I knew I had to try it. I've seen similar concepts before, but never with Nylea's Presence to help out. Here are my notes from testing.
Playstyle
I mean, it's Zoo - you play a little slower than Stompy/Sligh, and in exchange go over the top of them with bigger creatures, making up for your slower start with better damage. It's the absolute bottom end of midrange, less about 2-for-1s and more about paying a little extra for better stuff. It plays a lot like Affinity.
Nylea's Presence
NP is the main cog in this deck. You can live without it, but having it available in a timely fashion can make your Domain spells play very aggressively. Note that it curves nicely after Wild Nacatl, and before Matca Rioters.
Wild Nacatl is a little less exciting, falling victim to most red removal, but Matca Rioters and their 5 toughness are much harder to get rid of. Tribal Flames is something most decks just aren't ready for - being able to burn off a Fangren Marauder with a single card, and resume high-numbers beatdown afterward, is pretty excellent.
The original list also ran Aura Gnarlid, which I didn't get at first; but, with all the cantripping land auras and Rancors floating around, he and his evasion ability are probably better late in the game than Matca Rioters.
Fetches
Fetches are rough on your tempo, but I think the full 8x is the right call. We have to make up for it by ensuring our behind-the-curve plays still pressure the opponent effectively. I would consider pulling in some Naya Panorama or Bant Panorama to help out with the tempo, by moving the hit to later in one's curve.
Colors
The original build conspicuously lacked the singleton Swamp one might expect, and also didn't run any spells at all. I think both of these things are mistakes. 8x cantripping any-color fixers puts us on whatever mana we need pretty reliably, and being able to get Domain 5 with no Nylea's Presence is frequently relevant.
Other Creatures
2x Qasali Pridemage is about right. They make one's fatties punch harder, and maindeck artifact/enchantment hate is good business.
4x Squadron Hawk is another solid call. They carry Rancor, they fight attrition in the hand and on the board.
4x Kor Skyfisher is a neat twist. The main thing you bounce are your land auras, which all cantrip! This works about as well as it does in the Wellspring deck, but isn't really the focal point of the deck, and you can certainly bounce other stuff.
2x Young Wolf, I have to assume, is looking for a home as another 1-drop with relevant rules text, fighting attrition like Squadron Hawk does. I've actually replaced these straight across with Mogg War Marshal, which I like better. Given the choice, I'd rather fetch on turn 1 and cast on turn 2, since the offensive pressure from T1 Young Wolf is so limited and unlikely to be backed up quickly.
Other Spells
Everyone knows Brainstorm is a common, and everyone wants to combo Brainstorm with fetchlands for extra Legacy goodfeels. Kimikiri has been working on a :symwu:Control list I rather like, but this deck is actually well positioned to Brainstorm as well. We have the 8x fetchlands, plus Squadron Hawk. Note also that you can search for a card you know you don't have, if you want the shuffle effect to go with your Brainstorm. 3x is probably plenty, though - getting two in your hand at once is a bit lame.
Rancor is an obvious addition to make our huge fatties harder to block. As a bonus, it cranks up Aura Gnarlid. As is universally the case, 3 is the max.
Staggershock is an awesome card and I'd love to board some in against swarm decks, but I don't really like them maindeck, because they're kind of lame as burn-to-dome. I'd much rather have my maindeck be a streamlined beatdown machine.
Changes
I've mentioned some things above, but here's my version of the maindeck:
Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
It looks like a fun deck. It has a lot of seemingly powerful cards that just haven't found a home yet in pauper. Have you played it enough to get a feel for the matchups? What is it favored against and what does it have trouble with, etc.
I haven't played it more than a few afternoons, but what I'm getting so far:
Life-gain control strategies are greatly weakened by the level of beatdown we can provide.
Red Removal control decks, i.e. RUGTron, are surprisingly easy. Their removal doesn't work half the time, and your removal can kill Fangren Marauder. Rancor is gorgeous against Ulamog's Crusher.
Black Removal control decks are harder. All the control variants I've fought have eventually fallen to attrition - we can just make way more credible threats than they have removal. I have yet to play against a proper Gary control deck - I expect that to be much worse. Discard hurts us pretty bad, since our individual cards are so strong and we have basically no recursion. Unearth might be some hot sideboard tech.
Against any deck that can get onto its front foot against us, we want to pull in our good removal and go overtop of them, in the traditional way. Most fast decks are vulnerable to Staggershock and/or Electrickery, and some of them are vulnerable to Devour Flesh. For Affinity, of course, we have Gorilla Shaman and Ancient Grudge, and then Tribal Flames is solid removal against their 4/4s, and forces a 2-for-1 if they want to save their Atog.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
So I randomly happened upon nathanp01 in the practice room... where he was playing the mirror match, and not against me. I don't think he realized anybody was paying attention to his deck - it seems to be spreading very fast. I look forward to seeing SCG report on it in two weeks.
I got to talk to him a bit after the match, after he read my critique of the deck above. I don't want to copy out the whole convo log, so here's a summary of the key points:
Staggershock is a metagame call. It has good legs against Delver, as it's almost guaranteed to trade 2-for-1 if it sticks, and it's very hard to Spellstutter. It's decent at keeping MBC from accumulating devotion, and it's reasonable against Affinity - either for busting Frogmites, or pressuring Atog at awkward times.
My own testing showed Devour Flesh to be weak - we don't have enough removal to get it to stick when it's important. Snuff Out, however, could really flip some tables unexpectedly. It also gives us a little more incentive to run a Swamp.
Unearth might be relevant, since our entire creature base fits inside of it. Needing to get black mana for it is awkward.
Panoramas are probably unnecessary.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
I played in an 8 man and a pre with this, my only loses were to delver and burn. Delver just feels like a completely abysmal matchup. Its very easy for them to just counter all your threats and beat down with 1/1's. A few games I was able to stabilize and comeback, but I was usually at <5 life by that point and trying to figure out how to deal with flyers. The burn matchup was not that good either, I feel like my opponent just drew well. I managed to get armadillo cloak on a 3/3 rioters and swing with it, but he killed it with a martyr of ashes and still took the game.
The best part though was when I beat reality acid round 1 and my opponent told me to have fun going 1-5 with my 5 color pile.
Some number of panoramas would feel good. The CITP lands make for a lot of awkward sequencing, but color wise the manabase is incredibly solid. I don't think I ever really had a problem getting the right mana.
I do want to consider some number of faithless looting, 1 or 2. Just as a way to pitch some dead cards in the late game. I really found myself wanting some kind of card advantage and or card quality engine in a lot of games.
Skyfisher feels clunky in this deck. I also play wellspring, but over there you have a bunch of one drop removal. In wellspring you can set up some huge big sequence plays. Here it just felt clunky, a lot of our deck costs 2 or 3 and its not easy to play skyfisher and still get some value out of the turn.
Thinking of cutting for 2 mulldrifter and 2 of something else.
I played in an 8 man and a pre with this, my only loses were to delver and burn. Delver just feels like a completely abysmal matchup. Its very easy for them to just counter all your threats and beat down with 1/1's. A few games I was able to stabilize and comeback, but I was usually at <5 life by that point and trying to figure out how to deal with flyers.
Delver is a complicated topic. Perhaps because they run 25% of the metagame, there's a lot of variety in composition of decks and in quality of pilots that can make the matchup feel very different from game to game.
That said, Delver is a good reason to up your Pyroblast count. Unearth also works well against counterspells, but it's kind of a color-strain to get it online quickly. The main thing, overall, is that you can't keep them from trading 1-for-1 with you, so you instead have to make them trade for the wrong card.
The burn matchup was not that good either, I feel like my opponent just drew well. I managed to get armadillo cloak on a 3/3 rioters and swing with it, but he killed it with a martyr of ashes and still took the game.
Burn has been a bad matchup in my testing. I'm currently boarding 2 Armadillo Cloak, but there are other answers to stretching your life total - maybe Aven Riftwatcher or Lone Missionary? I think you'd want to combine these approaches, with some fast infusions early and then a fatty with a Cloak when he runs out of gas. Maybe Renewed Faith?
The best part though was when I beat reality acid round 1 and my opponent told me to have fun going 1-5 with my 5 color pile.
Can you talk more about this matchup? I feel like it would be bad, due to their huge fat blockers and ability to actually kill our creatures, but maybe they're just too slow.
I will never, ever believe that Reality Acid is a real deck, unless they get a new card that makes them function reliably. Maybe that enchantment-bouncing serpent in BNG will break through for them?
I do want to consider some number of faithless looting, 1 or 2. Just as a way to pitch some dead cards in the late game. I really found myself wanting some kind of card advantage and or card quality engine in a lot of games.
You're running Brainstorm, right? I've stolen a few games with a timely Brainstorm, sometimes even without a shuffle effect available. I've considered adding Worldly Counsel, but I'm not sure where I'd put it.
Skyfisher feels clunky in this deck. I also play wellspring, but over there you have a bunch of one drop removal. In wellspring you can set up some huge big sequence plays. Here it just felt clunky, a lot of our deck costs 2 or 3 and its not easy to play skyfisher and still get some value out of the turn.
Thinking of cutting for 2 mulldrifter and 2 of something else.
Unrelated to anything you said, I've happened to spectate matches with a couple of random people who picked up the same 75 to play with. The one mistake I seem them make most commonly is not playing aggressively enough. Unless you're against a proper fast combo deck like Dragonaut, you need to stay on the front foot, attacking more than blocking and holding your Tribal Flames for a kill-shot.
Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
Has anyone considered Commune with the Gods in this deck? Seems like it might work decently.
Edit: Oh, wait. Just read the card again. Cards being put into the graveyard might not be what we want here. Oh well, might test it out when I log in next.
I guess that makes a modicum of sense. The basic problem with CoP Red is that it can't hard-stop the burn player; you have to hold up as much mana as he has cards, minus for each three points of life you have, approximately. You still need to be actively killing the guy or you're just going to be in a staring contest waiting for him to overrun you.
You could definitely get use out of it if you could get a x/4 or better online and just try to ride it out, but I'm not sure how easy that is.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
I had a few matches against MBC today. They did not go well. They have main deck answers to our card advantage engine in Cuombajj Witches and Crypt Rats and no shortage of ways to kill big vanilla fatties. Even if we can keep up with them on cards, the late game greatly favors them since all they need is a couple Corrupts to win. Nathanp01 played with Obsidian Acolytes in the sideboard and I can see why.
Other than that I've liked playing the deck. I'm a fan of casting big fat creatures and bashing my opponent with them. My main complaint is that, in the end, that's all we're doing. We have good matchups against other creature decks because our card quality is better on average but not against decks that are trying to win with through other angles. (which is quite a lot of pauper decks).
It's awesome to see all the excitement and brainstorming about the deck going on here. Part of me is sad that the secret is now out, but part of me is eager to see what new ideas that the community will come up with. The popularity of the deck has been really flattering, yet at the same time I'm concerned about the general public finding out about how the deck works and how to play against it. But that's probably a misguided concern, since REAL Magic players don't spend time worrying about rogue decks or MTG Salvation threads for madmen like us, right?
I would like to draw attention to something that you have probably already noticed about the deck, the huge number of options available. It's truly staggering. While I feel like I have found a fairly tight list in my version, there are likely dozens of similar lists that operate on the same foundation or, and even more ways to slightly change the current list without shifting the strategy. The basis of the domain idea is to play a fetch-heavy manabase with nylea's presence to allow access to incredibly powerful cards like Nacatl and Tribal Flames, while at the same time allowing access the most powerful cards of every color. Really the core of that idea is the 4 nacatls, the 4 presences, some number of tribal flames, and the manabase to some extent, but from then on the options really become mostly open-ended. Things like skyfisher and the three-drops are obviously very powerful and synergistic, but are by no means set in stone, as the basis provides so many options that I could conceive of radically different lists being made without them. That Being said, I think I that my PE list is approaching the maximization of one permutation of the idea. Skyfisher and Aura Gnarlid and just about too powerful to pass up in a deck playing Abundant Growth. Brainstorm serves both as powerful answer to flood, which has been a problem with the deck considering how much it relies on lands, and sets up a potentially crazy combo with Squadron Hawk. The hawks are also just a really effective threat on their own, and are great in the current metagame. But with ALL the commons available in all five colors, I'm sure that there are many other lists that maximize powerlevel of it's individual cards while at the same time exploiting internal synergies, in a similar way that my PE list does. It's possible that it could be worth it make some major changes to be more aggro or control oriented. It's also possible that there are other individual cards and synergies that can't really fit into the deck as-is, but would be effective if it were changed significantly. The options are endless.
A big reason that love this deck so much is that it's sideboard is absurd. It has really potent options against any deck in the format, and can easily be shifted to fight the current metagame. Board slots are incredibly competitive, though. There are two major dilemas for the board: Flexability vs. Effectiveness and Bad matchups vs. Popular matchups. As was stated already in the board, burn isn't a good matchup. We could put a card like grazing gladeheart in our board and have it be really effective in that matchup, but pretty much useless everywhere else. Or we could have a card like Armadillo Cloak for burn, which is very effective at putting away racier matchups against other aggressive deck, but risk our creature being bolted in response. And if we DO put some grazing gladehearts in our board, if we never see burn in a tournament the slots are wasted. Conversely, we could devote all our slots to delver, mono-black, and Affinity, yet lose to one of our bad matchups without being able to fight back in a meaningful way. Another thing to note is that you want to coincide the number of cards to bring in against matchups with the number of cards that you want to bring out, otherwise you end up either keeping bad cards in your deck or bringing good cards out of the deck in favor of slightly better ones.
Whenever I make a new deck I like to compile a list of cards that I think could potentially potentially fit in the deck or some variation of it. I figure that you guys might appreciate it. As you can see, some of these cards have been worked into the deck already, yet there are many more that remain untested.
I tried Grazing Gladehart in the board instead of Armadillo Cloak. In a test game I played it turn four, followed by a sac land for four life. The opp then killed it, thus indirectly gaining me three more life. Armadillo Cloak has the disadvantage, that the Burn player usually holds up some instant kill, so it is only safe to play Cloak on a 5/5 Rioters or Gnarlid. All our other creatures have a toughness of three or less.
Centaur Healer is another possibility for more or less the same slot. (and weirdly not on nathanp's very long list).
I will never, ever believe that Reality Acid is a real deck, unless they get a new card that makes them function reliably. Maybe that enchantment-bouncing serpent in BNG will break through for them? Tribal Flames for a kill-shot.
Game 1 I was able to get his only reality acid with a pridemage, he still got a 2 for one, but i was able to overrun him big beaters while he attempted to clog the board with sea gate oracles and wall of omens.
Game 2 was a major grind fest, I did get 2 reality acids with ray of revelation, but he eventually took the game.
Game 3 I went abundant growth > Presence, Growth > Aura Gnarlid > Rancor, Rancor. He didn't even let me swing before he went on his rant about my "5 color pile".
I don't think the matchup is good, I think I just got lucky and caught my opponent off guard.
Game 3 I went abundant growth > Presence, Growth > Aura Gnarlid > Rancor, Rancor. He didn't even let me swing before he went on his rant about my "5 color pile".
I don't think the matchup is good, I think I just got lucky and caught my opponent off guard.
Lol, coming from the guy playing Reality Acid. It wasn't too long ago that that was the new janky deck everyone was trying out.
nathanp01, thanks for entering the discussion. I will think about all the options you have provided in your list!
Thanks to LordSaturn for both directing me to this thread and for the suggestion of unearth. I've been playing two in a more aggressive variation of the list and have been really pleased with them so far. The fact that it cycles really mitigates the mana problems. It's a great tempo play early, and as a topdeck it lets you pick the best creature in your yard.
Although, e.g, Delver, MBC and Affinity are popular decks, there are a lot of players (me included) that have not figured out how to always play correctly against those decks. With 5-color Zoo and its bazillion card options this seems even harder. You shouldn't be concerned about that
I'm sure you're right, yet the more your opponents know about your list the worse. When I see an opponent with a nonstandard deck I like to search for a decklist to see what cards I can expect. Before, that wasn't possible for domain, but now it is. Still, this really isn't such a big deal, and I have to imagine that it's still an unknown quantity to most competitive players.
Reusable life gain is valuable against more than the Burn strategy, because it is a tempo play. Against aggressive decks like Stompy and White Weenie it buys you time to put your bigger creatures into play. Against Delver it can take back the tempo they gained so you can race them. It is only useless against control decks and slow midrange decks like BorosKitty or AzoriusKitty. Since the meta is creature heavy and instant creature kill/bounce is plentiful, I don't like Armadillo Cloak at the moment.
So my anecdote about gladeheart as mostly a rhetorical way to illustrate the dilemma between power and flexibility. For instance, a card like gorilla shaman is absurd against affinity, but not really viable in any other matchup. In the gorilla's case, I think sheer powerlevel outweighs the lack of flexability, but it's something to consider when deciding what cards go into the board. I think that the main problem with gladeheart, and centaur healer for that matter, is that it's directly competing with the deck's 3 drops. Having never actually played a game with gladeheart it is hard to say for certain, but I imagine that it be quite slow and unimpactful for most of the matchups you mentioned. Gaining 4 life could give you a bit more time against aggressive decks, but for the most part just having a large dude like matca or gnarlid could save a similar amound of time by blocking effectively or by speeding up your clock. Also, if they have a removal spell they could kill gladeheart in response to the sac so that you only gain 2 life. The advantage that armadillo has is that in addition to turning the enchanted dude into an amazing threat on it's own, it also gains you a ton of life. Removal is an issue, but if you play around it I don't think it is as big of an issue as you might suggest. The types of decks that you would bring cloak in against are not the types of decks to have creature removal, so the only thing that you really need to worry about is damage removal. Generally, things like lightning bolt can be played around fairly easily by being patient with it. If they are tapped out or if your creature has more than 3 toughness enchanting is fairly safe, and if not it is likely better to wait until it becomes safe. After being enchanted, the creature will not be vulnerable to damage anymore, since the 2 extra toughness almost certainly will put it over the top. In matchups like that, 1 hit is really all you need anyway, since it will both gain you a ton of life and put an enormous threat on the board. Creatures in this deck are very large on their own, so the first hit often gains upward of six life while the trample lets your creature directly pressure their life total.
Another thing that I want to address is people talking about the delver matchup So until recently I have never had a problem with delver. Squadron Hawk is both an incredible threat to play against them and very easy to sneak through counters at 2 mana. Turn 2 squad on the play is unstoppable. Similarly, they have a lot of trouble dealing with a 3/3, so playing a turn 1 nacatl gives them no room to interact and an immediate clock. Skyfisher blocks about their whole team like a champ, while drawing you a card at the same time. Resolving a 3 drop can be difficult, but if you do they just take over the game. Rancor is very easy to resolve at one mana and it can either put a ton of pressure on them or let all your creatures trade up with theirs. Out of the board you have not only pyroblast and electrictickery, but a pair of grudges for their golems and bone splitters. I rarely lose against them.
This is what I though until recently. I played in an event over the weekend where all my loses were against delver, and I got very few games against them. They won both by tempoing me early and by grinding me late game. It may be that this was just variance, but it has me concerned about the delver matchup. Since, I have added shyshroud archer to the board, yet I have yet to see it in action. I would imagine it to be an incredible threat against them and one very easy to resolve at it's mana cost. In addition to outright killing 8 cards in their deck, it also shrinks delvers so that they can be blocked by both skyfisher and hawk effectively. The downside of this switch is that electrickery had a lot of utility against other matchups like auras and tokens, which is now gone.
I have also made a few changes to the main that will hopefully make the delver matchup a bit better. I have added a few bolts, unearth(thanksSaturn), and the constructed staple Opaline Bracers. The idea is that in the long game it turns every one of your hawks and similar into 5/5s, but it might turn out to be too hard to resolve. It could also be tech against mono-black instead of or in addition to acolytes. Only time will tell. And testing.
Lol, coming from the guy playing Reality Acid. It wasn't too long ago that that was the new janky deck everyone was trying out.
There was also a point where he called my cards bad, yes wild nacatyl, brainstorm, and tribal flames are "bad cards", they definitely haven't proven themselves to be multi format all stars, and are much worse than the 10th power of reality acid.
Thats one reason I really like this deck, you get to play legacy staples at full power, its pretty awesome.
Mind posting your list and SB plan?
I think my biggest problem with delver is a SB plan, I don't really want to take anything out. Maybe the 3 drops just to play around counters better I guess.
I was bringing it against any deck I thought would either be a race, or where I would need to stabilize. It came in handy against delver, I'm not sure if I played against any other creature based strategies.
Its a great way to make a guy big enough they just can't deal with it, and its also a good way to be able to apply some pressure while building up defenses int he form of padding life.
Against Delver, the first thing I always pull out is Tribal Flames - trying to stick a burn spell against them is a huge hassle, and not nearly as valuable as sticking a permament.
If I was going to board against Burn specifically, I think I'd want Lone Missionary. His life-gain and stats are comparable to Grazing Gladehart, but also he doesn't further crowd the already-crowded 3-slot. You can also squeeze extra value out of him and Kor Skyfisher.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
I feel like Delver is a pretty even matchup that comes down to draws and player skill. The fact that most of our spells cost one or two mana gives us a lot of choices in how to bate counterspells and resolve our good stuff. It's interesting that nathanp01 says he likes Staggershock in this matchup because it costs three mana and (usually) can't be Spellstuttered. I don't like Staggershock because it costs three mana and is hard to get past a Counterspell :). I'd rather have a Lightning Bolt most of the time because it's easier to find a window to cast it. For example, Turn 1 Delver followed by turn 2 Cloud of Faeries gives you a chance to Bolt the Delver. If you wait til turn 3 to cast Staggershock, it's probably not going to resolve. If you wait til turn 5 when you can bate a counterspell then cast Staggershock, you're practically dead already. I'm typically not trying to win an attrition war with Delver, just make sure I don't lose to a turn 2 Insectile Abberation then stick a big dude. Lightning Bolt is also a more realistic psuedo-counter to Spellstutter than Staggershock, since you'll almost never be able to hold up three mana while casting a spell. It might just come down to personal play style but I like Bolt over Staggershock here.
Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
Also the first time piloting the deck aside from 2 practice games. Seeing the deck called "GRUW" makes me think we need to splash unearth just so the name has the full impact. Although I guess "Grow" works too since you are growing your creatures with domain and enchantments.
Mezzel and _Tezzeret were the 2 delver decks I took loses too, and I think seijim2 might have been the burn deck. I also beat Xochipilli in round 1.
Not sure how that elves matchup is, he got a really fast combo game 1, but game 2 and 3 I had elecktrickery in my opening 7.
I'm also planning on streaming this deck when I can, probably doing another pre on saturday. http://www.twitch.tv/esporks
4 Terramorphic Expanse
9 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Young Wolf
4 Kor Skyfisher
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Squadron Hawk
1 Aura Gnarlid
3 Matca Rioters
4 Tribal Flames
4 Abundant Growth
4 Nylea's Presence
3 Brainstorm
3 Rancor
2 Staggershock
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Armadillo Cloak
2 Electrickery
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Hydroblast
3 Obsidian Acolyte
2 Pyroblast
2 Ray of Revelation
I knew I had to try it. I've seen similar concepts before, but never with Nylea's Presence to help out. Here are my notes from testing.
Playstyle
I mean, it's Zoo - you play a little slower than Stompy/Sligh, and in exchange go over the top of them with bigger creatures, making up for your slower start with better damage. It's the absolute bottom end of midrange, less about 2-for-1s and more about paying a little extra for better stuff. It plays a lot like Affinity.
Nylea's Presence
NP is the main cog in this deck. You can live without it, but having it available in a timely fashion can make your Domain spells play very aggressively. Note that it curves nicely after Wild Nacatl, and before Matca Rioters.
Payload
Your big payoff for spreading out your Domain in a timely fashion is getting to use Wild Nacatl, Matca Rioters, and Tribal Flames.
Wild Nacatl is a little less exciting, falling victim to most red removal, but Matca Rioters and their 5 toughness are much harder to get rid of. Tribal Flames is something most decks just aren't ready for - being able to burn off a Fangren Marauder with a single card, and resume high-numbers beatdown afterward, is pretty excellent.
The original list also ran Aura Gnarlid, which I didn't get at first; but, with all the cantripping land auras and Rancors floating around, he and his evasion ability are probably better late in the game than Matca Rioters.
Fetches
Fetches are rough on your tempo, but I think the full 8x is the right call. We have to make up for it by ensuring our behind-the-curve plays still pressure the opponent effectively. I would consider pulling in some Naya Panorama or Bant Panorama to help out with the tempo, by moving the hit to later in one's curve.
Colors
The original build conspicuously lacked the singleton Swamp one might expect, and also didn't run any spells at all. I think both of these things are mistakes. 8x cantripping any-color fixers puts us on whatever mana we need pretty reliably, and being able to get Domain 5 with no Nylea's Presence is frequently relevant.
Other Creatures
2x Qasali Pridemage is about right. They make one's fatties punch harder, and maindeck artifact/enchantment hate is good business.
4x Squadron Hawk is another solid call. They carry Rancor, they fight attrition in the hand and on the board.
4x Kor Skyfisher is a neat twist. The main thing you bounce are your land auras, which all cantrip! This works about as well as it does in the Wellspring deck, but isn't really the focal point of the deck, and you can certainly bounce other stuff.
2x Young Wolf, I have to assume, is looking for a home as another 1-drop with relevant rules text, fighting attrition like Squadron Hawk does. I've actually replaced these straight across with Mogg War Marshal, which I like better. Given the choice, I'd rather fetch on turn 1 and cast on turn 2, since the offensive pressure from T1 Young Wolf is so limited and unlikely to be backed up quickly.
Other Spells
Everyone knows Brainstorm is a common, and everyone wants to combo Brainstorm with fetchlands for extra Legacy goodfeels. Kimikiri has been working on a :symwu:Control list I rather like, but this deck is actually well positioned to Brainstorm as well. We have the 8x fetchlands, plus Squadron Hawk. Note also that you can search for a card you know you don't have, if you want the shuffle effect to go with your Brainstorm. 3x is probably plenty, though - getting two in your hand at once is a bit lame.
Rancor is an obvious addition to make our huge fatties harder to block. As a bonus, it cranks up Aura Gnarlid. As is universally the case, 3 is the max.
Staggershock is an awesome card and I'd love to board some in against swarm decks, but I don't really like them maindeck, because they're kind of lame as burn-to-dome. I'd much rather have my maindeck be a streamlined beatdown machine.
Changes
I've mentioned some things above, but here's my version of the maindeck:
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Matca Rioters
3 Aura Gnarlid
4 Tribal Flames
3 Rancor
Attrition
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Kor Skyfisher
2 Mogg War Marshal
Utility
3 Brainstorm
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Abundant Growth
4 Nylea's Presence
Land
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Evolving Wilds
8 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Electrickery
3 Staggershock
4 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Armadillo Cloak
Still working on the sideboard - I think I want to squeeze in some Devour Flesh. Has anyone else played with this?
Life-gain control strategies are greatly weakened by the level of beatdown we can provide.
Red Removal control decks, i.e. RUGTron, are surprisingly easy. Their removal doesn't work half the time, and your removal can kill Fangren Marauder. Rancor is gorgeous against Ulamog's Crusher.
Black Removal control decks are harder. All the control variants I've fought have eventually fallen to attrition - we can just make way more credible threats than they have removal. I have yet to play against a proper Gary control deck - I expect that to be much worse. Discard hurts us pretty bad, since our individual cards are so strong and we have basically no recursion. Unearth might be some hot sideboard tech.
Against any deck that can get onto its front foot against us, we want to pull in our good removal and go overtop of them, in the traditional way. Most fast decks are vulnerable to Staggershock and/or Electrickery, and some of them are vulnerable to Devour Flesh. For Affinity, of course, we have Gorilla Shaman and Ancient Grudge, and then Tribal Flames is solid removal against their 4/4s, and forces a 2-for-1 if they want to save their Atog.
I got to talk to him a bit after the match, after he read my critique of the deck above. I don't want to copy out the whole convo log, so here's a summary of the key points:
The best part though was when I beat reality acid round 1 and my opponent told me to have fun going 1-5 with my 5 color pile.
Some number of panoramas would feel good. The CITP lands make for a lot of awkward sequencing, but color wise the manabase is incredibly solid. I don't think I ever really had a problem getting the right mana.
I do want to consider some number of faithless looting, 1 or 2. Just as a way to pitch some dead cards in the late game. I really found myself wanting some kind of card advantage and or card quality engine in a lot of games.
Skyfisher feels clunky in this deck. I also play wellspring, but over there you have a bunch of one drop removal. In wellspring you can set up some huge big sequence plays. Here it just felt clunky, a lot of our deck costs 2 or 3 and its not easy to play skyfisher and still get some value out of the turn.
Thinking of cutting for 2 mulldrifter and 2 of something else.
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
Delver is a complicated topic. Perhaps because they run 25% of the metagame, there's a lot of variety in composition of decks and in quality of pilots that can make the matchup feel very different from game to game.
That said, Delver is a good reason to up your Pyroblast count. Unearth also works well against counterspells, but it's kind of a color-strain to get it online quickly. The main thing, overall, is that you can't keep them from trading 1-for-1 with you, so you instead have to make them trade for the wrong card.
Burn has been a bad matchup in my testing. I'm currently boarding 2 Armadillo Cloak, but there are other answers to stretching your life total - maybe Aven Riftwatcher or Lone Missionary? I think you'd want to combine these approaches, with some fast infusions early and then a fatty with a Cloak when he runs out of gas. Maybe Renewed Faith?
Can you talk more about this matchup? I feel like it would be bad, due to their huge fat blockers and ability to actually kill our creatures, but maybe they're just too slow.
I will never, ever believe that Reality Acid is a real deck, unless they get a new card that makes them function reliably. Maybe that enchantment-bouncing serpent in BNG will break through for them?
You're running Brainstorm, right? I've stolen a few games with a timely Brainstorm, sometimes even without a shuffle effect available. I've considered adding Worldly Counsel, but I'm not sure where I'd put it.
I've had a lot of success with Kor Skyfisher, but Mulldrifter sounds very relevant, too.
Unrelated to anything you said, I've happened to spectate matches with a couple of random people who picked up the same 75 to play with. The one mistake I seem them make most commonly is not playing aggressively enough. Unless you're against a proper fast combo deck like Dragonaut, you need to stay on the front foot, attacking more than blocking and holding your Tribal Flames for a kill-shot.
Edit: Oh, wait. Just read the card again. Cards being put into the graveyard might not be what we want here. Oh well, might test it out when I log in next.
edit: huh, kind of a lame post to be #1,000. Oh well.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
You could definitely get use out of it if you could get a x/4 or better online and just try to ride it out, but I'm not sure how easy that is.
Other than that I've liked playing the deck. I'm a fan of casting big fat creatures and bashing my opponent with them. My main complaint is that, in the end, that's all we're doing. We have good matchups against other creature decks because our card quality is better on average but not against decks that are trying to win with through other angles. (which is quite a lot of pauper decks).
I would like to draw attention to something that you have probably already noticed about the deck, the huge number of options available. It's truly staggering. While I feel like I have found a fairly tight list in my version, there are likely dozens of similar lists that operate on the same foundation or, and even more ways to slightly change the current list without shifting the strategy. The basis of the domain idea is to play a fetch-heavy manabase with nylea's presence to allow access to incredibly powerful cards like Nacatl and Tribal Flames, while at the same time allowing access the most powerful cards of every color. Really the core of that idea is the 4 nacatls, the 4 presences, some number of tribal flames, and the manabase to some extent, but from then on the options really become mostly open-ended. Things like skyfisher and the three-drops are obviously very powerful and synergistic, but are by no means set in stone, as the basis provides so many options that I could conceive of radically different lists being made without them. That Being said, I think I that my PE list is approaching the maximization of one permutation of the idea. Skyfisher and Aura Gnarlid and just about too powerful to pass up in a deck playing Abundant Growth. Brainstorm serves both as powerful answer to flood, which has been a problem with the deck considering how much it relies on lands, and sets up a potentially crazy combo with Squadron Hawk. The hawks are also just a really effective threat on their own, and are great in the current metagame. But with ALL the commons available in all five colors, I'm sure that there are many other lists that maximize powerlevel of it's individual cards while at the same time exploiting internal synergies, in a similar way that my PE list does. It's possible that it could be worth it make some major changes to be more aggro or control oriented. It's also possible that there are other individual cards and synergies that can't really fit into the deck as-is, but would be effective if it were changed significantly. The options are endless.
A big reason that love this deck so much is that it's sideboard is absurd. It has really potent options against any deck in the format, and can easily be shifted to fight the current metagame. Board slots are incredibly competitive, though. There are two major dilemas for the board: Flexability vs. Effectiveness and Bad matchups vs. Popular matchups. As was stated already in the board, burn isn't a good matchup. We could put a card like grazing gladeheart in our board and have it be really effective in that matchup, but pretty much useless everywhere else. Or we could have a card like Armadillo Cloak for burn, which is very effective at putting away racier matchups against other aggressive deck, but risk our creature being bolted in response. And if we DO put some grazing gladehearts in our board, if we never see burn in a tournament the slots are wasted. Conversely, we could devote all our slots to delver, mono-black, and Affinity, yet lose to one of our bad matchups without being able to fight back in a meaningful way. Another thing to note is that you want to coincide the number of cards to bring in against matchups with the number of cards that you want to bring out, otherwise you end up either keeping bad cards in your deck or bringing good cards out of the deck in favor of slightly better ones.
Whenever I make a new deck I like to compile a list of cards that I think could potentially potentially fit in the deck or some variation of it. I figure that you guys might appreciate it. As you can see, some of these cards have been worked into the deck already, yet there are many more that remain untested.
Spells:
Creatures:
The (Shard Name) (Cool Sounding Word)Blade Cycle
ex. Jund Hackblade
Pump:
Anti-Flood:
Auras:
Potential Sideboard:
Circles of Protection
Some of these cards could maybe fit in the current list, some might need some major changes to work, but I'm sure there's a deck in here somewhere.
Centaur Healer is another possibility for more or less the same slot. (and weirdly not on nathanp's very long list).
Game 1 I was able to get his only reality acid with a pridemage, he still got a 2 for one, but i was able to overrun him big beaters while he attempted to clog the board with sea gate oracles and wall of omens.
Game 2 was a major grind fest, I did get 2 reality acids with ray of revelation, but he eventually took the game.
Game 3 I went abundant growth > Presence, Growth > Aura Gnarlid > Rancor, Rancor. He didn't even let me swing before he went on his rant about my "5 color pile".
I don't think the matchup is good, I think I just got lucky and caught my opponent off guard.
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
Lol, coming from the guy playing Reality Acid. It wasn't too long ago that that was the new janky deck everyone was trying out.
Thanks to LordSaturn for both directing me to this thread and for the suggestion of unearth. I've been playing two in a more aggressive variation of the list and have been really pleased with them so far. The fact that it cycles really mitigates the mana problems. It's a great tempo play early, and as a topdeck it lets you pick the best creature in your yard.
I'm sure you're right, yet the more your opponents know about your list the worse. When I see an opponent with a nonstandard deck I like to search for a decklist to see what cards I can expect. Before, that wasn't possible for domain, but now it is. Still, this really isn't such a big deal, and I have to imagine that it's still an unknown quantity to most competitive players.
So my anecdote about gladeheart as mostly a rhetorical way to illustrate the dilemma between power and flexibility. For instance, a card like gorilla shaman is absurd against affinity, but not really viable in any other matchup. In the gorilla's case, I think sheer powerlevel outweighs the lack of flexability, but it's something to consider when deciding what cards go into the board. I think that the main problem with gladeheart, and centaur healer for that matter, is that it's directly competing with the deck's 3 drops. Having never actually played a game with gladeheart it is hard to say for certain, but I imagine that it be quite slow and unimpactful for most of the matchups you mentioned. Gaining 4 life could give you a bit more time against aggressive decks, but for the most part just having a large dude like matca or gnarlid could save a similar amound of time by blocking effectively or by speeding up your clock. Also, if they have a removal spell they could kill gladeheart in response to the sac so that you only gain 2 life. The advantage that armadillo has is that in addition to turning the enchanted dude into an amazing threat on it's own, it also gains you a ton of life. Removal is an issue, but if you play around it I don't think it is as big of an issue as you might suggest. The types of decks that you would bring cloak in against are not the types of decks to have creature removal, so the only thing that you really need to worry about is damage removal. Generally, things like lightning bolt can be played around fairly easily by being patient with it. If they are tapped out or if your creature has more than 3 toughness enchanting is fairly safe, and if not it is likely better to wait until it becomes safe. After being enchanted, the creature will not be vulnerable to damage anymore, since the 2 extra toughness almost certainly will put it over the top. In matchups like that, 1 hit is really all you need anyway, since it will both gain you a ton of life and put an enormous threat on the board. Creatures in this deck are very large on their own, so the first hit often gains upward of six life while the trample lets your creature directly pressure their life total.
Another thing that I want to address is people talking about the delver matchup So until recently I have never had a problem with delver. Squadron Hawk is both an incredible threat to play against them and very easy to sneak through counters at 2 mana. Turn 2 squad on the play is unstoppable. Similarly, they have a lot of trouble dealing with a 3/3, so playing a turn 1 nacatl gives them no room to interact and an immediate clock. Skyfisher blocks about their whole team like a champ, while drawing you a card at the same time. Resolving a 3 drop can be difficult, but if you do they just take over the game. Rancor is very easy to resolve at one mana and it can either put a ton of pressure on them or let all your creatures trade up with theirs. Out of the board you have not only pyroblast and electrictickery, but a pair of grudges for their golems and bone splitters. I rarely lose against them.
This is what I though until recently. I played in an event over the weekend where all my loses were against delver, and I got very few games against them. They won both by tempoing me early and by grinding me late game. It may be that this was just variance, but it has me concerned about the delver matchup. Since, I have added shyshroud archer to the board, yet I have yet to see it in action. I would imagine it to be an incredible threat against them and one very easy to resolve at it's mana cost. In addition to outright killing 8 cards in their deck, it also shrinks delvers so that they can be blocked by both skyfisher and hawk effectively. The downside of this switch is that electrickery had a lot of utility against other matchups like auras and tokens, which is now gone.
I have also made a few changes to the main that will hopefully make the delver matchup a bit better. I have added a few bolts, unearth(thanksSaturn), and the constructed staple Opaline Bracers. The idea is that in the long game it turns every one of your hawks and similar into 5/5s, but it might turn out to be too hard to resolve. It could also be tech against mono-black instead of or in addition to acolytes. Only time will tell. And testing.
There was also a point where he called my cards bad, yes wild nacatyl, brainstorm, and tribal flames are "bad cards", they definitely haven't proven themselves to be multi format all stars, and are much worse than the 10th power of reality acid.
Thats one reason I really like this deck, you get to play legacy staples at full power, its pretty awesome.
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
Mind posting your list and SB plan?
I think my biggest problem with delver is a SB plan, I don't really want to take anything out. Maybe the 3 drops just to play around counters better I guess.
6 etb fetches and 2 panoramas maybe. The deck can actually make use of colorless mana quite a bit, and they can still fetch color in a pinch.
I was bringing it against any deck I thought would either be a race, or where I would need to stabilize. It came in handy against delver, I'm not sure if I played against any other creature based strategies.
Its a great way to make a guy big enough they just can't deal with it, and its also a good way to be able to apply some pressure while building up defenses int he form of padding life.
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
If I was going to board against Burn specifically, I think I'd want Lone Missionary. His life-gain and stats are comparable to Grazing Gladehart, but also he doesn't further crowd the already-crowded 3-slot. You can also squeeze extra value out of him and Kor Skyfisher.
http://www.mtgo-stats.com/decks/93173
Looks like the same 75
Am I eFamous yet?
Also the first time piloting the deck aside from 2 practice games. Seeing the deck called "GRUW" makes me think we need to splash unearth just so the name has the full impact. Although I guess "Grow" works too since you are growing your creatures with domain and enchantments.
Mezzel and _Tezzeret were the 2 delver decks I took loses too, and I think seijim2 might have been the burn deck. I also beat Xochipilli in round 1.
Not sure how that elves matchup is, he got a really fast combo game 1, but game 2 and 3 I had elecktrickery in my opening 7.
I'm also planning on streaming this deck when I can, probably doing another pre on saturday. http://www.twitch.tv/esporks
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG