultimately left it on the side since it didn't seem quite as good as other options. I brought it in against the Infect opponent from before and it hosed him pretty well (killing 3 Blight Mambas when he was tapped out) and it seems really good against them in general as most of their dudes are 1 toughness. It also seems like it could be okay against Goblins but Sledder/Raider makes it a bit worse. One other matchup I thought about it for was mono-blue delver but it only reliably kills their 8 faeries there (and sometimes unflipped Delvers) so it's probably not worth it.
What do people think of Gideon's Lawkeeper/Goldmeadow Harrier in this deck? I've been running him as a 2-of in my list and I've always been happy to draw him. Being able to lockdown your opponent's best creature is really useful and he always seems to overperform. I've been considering adding a 3rd copy. I've also noticed some people run a 2/2 split of Lawkeeper/Harrier. I'm assuming this is primarily to get around the Echoing cards (Decay/Truth) but is there any other reason for this?
What about Attended Knight? I started off with 4 of this guy in my War Falcon list but I've cut them down to 2 and haven't been overly happy with them. He's okay against a deck with small creatures and combos decently with Kor Skyfisher but overall he has been rather underwhelming and I haven't really needed him to turn on my War Falcons as the deck has plenty of other soldiers. I don't know what else to run in his place though. Maindeck Kor Sanctifiers might be an okay replacement, or perhaps Razor Golems (though I run Secluded Steppes so that might not be the best idea). Any suggestions? For reference this is my most recent list: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=150130
One last card I want to discuss is Suture Priest. I honestly don't like this card very much. I know it's a good maindeck answer to Empty the Warrens but at its core it's a 2 mana 1/1. It just doesn't do much in combat without a Bonesplitter and I don't really like the idea of a creature that sits there and can't attack/block or really interact with my opponent's creatures profitably at all. It seems like the majority of lists use this guy though so perhaps I'm underestimating the life swings it can generate?
Feel free to address any of the particular discussion points you guys want. On a semi-related note I'm looking for a Pauper clan to join for testing purposes since I don't really want to spew value on 2-man queues and the quality of competition in the Tournament Practice room is rather....suspect at times. So if anyone has some suggestions let me know.
I believe I played Dromar in the DE yesterday with Stompy and it was a fairly close matchup. I can give some of my thoughts about the particular build he's discussing.
Squadron Hawk should never be sided out in any matchup really. The card just gives you gas and carries a Bonesplitter as well as any card in the deck. If you're behind it helps you reestablish some board position. If you're ahead it pretty much seals the deal. If you're racing it helps you chump block and save life. In particular against Stompy it does all of the above and you cannot discount it just because of 2 cards, one of which is a SB card some people don't even use. Its the 2nd best T2 play WW can make besides Kor Skyfisher. I wouldn't even side it out vs. storm because it's helping me thin my deck to dig for the silver bullet.
I do not believe War Falcon is the way to take the deck at all. You have so many other 1 drops which give you fantastic value why play a 2/1 that is conditional and dies to anything? You're saying you have issues with Scattershot Archer, yet you're playing War Falcon?
Suture Priest is good against any aggro deck. If you have Priest and they can't get rid of it, its almost impossible for them to win any kind of race. You never attack with Suture Priest unless you're 100% sure. You just let it sit back and do the work for you. I wouldn't play 4x but at least 2 or 3 MD is a good idea. As a Stompy player, Priest is one of the cards I kill ASAP if I have Hornet Sting.
I was unimpressed with Attended Knight when its played against me. Razor Golem is an automatic 4x for WW I think. It attacks well, hard to kill in the format and also plays defense.
Steppe is just bad because you're only playing 21 lands and you're really looking to hit 4 lands.
In defence of the war falcon build, it's got a far better chance of beating post than the traditional build. It's still not a great matchup but it's at least not an auto loss. War falcon is worth looking at because it's the only 2 power for 1 creature that white has in pauper (suspend aside). It's also a great play vs delver.
I believe I played Dromar in the DE yesterday with Stompy and it was a fairly close matchup. I can give some of my thoughts about the particular build he's discussing.
Squadron Hawk should never be sided out in any matchup really. The card just gives you gas and carries a Bonesplitter as well as any card in the deck. If you're behind it helps you reestablish some board position. If you're ahead it pretty much seals the deal. If you're racing it helps you chump block and save life. In particular against Stompy it does all of the above and you cannot discount it just because of 2 cards, one of which is a SB card some people don't even use. Its the 2nd best T2 play WW can make besides Kor Skyfisher. I wouldn't even side it out vs. storm because it's helping me thin my deck to dig for the silver bullet.
I do not believe War Falcon is the way to take the deck at all. You have so many other 1 drops which give you fantastic value why play a 2/1 that is conditional and dies to anything? You're saying you have issues with Scattershot Archer, yet you're playing War Falcon?
Suture Priest is good against any aggro deck. If you have Priest and they can't get rid of it, its almost impossible for them to win any kind of race. You never attack with Suture Priest unless you're 100% sure. You just let it sit back and do the work for you. I wouldn't play 4x but at least 2 or 3 MD is a good idea. As a Stompy player, Priest is one of the cards I kill ASAP if I have Hornet Sting.
I was unimpressed with Attended Knight when its played against me. Razor Golem is an automatic 4x for WW I think. It attacks well, hard to kill in the format and also plays defense.
Steppe is just bad because you're only playing 21 lands and you're really looking to hit 4 lands.
Yeah we played in round 3 yesterday. I can see your point on the Hawks vs Scattershot Archers but it still really sucks to have one of your cards completely blanked. The ideal case is obviously that they can help you stabilize/buy time to find your removal and good late game creatures but against Stompy it doesn't seem like it plays out that way all to often. Rancor as well as Pit Skulks are hard for Hawks to interact favorably with and often Stompy is attacking with multiple creatures so 1 Hawk is only preventing 2 or 3 damage. Admittedly I haven't played the matchup a ton (3 times in DEs so far and a few times in the practice room) so I could be wrong. Is Benevolent Unicorn a worthwhile SB card against Stompy? I thought about bringing them in since they blank Hornet Sting (and potentially Sandstorm I guess) but couldn't really find stuff I wanted to cut.
I also wouldn't side the Hawks out vs Storm. I side out my spot removal before anything else since they're dead cards in that matchup. I actually played Storm in the first round of that DE and my SB plan was (I believe) -3 Journey, -2 Unmake, -2 Attended Knight for +1 Prismatic Strands, +1 Safe Passage, +3 Holy Light, +2 Benevolent Unicorn. Knights came out for being clunky and since I want to hold my mana open for Strands once I have 3 lands anyways.
I don't really have a problem with Scattershot Archers per-se but having 8 cards that die to him on his own is pretty annoying which is why I would lean towards siding out the Hawks. The thing about War Falcon though is that not only is he great offensively but he's very good as a defensive card too. Against a lot of the other creature decks WW has to assume the role of the control deck and War Falcon can essentially be an Oona's Gatewarden the way those games often play out, trading with any 2 toughness threats and buying you time for your superior end game to take shape. The fact that it's conditional also doesn't come up very frequently since the deck has plenty of soldiers/knights...if you want War Falcon to attack he will be able to a large amount of the time.
I see what you're saying about Suture Priest, I've just found that I don't actually get into racing situations very often against other creature decks. It's usually just me trying to stabilize against them (which to be fair Priest can help do thanks to lifegain) by trading off creatures and using the fact that many of my creatures have built in CA to gain the eventual edge. Thre's the odd time where I'll race with a flyer plus Bonesplitter (or because I have Prismatic Strands) but that seems to be more of a rare case. I'll keep trying it as a 2-of though to get a better idea.
I do like Razor Golem quite a bit as he outclasses pretty well anything in the format.
I think Steppe is okay if you keep your curve low. I didn't like it as a 4-of but as a 3-of it seems to work well and it's very rare that I've had otherwise keepable hands wrecked by a Steppe being there over a Plains. I've found it very good to have in the mirror since it helps ensure I'll have more gas than my opponent. If I were playing Razor Golems and Guardians of the Guildpact I wouldn't play Steppes though.
In defence of the war falcon build, it's got a far better chance of beating post than the traditional build. It's still not a great matchup but it's at least not an auto loss. War falcon is worth looking at because it's the only 2 power for 1 creature that white has in pauper (suspend aside). It's also a great play vs delver.
I agree that the War Falcon build plays out a bit better against the Post decks just by way of giving them less time to stabilize but that's such a poor matchup regardless I wouldn't run it just based on that reason. As I said what I like about him is not only is he very aggressive but he can also be good defensively in a pinch and there's a lot of matchups where we do have to be the defensive deck.
I have played various versions of this deck in an ongoing attempt to not get crushed by UR Cloudpost. What can I do to have a decent chance against them? I feel like it is nearly unwinnable.
I have played various versions of this deck in an ongoing attempt to not get crushed by UR Cloudpost. What can I do to have a decent chance against them? I feel like it is nearly unwinnable.
It's nearly unwinnable. C'est la vie.
being inherently more agressive, the war falcon/soldiers version has a slightly better chance. but it's only a slight improvement, it's a really bad matchup for the deck.
I have played various versions of this deck in an ongoing attempt to not get crushed by UR Cloudpost. What can I do to have a decent chance against them? I feel like it is nearly unwinnable.
Not much you can do, the matchup is extremely unfavorable for WW. Like Psychobabble said the more aggressive versions with War Falcon have a better shot than the slower versions relying on Guardian of the Guildpact and/or Razor Golem, but even then you're still a significant underdog. It gets even worse now that they get to play Electrickery over Seismic Shudder too. Before you could at least feel confident putting a bunch of flyers into play but now all your Hawks and War Falcons get killed by their go-to sweeper as well. For an aggro deck with no reach something like U/R Cloudpost is pretty much the biggest nightmare matchup possible.
i'm afraid that due to the prevalence of post atm, if you want to play aggro you should play green stompy which has an excellent post matchup. Its creatures hit harder, faster and are more resilient (especially to 1-damage pingers, including serrated arrows which pwns WW).
I can see your point on the Hawks vs Scattershot Archers but it still really sucks to have one of your cards completely blanked. The ideal case is obviously that they can help you stabilize/buy time to find your removal and good late game creatures but against Stompy it doesn't seem like it plays out that way all to often. Rancor as well as Pit Skulks are hard for Hawks to interact favorably with and often Stompy is attacking with multiple creatures so 1 Hawk is only preventing 2 or 3 damage. Admittedly I haven't played the matchup a ton (3 times in DEs so far and a few times in the practice room) so I could be wrong.
As a stompy player, I can definitely say that Squadron Hawks is one of your worst cards against us. It's just so slow. You already have card advantage against stompy because they are throwing away cards to deal damage. Playing a 1/1 for 2 just to get some card advantage is not where you want to be in this match up, I feel. The fact that the card advantage comprises of other 1/1s for 2 makes it even worse. It can lead to some pretty huge tempo blow-outs, which is exactly the game stompy wants to be playing. Yes, it's good with Bonesplitter, but Bonesplitter is the good card in this interaction, not Squadron Hawks. The fact that you paid two mana for the creature actually matters a lot.
Stabilization cards against stompy are your high-toughness creatures like Kor Skyfisher, Razor Golem, and (to a lesser extent because he's so expensive) Guardian of the Guildpact. You need multiples, because they're just going to pump right through the first one you drop. These guys are the crux of your defense against stompy.
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There's been mention of Suture Priest, and I'd like to add that stompy can easily race Suture Priest; to a lesser extent they can still even race two of them. It's still a fine card because it stalls a little, but the damage to them is negligible. It's still a 1/1 for 2 that you never want to block with, so it's not exactly great. I'd probably still keep it in unless I had a better card against them. I will never waste a Hornet Sting on one though, unless I absolutely had to. Not while Standard Bearer exists...
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There might be some benefit to not bringing Standard Bearer in the match up, at least in tournament-level play. The stompy player knows that they have to side in X cards to avoid an auto-loss, and it slows their deck down. Instead of playing a bunch of 1/1s you never want to block with, you could side into a more defensive-minded deck and blank all their Horner Stings (which used to be pump spells). I'm not sure if this would work or not, but it might be an interesting way to "metagame" your opponent.
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All told, the stompy match-up is very close. I feel like they are the favorite in a fair match, but WW has trump cards that make them cry. I think this pushes WW to a slight favorite in the match up, but WW could easily not draw the trump cards, or stompy could negate them, or stompy could just get off to a quick start. I'd place WW a slight favorite to win in 3, but stompy is a pretty big favorite to win game 1.
All told, the stompy match-up is very close. I feel like they are the favorite in a fair match, but WW has trump cards that make them cry. I think this pushes WW to a slight favorite in the match up, but WW could easily not draw the trump cards, or stompy could negate them, or stompy could just get off to a quick start. I'd place WW a slight favorite to win in 3, but stompy is a pretty big favorite to win game 1.
fwiw, that's my experience. Game 1 stompy is favoured, but in a best of 3 ww has the edge. Unless ww gets the complete blowout combo of standard bearer + benevolent unicorn setup though, it'll generally be close.
I'm avoiding creatures that die easily to 1 damage spells. The only ones that do are the Javelineers--but they are needed. And all of the armorers tend to get the toughness out of danger range pretty quickly.
In any event, I'm new to pauper and this deck is probably going in entirely the wrong direction. But part of the fun with Pauper is you can brew--new decks cost very little! I've been mostly playing in the TP, but I know good decks and players when I face them and am doing my best to only factor in results from those matches in my observations.
Land Count
I'm not sure if I have it right yet--but I have noticed that I can recover from slight mana screw, but that flood always kills me. So my current land count is keeping that in mind.
Match-Ups
UR Post:
I am actually in the game. In fact, I have been winning more than I lose--but that may just be luck and sample size. That being said, I feel that I have made this match-up at least winnable. The resilient creatures and all the toughness pumps really help to avoid their sweepers
Blue Delver
I think my list is a little weaker in this MU than traditional ones--but I still win my fair share. I'd appreciate any advice for improving this one including some sideboard slots. Currently I'm testing mana tithe and it is at least promising so far--but it is too soon to tell.
Affinity
This is a tough one if they come out fast in the first game. Post board it is better. But I could probably use some help here. What do most people side vs. Affinity aside from more journeys and the Dust to Dusts?
Storm
I seem to be winning more than I lose. But that could be a function of the TP as I feel storm is a special case--many players have good decks, but it is hard to know if they are good at playing them. 4 maindeck strands helps a lot vs. grapeshot (and to some degree ETW). But perhaps I need more SB hate before I hit the DEs. How good are unicorns?
Green Stompy
I have been doing very well here. The fact that they can't kill my 'lords' and I have 4 MD strands seems to make me do better than your average WW.
In any event, I'm sure this has all been done before--but I'm still enjoying it. I thought I'd share. If anyone has any suggestions I'd love to hear them.
EDIT: well mono-blue post is definitely a problem as my toughness pumps do little against them--and mono-blue seems to be gaining in popularity over Izzet. But I'm working on that matchup and would appreciate any suggestions for cards against them.
Also, the Azorius Arrester has turned out to be a fantastic soldier and I am now maining 4 of them.
There might be some benefit to not bringing Standard Bearer in the match up, at least in tournament-level play. The stompy player knows that they have to side in X cards to avoid an auto-loss, and it slows their deck down. Instead of playing a bunch of 1/1s you never want to block with, you could side into a more defensive-minded deck and blank all their Horner Stings (which used to be pump spells). I'm not sure if this would work or not, but it might be an interesting way to "metagame" your opponent.
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All told, the stompy match-up is very close. I feel like they are the favorite in a fair match, but WW has trump cards that make them cry. I think this pushes WW to a slight favorite in the match up, but WW could easily not draw the trump cards, or stompy could negate them, or stompy could just get off to a quick start. I'd place WW a slight favorite to win in 3, but stompy is a pretty big favorite to win game 1.
When I board against WW I'm not likely to take out many pump spells. I'm more likely to maximize damage as much as possible, which means I would bring in creature control Hornet Sting, enchantment/artifact removal (because Journey/Oblivion Ring can wreck havoc on Stompy) I don't think I would board out many pump spells. I'm more likely to board Q Ranger for archer, a nettle settle and my weakest pump spell (which is Gather Courage) for hornet sting and gleeful sabotage.
Not only does Hornet Sting take care of Standard Bearer, Gleeful Sabotage eliminates Razor Golem but also all of the Journey/Oblivion effects.
But I use Gather Courage as a "burn spell" in Stompy it is almost always used as a block trick.''
EDIT: to the deck above I think I lay waste to a version of this deck with Vault Skirge and Rancor and then a few well placed Vines.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
I've been playing sparsely in DEs for the last 6 months and tuning this deck. I've 3-1'd a few times and 4-0'd once. Here's what I'm currently running.
I just cut him to lower my curve. I want to play 18 lands right now. Flooding is just the absolute worst thing that can happen to you with this deck. I haven't found him to be relevant in any matchups really. I feel like he should shine against control, but he's a great target for countermagic, and Serrated Arrows. By the time he's down they might already have an Ulamog's Crusher anyway. He does nothing against Affinity and he's a liability vs any combo deck because he's never coming down in time to matter.
I used to be a big fan of this card but I'm not sure it's where we really want to be right now. Mono Green usually kills you in one or two shots and Prismatic Strands is really what you want against them anyway. Infect ignores life. Affinity ignores everything. It's been ok vs Delver but I prefer something that can pressure them. I haven't run into Goblins in ages, which is where this would really shine but the matchup is already favourable.
I upped him to 4 in an effort to fight Electrickery but maybe I just need to forget about the post matchup. He's great against Delver since none of their flyers can trade with yours and Skyfisher becomes a huge problem for them. He also stops Scattershot Archer, turns on War Falcon, and generally helps your combat math. Pairing him with Standard Bearer creates a nearly unwinnable board state for Mono Green and Infect.
VS Post
I moved to the "all flying" version early on to beat post and it worked pretty well. They couldn't really block anything so an early Bonesplitter on anything followed by more threats to use up their removal was a good position to be in. Now they have Electrickery and I'm stumped. Veteran Armorer helps but they can bolt him and then wrath. I've brought Loyal Cathar back for this MU so we'll see if he helps.
VS Storm
This is another matchup where I like to have a low curve. I feel like I'm 50/50 against them. If I can put them under some serious pressure game 1 I've found they will be forced to go off and Grapeshot my team instead of me, just to survive. They can rarely climb back into it with no board and no hand, provided I don't flood out.
For those of you asking about Benevolent Unicorn. It is the real deal. I routinely get concessions to a turn 2 Unicorn.
Here are a couple of nice pieces of tech I've learned:
1. If you have Squadron Hawk and Prismatic Strands, you can search up the full 3 hawks and discard Strands on your end step, giving you turn 2 protection.
2. I haven't tried this yet, but on the draw G1 if I see a sac land and I have a one drop and Strands in hand, skip my land drop to discard Strands and then play my one drop on turn two. I'm not sure if this is a good idea since it really hinders the amount of pressure I can put them under, but it guarantees I'm protected from them going off on 3 or me missing my 3rd land drop.
You're the control deck here since they can kill on turn 2 or 3. It is (almost) always worth it to block, try to trade, Journey their guy, Sunlance if you have it. Use Sunlance first if you haven't seen Blight Mamba yet, since you'll want to Journey that.
They have a limited amount of creatures and ALOT of pump. You're hoping to remove the one or two threats they have and for them to not draw any more. Just like vs Mono Green Aggro, they're at an inherent disadvantage because they have to spend their instants to keep their guys alive. Getting your removal blown out by Apostle's Blessing or Vines of Vastwood is pretty bad, but they're still down a whole card that they need to kill you or get through blockers. For this reason I tend to target their threats as aggressively as possible.
Strands is the nuts against them as well as Standard Bearer. Veteran Armorer comes up big, protecting your Bearer from Hornet Sting which they always have They cannot beat these two cards together unless they have double Hornet Sting, which is still great for you because they had to 2-for-1 themselves in a deck that has negative card advantage.
VS Mono Green Aggro
Very similar to Infect except they have less ways to interact with your removal, but their guys are more resilient. You need to kill Skarrgan Pit-Skulk. Other than that your creatures should be better in combat and they will have to use their pump spells just to clear a path. Save removal for Scattershot Archer (post-board). This and Delver are the most "attrition-based" matchups for me. But green is easier to race because they can't counter Strands
Standard Bearer + Veteran Armorer is pretty tough for them but since their creatures are bigger they may not need pump to kill you like infect does.
VS Delver
Probably the deck I've played against the most, and my least favourite to play against. That being said I've been getting better at the matchup and feel pretty confident with it now.
Play around Daze only when it's convenient. For the first 3 turns I'm just jamming whatever I have. Play your lesser spells first to try and bait counters. Sometimes they have all the counters and you just lose. Your best spells are, in order:
Benevolent Bodyguard shines in this matchup because he lets you attack through their guys early by threatening to protect you War Falcon or Skyhunter (they don't want to trade a faerie or two for a 1/1 ground guy. He also counters Echoing Truth which can be massive when they're threatening to bounce your 4 hawks and run you down.
Divine Offering is very important out of the board. It kills Spire Golem at instant speed and gains you 6 life which is sweet. It also destroys Serrated Arrows which is the best card against you, probably in the whole format. Strands is pretty good since it's difficult to counter and sometimes you get to eat their team. I'm not sure if more than 2 is really necessary. But I usually find the games end up in a huge board stall before I'm able to win.
VS Affinity
There are two versions of this deck.
The most popular is the straight aggro version. It's a tough matchup but sometimes they just don't draw the right half of their deck (like regular Affinity) and you get rewarded for your consistency. It's a race but if you can hook up a Bonesplitter with an Attended Knight you're in pretty good shape. Sitting back seems like the wrong way to go though because they can always peel Galvanic Blast, Thoughtcast, or even Rush of Knowledge and just bury you.
Post board Divine Offering is quite good for racing since you can remove a Myr Enforcer and gain 7 life. Strands is not great since their creatures are of many different colours and Sunlance is only ok since it can't kill Auriok Sunchaser or Carapace Forger. Killing Somber Hoverguard is pretty good though. I'm not a huge fan of Dust to Dust since it doesn't deal with many of their threats and you can't ever keep them off metalcraft.
The second type of Affinity is the Atog based combo version. They will try to achieve critical mass and Fling him for the kill. If they have Disciple of the Vault this becomes much easier. If you see Disciple then you can put them on this version. Apply pressure and don't leave yourself dead to a lethal Atog swingback (assume they will have another artifact or two next turn). He must be answered ASAP. Sunlance is soft since they can pump in response, but it can set them back. Strands is your best bet here.
VS Mono Black
They have a lot of relevant removal. If they are more discard-based it might be better to be on the draw, I'm not sure. Someone with more experience could maybe help me out here. Benevolent Bodyguard and Standard Bearer are good here to protect your flyers. The most important thing you can do is get Obsidian Acolyte into play. The second most important thing is to not get blown out by Echoing Decay. I don't see much of this deck but it's been a good matchup for me.
Hopefully some of this is helpful! I'd really appreciate some feedback to improve my list and my play! Thanks for reading.
Ive been playing a lot of pauper online (storm) and the store i go to just started a weekly pauper tournament, and i am thinking about getting WW together for that.
I am wondering what cards are legal in paper pauper but not online(if there are any i should be looking to pick up). If there is a list somewhere of all differences between paper and online pauper that would be really helpful (the only two i know about are sinkhole and hymn to tourach)
COP: Green is good but not what you want in the deck. You end up just tying up your mana more than anything and can't really advance your board position.
The real back breaker for Stompy has traditionally been Standard Bearer and Prismatic Strands. Those are very difficult to beat. Suture Priest is another annoying one as well but not game winning.
I second that cop: green is not particularly useful vs stompy. As a stompy player, I would then try to swarm past it or kill using vault skier or ledge walker. It's certainly annoying, but it is also slow.
Standard bearer is EXTREMELY frustrating to play against. Sometimes I can win through it, but that takes a very creature-heavy hand, you drawing blanks, or a hornet sting.
I'm a little late to this party, but I've been playing Flying Men's WW list card for card and it's a great deck. However, in extensive testing, I think a couple of changes can help the deck out even more. Since his deck uses only Plains, I think a switch from Attended Knight to Razor Golem would be beneficial since the deck has no power-boosting lords (and rightfully so, as boosting toughness is much more important in the face of cards such as Electrickery). The 3/4 vigilant body is more important in races than a 2/2 first strike with a token attached, and if they bring in artifact hate, better for us since the Golems are the only two artifact cards in the deck. Another bonus is that we can Divine Offering the Golems in a pinch to gain some life (though that's admittedly a corner case).
I'll be testing the changes, but otherwise I really like his version of the deck and plan to practice more with it.
Edit #1: Actually, I'm going to take out the Obsidian Acolytes and put the Crimson Acolytes back in. Or try a 2 of Unmake in the 75 somewhere. It would be a good response to the EOT shenanigans that 8-post loves to pull.
I'm a little late to this party, but I've been playing Flying Men's WW list card for card and it's a great deck. However, in extensive testing, I think a couple of changes can help the deck out even more. Since his deck uses only Plains, I think a switch from Attended Knight to Razor Golem would be beneficial since the deck has no power-boosting lords (and rightfully so, as boosting toughness is much more important in the face of cards such as Electrickery). The 3/4 vigilant body is more important in races than a 2/2 first strike with a token attached, and if they bring in artifact hate, better for us since the Golems are the only two artifact cards in the deck. Another bonus is that we can Divine Offering the Golems in a pinch to gain some life (though that's admittedly a corner case).
I'll be testing the changes, but otherwise I really like his version of the deck and plan to practice more with it.
Edit #1: Actually, I'm going to take out the Obsidian Acolytes and put the Crimson Acolytes back in. Or try a 2 of Unmake in the 75 somewhere. It would be a good response to the EOT shenanigans that 8-post loves to pull.
It's hard to say what benefits the deck against all match ups when you start comparing Attended Knight Vs. Razor Golem. Assuming your builds use Veteran Armorer/Hawks, the deck becomes much more aggressive and it might benefit using Guardians' Pledge in the main deck with Attended Knights. The deck is capable of turn 4 kills without any interaction by your opponent (or goldfishing) assuming T1 Hawk, T2 Armor, T3 Knight, T4 Pledge
Where as traditional builds are a tad bit more grinder with Golems, it does have more reach against some match ups. It just comes down to your play style and your approach to the meta. If you prefer an example, here's a list I'm running. The Seraphs are used primarily for catch up after early beats (also gets pretty bonkers with buffs and bodyguards in play). The Deck might need another +1 Pledge to be more consistent.
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It's hard to say what benefits the deck against all match ups when you start comparing Attended Knight Vs. Razor Golem. Assuming your builds use Veteran Armorer/Hawks, the deck becomes much more aggressive and it might benefit using Guardians' Pledge in the main deck with Attended Knights. The deck is capable of turn 4 kills without any interaction by your opponent (or goldfishing) assuming T1 Hawk, T2 Armor, T3 Knight, T4 Pledge
Where as traditional builds are a tad bit more grinder with Golems, it does have more reach against some match ups. It just comes down to your play style and your approach to the meta. If you prefer an example, here's a list I'm running. The Seraphs are used primarily for catch up after early beats (also gets pretty bonkers with buffs and bodyguards in play). The Deck might need another +1 Pledge to be more consistent.
I forgot about Guardians' Pledge, in fact there are lots of cards out there that I don't know about, and I'll give it a shot sometime. If I do go with the Pledges, I'll put the Knights back in because 7 power (plus whatever else) in one turn is pretty sweet. If I'm to run a Seraph or two, I'll have to up the land count by 2 in order to support the 4 drops.
One thing I am doing right now for sure is to put 2 Unmake in the maindeck, replacing one Journey for sure, maybe two. I don't know what else I'd get rid of to put it in, though. Thanks for the decklist, and the Pledges should help in the 8-Post matchup, and they can easily be sided out if you have to play the control role.
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I'm a little late to this party, but I've been playing Flying Men's WW list card for card and it's a great deck. However, in extensive testing, I think a couple of changes can help the deck out even more. Since his deck uses only Plains, I think a switch from Attended Knight to Razor Golem would be beneficial since the deck has no power-boosting lords (and rightfully so, as boosting toughness is much more important in the face of cards such as Electrickery). The 3/4 vigilant body is more important in races than a 2/2 first strike with a token attached, and if they bring in artifact hate, better for us since the Golems are the only two artifact cards in the deck. Another bonus is that we can Divine Offering the Golems in a pinch to gain some life (though that's admittedly a corner case).
I'll be testing the changes, but otherwise I really like his version of the deck and plan to practice more with it.
Edit #1: Actually, I'm going to take out the Obsidian Acolytes and put the Crimson Acolytes back in. Or try a 2 of Unmake in the 75 somewhere. It would be a good response to the EOT shenanigans that 8-post loves to pull.
I'm so happy you're liking my list! I'm on a bit of tear with it right now going 3-1, 4-0, 3-1 in my last three dailies, so it seems to be a good build for now.
Razor Golem vs Attended Knight was something I mulled over for a while. I ended up going with the Knight for the first strike, actually. Bonesplitter makes him a 4/2 that kills pretty much anything in the format (I'm thinking mostly of the various 4/4s affinity runs). But yea it's definitely close. 3/4 just doesn't seem a whole lot different to me than 2/2 first strike. Plus you get a dude, which gives you another Bonesplitter target. That's really where I feel the card advantage lies in this deck. The more bodies you have for splitter the most "must answer" threats you have.
Are you finding any matchups or situations where Razor Golem is better?
I just 3-1ed my daily tonight. I actually went back to Attended Knight for the extra dude, and the first strike really is relevant with a Bonesplitter on it. I'll be honest, I didn't get a big enough sample size with Razor Golem for me to say one way or the other.
I did a 2/2 split on Journey and Unmake, and I'm liking both in different situations. I find that Unmake helps when blue sides in Stormbound Geist. Getting past the undead version is pretty hard, and it's bad enough when you have to 2 for 1 yourself to get rid of it.
I cut both Acolytes out all together. I added one more Divine Offering and put another Unmake in the board (both for that *&%*^% 2/4 flying artifact guy and other annoying things!).
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4 Doomed Traveler
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Loyal Cathar
4 Kor Skyfisher
4 War Falcon
3 Standard Bearer
3 Gideon's Lawkeeper
1 Razor Golem
4 Journey to Nowhere
3 Bonesplitter
2 Prismatic Strands
3 Rest for the Weary
2 Divine Offering
4 Holy Day
2 Holy Light
2 Suture Priest
2 Crimson Acolyte
19 Plains
Based on Anthony Sansone's daily deck.
It's got a random Razor Golem in because I currently don't want to cough up 2 tix for another Standard Bearer right now.
I haven't run dailies with it yet; probably on the weekend. So far in casuals, it's destroying any creature based matchup. Those Holy Day and Rest for the Weary are way better than I thought they would be.
Anthony Sansone has won a few 3-1 + these recent dailies, so it's got something going for it!
I'm really tempted to try 2x Guardians' Pledge given the flexible board presence this deck can have early~midgame.
dd_fan (4-0)
Pauper Daily #4245577 on 08/23/2012
16 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe
Creatures
2 Attended Knight
2 Doomed Traveler
2 Gideon's Lawkeeper
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Kor Skyfisher
3 Leonin Skyhunter
4 Loyal Cathar
4 Squadron Hawk
2 Suture Priest
4 War Falcon
4 Bonesplitter
1 Guardians' Pledge
4 Journey to Nowhere
2 Benevolent Unicorn
2 Crimson Acolyte
1 Dust to Dust
3 Holy Light
2 Kor Sanctifiers
2 Prismatic Strands
2 Standard Bearer
1 Suture Priest
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As far as I can tell the core (i.e cards every version of the deck runs) is:
4x Icatian Javelineers
4x Kor Skyfisher
4x Loyal Cathar
4x Squadron Hawk
From there the deck usually goes in one of two directions:
1) A more aggressive deck based around War Falcon and a much lower curve.
2) A higher curve deck that outclasses other decks with undercosted beaters like Razor Golem and the difficult to remove Guardian of the Guildpact.
I've seen some hybrid versions of these two ideas but those seem worse than the two individual ideas. The main point I wanted to discuss here is which style people think is better. Is it simply a matter of preference or are there actual advantages to each? I started off with a Razor Golem/Guardian version but have since gravitated towards the more aggressive War Falcon versions. The Razor Golem version crushed me in the mirror thanks to Guardian of the Guildpact in one DE I played in and I can certainly see why going "bigger" would be better in the mirror. Guardian is also pretty good against the decks like Cloudpost that are trying to attrition you out as he's pretty tough for them to deal with (and putting a Bonesplitter on him represents a very fast clock). The deck is fairly land light however and even on 21 lands Guardians can still get stuck in your hand at times. Having a higher curve is usually a bad thing as well against a deck like mono-blue Delver that tries to stick early threats and prey on expensive cards with their counter-magic and tempo spells.
Transitioning to something a bit different, what is the best way to play around mono-U Delver's countermagic (Daze and Spellstutter Sprite in particular). At times it doesn't even seem possible to do so. For example when they run out turn 2 Cloud of Faeries on the play and pass with two mana up they're pretty much going to get you with one of those two cards no matter what they play (unless you have a Javelineers in play but you can't always count on that). You could just pass the turn back but that seems like a poor idea as well since then they get to sculpt their hand with their cantrips, set up their Delvers, etc. Should you just accept the 2-for-1 by baiting out the Spellstutter with your worse threat? We can make up the card advantage later with Squadron Hawks but it's still annoying to have your whole turn wasted AND they get to add a body to their side. Ideally you will have two 1 drops so after they counter the first you can still run out the second. As for Daze is it worth playing around at all in the early game? On the draw they're going to get us with it almost no matter what since we'd put ourselves too far behind playing around it but on the play we could in theory play around it if we wanted. Obviously later in the game when I have more mana to work with I make sure not to unnecessarily walk into Daze but early game it's difficult to always avoid it while still mounting an offence.
Is there any situation we should be siding out Squadron Hawks? I've been siding them out in the mono-green stompy matchup lately and have not really missed them at all there. I know they're one of our main sources of card advantage but the 1/1 bodies just aren't very relevant against most of the threats stompy plays (especially when Rancored up). In addition Stompy often boards into Scattershot Archers against us which hoses the Hawks pretty badly
Is mulliganing aggressively for the sideboard hate cards a good strategy against Storm? Game 1 is for the most part a lost cause against them (we pretty much have to hope they fizzle barring a maindeck Strands) but after board we get a lot of good answers against them. My strategy has been to play out a threat the first couple of turns and then leave up 3 mana for Prismatic Strands every turn after that (assuming I don't draw a Unicorn). I know this doesn't put them on quite as fast of a clock and gives them more time to sculpt their hand but getting caught with our pants down when they combo off seems like an easy way to lose and I have certainly been comboed out by them on turn 3. It also forces them to find their Flaring Pain which they often have only one or two copies of in their board it seems.
Is this a good block vs Infect?. In the last DE I played against Infect in round 4 and my opponent (on the play) ran out forest and Glistener Elf turn 1 followed on turn 2 by a second Forest and attacked into my turn 1 Icatian Javelineers. I ended up blocking with the Javelineers based on the fact that any of the following combinations of pump spells would have killed me by letting it through:
-2x Invigorate plus any 3rd pump
-2x Groundswell and Mutagenic Growth
-1x Invigorate, 1x kicked Vines of Vastwood, 1x Mutagenic Growth
-1x Invigorate, 1x Groundswell, 1x Mutagenic Growth
I'd have felt pretty silly losing to any of those though they are all 3 card combos so perhaps my concerns were unwarranted. I did end up winning that game and the match for what it's worth but that doesn't necessarily mean the block was good.
What are the best matchups to bring Holy Light in against? It's obviously a great trump against Empty the Warrens but there's a bunch of other matchups where I've thought "hey this might be good" and then ultimately left it on the side since it didn't seem quite as good as other options. I brought it in against the Infect opponent from before and it hosed him pretty well (killing 3 Blight Mambas when he was tapped out) and it seems really good against them in general as most of their dudes are 1 toughness. It also seems like it could be okay against Goblins but Sledder/Raider makes it a bit worse. One other matchup I thought about it for was mono-blue delver but it only reliably kills their 8 faeries there (and sometimes unflipped Delvers) so it's probably not worth it.
What do people think of Gideon's Lawkeeper/Goldmeadow Harrier in this deck? I've been running him as a 2-of in my list and I've always been happy to draw him. Being able to lockdown your opponent's best creature is really useful and he always seems to overperform. I've been considering adding a 3rd copy. I've also noticed some people run a 2/2 split of Lawkeeper/Harrier. I'm assuming this is primarily to get around the Echoing cards (Decay/Truth) but is there any other reason for this?
What about Attended Knight? I started off with 4 of this guy in my War Falcon list but I've cut them down to 2 and haven't been overly happy with them. He's okay against a deck with small creatures and combos decently with Kor Skyfisher but overall he has been rather underwhelming and I haven't really needed him to turn on my War Falcons as the deck has plenty of other soldiers. I don't know what else to run in his place though. Maindeck Kor Sanctifiers might be an okay replacement, or perhaps Razor Golems (though I run Secluded Steppes so that might not be the best idea). Any suggestions? For reference this is my most recent list: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=150130
One last card I want to discuss is Suture Priest. I honestly don't like this card very much. I know it's a good maindeck answer to Empty the Warrens but at its core it's a 2 mana 1/1. It just doesn't do much in combat without a Bonesplitter and I don't really like the idea of a creature that sits there and can't attack/block or really interact with my opponent's creatures profitably at all. It seems like the majority of lists use this guy though so perhaps I'm underestimating the life swings it can generate?
Feel free to address any of the particular discussion points you guys want. On a semi-related note I'm looking for a Pauper clan to join for testing purposes since I don't really want to spew value on 2-man queues and the quality of competition in the Tournament Practice room is rather....suspect at times. So if anyone has some suggestions let me know.
Squadron Hawk should never be sided out in any matchup really. The card just gives you gas and carries a Bonesplitter as well as any card in the deck. If you're behind it helps you reestablish some board position. If you're ahead it pretty much seals the deal. If you're racing it helps you chump block and save life. In particular against Stompy it does all of the above and you cannot discount it just because of 2 cards, one of which is a SB card some people don't even use. Its the 2nd best T2 play WW can make besides Kor Skyfisher. I wouldn't even side it out vs. storm because it's helping me thin my deck to dig for the silver bullet.
I do not believe War Falcon is the way to take the deck at all. You have so many other 1 drops which give you fantastic value why play a 2/1 that is conditional and dies to anything? You're saying you have issues with Scattershot Archer, yet you're playing War Falcon?
Suture Priest is good against any aggro deck. If you have Priest and they can't get rid of it, its almost impossible for them to win any kind of race. You never attack with Suture Priest unless you're 100% sure. You just let it sit back and do the work for you. I wouldn't play 4x but at least 2 or 3 MD is a good idea. As a Stompy player, Priest is one of the cards I kill ASAP if I have Hornet Sting.
I was unimpressed with Attended Knight when its played against me. Razor Golem is an automatic 4x for WW I think. It attacks well, hard to kill in the format and also plays defense.
Steppe is just bad because you're only playing 21 lands and you're really looking to hit 4 lands.
Yeah we played in round 3 yesterday. I can see your point on the Hawks vs Scattershot Archers but it still really sucks to have one of your cards completely blanked. The ideal case is obviously that they can help you stabilize/buy time to find your removal and good late game creatures but against Stompy it doesn't seem like it plays out that way all to often. Rancor as well as Pit Skulks are hard for Hawks to interact favorably with and often Stompy is attacking with multiple creatures so 1 Hawk is only preventing 2 or 3 damage. Admittedly I haven't played the matchup a ton (3 times in DEs so far and a few times in the practice room) so I could be wrong. Is Benevolent Unicorn a worthwhile SB card against Stompy? I thought about bringing them in since they blank Hornet Sting (and potentially Sandstorm I guess) but couldn't really find stuff I wanted to cut.
I also wouldn't side the Hawks out vs Storm. I side out my spot removal before anything else since they're dead cards in that matchup. I actually played Storm in the first round of that DE and my SB plan was (I believe) -3 Journey, -2 Unmake, -2 Attended Knight for +1 Prismatic Strands, +1 Safe Passage, +3 Holy Light, +2 Benevolent Unicorn. Knights came out for being clunky and since I want to hold my mana open for Strands once I have 3 lands anyways.
I don't really have a problem with Scattershot Archers per-se but having 8 cards that die to him on his own is pretty annoying which is why I would lean towards siding out the Hawks. The thing about War Falcon though is that not only is he great offensively but he's very good as a defensive card too. Against a lot of the other creature decks WW has to assume the role of the control deck and War Falcon can essentially be an Oona's Gatewarden the way those games often play out, trading with any 2 toughness threats and buying you time for your superior end game to take shape. The fact that it's conditional also doesn't come up very frequently since the deck has plenty of soldiers/knights...if you want War Falcon to attack he will be able to a large amount of the time.
I see what you're saying about Suture Priest, I've just found that I don't actually get into racing situations very often against other creature decks. It's usually just me trying to stabilize against them (which to be fair Priest can help do thanks to lifegain) by trading off creatures and using the fact that many of my creatures have built in CA to gain the eventual edge. Thre's the odd time where I'll race with a flyer plus Bonesplitter (or because I have Prismatic Strands) but that seems to be more of a rare case. I'll keep trying it as a 2-of though to get a better idea.
I do like Razor Golem quite a bit as he outclasses pretty well anything in the format.
I think Steppe is okay if you keep your curve low. I didn't like it as a 4-of but as a 3-of it seems to work well and it's very rare that I've had otherwise keepable hands wrecked by a Steppe being there over a Plains. I've found it very good to have in the mirror since it helps ensure I'll have more gas than my opponent. If I were playing Razor Golems and Guardians of the Guildpact I wouldn't play Steppes though.
I agree that the War Falcon build plays out a bit better against the Post decks just by way of giving them less time to stabilize but that's such a poor matchup regardless I wouldn't run it just based on that reason. As I said what I like about him is not only is he very aggressive but he can also be good defensively in a pinch and there's a lot of matchups where we do have to be the defensive deck.
It's nearly unwinnable. C'est la vie.
being inherently more agressive, the war falcon/soldiers version has a slightly better chance. but it's only a slight improvement, it's a really bad matchup for the deck.
Not much you can do, the matchup is extremely unfavorable for WW. Like Psychobabble said the more aggressive versions with War Falcon have a better shot than the slower versions relying on Guardian of the Guildpact and/or Razor Golem, but even then you're still a significant underdog. It gets even worse now that they get to play Electrickery over Seismic Shudder too. Before you could at least feel confident putting a bunch of flyers into play but now all your Hawks and War Falcons get killed by their go-to sweeper as well. For an aggro deck with no reach something like U/R Cloudpost is pretty much the biggest nightmare matchup possible.
i'm afraid that due to the prevalence of post atm, if you want to play aggro you should play green stompy which has an excellent post matchup. Its creatures hit harder, faster and are more resilient (especially to 1-damage pingers, including serrated arrows which pwns WW).
As a stompy player, I can definitely say that Squadron Hawks is one of your worst cards against us. It's just so slow. You already have card advantage against stompy because they are throwing away cards to deal damage. Playing a 1/1 for 2 just to get some card advantage is not where you want to be in this match up, I feel. The fact that the card advantage comprises of other 1/1s for 2 makes it even worse. It can lead to some pretty huge tempo blow-outs, which is exactly the game stompy wants to be playing. Yes, it's good with Bonesplitter, but Bonesplitter is the good card in this interaction, not Squadron Hawks. The fact that you paid two mana for the creature actually matters a lot.
Stabilization cards against stompy are your high-toughness creatures like Kor Skyfisher, Razor Golem, and (to a lesser extent because he's so expensive) Guardian of the Guildpact. You need multiples, because they're just going to pump right through the first one you drop. These guys are the crux of your defense against stompy.
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There's been mention of Suture Priest, and I'd like to add that stompy can easily race Suture Priest; to a lesser extent they can still even race two of them. It's still a fine card because it stalls a little, but the damage to them is negligible. It's still a 1/1 for 2 that you never want to block with, so it's not exactly great. I'd probably still keep it in unless I had a better card against them. I will never waste a Hornet Sting on one though, unless I absolutely had to. Not while Standard Bearer exists...
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There might be some benefit to not bringing Standard Bearer in the match up, at least in tournament-level play. The stompy player knows that they have to side in X cards to avoid an auto-loss, and it slows their deck down. Instead of playing a bunch of 1/1s you never want to block with, you could side into a more defensive-minded deck and blank all their Horner Stings (which used to be pump spells). I'm not sure if this would work or not, but it might be an interesting way to "metagame" your opponent.
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All told, the stompy match-up is very close. I feel like they are the favorite in a fair match, but WW has trump cards that make them cry. I think this pushes WW to a slight favorite in the match up, but WW could easily not draw the trump cards, or stompy could negate them, or stompy could just get off to a quick start. I'd place WW a slight favorite to win in 3, but stompy is a pretty big favorite to win game 1.
fwiw, that's my experience. Game 1 stompy is favoured, but in a best of 3 ww has the edge. Unless ww gets the complete blowout combo of standard bearer + benevolent unicorn setup though, it'll generally be close.
This is what I have come up with:
White Weenie Soldiers
4x Secluded Steppe
16x Plains
4x Icatian Javelineers
4x Veteran Armorsmith
4x Veteran Swordsmith
4x Veteran Armorer
4x Kor Skyfisher
4x Loyal Cathar
4x Doomed Traveler
2x Ballynock Cohort
2x Journey to Nowhere
2x Bonesplitter
4x Dust to Dust
3x Mana Tithe
2x Crimson Acolyte
2x Journey to Nowhere
I'm avoiding creatures that die easily to 1 damage spells. The only ones that do are the Javelineers--but they are needed. And all of the armorers tend to get the toughness out of danger range pretty quickly.
In any event, I'm new to pauper and this deck is probably going in entirely the wrong direction. But part of the fun with Pauper is you can brew--new decks cost very little! I've been mostly playing in the TP, but I know good decks and players when I face them and am doing my best to only factor in results from those matches in my observations.
Land Count
I'm not sure if I have it right yet--but I have noticed that I can recover from slight mana screw, but that flood always kills me. So my current land count is keeping that in mind.
Match-Ups
UR Post:
I am actually in the game. In fact, I have been winning more than I lose--but that may just be luck and sample size. That being said, I feel that I have made this match-up at least winnable. The resilient creatures and all the toughness pumps really help to avoid their sweepers
Blue Delver
I think my list is a little weaker in this MU than traditional ones--but I still win my fair share. I'd appreciate any advice for improving this one including some sideboard slots. Currently I'm testing mana tithe and it is at least promising so far--but it is too soon to tell.
Affinity
This is a tough one if they come out fast in the first game. Post board it is better. But I could probably use some help here. What do most people side vs. Affinity aside from more journeys and the Dust to Dusts?
Storm
I seem to be winning more than I lose. But that could be a function of the TP as I feel storm is a special case--many players have good decks, but it is hard to know if they are good at playing them. 4 maindeck strands helps a lot vs. grapeshot (and to some degree ETW). But perhaps I need more SB hate before I hit the DEs. How good are unicorns?
Green Stompy
I have been doing very well here. The fact that they can't kill my 'lords' and I have 4 MD strands seems to make me do better than your average WW.
In any event, I'm sure this has all been done before--but I'm still enjoying it. I thought I'd share. If anyone has any suggestions I'd love to hear them.
EDIT: well mono-blue post is definitely a problem as my toughness pumps do little against them--and mono-blue seems to be gaining in popularity over Izzet. But I'm working on that matchup and would appreciate any suggestions for cards against them.
Also, the Azorius Arrester has turned out to be a fantastic soldier and I am now maining 4 of them.
When I board against WW I'm not likely to take out many pump spells. I'm more likely to maximize damage as much as possible, which means I would bring in creature control Hornet Sting, enchantment/artifact removal (because Journey/Oblivion Ring can wreck havoc on Stompy) I don't think I would board out many pump spells. I'm more likely to board Q Ranger for archer, a nettle settle and my weakest pump spell (which is Gather Courage) for hornet sting and gleeful sabotage.
Not only does Hornet Sting take care of Standard Bearer, Gleeful Sabotage eliminates Razor Golem but also all of the Journey/Oblivion effects.
But I use Gather Courage as a "burn spell" in Stompy it is almost always used as a block trick.''
EDIT: to the deck above I think I lay waste to a version of this deck with Vault Skirge and Rancor and then a few well placed Vines.
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4 Bonesplitter
3 Benevolent Bodyguard
4 War Falcon
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Journey to Nowhere
4 Kor Skyfisher
4 Leonin Skyhunter
3 Loyal Cathar
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Veteran Armorer
2 Attended Knight
4 Benevolent Unicorn
2 Crimson Acolyte
2 Divine Offering
2 Sunlance
2 Obsidian Acolyte
1 Prismatic Strands
2 Standard Bearer
Here are my current opinions on some cards and matchups:
Guardian of the Guildpact
I just cut him to lower my curve. I want to play 18 lands right now. Flooding is just the absolute worst thing that can happen to you with this deck. I haven't found him to be relevant in any matchups really. I feel like he should shine against control, but he's a great target for countermagic, and Serrated Arrows. By the time he's down they might already have an Ulamog's Crusher anyway. He does nothing against Affinity and he's a liability vs any combo deck because he's never coming down in time to matter.
Suture Priest
I used to be a big fan of this card but I'm not sure it's where we really want to be right now. Mono Green usually kills you in one or two shots and Prismatic Strands is really what you want against them anyway. Infect ignores life. Affinity ignores everything. It's been ok vs Delver but I prefer something that can pressure them. I haven't run into Goblins in ages, which is where this would really shine but the matchup is already favourable.
Veteran Armorer
I upped him to 4 in an effort to fight Electrickery but maybe I just need to forget about the post matchup. He's great against Delver since none of their flyers can trade with yours and Skyfisher becomes a huge problem for them. He also stops Scattershot Archer, turns on War Falcon, and generally helps your combat math. Pairing him with Standard Bearer creates a nearly unwinnable board state for Mono Green and Infect.
VS Post
I moved to the "all flying" version early on to beat post and it worked pretty well. They couldn't really block anything so an early Bonesplitter on anything followed by more threats to use up their removal was a good position to be in. Now they have Electrickery and I'm stumped. Veteran Armorer helps but they can bolt him and then wrath. I've brought Loyal Cathar back for this MU so we'll see if he helps.
VS Storm
This is another matchup where I like to have a low curve. I feel like I'm 50/50 against them. If I can put them under some serious pressure game 1 I've found they will be forced to go off and Grapeshot my team instead of me, just to survive. They can rarely climb back into it with no board and no hand, provided I don't flood out.
For those of you asking about Benevolent Unicorn. It is the real deal. I routinely get concessions to a turn 2 Unicorn.
Here are a couple of nice pieces of tech I've learned:
1. If you have Squadron Hawk and Prismatic Strands, you can search up the full 3 hawks and discard Strands on your end step, giving you turn 2 protection.
2. I haven't tried this yet, but on the draw G1 if I see a sac land and I have a one drop and Strands in hand, skip my land drop to discard Strands and then play my one drop on turn two. I'm not sure if this is a good idea since it really hinders the amount of pressure I can put them under, but it guarantees I'm protected from them going off on 3 or me missing my 3rd land drop.
VS Infect
If you see a Forest into a Gitaxian Probe, it's infect.
You're the control deck here since they can kill on turn 2 or 3. It is (almost) always worth it to block, try to trade, Journey their guy, Sunlance if you have it. Use Sunlance first if you haven't seen Blight Mamba yet, since you'll want to Journey that.
They have a limited amount of creatures and ALOT of pump. You're hoping to remove the one or two threats they have and for them to not draw any more. Just like vs Mono Green Aggro, they're at an inherent disadvantage because they have to spend their instants to keep their guys alive. Getting your removal blown out by Apostle's Blessing or Vines of Vastwood is pretty bad, but they're still down a whole card that they need to kill you or get through blockers. For this reason I tend to target their threats as aggressively as possible.
Strands is the nuts against them as well as Standard Bearer. Veteran Armorer comes up big, protecting your Bearer from Hornet Sting which they always have They cannot beat these two cards together unless they have double Hornet Sting, which is still great for you because they had to 2-for-1 themselves in a deck that has negative card advantage.
VS Mono Green Aggro
Very similar to Infect except they have less ways to interact with your removal, but their guys are more resilient. You need to kill Skarrgan Pit-Skulk. Other than that your creatures should be better in combat and they will have to use their pump spells just to clear a path. Save removal for Scattershot Archer (post-board). This and Delver are the most "attrition-based" matchups for me. But green is easier to race because they can't counter Strands
Standard Bearer + Veteran Armorer is pretty tough for them but since their creatures are bigger they may not need pump to kill you like infect does.
VS Delver
Probably the deck I've played against the most, and my least favourite to play against. That being said I've been getting better at the matchup and feel pretty confident with it now.
Play around Daze only when it's convenient. For the first 3 turns I'm just jamming whatever I have. Play your lesser spells first to try and bait counters. Sometimes they have all the counters and you just lose. Your best spells are, in order:
1. Squadron Hawk
2. Bonesplitter
3. Kor Skyfisher
4. Icatian Javelineers
Benevolent Bodyguard shines in this matchup because he lets you attack through their guys early by threatening to protect you War Falcon or Skyhunter (they don't want to trade a faerie or two for a 1/1 ground guy. He also counters Echoing Truth which can be massive when they're threatening to bounce your 4 hawks and run you down.
Save your removal for Spire Golem. Without Veteran Armorer + Kor Skyfisher + Bonesplitter this guy is a huge problem.
Divine Offering is very important out of the board. It kills Spire Golem at instant speed and gains you 6 life which is sweet. It also destroys Serrated Arrows which is the best card against you, probably in the whole format. Strands is pretty good since it's difficult to counter and sometimes you get to eat their team. I'm not sure if more than 2 is really necessary. But I usually find the games end up in a huge board stall before I'm able to win.
VS Affinity
There are two versions of this deck.
The most popular is the straight aggro version. It's a tough matchup but sometimes they just don't draw the right half of their deck (like regular Affinity) and you get rewarded for your consistency. It's a race but if you can hook up a Bonesplitter with an Attended Knight you're in pretty good shape. Sitting back seems like the wrong way to go though because they can always peel Galvanic Blast, Thoughtcast, or even Rush of Knowledge and just bury you.
Post board Divine Offering is quite good for racing since you can remove a Myr Enforcer and gain 7 life. Strands is not great since their creatures are of many different colours and Sunlance is only ok since it can't kill Auriok Sunchaser or Carapace Forger. Killing Somber Hoverguard is pretty good though. I'm not a huge fan of Dust to Dust since it doesn't deal with many of their threats and you can't ever keep them off metalcraft.
The second type of Affinity is the Atog based combo version. They will try to achieve critical mass and Fling him for the kill. If they have Disciple of the Vault this becomes much easier. If you see Disciple then you can put them on this version. Apply pressure and don't leave yourself dead to a lethal Atog swingback (assume they will have another artifact or two next turn). He must be answered ASAP. Sunlance is soft since they can pump in response, but it can set them back. Strands is your best bet here.
VS Mono Black
They have a lot of relevant removal. If they are more discard-based it might be better to be on the draw, I'm not sure. Someone with more experience could maybe help me out here. Benevolent Bodyguard and Standard Bearer are good here to protect your flyers. The most important thing you can do is get Obsidian Acolyte into play. The second most important thing is to not get blown out by Echoing Decay. I don't see much of this deck but it's been a good matchup for me.
Hopefully some of this is helpful! I'd really appreciate some feedback to improve my list and my play! Thanks for reading.
Pauper:
WW White Weenie WW
Is Circle of Protection: Green useful against green stompy or too slow? I'm considering removing Crimson Acolyte for that.
I am wondering what cards are legal in paper pauper but not online(if there are any i should be looking to pick up). If there is a list somewhere of all differences between paper and online pauper that would be really helpful (the only two i know about are sinkhole and hymn to tourach)
thanks
http://forums.pdcmagic.com/viewtopic.php?t=3449
It's a list used to distinguish what's counted as a common or uncommon for the peasant format, but it works for what you need.
The real back breaker for Stompy has traditionally been Standard Bearer and Prismatic Strands. Those are very difficult to beat. Suture Priest is another annoying one as well but not game winning.
Standard bearer is EXTREMELY frustrating to play against. Sometimes I can win through it, but that takes a very creature-heavy hand, you drawing blanks, or a hornet sting.
My other idea is to replace Crimson Acolyte with Holy Light. I find that even if I land a turn 2 Benevolent Unicorn against Storm, an Empty the Warrens spells doom for me, especially if paired with a Goblin Bushwhacker.
I'll be testing the changes, but otherwise I really like his version of the deck and plan to practice more with it.
Edit #1: Actually, I'm going to take out the Obsidian Acolytes and put the Crimson Acolytes back in. Or try a 2 of Unmake in the 75 somewhere. It would be a good response to the EOT shenanigans that 8-post loves to pull.
It's hard to say what benefits the deck against all match ups when you start comparing Attended Knight Vs. Razor Golem. Assuming your builds use Veteran Armorer/Hawks, the deck becomes much more aggressive and it might benefit using Guardians' Pledge in the main deck with Attended Knights. The deck is capable of turn 4 kills without any interaction by your opponent (or goldfishing) assuming T1 Hawk, T2 Armor, T3 Knight, T4 Pledge
Where as traditional builds are a tad bit more grinder with Golems, it does have more reach against some match ups. It just comes down to your play style and your approach to the meta. If you prefer an example, here's a list I'm running. The Seraphs are used primarily for catch up after early beats (also gets pretty bonkers with buffs and bodyguards in play). The Deck might need another +1 Pledge to be more consistent.
3 Attended Knight
2 Benevolent Bodyguard
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Kor Skyfisher
3 Loyal Cathar
2 Seraph of Dawn
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Veteran Armorer
4 War Falcon
2 Guardians' Pledge
3 Journey to Nowhere
1 Unmake
17 Plains
3 Secluded Steppe
3 Benevolent Unicorn
2 Crimson Acolyte
2 Divine Offering
1 Dust to Dust
2 Holy Light
2 Prismatic Strands
3 Standard Bearer
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I forgot about Guardians' Pledge, in fact there are lots of cards out there that I don't know about, and I'll give it a shot sometime. If I do go with the Pledges, I'll put the Knights back in because 7 power (plus whatever else) in one turn is pretty sweet. If I'm to run a Seraph or two, I'll have to up the land count by 2 in order to support the 4 drops.
One thing I am doing right now for sure is to put 2 Unmake in the maindeck, replacing one Journey for sure, maybe two. I don't know what else I'd get rid of to put it in, though. Thanks for the decklist, and the Pledges should help in the 8-Post matchup, and they can easily be sided out if you have to play the control role.
On a personal note, I really enjoy your artwork, especially the Jace/Chandra as parents piece. Little Niv-Mizzet was a nice touch. Sorry that WOTC is giving you a hard time about your hobby.
I'm so happy you're liking my list! I'm on a bit of tear with it right now going 3-1, 4-0, 3-1 in my last three dailies, so it seems to be a good build for now.
Razor Golem vs Attended Knight was something I mulled over for a while. I ended up going with the Knight for the first strike, actually. Bonesplitter makes him a 4/2 that kills pretty much anything in the format (I'm thinking mostly of the various 4/4s affinity runs). But yea it's definitely close. 3/4 just doesn't seem a whole lot different to me than 2/2 first strike. Plus you get a dude, which gives you another Bonesplitter target. That's really where I feel the card advantage lies in this deck. The more bodies you have for splitter the most "must answer" threats you have.
Are you finding any matchups or situations where Razor Golem is better?
I ended up cutting Crimson Acolyte from the board. He just doesn't auto-win like Obsidian does. I replaced my 2 Crimsons with 1 more Standard Bearer and 1 more Divine Offering.
Pauper:
WW White Weenie WW
I did a 2/2 split on Journey and Unmake, and I'm liking both in different situations. I find that Unmake helps when blue sides in Stormbound Geist. Getting past the undead version is pretty hard, and it's bad enough when you have to 2 for 1 yourself to get rid of it.
I cut both Acolytes out all together. I added one more Divine Offering and put another Unmake in the board (both for that *&%*^% 2/4 flying artifact guy and other annoying things!).