So I played about 20 matches tonight with some home brews and EVERY deck has been playing Treasure Cruise.
All the mono-black decks are now splashing blue to play it, Tron plays it too, Zoo, all the other blue decks (obviously), Izzet Blitz plays it and I even saw it in the white tokens deck (litterally just adding 1 Island and 6 fetch lands to the deck).
All I have to say is that I'm just quitting MTGO for a few weeks. I'm really unhappy with what pauper is at right now. Every deck must play blue to win, because you can't beat Ancestral Recall with your rogue deck or your own homebrew if you are not playing it yourself or not countering it.
It might not show in daily events, I don't know, but in every game I played tonight, Treasure Cruise completely changed the game (because that's what 2 extra cards for 1 mana are worth in the pauper format, really). Affinity was already good with the really great Thoughtcast or even Perilous Research.
I'm just disappointed and I had to make a thread to complaint about it. Luckily, I'm mostly playing paper pauper, the decks I'm playing against aren't specifically T1 decks because we also like to have fun. So we do play decks that don't play blue and we do play decks that are not combo-based. Nothing more fun than playing goblins, zombies or even clerics. That's what this format is for.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Even in Limited, playing against Cruise feels unfair as all hell. I think there are going to be a nice number of bannings across pretty much every format, and I wouldn't put it past them to restrict it in Vintage, too.
At some point, I need to update my collection with Khans cards, and fix up my Grixis brew - I liked Read the Bones pretty well, but Treasure Cruise is just so much stronger.
I play Modern and Legacy IRL (a lot of why I've been so inactive here is I'm regularly playing FNM again) where I'm more or less happy with how Cruise is playing out in my local metagame. But, then, we have a lot better hate options against Cruise in those formats than this one. I would think it'll get banned eventually, but /when/ is a whole other question.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
Funny, I love Treasure Cruise. Not only because I play it (I have plenty of decks, and only two of them are running them). It can be game-changing. Drawing more cards than the opponent always is. I don't know if it's broken. I think we all need some time to adjust to the changes. Kind of like when Merchant came out last year and everyone was playing Black Control. Eventually, a portion of the people playing it will get bored and change to something else, and another will start to adapt to the change by main-decking gravehate or something. Some strategies just circumvent the draw spell entirely by simply not giving you enough time to play it.
Of the 20 games you played, how many of those lists were actually fine-tuned, and piloted by someone who knows what they're doing? I don't think those numbers will have changed all that much from before and after Treasure Cruise, and that's what should really make the difference in a game.
regarding the inclusion in affinity, i don't think there actually is a place for more than a singleton there. i agree on the prevalence on any deck that can produce blue mana, it's making me sick as well (it has singlehandedly prevented me to run 8rack in some serious event this year. i would gladly welcome back brainstorm or ponder in modern instead of treasure cruise).
People playing on MTGO probably noticed that I'm playing some fun tribal brews that used to be good (T1.5 to T2) but none of the tribal decks (whether it's goblins, zombies, clerics, rebels or elves) can't really beat TC (zombies can, but it takes at least 20 turns).
Also, Relic of Progenitus is played maindeck a lot now. Pauper on MTGO used to be fun and entertaining for me. It's not anymore. I'm not playing Legacy, Modern or Standard because I got bored of the control players. It's fun to have decks with synergies. It's fun to play Gangrenous Zombies instead of Crypt Rats just because you run Ghoulcaller's Chant, even if Crypt Rats is way better. But that's just me. Me playing EDH and trying to enjoy a 60-card format in a more competitive scheme while still playing for entertainment (not just to play 23 lands with 37 Counterspells and losing on turn 54 with an empty deck, and believe me it happened to me a lot against mono-blue Cruise decks, Spellstutter Sprite is just looking at that giant Viscera Dragger that I never casted).
It probably means that I will stick with paper pauper with my friends and stop trying on MTGO, because I don't want to play in a format where you either play TC or Relic. It's fun to win once on turn 35 when your opponent drew his 60 cards and still can't win, but it quickly becomes boring.
I will have to put some more money to build EDH decks if I want to have fun again on MTGO I guess. WotC wins.
I realize that WotC doesn't make the banlists only based on the fun that players have in the format. I think that Legacy has a big enough cardpool (and Modern too) so what we get to see different decks with different ways to win and cool interactions that are actually fun to play with or against. Standard is a different beast on its own because of the rotation. I now feel that it's not the case anymore in pauper, because TC kills so many different rogue decks that T1.5 are decks playing against TC and T1 decks are decks playing TC, with all the other decks sitting somewhere at T2.5.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Pauper goes through stages where it gets very warped because it has such a small toolbox to deal with 'problem' cards. I suspect if it shows up everywhere and hurts diversity it will get banned, but if diversity just changes to blue then it might not.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
And how would you qualify diversity changing to blue as opposed to "hurting the diversity"?
Every deck playing blue IS hurting diversity IMO. Decks are still different, but we get to see 1 Island with 6-8 fetch lands and 2-4 Cruise in every deck still. How isn't that format warping when people playing in DE are maindecking Reliv of Progenitus? Except for the occasion Cycling and Tortured Existence deck, Relic has only one mission: punish TC players.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Pauper was already dominated by blue, and Treasure Cruise seems to be as strong of a card as Delver of Secrets when that was released. Maybe stronger. I, for one, would not be surprised to see it get banned... though WotC will be slow in doing so, if they do. That's their signature.
Pauper was already dominated by blue, and Treasure Cruise seems to be as strong of a card as Delver of Secrets when that was released. Maybe stronger. I, for one, would not be surprised to see it get banned... though WotC will be slow in doing so, if they do. That's their signature.
Especially for pauper.
People are now playing Thought Scour targetting themselves. I saw this in Modern too.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
It is literally everywhere except in affinity and monoblack, and even players of those decks are considering running it.
i do play and advocate using it in affinity as 2 in 75 (the second one goes in when facing grindy matchups).
the card is too good. if you are playing blue, you need to run it to keep up; and if you can afford some lands coming into play tapped, fetchlands are enough fuel.
i hope wizards shows the same wisdom they had when banning invigorate and the storm cards: a card that warps lists in order to accomodate it needs to be banned almost by definition.
Yeah, I agree with every ban they made in pauper so far, Cloudpost was the one I had the most trouble with but looking at how strong is Tron doing now, I think it was the right move.
They now need to ban TC but I'm not sure we will see this Monday, it might take more time. I'm not sure about Cloud of Faerie, MBC is already really strong too.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
People are now playing Thought Scour targetting themselves. I saw this in Modern too.
To be fair that card has been previously used in a similar fashion. Back when it was in standard I saw it used targeting it's controller in order to get bigger buffs on Runechanter's Pike. Granted this is not as crazy as TC, but people have historically milled themselves for benefit, just not for an Ancestral Recall in modern/legacy/every format under the sun.
cloud of faeries banned would be my wet dream, but it's unlikely. familiar storm and ub control are a pain to play against, but nowhere near unfair or unbeatable; u/ur delver has one of their nut hands with one of those (delver, 2cc counter, cloud of faeries, 2 lands) but it's not more unfair than frogmite in affinity there.
to be honest, i don't recall this much uproar against a single card since cloudpost. the fact that people are moaning about it in almost every format but standard, is definitely a plus.
i really wish snap gone, even more than cloud of faeries.
Also, as I said, Cruise decks coming to the top will prompt anti-strategies to come off the darkness and position themselves well, as it is already happening with Aura.
Exactly what we want after all: Cruise decks against Relic of Progenitus decks. Relic is played maindeck a lot now, so is Bojuka Bog in any black deck. Relic of Progenitus maindeck??? In mono-white decks? I mean, seriously? Is this really what we want? Is that what you call diversity?
How do you expect the format to raise its power-level when you print with consistency broken cards in the same color year after year? How can the rest of the format adapt to Ancestral Recall, a card banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage? Don't tell me it's not the same thing. The only difference is that you don't have Force of Will to counter it. Or that every Vintage deck also plays Recall to match it.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Affinity is playing Cruise too you know. They already play blue. Most lists play from 1 to 2 Cruise for the most grindy matchups.
I agree that Aura and Green Stompy don't play TC, bu these decks were there before TC. TC is slower.
You can see the decks I'm playing in my sig, and yeah, the only way to win is to win before TC gets casted or by playing hate cards. Stompy wins before, Aura too. Mono-white often wins before too, at least the token version I'm playing. No need for Guardians. I have Pyroblasts in my red decks. Blue has Hydroblasts.
Since you are talking about Pod and Modern... well yeah, Pod is completely dominating, there is thread in the Modern forums showing how Pod is more than ~25% of the winning meta, and that's why I haven't been playing this format the 2 last years. Noting has changed since, except that Pod is even better now than it was.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Thanks Madmanquail, I don't necessarily have the time and the energy to do such a detailed analysis on Treasure Cruise and was considering my idea on TC to be more of an opinion based on my personal experience playing on MTGO and on my deck building skills overall, but I'm definitely happy to see someone sharing my opinion and adding maths, stats and facts to prove how broken that card is in the format.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Not sure how far back goldfish goes to get its data - looks like only the past couple weeks? Delver had a big resurgence a couple weeks ago, and the anti-delver deck of choice seems to have been a U/R control deck with a ton of burn, countermagic, and cantripping creatures. I'm not convinced the meta will stabilize like that - Affinity and MBC seem to do pretty well against the UR decks, and hexproof seems like a natural to come back. Plus there are all the combo decks, which actually had kind of a bad weekend last weekend for the first time in a long time.
Also, more people need to netdeck muuchan's tortured existence build.
Tortured Existence is pretty bad against maindeck Relic. I stopped playing it for that reason alone, you just kill Putrid Leech or whatever beater you have if you go BR and you're dead, since half of your deck is dead.
The deck used to be really good. That was before TC and Relic was maindecked. I loved playing that deck. It's pretty good against TC though, since they don't play Relic and they can't overcome the card advantage generated by madness dudes that basically 3-for-1 with their ETB and the infinite life you get with Brownscale.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
seems so. the banhammer takes time to arrive to pauper, how long people were stomped by invigorate, storm and locus lands before the bans?
Glimmerpost was printed in 2010, and Glistener Elf in 2011, and the bans of their decks were in 2013, so 2-3 years apparently.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
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All the mono-black decks are now splashing blue to play it, Tron plays it too, Zoo, all the other blue decks (obviously), Izzet Blitz plays it and I even saw it in the white tokens deck (litterally just adding 1 Island and 6 fetch lands to the deck).
All I have to say is that I'm just quitting MTGO for a few weeks. I'm really unhappy with what pauper is at right now. Every deck must play blue to win, because you can't beat Ancestral Recall with your rogue deck or your own homebrew if you are not playing it yourself or not countering it.
It might not show in daily events, I don't know, but in every game I played tonight, Treasure Cruise completely changed the game (because that's what 2 extra cards for 1 mana are worth in the pauper format, really). Affinity was already good with the really great Thoughtcast or even Perilous Research.
I'm just disappointed and I had to make a thread to complaint about it. Luckily, I'm mostly playing paper pauper, the decks I'm playing against aren't specifically T1 decks because we also like to have fun. So we do play decks that don't play blue and we do play decks that are not combo-based. Nothing more fun than playing goblins, zombies or even clerics. That's what this format is for.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Delve is bonkers.
I play Modern and Legacy IRL (a lot of why I've been so inactive here is I'm regularly playing FNM again) where I'm more or less happy with how Cruise is playing out in my local metagame. But, then, we have a lot better hate options against Cruise in those formats than this one. I would think it'll get banned eventually, but /when/ is a whole other question.
Of the 20 games you played, how many of those lists were actually fine-tuned, and piloted by someone who knows what they're doing? I don't think those numbers will have changed all that much from before and after Treasure Cruise, and that's what should really make the difference in a game.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Also, Relic of Progenitus is played maindeck a lot now. Pauper on MTGO used to be fun and entertaining for me. It's not anymore. I'm not playing Legacy, Modern or Standard because I got bored of the control players. It's fun to have decks with synergies. It's fun to play Gangrenous Zombies instead of Crypt Rats just because you run Ghoulcaller's Chant, even if Crypt Rats is way better. But that's just me. Me playing EDH and trying to enjoy a 60-card format in a more competitive scheme while still playing for entertainment (not just to play 23 lands with 37 Counterspells and losing on turn 54 with an empty deck, and believe me it happened to me a lot against mono-blue Cruise decks, Spellstutter Sprite is just looking at that giant Viscera Dragger that I never casted).
It probably means that I will stick with paper pauper with my friends and stop trying on MTGO, because I don't want to play in a format where you either play TC or Relic. It's fun to win once on turn 35 when your opponent drew his 60 cards and still can't win, but it quickly becomes boring.
I will have to put some more money to build EDH decks if I want to have fun again on MTGO I guess. WotC wins.
I realize that WotC doesn't make the banlists only based on the fun that players have in the format. I think that Legacy has a big enough cardpool (and Modern too) so what we get to see different decks with different ways to win and cool interactions that are actually fun to play with or against. Standard is a different beast on its own because of the rotation. I now feel that it's not the case anymore in pauper, because TC kills so many different rogue decks that T1.5 are decks playing against TC and T1 decks are decks playing TC, with all the other decks sitting somewhere at T2.5.
It's just my opinion.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Every deck playing blue IS hurting diversity IMO. Decks are still different, but we get to see 1 Island with 6-8 fetch lands and 2-4 Cruise in every deck still. How isn't that format warping when people playing in DE are maindecking Reliv of Progenitus? Except for the occasion Cycling and Tortured Existence deck, Relic has only one mission: punish TC players.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Especially for pauper.
People are now playing Thought Scour targetting themselves. I saw this in Modern too.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
i do play and advocate using it in affinity as 2 in 75 (the second one goes in when facing grindy matchups).
the card is too good. if you are playing blue, you need to run it to keep up; and if you can afford some lands coming into play tapped, fetchlands are enough fuel.
i hope wizards shows the same wisdom they had when banning invigorate and the storm cards: a card that warps lists in order to accomodate it needs to be banned almost by definition.
They now need to ban TC but I'm not sure we will see this Monday, it might take more time. I'm not sure about Cloud of Faerie, MBC is already really strong too.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
To be fair that card has been previously used in a similar fashion. Back when it was in standard I saw it used targeting it's controller in order to get bigger buffs on Runechanter's Pike. Granted this is not as crazy as TC, but people have historically milled themselves for benefit, just not for an Ancestral Recall in modern/legacy/every format under the sun.
to be honest, i don't recall this much uproar against a single card since cloudpost. the fact that people are moaning about it in almost every format but standard, is definitely a plus.
i really wish snap gone, even more than cloud of faeries.
How do you expect the format to raise its power-level when you print with consistency broken cards in the same color year after year? How can the rest of the format adapt to Ancestral Recall, a card banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage? Don't tell me it's not the same thing. The only difference is that you don't have Force of Will to counter it. Or that every Vintage deck also plays Recall to match it.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I agree that Aura and Green Stompy don't play TC, bu these decks were there before TC. TC is slower.
You can see the decks I'm playing in my sig, and yeah, the only way to win is to win before TC gets casted or by playing hate cards. Stompy wins before, Aura too. Mono-white often wins before too, at least the token version I'm playing. No need for Guardians. I have Pyroblasts in my red decks. Blue has Hydroblasts.
Since you are talking about Pod and Modern... well yeah, Pod is completely dominating, there is thread in the Modern forums showing how Pod is more than ~25% of the winning meta, and that's why I haven't been playing this format the 2 last years. Noting has changed since, except that Pod is even better now than it was.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Also, more people need to netdeck muuchan's tortured existence build.
The deck used to be really good. That was before TC and Relic was maindecked. I loved playing that deck. It's pretty good against TC though, since they don't play Relic and they can't overcome the card advantage generated by madness dudes that basically 3-for-1 with their ETB and the infinite life you get with Brownscale.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
It mentions applications online, so I imagine that if there were any updates to the Pauper banlist, it would have been announced at the same time.
Is Treasure Cruise here to stay?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Glimmerpost was printed in 2010, and Glistener Elf in 2011, and the bans of their decks were in 2013, so 2-3 years apparently.
I'm a little bit stubborn, I know.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.