Mulldrifter is really awkward in permission decks. All you have to do is play with the card for a few games to quickly get that feeling.
Is there really any reason to play less than 4 Exclude right now?
Thank god someone agrees. I cut them last night for a couple of Spire Golems and some extra draw and it feels a million times better.
I also went up to 3 Exclude, but now that you mention it I suppose there isn't really much reason not to go to 4; every deck has creatures you want to counter. I'll try it out and see if it feels like too many.
Also, I was testing out a couple of possible ouside-the-box cards for a few matchups:
Curse of the Pierced Heart: After twice facing a UB control deck that mills as its primary win-con (they had so much removal I decked myself before I could kill them, even with Grim Harvest) I wanted to try out something they couldn't interact with, that wasn't Sprout Swarm (sometimes it gets milled, Duressed, or you lose the counterwar). The theory is if you can stick more than one, you'll easily win before you deck yourself, and it's only a two mana threat so you can more easily fight the counterwar. You could conceivably maindeck them, as literally no deck can interact with them G1, and almost no-one G2 either. I don't think it's worth the 4 sideboard slots at this stage, and I'm not sure if they work in smaller numbers (having just one is pitifully slow) but it's something to keep in mind.
I saw Razorfin Hunter in the UR control thread, and it seems really sweet against Delver, WW and other decks that run a lot of X/1s, including those Elves lists I've seen running around occasionally. Hopefully they'll have boarded out what little removal they have, and this guy can just go to town. I haven't had the chance to test him out as of yet, but on paper it seems effective.
The Mnemonic Walls are mainly there in case Sprout Swarm gets Duressed or something. I went up to 4 Prohibits as my main gripe with them was that they couldn't counter MBC's 3 drop creatures, but with 4 Excludes this should be less of a problem. I may cut one or two for some Condescends or something though, depending on how they play.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Mulldrifter is really awkward in permission decks. All you have to do is play with the card for a few games to quickly get that feeling.
Is there really any reason to play less than 4 Exclude right now?
You're right it is. That might be why MUC doesn't play it. This is not a permission deck as it has board control and permission.
I don't think 4 exclude is the right number, but definitely some number of them. They're just too slow against dedicated aggro decks to have more than 2-3.
Thank god someone agrees. I cut them last night for a couple of Spire Golems and some extra draw and it feels a million times better.
My point exactly with my reply to INS. your list is turning into MUC with a bunch of splashed colors. Pyroblast might be worth looking into as your answer to mill win cons like Curse of the bloody tome which admittedly are pretty hard to deal with post board. maybe over dispel.
Think Twice seems lackluster in comparison to Accumulated Knowledge for this deck since it's tutorable, and the investment to card ratio is higher on AK past the first one. I have been liking it personally.
EDIT:
After a couple hours of testing this evening here's where i'm at. I changed Memory Lapse and Negate in the toolbox to Exclude and Rewind. I've upped Electrickery to 2 since the deck was having problem with Hexproof, and this just destroys them. I've been surprised by the power of Crypt incursion; it single-handedly won me a game i had no right winning at the time, so it's here to stay in the toolbox as well. I also added a Bojuka Bog and 2 Izzet Boilerworks to the manabase and they have been very good. The creature suite seems strong, and i've had no problem with it so far.
Something I recommend testing is Saruli Gatekeepers. All you really have to do is play a bunch of dual lands and they're a live 4-drop that gains you a copious amount of life. I maindeck a full set of them...and most people know how much I hate tapping out, so that's saying something. It's nice to have a card you can draw on a mull to 4 that just ends the game against burn decks, too.
Something I recommend testing is Saruli Gatekeepers. All you really have to do is play a bunch of dual lands and they're a live 4-drop that gains you a copious amount of life. I maindeck a full set of them...and most people know how much I hate tapping out, so that's saying something. It's nice to have a card you can draw on a mull to 4 that just ends the game against burn decks, too.
ah nice I was kind of looking for a 4 drop to get on turn 3 in a BUG version i'm working on that uses Wall of Roots. This seems perfect.
Well you're not going to play 2 taplands and a Wall of Roots and a turn 3 4-drop that needs 2 taplands on the table by that point.
This is true, good catch. I didn't think that one through. Lifegain in the current BUG version I have would definitely be helpful on that body since i'm trying to use Evincar's Justice which just feels horrible when you're trying to stabilize on low life with the draws where you don't get the early Wall of Roots.
aside from that I've updated my sideboard to the following:
I found Gorilla shaman was just to narrow (while awesome when you armageddon Affinity) as mentioned by a friend of mine, and no real reason to play less than 4 pyroblast in the 75. Edict came up to a 2-of since hexproof is a natural problem for the deck, but is "winnable" game 1.
I do want to mention I was going to try a singleton Spellstutter Sprite in the slot that Dispel fills, but decided it was too loose after talking with a friend about it. I might test a few games with it, but for now it's dispel. My thought was maybe Mental Misstep for 2 mana is ok on a 1/1 flying body. Could be totally off base though.
Jadencamelot; You were right with your assessment of the tron matchup. I'm having less troubles with it since changing of those 2 counterspells in my toolbox, and just bringing in more removal/permission post board.
I plan on giving the deck a shot in some 2-man's some time soon since I'm low on tix to get into an 8-man.
Spellstutter Sprite is a really good sideboard card in this format. It trades 2-for-1 with almost everything on the stack and most of the threats in play against Stompy, it's really good against Goblins for similar reasons (so long as you play around Bolt), it's pretty good against Tron, it's really live against most builds of Delver (trades with something on the stack; also trades with any of their faeries). It's good against Burn because it counters 2/3 of that deck, including Pyroblasts post-board, and it can chump a Marauders or start applying pressure (which isn't that relevant, but when you play the second Stutter or some random 2/X clock, additional pressure=less burn spells topdecked on the other side of the table). It's bad against Mono Black (doesn't hit enough things on the stack) and Affinity (hits a few things on the stack, but then the 1/1 body is nearly irrelevant against that deck). And against a lot of controlish decks, having a random threat that counters Hydroblast, Pyroblast, Duress, Dispel, and random Preordains is not a bad thing (just make sure that's the landscape before you bring it in for something else).
Think of it as a narrow counterspell that trades with something in combat, making it like a removal spell too.
I've been rather busy lately and haven't had much time to test, but I have been experimenting with a list revolving around Curse of the Bloody Tome after reading an article describing a straight UB control list in pauper, except I'm running it in a Teachings shell. I tried putting it in a back-to-basics, plain UB list.
The 4 Deprive is an experiment. The original article suggested running 4, as it was based on an MUC shell and ran 21 lands with 8 one-mana cantrips. I want to see how much tempo loss they actually cause when played on turn 2-4; I suspect they're not as bad as they seem on paper, and very early testing supports this. I'm likely to end up dropping to 3 or 2 and adding some Prohibits, but they're staying at 4 for the moment until I prove that it's too many. They are, after all, an unconditional hard counter for 2.
The sideboard is in flux so I haven't put it here, but I'm playing 3-4 Spire Golems, another suggestion from the article. My reasoning is that aside from the decks against which they're simply a wall, any removal most opponents are running would be cut upon seeing me win with Curses maindeck, thus making them a very viable alternate win condition if Curse is too slow. They're testing very well.
I'm also working on a version that merges this with the more traditional lists.
Hi! i submitted a post onto casual forum ad i've been redirected here, so i would ask you some question and explanation; understant that i'm new to the format thus not everthing it's clear to me.
Then reading the board i noticed some "main streams" of the deck that i dont fully understand:
Counterspell: UU into a 3colored deck where fetches and doubles EbT.
No cheap library manipulation (Ponder, Preodain, Brainstorm)
+G version for Sprout Swarm board advantage: isn't too slow?
5-6 Creature slots: finishers vary a lot form deck to deck. which are the best ones (and what kind of gameplay/deck suits them best)?
then there are some intersting "topics" like:
Curse of the Pierced Heart wincon.. it's really viable'?
all flash / Instant plays with Spire Monitor / Faerie Invaders / Havenwood Wurm, avail the increased mana cost of those cards??
Can you help me to summarize?
The base idea is that deacreasing average cc (2,21 counting the flashback/Recover costs) i could play less lands (22 instead of 24) and increase counters' density/threats' density, while ensuring landrops with 8 cantrips. CA engine is based on think twice and 1 ophidian eye for continuous advantage (playin it directly on combat phase wisely has a good probability of drawing a card, not being card disadvantage if the creature is killed most of the times. unansered for 2-3 turns equal a huge advantage. Delvers are best non-ca (mulldrifter) creature with insane cc-p/c ration (yhea you already know this), so why cast a cc5 3/3 when i can have it for 1mana? the tap-out issue isn't here anymore thx to the cc1 and evasion and power are the almost same, thx to an almost certain flip with 33 flip cards + 8 cantrips effects. An excellent idea i brought from the topic is the obZen snow-coverd/Skred removal strategy that i felt excellent. Another card that i brought form the MTGO topic it's Crypt Incursion, excelent mid-lategame to breath extra air ;). however with this ultra light configuration i still feel the need for a game-ender to seal the game.. any suggestion or comment for the list?!
I'll try to keep this very direct and somewhat brief:
Counterspell is infinitely better than Mana Leak or any other conditional counter in the lategame. If you're playing a purist draw-go control deck that's angling to control the game until super late, you don't want cards that are dead by the time you get there. Prohibit is a far, far better alternative, although cards like Deprive, Miscalculation and Condescend work too, as they either still function very late or are able to at least cycle.
Counterspell is very easily castable if you build the manabase correctly and play with the UU restriction in mind. I will almost always fetch for an Island on a turn 1 Terramorphic, unless I either desperately need Red/Black to cast a removal spell, or lack any other fetchlands and need to play it turn 1 because of my hand (eg. to maintain T2 Prohibit, T3 Exclude). You will rarely need more than one of each off-colour basic land in play, so when they rest of your lands are Islands you will have no trouble casting it.
Some lists do run Brainstorm or Preordain, but you have to keep in mind that they do not provide card advantage. If you're trying to trade one-for-one with your opponent for the entire game and outlast them over 20 turns, you want draw spells that actually gain you CA. They're not bad, but make sure you run them alongside some spells that draw you cards. I've found in my testing they're unnecessary though — I'd rather draw multiple cards than simply see them.
Sprout Swarm isn't for "board advantage", it's a win-condition that is completely impervious to removal, tutorable with Teachings and totally inevitable against anything not running counterspells. Once the game is locked up winning is just a formality, so you might as well have a tutorable singleton that's almost impossible to interact with, especially at such a minor cost to the manabase (a single Forest and 8 Fetches instead of Gates).
Curse of the Pierced Heart was an experiment. I then found Curse of the Bloody Tome, which is a faster clock, more inevitable, easier to cast, and usually only requires one copy in play. It's just another option for a win condition that's very hard to interact with.
The reason for playing Flash creatures is that they're tutorable with Teachings.
While you do present an interesting argument for Delvers, I think either Errant Ephemeron or Spire Golem is simply better for what you're trying to accomplish. The Ephemeron is a faster clock and is more resilient (4 toughness) and consistent (doesn't need to flip) and the golem has excellent duality as a blocker against aggro, as well as tending to stonewall opposing Delver decks.
Cut the Mana Leaks, they are terrible in a deck that aims to go extremely late. Counterspell is so much better, and a correctly built manabase should be able to handle it.
Your list looks very vulnerable to spot removal. Delvers are extremely easy to kill when they're the only creature in your deck and you're not running any hard counters. I understand Grim Harvest recurs them, but Delver seems extremely out of place when you consider its main advantage is being extremely aggressive and able to attack for 3 as early as turn 2. They do work, but I'm not a fan.
Also, your manabase is terrible. You're trying to run a 3-colour deck with zero fixing whatsoever. At the very least, play 6-8 fetchlands. You don't need more than 2-3 copies of your off-colour lands as you rarely need more than one in play (especially if you decide to run Spire Golem and/or Counterspell).
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
So I've become very unhappy with the manabase of grixis even with 8 gates and 4 panoramas. So I've moved on to straight UB. Here's what I'm playing with right now.
So I've become very unhappy with the manabase of grixis even with 8 gates and 4 panoramas. So I've moved on to straight UB. Here's what I'm playing with right now.
Really? I've never had a problem with mine when playing 8 Terramorphics. I can only surmise that it's because you need to draw a specific one of the two types of guildgates to find the colour you need, whereas any Terramorphic will fetch you any missing colour. Maybe try that setup before you abandon Grixis altogether?
Ins I might have to deem your question of why not play 4 exclude a very good one. I'm trying it out as you can see.
I quite like your list, I'm going to have to try it out when I get the time.
One minor thing, is there a reason for the singleton Prohibit? I was thinking Deprive or Faerie Trickery might be more useful in that slot (Deprive can bounce a Bojuka Bog for reuse against graveyard decks) unless you wanted it for the single blue cost.
EDIT: Actually I only just noticed that you've dropped to two Teachings. Can you explain your reasoning?
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I've been happy with the 2/2 split of Deprive and Prohibit. I occasionally have problems with countering 3-drops on the draw, but this is equally made up for by not bouncing a land and being castable for a single U (I can fetch a mountain on turn 1, still hold a counter up on 2, and then kill something on turn 3).
I've tried switching things up by moving to a Brainstorm/AK draw suite. While Alchemy does synergise with AK, I felt that it was sometimes a liability because you have no way to recur a lost singleton bullet that you couldn't select. Brainstorm, however, is a great way to solve both mana screw and flood, and works very well with 12 shuffle effects in the deck. It's cheap, too, which is always a boon. Similarly, AK does an impression of Think Twice, but effectively replaces Mysteries of the Deep (my teachings target when I need to just draw some damn cards), which frees up a slot for a 4th Teachings - something both necessary and allowable by the sudden lack of mana sinks (no Alchemy/Think Twice flashback). Plus, you can now easily tutor for 3 or 4 AKs because of the longer Teachings chain.
The third Curse is in the main now, because I found I was boarding in either it or the Spire Golems every game. With Brainstorm I can shuffle it away if I find it too early. Also, some decks run outs in the main (Kor Sanctifiers, etc) and so I want to make sure I can actually win. The Magma Spray is in there for annoying cards like Young Wolf. I ended up running both Terminate and Doom Blade (at the cost of a second Staggershock) because I've been in situations where only one will suit (regen, pro-red, no red source, etc) and would like outs to both.
I caved and bought some Pyroblasts because I got fed up with losing to Delver game 2 and 3 when they bring in all their extra countermagic. Postboard, I have a crap ton of cards against them now (Spire Golem, Electrickery, 'blast), although all three serve dual purposes versus other decks. The Spire Monitor is just a fourth Spire Golem, because I found that sometimes Golem would die to the same hate they bring in for Curse (Disenchant effects) and I wanted one that was impervious to that hate. Plus, it's tutorable.
I'm thinking of going up to 25 land, and possibly also working in a Traumatic Visions (I like having the flexibility to Teachings for a land, and it effectively brings the count to 26 while having utility lategame). I'm finding many of the games I lose are because of not drawing enough lands, and now with Accumulated Knowledge it makes it harder to hit land drops than with Think Twice (you need multiple copies to see as many cards, which is usually via a Teachings chain).
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I might play some serious pauper again, soon. I've been playing a little on MTGO here or there, over the past week. I'm kind of in the process of saving up a couple hundred bucks to build a Modern deck, but I'm mainly just trying to have something tried and tested by the time the PTQ season starts in the summer...so that's quite a ways away. In the interim, I think I'll get back into Pauper a little bit. I don't have the time to grind events; I can play maybe a couple 8-mans after work in the week, but mostly just Saturday or Sunday when I'm free on the weekend.
All that being said, I feel like taking a bit of a fresh start to the format. I want to play control, but I'm pretty open-minded. I was thinking about trying to find a way to up the power level to a permission shell (Teachings or otherwise; I'd want to play Teachings by default). I feel like it's a pain in the neck to deal with some of the 1-drop aggression decks, as well as dealing with the mass card advantage and high amount of variety that Affinity has...so I want to try to bring a more powerful engine to the table when I play.
I was testing for a while with Sprouting Vines as a way to draw a lot of cards early--that was pretty good with Rewind, Oona's Grace, and Teachings, and it was really really good with Brainstorm. I also like Saruli Gatekeepers, since it just completely shafts burn decks and a number of other aggro strategies by itself. What do you guys think about going in a UGx(y) direction with some of these kinds of cards, powering up the deck a little bit? I'm talking about keeping to a permission focus, but having some bomb-ish cards in this cut-throat format.
I've actually mostly jumped ship to the Domain Zoo deck, but I still bring out my Teachings list every now and again. To be honest I find that the deck rarely has trouble drawing cards; it's more a "wrong answers for the wrong threats" problem, and a lack of board presence. The Gatekeepers is definitely an idea that answers both. I might start brewing up a list tonight.
Also just throwing the idea out there: we could use Abundant Growth (plus Gates) to power up a pretty consistent 3 or 4 colour list, perhaps with red as a tertiary colour and only a minor splash of black?
EDIT: Flicker/Wall seems good with Gatekeepers. Or even just Flicker; 14 free life is hard to beat for any aggro deck.
Any other reasons to be in green? Really wish Wall of Blossoms were common.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I've been looking at Jason Moore's list on Blackborder. He uses an interesting card: Pristine Talisman. He posts a lot of videos of him with the deck, and the card does wonders. I also am a big fan of Evincar's Justice. Crypt Incursion is deceptively good as well. I'm quite shocked that more people aren't using Oona's Grace. That card is amazing.
Hey everyone. I wanted to share that I'm still working diligently on the Teachings archetype, and have been doing well at the Pauper Classic Tuesday PRE's with my recent lists. The article linked below has a blurb about the deck, and the most recent list which showcases everyone's legacy staple: Brainstorm. Enjoy!
obZen - I like the list, and congrats on your finishes in the PREs. I've been watching the results on Gatherling, it had seemed like you were on the verge of breaking through for awhile, I'm glad you're getting there.
Can you talk about the singleton Impulse and what brought you to it as opposed to the fourth Teachings? I've debated playing that card for awhile, but I've held off because I play the BUg variant with Sprout Swarm and Havenwood Wurm and can tutor up my win cons on demand. Is it to help you find your creatures?
Also, if you don't mind, talk about the Brindle Boar splash from the SB.
Well I finally did it, gents. I won the PRE today a straight 7-0. I'm so worn out now, but so pumped I need to get to sleep. Ledger did watching me answer all of your questions?
Well I finally did it, gents. I won the PRE today a straight 7-0. I'm so worn out now, but so pumped I need to get to sleep. Ledger did watching me answer all of your questions?
Indeed, I'm reformatting my deck right now to try your version. Well-played tonight.
EDIT: Quick question, though. You seemed to struggle on land drops at times, do you think you're too light at 22?
Well I finally did it, gents. I won the PRE today a straight 7-0. I'm so worn out now, but so pumped I need to get to sleep. Ledger did watching me answer all of your questions?
Indeed, I'm reformatting my deck right now to try your version. Well-played tonight.
EDIT: Quick question, though. You seemed to struggle on land drops at times, do you think you're too light at 22?
Thank you! I don't think 22 lands is "too light" as much as I would say it has it's pros and cons. I mostly moved to lower land count due to brainstorms, but also because the deck operates fairly well one 1-2 mana, and can handle getting stuck on a land drop for a couple turns usually. Plus, Twisted Abomination is often a land early so in theory you have 23 lands, and with 4 brainstorm you up that to about 25.
The biggest hurdle you will have to overcome when playing the deck is getting comfortable with the hands, because your biggest fear is going to be the hand that has: fetch, BS, and 5 other spells in the 2 and 3 cmc range. on the draw I say sure you can probably keep it if the interactions are there if you make your second drop, but DO NOT keep on the play. These hands are high risk high reward, and is worth the risk usually if you're an extra card deep.
As an aside the only thing I changed from last week's list was going down to 6 fetches from 8, and adding 2 island. I'm considering making an island a Seat of the Synod just as Wrench Mind tech and could possibly make the opponent board in dead cards if they see it.
@obZen
I tested your list quit a bit and i really like it!
What do you think about adding a second Twisted Abomination and a single Archaeomancer?
Awesome I'm glad the deck is putting up numbers for others as well! Adding more creatures to the deck doesn't seem exciting to me personally, but I would like to hear your rationale.
Archaeomancer and Rolling Thunder seems sweet, Im testing a UBW but I have thought that UBR could be interesting because it is better against U decks (Pyroblast) and against agro I really like Firebolt. Although UBW has life gains, Momentary blink and Guardian of the guildpact
I used to think the same way you can see some of my old decklists when I was testing skred and friends in a grixis shell. Needless to say I wasn't very pleased, and almost everything you want the red in there for you can do comparably to black, so there's not much need to make the mana worse by adding a 3rd color.
I ran into some decks with exile cards, that's why I thought about adding a second Twisted Abomination.
Because once it gets exiled, I found it very hard to win G1. I sometimes decked myself because I had no way to finish my opponent.
It's very possible to deck yourself, but when you do that it's generally because you did something wrong. Sure, your Twisted Abom could get exiled; it happens. But not your Grim Harvest and Crypt Rats. If you need to do ~20 and you have 6 cards left in your deck, that's generally an out (because you Incursion yourself to a high life total beforehand).
I ran into some decks with exile cards, that's why I thought about adding a second Twisted Abomination.
Because once it gets exiled, I found it very hard to win G1. I sometimes decked myself because I had no way to finish my opponent.
I'm not quite sure about Archaeomancer. Maybe he's too gimmicky
But I'll give it a try!
Pretty much what INS said. You have to remember that Crypt Incursion into Crypt Rats is a real win condition with Grim Harvest if for some reason Twisted Abomination doesn't work out or is going to be too slow(MBC).
Is there really any reason to play less than 4 Exclude right now?
Thank god someone agrees. I cut them last night for a couple of Spire Golems and some extra draw and it feels a million times better.
I also went up to 3 Exclude, but now that you mention it I suppose there isn't really much reason not to go to 4; every deck has creatures you want to counter. I'll try it out and see if it feels like too many.
Also, I was testing out a couple of possible ouside-the-box cards for a few matchups:
Curse of the Pierced Heart: After twice facing a UB control deck that mills as its primary win-con (they had so much removal I decked myself before I could kill them, even with Grim Harvest) I wanted to try out something they couldn't interact with, that wasn't Sprout Swarm (sometimes it gets milled, Duressed, or you lose the counterwar). The theory is if you can stick more than one, you'll easily win before you deck yourself, and it's only a two mana threat so you can more easily fight the counterwar. You could conceivably maindeck them, as literally no deck can interact with them G1, and almost no-one G2 either. I don't think it's worth the 4 sideboard slots at this stage, and I'm not sure if they work in smaller numbers (having just one is pitifully slow) but it's something to keep in mind.
I saw Razorfin Hunter in the UR control thread, and it seems really sweet against Delver, WW and other decks that run a lot of X/1s, including those Elves lists I've seen running around occasionally. Hopefully they'll have boarded out what little removal they have, and this guy can just go to town. I haven't had the chance to test him out as of yet, but on paper it seems effective.
Here's where I'm at now:
4 Prohibit
4 Exclude
4 Skred
1 Electrickery
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Staggershock
4 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Mystical Teachings
2 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Spire Golem
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Mnemonic Wall
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Lonely Sandbar
10 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Dispel
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Razorfin Hunter
2 Flame Slash
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Electrickery
1 Snuff Out
1 Mnemonic Wall
The Mnemonic Walls are mainly there in case Sprout Swarm gets Duressed or something. I went up to 4 Prohibits as my main gripe with them was that they couldn't counter MBC's 3 drop creatures, but with 4 Excludes this should be less of a problem. I may cut one or two for some Condescends or something though, depending on how they play.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
You're right it is. That might be why MUC doesn't play it. This is not a permission deck as it has board control and permission.
I don't think 4 exclude is the right number, but definitely some number of them. They're just too slow against dedicated aggro decks to have more than 2-3.
My point exactly with my reply to INS. your list is turning into MUC with a bunch of splashed colors. Pyroblast might be worth looking into as your answer to mill win cons like Curse of the bloody tome which admittedly are pretty hard to deal with post board. maybe over dispel.
Think Twice seems lackluster in comparison to Accumulated Knowledge for this deck since it's tutorable, and the investment to card ratio is higher on AK past the first one. I have been liking it personally.
EDIT:
After a couple hours of testing this evening here's where i'm at. I changed Memory Lapse and Negate in the toolbox to Exclude and Rewind. I've upped Electrickery to 2 since the deck was having problem with Hexproof, and this just destroys them. I've been surprised by the power of Crypt incursion; it single-handedly won me a game i had no right winning at the time, so it's here to stay in the toolbox as well. I also added a Bojuka Bog and 2 Izzet Boilerworks to the manabase and they have been very good. The creature suite seems strong, and i've had no problem with it so far.
2 Spire Monitor
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Counterspell
4 Prohibit
4 Skred
2 Flame Slash
2 Electrickery
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Exclude
1 Grim Harvest
1 Pyroblast
1 Rewind
1 Terminate
4 Grixis Panorama
2 Izzet Boilerworks
10 Snow-Covered Island
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
WU Rhystic Tron WU
WUBRG Snow-Go WUBRG
ah nice I was kind of looking for a 4 drop to get on turn 3 in a BUG version i'm working on that uses Wall of Roots. This seems perfect.
WU Rhystic Tron WU
WUBRG Snow-Go WUBRG
This is true, good catch. I didn't think that one through. Lifegain in the current BUG version I have would definitely be helpful on that body since i'm trying to use Evincar's Justice which just feels horrible when you're trying to stabilize on low life with the draws where you don't get the early Wall of Roots.
aside from that I've updated my sideboard to the following:
1 Dispel
1 Exclude
1 Flame Slash
2 Hydroblast
1 Negate
3 Pyroblast
1 Shred Memory
2 Staggershock
1 Terminate
I found Gorilla shaman was just to narrow (while awesome when you armageddon Affinity) as mentioned by a friend of mine, and no real reason to play less than 4 pyroblast in the 75. Edict came up to a 2-of since hexproof is a natural problem for the deck, but is "winnable" game 1.
I do want to mention I was going to try a singleton Spellstutter Sprite in the slot that Dispel fills, but decided it was too loose after talking with a friend about it. I might test a few games with it, but for now it's dispel. My thought was maybe Mental Misstep for 2 mana is ok on a 1/1 flying body. Could be totally off base though.
Jadencamelot; You were right with your assessment of the tron matchup. I'm having less troubles with it since changing of those 2 counterspells in my toolbox, and just bringing in more removal/permission post board.
I plan on giving the deck a shot in some 2-man's some time soon since I'm low on tix to get into an 8-man.
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Think of it as a narrow counterspell that trades with something in combat, making it like a removal spell too.
This is what I started with:
4 Deprive
4 Exclude
4 Innocent Blood
1 Disfigure
3 Agony Warp
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Doom Blade
1 Echoing Decay
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Mysteries of the Deep
2 Curse of the Bloody Tome
4 Dimir Guildgate
1 Dimir Aqueduct
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Bojuka Bog
12 Island
3 Swamp
The 4 Deprive is an experiment. The original article suggested running 4, as it was based on an MUC shell and ran 21 lands with 8 one-mana cantrips. I want to see how much tempo loss they actually cause when played on turn 2-4; I suspect they're not as bad as they seem on paper, and very early testing supports this. I'm likely to end up dropping to 3 or 2 and adding some Prohibits, but they're staying at 4 for the moment until I prove that it's too many. They are, after all, an unconditional hard counter for 2.
The sideboard is in flux so I haven't put it here, but I'm playing 3-4 Spire Golems, another suggestion from the article. My reasoning is that aside from the decks against which they're simply a wall, any removal most opponents are running would be cut upon seeing me win with Curses maindeck, thus making them a very viable alternate win condition if Curse is too slow. They're testing very well.
I'm also working on a version that merges this with the more traditional lists.
Also, your manabase is terrible. You're trying to run a 3-colour deck with zero fixing whatsoever. At the very least, play 6-8 fetchlands. You don't need more than 2-3 copies of your off-colour lands as you rarely need more than one in play (especially if you decide to run Spire Golem and/or Counterspell).
Domain Zoo
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
3 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Faerie Invaders
2 Mulldrifter
1 Spire Monitor
Spells:27
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Agony Warp
4 Counterspell
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Doom Blade
1 Grim Harvest
1 Prohibit
1 Crypt Incursion
4 Exclude
1 Wail of the Nim
2 Evincar's Justice
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dimir Aqueduct
4 Dimir Guildgate
14 Island
5 Swamp
Ins I might have to deem your question of why not play 4 exclude a very good one. I'm trying it out as you can see.
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Really? I've never had a problem with mine when playing 8 Terramorphics. I can only surmise that it's because you need to draw a specific one of the two types of guildgates to find the colour you need, whereas any Terramorphic will fetch you any missing colour. Maybe try that setup before you abandon Grixis altogether?
I quite like your list, I'm going to have to try it out when I get the time.
One minor thing, is there a reason for the singleton Prohibit? I was thinking Deprive or Faerie Trickery might be more useful in that slot (Deprive can bounce a Bojuka Bog for reuse against graveyard decks) unless you wanted it for the single blue cost.
EDIT: Actually I only just noticed that you've dropped to two Teachings. Can you explain your reasoning?
Domain Zoo
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
WU Rhystic Tron WU
WUBRG Snow-Go WUBRG
2 Mulldrifter
1 Faerie Invaders
1 Spire Monitor
//Spells
4 Preordain
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Counterspell
4 Exclude
4 Flame Slash
2 Rolling Thunder
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Electrickery
1 Grim Harvest
1 Negate
1 Prohibit
1 Pyroblast
1 Doom Blade
1 Terminate
4 Dimir Guildgate
4 Grixis Panorama
4 Izzet Guildgate
8 Island
3 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Curse of the Bloody Tome
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Echoing Decay
1 Negate
1 Prohibit
3 Pyroblast
2 Serrated Arrows
1 Doom Blade
1 Terminate
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2 Deprive
2 Prohibit
3 Exclude
4 Skred
1 Magma Spray
1 Electrickery
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Doom Blade
1 Terminate
1 Staggershock
1 Crypt Incursion
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Mystical Teachings
3 Curse of the Bloody Tome
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Lonely Sandbar
10 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Pyroblast
3 Spire Golem
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Electrickery
2 Shattering Pulse
1 Spire Monitor
I've been happy with the 2/2 split of Deprive and Prohibit. I occasionally have problems with countering 3-drops on the draw, but this is equally made up for by not bouncing a land and being castable for a single U (I can fetch a mountain on turn 1, still hold a counter up on 2, and then kill something on turn 3).
I've tried switching things up by moving to a Brainstorm/AK draw suite. While Alchemy does synergise with AK, I felt that it was sometimes a liability because you have no way to recur a lost singleton bullet that you couldn't select. Brainstorm, however, is a great way to solve both mana screw and flood, and works very well with 12 shuffle effects in the deck. It's cheap, too, which is always a boon. Similarly, AK does an impression of Think Twice, but effectively replaces Mysteries of the Deep (my teachings target when I need to just draw some damn cards), which frees up a slot for a 4th Teachings - something both necessary and allowable by the sudden lack of mana sinks (no Alchemy/Think Twice flashback). Plus, you can now easily tutor for 3 or 4 AKs because of the longer Teachings chain.
The third Curse is in the main now, because I found I was boarding in either it or the Spire Golems every game. With Brainstorm I can shuffle it away if I find it too early. Also, some decks run outs in the main (Kor Sanctifiers, etc) and so I want to make sure I can actually win. The Magma Spray is in there for annoying cards like Young Wolf. I ended up running both Terminate and Doom Blade (at the cost of a second Staggershock) because I've been in situations where only one will suit (regen, pro-red, no red source, etc) and would like outs to both.
I caved and bought some Pyroblasts because I got fed up with losing to Delver game 2 and 3 when they bring in all their extra countermagic. Postboard, I have a crap ton of cards against them now (Spire Golem, Electrickery, 'blast), although all three serve dual purposes versus other decks. The Spire Monitor is just a fourth Spire Golem, because I found that sometimes Golem would die to the same hate they bring in for Curse (Disenchant effects) and I wanted one that was impervious to that hate. Plus, it's tutorable.
I'm thinking of going up to 25 land, and possibly also working in a Traumatic Visions (I like having the flexibility to Teachings for a land, and it effectively brings the count to 26 while having utility lategame). I'm finding many of the games I lose are because of not drawing enough lands, and now with Accumulated Knowledge it makes it harder to hit land drops than with Think Twice (you need multiple copies to see as many cards, which is usually via a Teachings chain).
Thoughts?
Domain Zoo
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
All that being said, I feel like taking a bit of a fresh start to the format. I want to play control, but I'm pretty open-minded. I was thinking about trying to find a way to up the power level to a permission shell (Teachings or otherwise; I'd want to play Teachings by default). I feel like it's a pain in the neck to deal with some of the 1-drop aggression decks, as well as dealing with the mass card advantage and high amount of variety that Affinity has...so I want to try to bring a more powerful engine to the table when I play.
I was testing for a while with Sprouting Vines as a way to draw a lot of cards early--that was pretty good with Rewind, Oona's Grace, and Teachings, and it was really really good with Brainstorm. I also like Saruli Gatekeepers, since it just completely shafts burn decks and a number of other aggro strategies by itself. What do you guys think about going in a UGx(y) direction with some of these kinds of cards, powering up the deck a little bit? I'm talking about keeping to a permission focus, but having some bomb-ish cards in this cut-throat format.
Also just throwing the idea out there: we could use Abundant Growth (plus Gates) to power up a pretty consistent 3 or 4 colour list, perhaps with red as a tertiary colour and only a minor splash of black?
EDIT: Flicker/Wall seems good with Gatekeepers. Or even just Flicker; 14 free life is hard to beat for any aggro deck.
Any other reasons to be in green? Really wish Wall of Blossoms were common.
Domain Zoo
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Here's his latest deck:
4 Dimir Guildgate
3 Evolving Wilds
8 Islands
6 Swamp
3 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Pristine Talisman
Creatures (7)
4 Mulldrifter
2 Twisted Abomination
1 Ulamog's Crusher
Draw (7)
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Oona's Grace
4 Counterspell
1 Deprive
1 Dispel
4 Dead Weight
2 Doom Blade
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Devour Flesh
2 Evincar's Justice
1 Tragic Slip
1 Echoing Truth
4 Choking Sands
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Curfew
2 Curse of the Bloody Tome
1 Dispel
1 Evincar's Justice
3 Hydroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Serrated Arrows
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
http://puremtgo.com/articles/pauper-classic-tuesdays-4-wretched-hive-scum-and-villainy
4 Dimir Guildgate
4 Evolving Wilds
6 Island
4 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
//Spells
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Disfigure
4 Exclude
1 Faerie Trickery
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Grim Harvest
1 Impulse
4 Innocent Blood
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Prohibit
1 Wail of the Nim
2 Crypt Rats
1 Mulldrifter
1 Twisted Abomination
3 Brindle Boar
1 Forest
2 Hydroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Curse of the Bloody Tome
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Agony Warp
1 Coffin Purge
1 Augur of Skulls
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Can you talk about the singleton Impulse and what brought you to it as opposed to the fourth Teachings? I've debated playing that card for awhile, but I've held off because I play the BUg variant with Sprout Swarm and Havenwood Wurm and can tutor up my win cons on demand. Is it to help you find your creatures?
Also, if you don't mind, talk about the Brindle Boar splash from the SB.
WU Rhystic Tron WU
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Indeed, I'm reformatting my deck right now to try your version. Well-played tonight.
EDIT: Quick question, though. You seemed to struggle on land drops at times, do you think you're too light at 22?
Thank you! I don't think 22 lands is "too light" as much as I would say it has it's pros and cons. I mostly moved to lower land count due to brainstorms, but also because the deck operates fairly well one 1-2 mana, and can handle getting stuck on a land drop for a couple turns usually. Plus, Twisted Abomination is often a land early so in theory you have 23 lands, and with 4 brainstorm you up that to about 25.
The biggest hurdle you will have to overcome when playing the deck is getting comfortable with the hands, because your biggest fear is going to be the hand that has: fetch, BS, and 5 other spells in the 2 and 3 cmc range. on the draw I say sure you can probably keep it if the interactions are there if you make your second drop, but DO NOT keep on the play. These hands are high risk high reward, and is worth the risk usually if you're an extra card deep.
As an aside the only thing I changed from last week's list was going down to 6 fetches from 8, and adding 2 island. I'm considering making an island a Seat of the Synod just as Wrench Mind tech and could possibly make the opponent board in dead cards if they see it.
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Awesome I'm glad the deck is putting up numbers for others as well! Adding more creatures to the deck doesn't seem exciting to me personally, but I would like to hear your rationale.
I used to think the same way you can see some of my old decklists when I was testing skred and friends in a grixis shell. Needless to say I wasn't very pleased, and almost everything you want the red in there for you can do comparably to black, so there's not much need to make the mana worse by adding a 3rd color.
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It's very possible to deck yourself, but when you do that it's generally because you did something wrong. Sure, your Twisted Abom could get exiled; it happens. But not your Grim Harvest and Crypt Rats. If you need to do ~20 and you have 6 cards left in your deck, that's generally an out (because you Incursion yourself to a high life total beforehand).
Pretty much what INS said. You have to remember that Crypt Incursion into Crypt Rats is a real win condition with Grim Harvest if for some reason Twisted Abomination doesn't work out or is going to be too slow(MBC).
WU Rhystic Tron WU
WUBRG Snow-Go WUBRG