I have had some discussions with I.N.S. and many people have posted lists around but lets pull together and make an official thread. Now that post is gone there is a bit more room to build a pure "Flashy" control deck!
I have a straight UB list that is close to this with Disfigues and 2 Evincar's Justice in the main but I keep coming back to a Grixis version because the red cards are quite handy. I.N.S. was running Green for Sprout swarm but I have been satisfied with Ninja Turtles ftw!
Main deck Draw 3 Mystical Teachings (Powerful selection but a bit slow for 4) 4 Accumulated Knowledge (Amazing card advantage with teachings) 2 Forbidden Alchemy (Sort of like cheap teachings good with +Yard spells) 2 Probe (Good filtering and can help put them in topdeck mode.)
Counters 4 Rune Snag (Stay useful as the game goes on and easy to cast) 3 Counterspell (The famous "No" mana is hard in 3 color) 2 Memory lapse (Meh, you want them to flood not top deck threats) 1 Exclude (Just own 1 idk if i want more, its a bit conditional and clunky)
I am a big fan of teachings and it definitely has a better chance in the new meta, but I kind of feel that I want a few more creatures these days... in your list I'm really not feeling the snapper although there is some benefit to such a low creature count
a bigger issue is the three colors, what is the reason for three colors? if you're bringing in burn for creature control (which you will be) then I'd say just stay black because you'll be able to do a better job of that
There is a big write up on it pre-banning and I gave it some play time. I almost immediately dropped white and upped Grim Harvest to a two of. The more I worked on it, I found resounding thunder to be unnecessary which the original writer did too. As good as skred is when you need to answer big scary monsters, I'm sort of thinking dropping red all together and just going BUG would be better too. Unfortunately the deck just got eaten alive by anything trying to cast Temporal Fissure so I gave up on it but it's worth revisiting and the life gain + heavy removal made it nearly impossible for aggro to win. I'd love to see what others might manipulate it into. For those that immediately say Brindle Boar is bad, which it usually is, it's such a house in this deck with the Grim Harvest that at the time I wanted to be able to run two more of them so I could just Brindle Boar people to death.
I played U/B Teachings at a local paper tournament awhile ago, where there was an unspoken agreement that no one would play Post or Storm decks. Here was my list:
I beat the snot out of all the homebrews I played against (lots of different token decks that day) but lost to Infect (this was when Invigorate was still legal) and MBC with Hymn to Tourach (common in paper). Wail of the Nim was sweet vs. all the tokens, Oracle is a nice wall vs. aggro that helps you dig (and combos with Capsize for extra draw if needed). I don't think this deck would be great vs. the online meta, it's probably too slow vs. Affinity or Delver, but I figured I could post it for comparison's sake, if nothing else.
I am a big fan of teachings and it definitely has a better chance in the new meta, but I kind of feel that I want a few more creatures these days... in your list I'm really not feeling the snapper although there is some benefit to such a low creature count
a bigger issue is the three colors, what is the reason for three colors? if you're bringing in burn for creature control (which you will be) then I'd say just stay black because you'll be able to do a better job of that
This is a great article certainly worth the read!
Why would we want more creatures? One strength of the deck is blanking removal, even snapper can still be Edicted away but very few decks run them.
Black doesn't do a beter job of creature control than red at one mana, I feel miserable every time I cast disfigure and think how much higher power level Bolt is. Teaching for Electrickery is very handy and Red also lets me kill artifacts. I may just go down to 2-3 Edicts (who are also necessary) and push the mana more to UR.
Hahah that 5 color pigs deck looks interesting! I certainly like that tusker is an instant speed draw 2 who can also win the game.
legerdemain07 How reliable is Ephemeron at not dying? Otherwise the UB list is nice, Oracle is certainly good at slowing down agro. Surviving is priority one in this deck Once I am casting AK for 3-4 its pretty easy to put the game away so i don't know how much recursion shenanigans are needed.
Next I am just finally gona try a BUg version with Sprout Swarm like INS has but play more cheap removal. Certainly tempted to try the Piggy recursion in there too hehe
legerdemain07 How reliable is Ephemeron at not dying?
The thing that's sweet about Ephemeron is that it comes into play with all of your mana untapped, so you can try to shape your hand to plan on countering removal or counters from my opponent. The downside is that your opponent knows it is coming and might try flooding the board with multiple threats to force you to use up your counters, or sandbag multiple removal/counters to the point that you can't counter them all and just die before Ephemeron resolves. A few times I just waited until my opponent was topdecking, then hard cast it with counter back-up, since the deck had no problem going long.
A note on Sea Gate Oracle in this deck, in regards to your comment about creatures in a Teachings shell: if it cantrips for me and then trades with another creature or draws a removal spell, I'm up a card on my opponent, so I don't mind that it turns on my opponent's removal (one less removal spell for Ephemeron). Also, Sea Gate Oracle is pretty cool in deck with Teachings; I would put Counterspells on the bottom to save for the late game while digging for my Rune Snags, then tutor up the Counterspell later or draw them naturally due to all of my shuffle effects. I originally used Preordain for the same tutor-synergy and better digging, but decided the body on Oracle was more useful; kinda like a poor man's Wall of Omens or something to that effect. I could be wrong about that, though; there's enough shuffle effects in the deck that maybe Brainstorm would be good.
The problem with relying on blockers is that it's a bad gameplan against Eye Candy. If they're playing the good build with Brainstroms, you basically have to assume every single game that they will find an Assault Strobe, a way to ignore blockers, and any kind of third spell to make their dude 10-power DS and unblockable for a 1-shot.
This doesn't mean you can't tap out against the deck, but basically Sea Gate Oracle does nothing against that deck but Sleight of Hand. And it's nothing against the 1/3 body of Sea Gate Oracle, either (I've been playing with Tilling Treefolk for the past 3 weeks, so obviously I think that's acceptable)--it's just not relevant for that match-up.
Sea Gate Oracle is also not very useful against fliers, which are in basically anything with Islands, Plains, or Seats of the Synod. It'll stall a Ninja, though, so that's obviously good.
By the way, that 5-color Pigs deck only has 23 lands and 10 initial sources of green, so I wouldn't touch that until someone overhauls the manabase. 10 sources of your primary color is not enough. You need 12, minimum. And frankly, I think that Grazing Gladehart is a much more efficient way to gain life than paying 2G+3BB each turn to Brindle Boar and sac it, especially in a deck that already has fetchlands. It's not like you can't get a Gladehart back with Grim Harvest, either.
Here's the problem I keep running into with UB draw-go control: Most of the top decks that we're competing with (Delver, Stompy, Eye Candy) run 16-19 land and build tempo by casting multiple spells in a turn by t3 or so, which a deck like the one I posted above can't keep up with. Either my answers are more expensive than their threats (2-mana removal/counter vs 1 mana threat) or I flood out because I'm running anywhere from 6 to 8 more land than they are.
Can a deck like this go down to 22-23 land without a mana engine like Post and still be competitive? I feel like all my draw spells are being negated by the extra land I'm running.
Why would you need to cut 3-4 land in the first place? The problem isn't your land count, it's that your mana curve isn't stable and you need a better way to mitigate draws.
You should be happy to hit 6-8 more land than your opponent, so you can make multiple plays in one turn. The only thing that matters is that you're still interacting while you hit those land drops. Call the problem what it is.
Why would we want more creatures? One strength of the deck is blanking removal, even snapper can still be Edicted away but very few decks run them.
because they are your win condition... consider UB (which is the most typical version of the deck), if you run those colors with only four creatures I only need four kill spells, sure this is overly generic, but you get the point I'm trying to make
because they are your win condition... consider UB (which is the most typical version of the deck), if you run those colors with only four creatures I only need four kill spells, sure this is overly generic, but you get the point I'm trying to make
This can be solved in 3 ways:
1. Win with something that removal cannot stop. Sprout Swarm is one of these kinds of endgames. Another one is Grim Harvest (and patience).
2. Clear your opponent's hand out before you run threats out there. Mind Burst (in a build with Forbidden Alchemy) can do this.
3. Play lots of threats, as you suggested.
A good build combines 2-3 of these plans in its 75.
The problem isn't your land count, it's that your mana curve isn't stable and you need a better way to mitigate draws.
I had considered the mana curve and the ability to cast multiple spells per turn, which had led me to both Ghastly Demise and Rewind, but I didn't want to run full playsets of those and I wasn't sure about conditional answers like Force Spike or Disfigure that would let me cast multiple spells per turn early in the game because I don't have a discard outlet like Probe that lets me get value out of those cards when they otherwise become dead in the later rounds. But maybe I need one? I was looking for more unconditional answers, but I'm willing to test anything. As for mitigating draws, I'm assuming you mean something like Brainstorm? That's another card I had considered along with Preordain, as the deck has plenty of shuffle effects.
Mind Burst (in a build with Forbidden Alchemy) can do this.
I was hoping you were going to play something like this in the PBC.
Well I was just going to say, what about full set of probe and force Spike?
Countering something like Cloud of Faeries on the draw would be pretty sweet, as long your opponent doesn't have Daze. But Delver typically only runs 2, and we can't counter a two-drop on the draw with any other spell, so I think it bears testing.
I like the idea of Probe, but how many do we run? I don't think it can be more than 2, we don't want to be casting it on t3.
A couple Brainstorm could work with 8 fetch and teachings, spike is easy to play around once they see it but it can make them slow down and a lot of decks are tight on mana so it can also act as a virtual land destruction just be being in your deck. It it easy to side out for more cheap removal or dispel, I'm gona test it.
1. Win with something that removal cannot stop. Sprout Swarm is one of these kinds of endgames. Another one is Grim Harvest (and patience).
I know how to solve it thanks lol I was making the point to answer his question
and swarm is such a medicore end game in comparison to some of the other possibilities... while it has been done it takes quite a bit of mana to get it to a heavy creation state and even then loses to a Counterspell and/or Crypt Rats
Haven't had a chance to try this yet but really like the look of it with more 1cc spells to interact early and efficiently. Im quite sure people will walk right into Spike regularly game one. Brainstorm is quite strong here with 8 fetches and can turn a pile of dead cards into action. There is basically 4 open slots that I want to discuss. Either more Counters, Toolbox options, or even Creature recursion depending on how the meta shapes up.
*Flex slot options
4 Rune Snag or 2 Mana leak 2 Memory Lapse maybe to much conditional permision
4 Tool Box: Wail of the Nim, Crypt incursion, Negate, Exclude
2 Evincar's Justice, 1 Crypt incursion, 1 Forbidden Alchemy vs agro field
Recursion End Game -3 Shroud guys + 4 Mulldrifter +2 Archaeomancer +1 Grim Harvest
Rune Snag is a trap card I've fallen for many times, Mana Leak is better, but you may want to not be so counter focused especially not Force Spike, which is a dead card most of any game and easily beaten by things like Dispel when it comes to card power
I'm kind of o-k with Probe even though its a sorcery because you're not running a lot, but it will require you to tap out for five to kick, Brainstorm is meh I think here I might try a single Oona's Grace if anything
Also consider like two copies Agony Warp, which tends to be a 2x staple in UB
8x fetch lands is rough because that's 10 lands entering tapped and slowing you down
and still feel your creature base is too light to win games... without anything like Grim Harvest (also usually a must for teachings) you're dead to three successful edicts or any 1 power creature that blocks your snapper and the choices are not so great... snapper dies to everything... seriously if you attack it dies to everything shroud or not it won't be able to attack in this metagame and the giant is o-k but you're looking at a 6cc for that kind of investment I'd rather have Mulldrifters, which have evasion and draw
Rune Snag is a trap card I've fallen for many times, Mana Leak is better, but you may want to not be so counter focused especially not Force Spike, which is a dead card most of any game and easily beaten by things like Dispel when it comes to card power
Rune Snag is a trap card I've fallen for many times, Mana Leak is better, but you may want to not be so counter focused especially not Force Spike, which is a dead card most of any game and easily beaten by things like Dispel when it comes to card power.
I think Rune Snag could be ok if you're running four of it in a build focused on Forbidden Alchemy as the draw engine, along with cards like Accumulated Knowledge, Mind Burst, and maybe Aether Burst or Flame Burst (although Grixis mana is a stretch, based on my limited attempts at brewing this). Teachings could still be played in a build like that, as it would give you another card to bin for value with Alchemy; same with Oona's Grace.
As for Force Spike, it saw tournament-level constructed play for years in decks that ran discard outlets like Probe, Zombie Infestation, Merfolk Looter, and Wild Mongrel, proving that its weaknesses can be played around in the right type of deck. I'm not saying it's automatically good, but the fact that it can let a control deck prevent a Stompy or Hexproof deck from just loading the board in the first couple turns, even while on the draw, can't be dismissed out of hand. I think it bears further testing, hoping to hear something from Chromatone about his experiences with it soon.
I've been kind of wondering that myself recently. I've seen most MUC going to Miscalculation and Mana Leak, which used to show in two color control to make up for color balance seems to have kind of disappeared. I've noticed that most MUC use it to cycle instead of as countermagic so I guess they've decided the utility plays out as its a slightly weaker counter that can also Think Twice without the flashback.
As for Force Spike, it saw tournament-level constructed play for years in decks that ran discard outlets like Probe, Zombie Infestation, Merfolk Looter, and Wild Mongrel, proving that its weaknesses can be played around in the right type of deck.
metagames shift, new cards are printed... not to sound rude, but you're stretching pretty far back in the meta to cite use of Force Spike when it did see small amounts of play in DelverBlue before the Red Storm/Infect bans happened... don't get me wrong I'm not saying its a bad card, but I don't think this is the meta for it
This deck "Wins" locking the opponent out of plays by negating their every relevant resource at instant speed. You only need 2-4 actual finishers. Complain about two probe then say to run a bunch of sorcery speed creatures? Love miscalculation, not sure I even realized it was in the format! Forcespike seems amazing in your opener and with the right cards to toos it later. How does mono U keep from Falling behind especially on the draw?
This deck "Wins" locking the opponent out of plays by negating their every relevant resource at instant speed. You only need 2-4 actual finishers. Complain about two probe then say to run a bunch of sorcery speed creatures? Love miscalculation, not sure I even realized it was in the format! Forcespike seems amazing in your opener and with the right cards to toos it later. How does mono U keep from Falling behind especially on the draw?
Chromatone,
Do you play in Daily Events? If so you should submit your deck to the Pauper Brewers Championship on Casting Commons. You seem to be passionate about your deck and JustSin has been providing you with good feedback. The competition only requires that you play in Daily Events and sign up. Further prizes will be provided based on performance and participation at no extra cost to the player. Thank you for your consideration.
Forcespike seems amazing in your opener and with the right cards to toos it later. How does mono U keep from Falling behind especially on the draw?
From what I can tell, Piracy Charm + Daze is how MUC tries to keep tempo on the draw. A UB list could run either Piracy Charm or Funeral Charm, if it wanted such an effect.
I have always liked Force Spike, but I think it's strange to justify that card by playing Probe. Nothing against Probe, but I don't really understand playing 1-mana counters+Teachings and then not building the rest of your deck around instants. I feel like it would be better if you could find something that loots, but is also an instant. Otherwise, why Force Spike? Why not just a 1-mana removal spell?
A couple Brainstorm could work with 8 fetch and teachings, spike is easy to play around once they see it but it can make them slow down and a lot of decks are tight on mana so it can also act as a virtual land destruction just be being in your deck. It it easy to side out for more cheap removal or dispel, I'm gona test it.
I did this a couple of years ago, in Skred Teachings (which was URbg with a focus on counters, red removal, and then splashing B for Teachings FB and G for the endgame and Ancient Grudge). Brainstorm was simultaneously the best card in the deck and the worst card in the deck. It was great for fixing draws, but it was terrible in the sense that the deck had 8 fetches and 4 Brainstorm and had serious tempo issues just trying to set up. Now, in a less greedy build, this drastically changes. Or, in a build with a different draw suite (Krosan Tusker or Sprouting Vines, anybody?), this changes. Or if you're playing other shuffle effects, like the Panoramas or landcycling cards, this changes. But with 8 Terramorphic/Evolving, I can attest to the fact that Brainstorm gets really awkward in early-game situations.
I think if you can make Brainstorm work, it will be unbelievable with Mystical Teachings. But if you don't plan it out carefully, it can be really awkward.
I know how to solve it thanks lol I was making the point to answer his question
I acknowledged this. I just thought it would be a good idea to elaborate on the concept of fighting through infinite removal, as with trying to beat Rats.dec. I agree that you know how to handle lots of removal to end games, but what you were saying was just acknowledging a deckbuilding challenge--not really offering many options. So I wrote my preferred options for handling lots of removal with a Teachings deck. I know I was quoting you, but I meant to just speak my mind in general to anyone who was reading this thread.
and swarm is such a medicore end game in comparison to some of the other possibilities... while it has been done it takes quite a bit of mana to get it to a heavy creation state and even then loses to a Counterspell and/or Crypt Rats
First of all, if you're losing to a counterspell, it's your own fault for getting your finisher countered. Don't blame Sprout Swarm for that. It's a 5-mana flash spell with a shaved mana cost once it gets going. If it's getting countered, it should either be because you're using it as bait or because you don't have any other options.
Second, Crypt Rats doesn't stop Sprout Swarm; it only stalls it and trades life points. Crypt Rats doesn't take the spell out of your hand; it just resets the board. The fact of the matter is that Crypt Rats is more dangerous because it can burn you out, but if you're in the final stage of a Teachings chain it's not the Sprout Swarm's fault if you're getting burnt out by Crypt Rats. Your deck needs to be built to handle that possibility, as MBC is an old deck and Crypt Rats is a very known quantity your engine should acknowledge.
The real problem with Sprout Swarm is that it costs a green mana to get going.
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I have a straight UB list that is close to this with Disfigues and 2 Evincar's Justice in the main but I keep coming back to a Grixis version because the red cards are quite handy. I.N.S. was running Green for Sprout swarm but I have been satisfied with Ninja Turtles ftw!
Draw
3 Mystical Teachings (Powerful selection but a bit slow for 4)
4 Accumulated Knowledge (Amazing card advantage with teachings)
2 Forbidden Alchemy (Sort of like cheap teachings good with +Yard spells)
2 Probe (Good filtering and can help put them in topdeck mode.)
Counters
4 Rune Snag (Stay useful as the game goes on and easy to cast)
3 Counterspell (The famous "No" mana is hard in 3 color)
2 Memory lapse (Meh, you want them to flood not top deck threats)
1 Exclude (Just own 1 idk if i want more, its a bit conditional and clunky)
Removal
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrickery
1 Burst Lightning
1 Staggershock
1 Doom Blade
4 Calcite Snapper
Lands (Need help here!)
8 Island
2 Swmap
2 Mountain
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Rackdos Guildgate
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Rakdos Carnarium
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Durres
3 Dispell
1 Crypt incursion
1 Coffin Purge
3 Perilous Myr
2 Shattering Pulse
2 Innocent Blood
http://www.mtgoacademy.com/anything-but-paupers-toolbox/
I am a big fan of teachings and it definitely has a better chance in the new meta, but I kind of feel that I want a few more creatures these days... in your list I'm really not feeling the snapper although there is some benefit to such a low creature count
a bigger issue is the three colors, what is the reason for three colors? if you're bringing in burn for creature control (which you will be) then I'd say just stay black because you'll be able to do a better job of that
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
Check me out on Twitter & Get a little MTGO Therapy
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Viridian Emissary
4 Brindle Boar
4 Mulldrifter
1 Ingot Chewer
4 Krosan Tusker
Other Spells
2 Electrickery
3 Skred
1 Negate
1 Devour Flesh
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Grim Harvest
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Tribal Flames
1 Strangling Soot
2 Resounding Thunder
2 Mystical Teachings
2 Evolving Wilds
5 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Snow-Covered Island
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Sun's Bounty
1 Devour Flesh
1 Electrickery
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Stone Rain
2 Earth Rift
1 Icefall
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Faultgrinder
1 Thermokarst
There is a big write up on it pre-banning and I gave it some play time. I almost immediately dropped white and upped Grim Harvest to a two of. The more I worked on it, I found resounding thunder to be unnecessary which the original writer did too. As good as skred is when you need to answer big scary monsters, I'm sort of thinking dropping red all together and just going BUG would be better too. Unfortunately the deck just got eaten alive by anything trying to cast Temporal Fissure so I gave up on it but it's worth revisiting and the life gain + heavy removal made it nearly impossible for aggro to win. I'd love to see what others might manipulate it into. For those that immediately say Brindle Boar is bad, which it usually is, it's such a house in this deck with the Grim Harvest that at the time I wanted to be able to run two more of them so I could just Brindle Boar people to death.
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Rune Snag
4 Counterspell
2 Rewind
2 Faerie Trickery
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Agony Warp
1 Capsize
1 Wail of the Nim
2 Errant Ephemeron
13 Island
6 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Evolving Wilds
I beat the snot out of all the homebrews I played against (lots of different token decks that day) but lost to Infect (this was when Invigorate was still legal) and MBC with Hymn to Tourach (common in paper). Wail of the Nim was sweet vs. all the tokens, Oracle is a nice wall vs. aggro that helps you dig (and combos with Capsize for extra draw if needed). I don't think this deck would be great vs. the online meta, it's probably too slow vs. Affinity or Delver, but I figured I could post it for comparison's sake, if nothing else.
This is a great article certainly worth the read!
Why would we want more creatures? One strength of the deck is blanking removal, even snapper can still be Edicted away but very few decks run them.
Black doesn't do a beter job of creature control than red at one mana, I feel miserable every time I cast disfigure and think how much higher power level Bolt is. Teaching for Electrickery is very handy and Red also lets me kill artifacts. I may just go down to 2-3 Edicts (who are also necessary) and push the mana more to UR.
Hahah that 5 color pigs deck looks interesting! I certainly like that tusker is an instant speed draw 2 who can also win the game.
legerdemain07 How reliable is Ephemeron at not dying? Otherwise the UB list is nice, Oracle is certainly good at slowing down agro. Surviving is priority one in this deck Once I am casting AK for 3-4 its pretty easy to put the game away so i don't know how much recursion shenanigans are needed.
Next I am just finally gona try a BUg version with Sprout Swarm like INS has but play more cheap removal. Certainly tempted to try the Piggy recursion in there too hehe
The thing that's sweet about Ephemeron is that it comes into play with all of your mana untapped, so you can try to shape your hand to plan on countering removal or counters from my opponent. The downside is that your opponent knows it is coming and might try flooding the board with multiple threats to force you to use up your counters, or sandbag multiple removal/counters to the point that you can't counter them all and just die before Ephemeron resolves. A few times I just waited until my opponent was topdecking, then hard cast it with counter back-up, since the deck had no problem going long.
A note on Sea Gate Oracle in this deck, in regards to your comment about creatures in a Teachings shell: if it cantrips for me and then trades with another creature or draws a removal spell, I'm up a card on my opponent, so I don't mind that it turns on my opponent's removal (one less removal spell for Ephemeron). Also, Sea Gate Oracle is pretty cool in deck with Teachings; I would put Counterspells on the bottom to save for the late game while digging for my Rune Snags, then tutor up the Counterspell later or draw them naturally due to all of my shuffle effects. I originally used Preordain for the same tutor-synergy and better digging, but decided the body on Oracle was more useful; kinda like a poor man's Wall of Omens or something to that effect. I could be wrong about that, though; there's enough shuffle effects in the deck that maybe Brainstorm would be good.
This doesn't mean you can't tap out against the deck, but basically Sea Gate Oracle does nothing against that deck but Sleight of Hand. And it's nothing against the 1/3 body of Sea Gate Oracle, either (I've been playing with Tilling Treefolk for the past 3 weeks, so obviously I think that's acceptable)--it's just not relevant for that match-up.
Sea Gate Oracle is also not very useful against fliers, which are in basically anything with Islands, Plains, or Seats of the Synod. It'll stall a Ninja, though, so that's obviously good.
By the way, that 5-color Pigs deck only has 23 lands and 10 initial sources of green, so I wouldn't touch that until someone overhauls the manabase. 10 sources of your primary color is not enough. You need 12, minimum. And frankly, I think that Grazing Gladehart is a much more efficient way to gain life than paying 2G+3BB each turn to Brindle Boar and sac it, especially in a deck that already has fetchlands. It's not like you can't get a Gladehart back with Grim Harvest, either.
Can a deck like this go down to 22-23 land without a mana engine like Post and still be competitive? I feel like all my draw spells are being negated by the extra land I'm running.
You should be happy to hit 6-8 more land than your opponent, so you can make multiple plays in one turn. The only thing that matters is that you're still interacting while you hit those land drops. Call the problem what it is.
because they are your win condition... consider UB (which is the most typical version of the deck), if you run those colors with only four creatures I only need four kill spells, sure this is overly generic, but you get the point I'm trying to make
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
Check me out on Twitter & Get a little MTGO Therapy
This can be solved in 3 ways:
1. Win with something that removal cannot stop. Sprout Swarm is one of these kinds of endgames. Another one is Grim Harvest (and patience).
2. Clear your opponent's hand out before you run threats out there. Mind Burst (in a build with Forbidden Alchemy) can do this.
3. Play lots of threats, as you suggested.
A good build combines 2-3 of these plans in its 75.
I had considered the mana curve and the ability to cast multiple spells per turn, which had led me to both Ghastly Demise and Rewind, but I didn't want to run full playsets of those and I wasn't sure about conditional answers like Force Spike or Disfigure that would let me cast multiple spells per turn early in the game because I don't have a discard outlet like Probe that lets me get value out of those cards when they otherwise become dead in the later rounds. But maybe I need one? I was looking for more unconditional answers, but I'm willing to test anything. As for mitigating draws, I'm assuming you mean something like Brainstorm? That's another card I had considered along with Preordain, as the deck has plenty of shuffle effects.
I was hoping you were going to play something like this in the PBC.
Countering something like Cloud of Faeries on the draw would be pretty sweet, as long your opponent doesn't have Daze. But Delver typically only runs 2, and we can't counter a two-drop on the draw with any other spell, so I think it bears testing.
I like the idea of Probe, but how many do we run? I don't think it can be more than 2, we don't want to be casting it on t3.
I know how to solve it thanks lol I was making the point to answer his question
and swarm is such a medicore end game in comparison to some of the other possibilities... while it has been done it takes quite a bit of mana to get it to a heavy creation state and even then loses to a Counterspell and/or Crypt Rats
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
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4 Counterspell
1 Exclude
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Mystical Teachings
2 Probe
2 Brainstrom
2 Disfigure
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Calcite Snapper
1 Benthic Giant (trying him, attacks into guys well)
5 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Dimir Aqueduct
*Flex slot options
4 Rune Snag or 2 Mana leak 2 Memory Lapse maybe to much conditional permision
4 Tool Box: Wail of the Nim, Crypt incursion, Negate, Exclude
2 Evincar's Justice, 1 Crypt incursion, 1 Forbidden Alchemy vs agro field
Recursion End Game -3 Shroud guys + 4 Mulldrifter +2 Archaeomancer +1 Grim Harvest
Rune Snag is a trap card I've fallen for many times, Mana Leak is better, but you may want to not be so counter focused especially not Force Spike, which is a dead card most of any game and easily beaten by things like Dispel when it comes to card power
I'm kind of o-k with Probe even though its a sorcery because you're not running a lot, but it will require you to tap out for five to kick, Brainstorm is meh I think here I might try a single Oona's Grace if anything
Also consider like two copies Agony Warp, which tends to be a 2x staple in UB
8x fetch lands is rough because that's 10 lands entering tapped and slowing you down
and still feel your creature base is too light to win games... without anything like Grim Harvest (also usually a must for teachings) you're dead to three successful edicts or any 1 power creature that blocks your snapper and the choices are not so great... snapper dies to everything... seriously if you attack it dies to everything shroud or not it won't be able to attack in this metagame and the giant is o-k but you're looking at a 6cc for that kind of investment I'd rather have Mulldrifters, which have evasion and draw
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
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What are your thoughts on Miscalculation vs Mana Leak?
I think Rune Snag could be ok if you're running four of it in a build focused on Forbidden Alchemy as the draw engine, along with cards like Accumulated Knowledge, Mind Burst, and maybe Aether Burst or Flame Burst (although Grixis mana is a stretch, based on my limited attempts at brewing this). Teachings could still be played in a build like that, as it would give you another card to bin for value with Alchemy; same with Oona's Grace.
As for Force Spike, it saw tournament-level constructed play for years in decks that ran discard outlets like Probe, Zombie Infestation, Merfolk Looter, and Wild Mongrel, proving that its weaknesses can be played around in the right type of deck. I'm not saying it's automatically good, but the fact that it can let a control deck prevent a Stompy or Hexproof deck from just loading the board in the first couple turns, even while on the draw, can't be dismissed out of hand. I think it bears further testing, hoping to hear something from Chromatone about his experiences with it soon.
I've been kind of wondering that myself recently. I've seen most MUC going to Miscalculation and Mana Leak, which used to show in two color control to make up for color balance seems to have kind of disappeared. I've noticed that most MUC use it to cycle instead of as countermagic so I guess they've decided the utility plays out as its a slightly weaker counter that can also Think Twice without the flashback.
metagames shift, new cards are printed... not to sound rude, but you're stretching pretty far back in the meta to cite use of Force Spike when it did see small amounts of play in DelverBlue before the Red Storm/Infect bans happened... don't get me wrong I'm not saying its a bad card, but I don't think this is the meta for it
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
Check me out on Twitter & Get a little MTGO Therapy
Chromatone,
Do you play in Daily Events? If so you should submit your deck to the Pauper Brewers Championship on Casting Commons. You seem to be passionate about your deck and JustSin has been providing you with good feedback. The competition only requires that you play in Daily Events and sign up. Further prizes will be provided based on performance and participation at no extra cost to the player. Thank you for your consideration.
Here is the information: http://www.castingcommons.com/pauper-brewers-championship-october-2013/
Eric
From what I can tell, Piracy Charm + Daze is how MUC tries to keep tempo on the draw. A UB list could run either Piracy Charm or Funeral Charm, if it wanted such an effect.
I did this a couple of years ago, in Skred Teachings (which was URbg with a focus on counters, red removal, and then splashing B for Teachings FB and G for the endgame and Ancient Grudge). Brainstorm was simultaneously the best card in the deck and the worst card in the deck. It was great for fixing draws, but it was terrible in the sense that the deck had 8 fetches and 4 Brainstorm and had serious tempo issues just trying to set up. Now, in a less greedy build, this drastically changes. Or, in a build with a different draw suite (Krosan Tusker or Sprouting Vines, anybody?), this changes. Or if you're playing other shuffle effects, like the Panoramas or landcycling cards, this changes. But with 8 Terramorphic/Evolving, I can attest to the fact that Brainstorm gets really awkward in early-game situations.
I think if you can make Brainstorm work, it will be unbelievable with Mystical Teachings. But if you don't plan it out carefully, it can be really awkward.
I acknowledged this. I just thought it would be a good idea to elaborate on the concept of fighting through infinite removal, as with trying to beat Rats.dec. I agree that you know how to handle lots of removal to end games, but what you were saying was just acknowledging a deckbuilding challenge--not really offering many options. So I wrote my preferred options for handling lots of removal with a Teachings deck. I know I was quoting you, but I meant to just speak my mind in general to anyone who was reading this thread.
First of all, if you're losing to a counterspell, it's your own fault for getting your finisher countered. Don't blame Sprout Swarm for that. It's a 5-mana flash spell with a shaved mana cost once it gets going. If it's getting countered, it should either be because you're using it as bait or because you don't have any other options.
Second, Crypt Rats doesn't stop Sprout Swarm; it only stalls it and trades life points. Crypt Rats doesn't take the spell out of your hand; it just resets the board. The fact of the matter is that Crypt Rats is more dangerous because it can burn you out, but if you're in the final stage of a Teachings chain it's not the Sprout Swarm's fault if you're getting burnt out by Crypt Rats. Your deck needs to be built to handle that possibility, as MBC is an old deck and Crypt Rats is a very known quantity your engine should acknowledge.
The real problem with Sprout Swarm is that it costs a green mana to get going.